Animal Rights

heyimbren · November 2010

I'm curious to hear your opinions on this. We were debating this in my political theory class today and it was really, truly interesting.

Do you think animals have rights? (I'm using the term "rights" loosely here on purpose.)

An article I read was written from the point of view that animals may NOT have their own rights... but that it was still desirable to protect animals. We were mainly talking about things like religious animal sacrifice and slaughterhouses, along with other cultural traditions involving animals.

Do you think we need to protect animals from harm? Do you think we need to do this for their sake (the animals) or for our own sake (that it is beneficial to us to do so)?

I can also try to link the article if anyone is really curious. It's graphic as a warning.

bethsmiles · November 2010

I guess I don't think animals have rights, but I don't think that people should be allowed to torture them. I'm not a vegetarian and I don't have a problem with people killing animals for food. A lot of my friends are hunters and I have no moral/ethical problem with it.

Wrkn925 · November 2010

This is something I don't normally get on my soapbox about.

I had a coworker that got his dogs taken away for leaving them in the car. He had just left the vet. The vet told him to go to Wal-mart to get some medicine. He left the dogs in the car, windows cracked for about 15 minutes. Animal protection took his dogs and put them in the pound for 30 days, and wouldn't give them back until he pleaded guilty to cruelty. The dogs had kennel cough and sores on their legs from the pound when he got them back.

..and methheads here can get their kids back from CPS quicker than that.

I don't mistreat animals, and I don't believe it is acceptable to, I just feel like sometimes we have our priorities off.

ETA: I didn't really answer the question. I think animal rights are taken a little far sometimes, as in the story above.
When it comes to animals for food, I think they should be killed as humanely as possible.

I would like to think that we've moved past using animals for sacrifice as a society. However, I'm sure that where it is used, it is socially acceptable and not against laws.

heyimbren · November 2010

Beth, I think that's how I feel about it too. We were mainly discussing the cases of bullfighting and even animal sacrifice with Santeria. I know there are some things I definitely don't agree with, but I find it difficult to draw the line.

GreenPepperBurger · November 2010

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't feel that people should be persecuted for having sex with animals.

heyimbren · November 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_animal-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:1a9a5b71-0525-476b-9e19-9639a9cccd3ePost:ec5a53ca-94a6-4b10-8798-1aea21c220f8">Re: Animal Rights</a>:
[QUOTE]This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't feel that people should be persecuted for having sex with animals.
Posted by GreenPepperBurger[/QUOTE]

I'm dying to hear why! I'm not going to flame you or anything, I'm honestly curious.

GreenPepperBurger · November 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_animal-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:1a9a5b71-0525-476b-9e19-9639a9cccd3ePost:d271fb8f-3321-44e6-868a-d430ecdf6143">Re: Animal Rights</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Animal Rights : I'm dying to hear why! I'm not going to flame you or anything, I'm honestly curious.
Posted by heyimbren[/QUOTE]

It's not that I condone bestiality or anything and it's not something I would ever do. I just feel that humans exercise power and authority over animals. I mean, many of us eat animals everyday that have been slaughtered for the sole purpose of our food. How is that worse than having sex with one? Horrendous crimes are committed everyday, and we should focus our attention on murderers, rapists and people that actually BEAT animals versus someone who has sex with them for a few minutes of pleasure.

lfisher6 · November 2010

I totally agree with you, Wrkn925. I love my pup, my boyfriend loves his. But during the 3min he went into the grocery store to buy some cough medicine when he was really sick ... some animal rights group shoved a bunch of pamphlets through the crack in his window about how cruel he was being. (it was like that Mitch Hedburg joke ... it was if they were saying "here, you throw this away.") Luckily that wasn't as drastic as your coworkers situation. I don't think they have rights, but they should be protected.

leia1979 · November 2010

I'm more on the pro-animal rights side of the discussion, but I do believe it's okay to leave your dog in the car in a responsible manner (windows down, not a hot day, for a very short duration).

Wrkn, did they take his dogs after the fact? If someone calls animal control and they get there before the owner gets back I can kinda understand, because it's not like they respond that quickly. But if he'd already come back for them before the authorities arrived, then that is definitely extreme.

I'm not going to tell anyone they shouldn't eat animals. I just prefer not to eat them. However, I would like them to have decent lives before they are humanely killed for food. I also think testing cosmetics on animals is stupid. There are a host of non-animal tests available to use.

deburnin · November 2010

I'm more pro-animal rights, but I do eat meat. I wish that animals were treated better before they made it to my plate. I don't believe people have the right to beat their animals just because they own them. I'm okay with people leaving their dogs in the car for the same amount of time they would leave a child in it unsupervised. I also, personally, don't see the difference between physically abusing your pet via beating and sexually abusing them, both are physical abuse.

While it's really not that relevant to the topic, in horror movies I always root/worry for the animals more than the humans, because they're always the innocent victims of human stupidity.

heyimbren · November 2010

Yeah, I don't pay too much attention to animal rights but I couldn't believe the treatment I was reading about. It just seems so unnecessary.

I think I get what you're saying GPB. I think animals are significantly different from humans, so I'm not sure we can compare it to a child or something like that in regards to consent or treatment. But I just can't wrap my head around it. It really does just seem too wrong to me.

leia1979 · November 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_animal-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:1a9a5b71-0525-476b-9e19-9639a9cccd3ePost:d2447a01-4c8b-40fc-a670-ab57de7225ff">Re: Animal Rights</a>:
[QUOTE]...While it's really not that relevant to the topic, in horror movies I always root/worry for the animals more than the humans, because they're always the innocent victims of human stupidity.
Posted by deburnin[/QUOTE]

I am absolutely the same way. I guess I feel humans have a lot more control over their destiny than animals.

GreenPepperBurger · November 2010

But I would still open up a can of whoop ass on anyone that had sex with my cat. So...I don't know. I just don't think it should be punishable with jail-time, or be a life-altering thing that causes someone to lose their job.

Wrkn925 · November 2010

leia-
I'm not 100% positive on this, it was about two years ago when this happened, and I just remember him coming to work really upset.
I remember him saying it wasn't more than a 15-minute span from the time he left his car to the time he returned. I think when he came back, there was a lady there crying and freaking out acting concerned for the dogs, she had called Animal Contol, and he was trying to get her to calm down and prove to her the dogs were ok. It was a warm day, but not too hot that I couldn't have sat comfortably in the car. I think animal control arrived when he was trying to get her to shut up.

I know they took the dogs then, not later.

heyimbren · November 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_animal-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:1a9a5b71-0525-476b-9e19-9639a9cccd3ePost:3933c7e7-6bdc-4bcd-86b7-36abd3913c78">Re: Animal Rights</a>:
[QUOTE]Taking this in a different direction...what about something like animal research for human disease?
Posted by laurenb09[/QUOTE]

I might be in the minority here, but I actually don't have too much of a problem with animal testing and research, within limitations.

leia1979 · November 2010

I think medical testing is a much trickier subject than cosmetics. I believe it's easier for people to agree that putting shampoo in a bunny rabbit's eyes and clamping them open is cruel. What's the benefit? Shampoo isn't going to save someone's life. The cost (suffering of the bunny) outweighs the benefit (shampoo, lipstick, etc.). There are plenty of people for animal testing however. I don't understand their viewpoint.

Medical testing has more pronounced benefits. I would like there to be non-animal alternatives for testing. I also have several relatives who've had life-saving medications or procedures that likely went through animal testing in early stages. I guess I can be okay about that tradeoff. But I would like the industry to strive towards finding non-animal alternatives.

jemmini6 · November 2010

I think genetics a drug testing on animals is okay to an extent. It's really hard to judge though, how can we condone eating animals for our survival, but not testing products that can improve our survival with diseases? I understand they may suffer a little more, which is the extent to which I support it. I think if an animal is showing a lot of distress or pain, then they should be treated immediately or humanely euthanized. They still shouldn't have to suffer for our gain.

As for leaving pets in cars, I honestly believe that until they start allowing animals in stores, it shouldn't be an issue unless its for extended periods of time, no air and crazy hot to the point that causes illness or death. Perhaps if they can prove that an animal has been in a car for longer than 15 - 30 min (depending on temperature) or has been caused harm, then it can punishable. But really, why can't you stop for 10 minutes to pick up your dog's prescription?

desertsun · November 2010

I'm a vegetarian. It's a personal choice for me. I simply don't like the idea of eating animals.

I don't see anything morally or ethically wrong with animal testing or eating animals. I just don't personally engage in either activity. I have no problem with people eating meat around me or using medicines that were tested on animals.

So, in answer to the original question, I don't think animals have "rights," but I do think we should try to treat them as humanely as possible/practical.

nottheonlydreamer44 · November 2010

I agree with Desert and oddly enough I kind of agree with GPB (even though I had never thought of it that way before).

I am definitely more animal pro-rights and I think people that harm domesticated pets should be fined and prosecuted far more than they are. The number one predictor of future sociopathic behavior is a person's treatment of animals. I also love my dog more than anything.

I don't know about animal testing; if it's for genetic purposes then I would be okay with it. However, I have seen way too much graphic, truly stomach-turning things, being done to animals that have make-up and dye put into their eyes. I'm obviously an avid ASPCA supporter but I see the thin line.

I want to be a vegetarian but I enjoy steak/seafood far too much. Everything else can go though.

Schrodinger · November 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_animal-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:1a9a5b71-0525-476b-9e19-9639a9cccd3ePost:ec5a53ca-94a6-4b10-8798-1aea21c220f8">Re: Animal Rights</a>:
[QUOTE]This may be an unpopular opinion, but I don't feel that people should be persecuted for having sex with animals.
Posted by GreenPepperBurger[/QUOTE]

<div>The county I live in has had some recent take-downs of bestiality "farms." Those animals are cruelly tortured in order to be compliant or dominant. Horses and hamsters don't naturally do the things that they were doing . . . Most of the animals had to be put down because they couldn't interact normally with humans.</div><div>
</div><div>I think its falls into a similar legal category as suicide. Bestiality should be illegal so that it can be investigated and treated as a crime. Its highly unlikely that police are going to catch the guys in the act of torturing the animals, they are more likely to bust them for selling their services or in the act of having sex with the animals.</div>

GreenPepperBurger · November 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_animal-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:1a9a5b71-0525-476b-9e19-9639a9cccd3ePost:5cfef621-eb90-41c0-a25e-3bd590553ef1">Re: Animal Rights</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Animal Rights : The county I live in has had some recent take-downs of bestiality "farms." Those animals are cruelly tortured in order to be compliant or dominant. Horses and hamsters don't naturally do the things that they were doing . . . Most of the animals had to be put down because they couldn't interact normally with humans. I think its falls into a similar legal category as suicide. Bestiality should be illegal so that it can be investigated and treated as a crime. Its highly unlikely that police are going to catch the guys in the act of torturing the animals, they are more likely to bust them for selling their services or in the act of having sex with the animals.
Posted by Schrodinger[/QUOTE]

I had to watch a documentary for one of my film classes this semester called <em>Zoo</em>, which was partially about an investigation about a man who died having sex with a horse. The sheriff's response was to have the horse gilded (that is, castrated). Isn't that doing even more damage to the horse, when it's not even the animal's fault?

desertsun · November 2010

I thought gelding horses was similar to neutering your dog or cat? As long as there is some anesthesia, I don't know that that's any crueler than training animals to perform acts they wouldn't do naturally?

I mean, I'm not an expert on animals, so I don't have a firm opinion. Just kinda thinking out loud.

GreenPepperBurger · November 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_animal-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:1a9a5b71-0525-476b-9e19-9639a9cccd3ePost:5414347d-3ca8-414f-ad8d-cafa2cf692d5">Re: Animal Rights</a>:
[QUOTE]I thought gelding horses was similar to neutering your dog or cat? As long as there is some anesthesia, I don't know that that's any crueler than training animals to perform acts they wouldn't do naturally? I mean, I'm not an expert on animals, so I don't have a firm opinion. Just kinda thinking out loud.
Posted by desertsun[/QUOTE]

Right, but usually we neuter our pets to control the pet population (wow, I sound like Bob Barker). This horse was gelded solely because it had been sexually abused by a human. I don't think that was the proper response.

jeanacorina · November 2010

I do think animals have rights. I think human beings, being the "superior race" or whatnot, have a huge responsibility. If we are going to use something for food, testing, companionship, labor, or whatever... then we need to take proper care of that thing. We need to make sure it doesn't suffer needlessly because of our selfishness. We need to make sure we're not overpopulating the planet with labradoodles (or anything else, for that matter) just because it pleases us to do so.

Although my pets have always been like family members to me, I don't really expect everyone else to feel that way. Just because I choose not to eat animals doesn't mean I think everyone should be vegetarian.

But I DO believe people need to take a lot more responsibility for their actions (in all things, but especially concerning living, breathing, feeling creatures).

And I do believe cats and dogs and other species may have the emotional capacity of small children. That's enough to cause me to grant them basic rights in my book.

desertsun · November 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_animal-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:1a9a5b71-0525-476b-9e19-9639a9cccd3ePost:eba1000d-533b-43b1-ba03-fb2d12ac6da0">Re: Animal Rights</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Animal Rights : Right, but usually we neuter our pets to control the pet population (wow, I sound like Bob Barker). This horse was gelded solely because it had been sexually abused by a human. I don't think that was the proper response.
Posted by GreenPepperBurger[/QUOTE]

If the horse was trained to interact with humans in a sexual way, is it possible that it was gelded to reduce sex drive and make it safer for him to be around people? I mean, horses are big and can do serious damage. So if he was used to "mounting" people instead of the other way around...? Again, I'm no expert but it seems like there might have been legitimate safety concerns? Would it have been better to euthanize him?

coastiegrl25 · November 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_animal-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special%20Topic%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:136Discussion:1a9a5b71-0525-476b-9e19-9639a9cccd3ePost:eba1000d-533b-43b1-ba03-fb2d12ac6da0">Re: Animal Rights</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Animal Rights : Right, but usually we neuter our pets to control the pet population (wow, I sound like Bob Barker). This horse was gelded solely because it had been sexually abused by a human. I don't think that was the proper response.
Posted by GreenPepperBurger[/QUOTE]

I think in this case it HAD to be gelded. As a stud, even without any human sexual relationships, the stud's hormones are off the wall. Kind of like a teenage boy who just realized what girls are. They don't care what is in their way when a mare is around. They can get especially mean and ignorant of anything ever learned. More often than not a horse is only gelded because of this.

This isn't ALL studs, as the very first horse I rode was a Stud and was actually nicer than he was when he was gelded. He is one of the exceptions.

I'm a believer that animals are innocent. It is up to us to take in and care for the animals that we choose to take out of their natural environment. An animal didn't ask to be taken out of the wild. I eat meat, and probably always will but I believe any kind of animal abuse is so very wrong. I believe the person should be treated the same themselves in return. I think there is a fine line of what abuse is as far as the leaving the animal in the car and animal testing goes.

Hazel_B · November 2010

I don't have a problem eating meat and I don't have a problem with animal testing within reason.

That being said I agree with Jeanna that as the "superior species" we have a huge responsibility and in many ways we do not accept this responsibility.

First, I think treatment of animals is very subjective. My co-worker thinks it is cruel that we leave our dog outside while we are at work. It is not our first choice, but we have long days and I think it is more cruel to stress our dog out by trying not to have accidents in the house. Please note, he is in a kennel with shelter and water. He also will be sleeping in a non-insulated room this coming winter since his wintercoat will be so thick he will be uncomfortable inside. Last winter he'd wake my BF up every night to be let out in the middle of the night because he was too hot. My co-worker thinks this is wrong because she grew up with Labs that couldn't deal with this, meanwhile our dog is a husky and he is bred to be in much more extreme conditions.

Second, normally I agree with you GPB but I don't think I can on this one. Our dog is a rescue and we can still see that in his behaviour regardless of what my BF has done for him. He was not beaten, just neglected and not allowed to interact with other dogs or people. I believe that a wide range of human behaviour negatively affects animals and I would put bestiality in that same category. I know you said it was a couple minutes pleasure for the person but I don't feel that is an excuse. I believe that animals are far more emotional/sensitive than we give them credit for. I don't think we see the severity of the emotional scars because animals get put down very quickly when they are deemed beyond hope.

PaigeMcC · November 2010

I hope I make some sense this morning...I'm recovering from a migraine so I may not be my normal articulate self...

I think animals are delicious. I think animals are cute. I think animals are great companions. I think animals can help us with research (to a degree) and I don't think they deserve to be tortured. I believe animals are an integral part of our society - they are people's companions and pets- and they deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. That being said I am more concerned with the pedophile on the playground then Sally leaving her poodle in the car for 15 minutes.

Also- anyone effs with my pugs and I'll cut them. Don't mess with mama bear.

CASK85 · November 2010

As a scientist who works with animal models of infection, I will just say that the regulations and protocols that we must have in order to do our work are very comprehensive in making sure that the animals don't suffer unnecessarily. The protocols have to be approved by a review board that includes members outside of the institution as well as doctors, other scientists, and ethics experts. If there is a better model or a "lower" organism or less painful method that can be used the protocol won't be approved until the modifications are made.

Animal research has been integral for EVERY SINGLE DRUG that has ever made it to market (at least every drug since human trials were deemed too unethical). Every "clinical trial" of an experimental drug has been tested in an animal first. The increase in human lifespan and health is directly related to our ability to test on the animals that are bred for these purposes, and we should be thankful and appreciate the "sacrifices" that are made for our health.

/soap box

EDIT: after I wrote this I realized it sounds a little like I'm angry, but really I just wanted to share, since I feel like I have some pseudo-expert info.

Narwhal · November 2010

I believe that animals have the right to not be tortured or put through unnecessary pain.

I'm not a vegetarian, but I do try to pay attention to how the animals were treated before they were killed. I do not have a problem with hunting (I personally could not do it, but I do not think it should be outlawed or anything like that), BF is an avid hunter. However, he uses every part of the animal and respects them. He only fires if he knows he has a kill instantly shot. He's missed out on a lot of good trophy animals for it, but I respect him so much for that.

In my area, a big news story is about this dog who's owner caught him on fire. I have a supreme problem with animal cruelty. The dog was found chained into his dog house, with a cinderblock on his head, and the dog house was lit on fire. I think anyone who can do such an act should be put in the same category as a child abuser. These animals cannot reason the way that people can. They can't think "wow, this guy's a douchebag, he has no right to treat me that way," they only know that the person who is supposed to care for them is inflicting so much pain on them. It's dreadful.

Wrkn925 · November 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/special-topic-wedding-boards_not-engaged-yet_animal-rights?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Special Topic Wedding BoardsForum:136Discussion:1a9a5b71-0525-476b-9e19-9639a9cccd3ePost:899bcf86-d5f3-40bf-a2c9-76efab2f60be">Re: Animal Rights</a>:
[QUOTE] I think anyone who can do such an act should be put in the same category as a child abuser.Posted by Narwhal[/QUOTE]

Please excuse me for quoting one sentence, and correct me if I've taken it wrong.

People who abuse animals purely out of meanness should be punished, but these people should not be charged and punished the same as child abusers. That's apples and oranges. Abuse against children is exponentially more horrific. The story you shared is horrible. No animal should ever have to go through what that dog did. It was out of pure hate,with no purpose. But replace the dog in the story with a child, and the person should be punished more severely.

Csiano, you don't sound like you're ranting. You should like you are explaining. Thanks for the information.

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