NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council

bibliophile2010 · June 2011

I don't think there was any implication in that statement that we think badly of non-Catholics. Should we water down the truth because it might upset people? I would certainly argue that we shouldn't.

ootmother2 · June 2011

So Nigerian seminarians are going to minister even though their communication skills are limited?

NYC certainly doesn't have anywhere near full seminaries. Priests are passing on way faster than they can be replaced.

ootmother2 · June 2011

PM

doctabroccoli · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:efaefd5d-63db-426e-ad5c-cb1876f027da">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]I don't think there was any implication in that statement that we think badly of non-Catholics. Should we water down the truth because it might upset people? I would certainly argue that we shouldn't.
Posted by bibliophile2010[/QUOTE]

You may not. And like I said, I don't think she actually meant to imply anything. I just have to try to see things from all angles as a mod.

I have to get to the airport to catch a flight for a conference. Hopefully I'll be able to check in later.

ootmother2 · June 2011

later, docta. I do hope we can continue this thread

lisa89760 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:c8efd5e8-7342-4cd0-a0da-acece614e6cb">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]So Nigerian seminarians are going to minister even though their communication skills are limited? NYC certainly doesn't have anywhere near full seminaries. Priests are passing on way faster than they can be replaced.
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

<div>I guess I"m in agreement with you. The only thing I've heard is that there are not enough priests and how hard it is to find priests. If there are people dying to be priests that's great but you just never hear about it and like OOT said it is a well known fact around here that it's a problem. I also agree that if there is a communication issue, that's just going to drive away more people. And in my personal opinion going back to Latin masses would make the problem a whole lot worse.</div><div>
</div><div>I guess I also don't see the problem with the church conforming a little bit to the society in which its being worshiped in. Not changing the beliefs but trying to attract people to worship and understand the church. I see some churches doing this and I appreciate it. </div>

bibliophile2010 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:0979af31-23df-4fe7-9efe-1a37c40946af">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE] I guess I also don't see the problem with the church conforming a little bit to the society in which its being worshiped in. Not changing the beliefs but trying to attract people to worship and understand the church. I see some churches doing this and I appreciate it.
Posted by lisa89760[/QUOTE]

This depends to a large extent, in my opnion, on what you mean by conforming to society. If you mean using contemporary music or being friendly, reaching out to the community, having dynamic preaching, encouraging continued faith formation and being compassionate toward all persons, I don't disagree. If it means women/married priests, allowing artificial contraception, openly allowing premarital cohabitation, allowing free divorce and remarriage or democratic election of the heierarchy, you are treading in waters that vary from dangerous to deadly. Changing those things is not going to bring people who have left back to the Church and is not going to attract new believers.

I think you will be hard-pressed to find someone who disagrees that there is a growing shortage of American-born priests. Part of the problem is the baby boom (the same reason there is going to be a shortage of doctors and health care providers and many other professions -- more people will be retiring than are around to take their place and to perform the services they need). Part of it is doctrinal problems/misunderstandings that have cropped up in the last 30 years. Part of it are the things that Agape mentioned earlier. Part of it is the sex abuse scandal. Part of it is factors that we can't fully know.

My, point, (and I'm sure to some extent hers as well) is not that Nigerian or Indian priests are going to solve the priest shortage problem. They are not, though we may be seeing more of them in our parishes, whether or not people like it. It is that in many places, especially places where the Truth is not being watered down, seminaries are starting to fill again. There is a rise in vocations in many diocese. Will the tide turn quickly enough to fully alleviate the problem? No. But in another generation, the priest shortage will probably be a thing of the past.

lisa89760 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:d67ace61-282a-408a-9a3d-13072bf5e4e3">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council : This depends to a large extent, in my opnion, on what you mean by conforming to society. If you mean using contemporary music or being friendly, reaching out to the community, having dynamic preaching, encouraging continued faith formation and being compassionate toward all persons, I don't disagree.
Posted by bibliophile2010[/QUOTE]

<div>This is what I meant - I don't think the church should change their beliefs because "everyone does it" if you don't like the core beliefs of a church, you are free to follow another faith. </div><div>
</div>

Riss91 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:0979af31-23df-4fe7-9efe-1a37c40946af">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council : And in my personal opinion going back to Latin masses would make the problem a whole lot worse.Posted by lisa89760[/QUOTE]

The number of people going back to the Latin mass is growing each year. Our parish alone has seen huge growth in the last year alone. I wouldn't discount the ability of the Latin mass to bring people back to the Church. It brought me back and I had known nothing but the new mass for the first 20 years of my life!

ootmother2 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:656d838e-e866-4e5e-b61d-d4cfde4e7e96">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council : The number of people going back to the Latin mass is growing each year. Our parish alone has seen huge growth in the last year alone. I wouldn't discount the ability of the Latin mass to bring people back to the Church. It brought me back and I had known nothing but the new mass for the first 20 years of my life!
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

The language of the mass may be English or Latin but saying mass is not the sole function of the priests.

Priests must be able to "minister to their flock" and that includes confessions, sermons, visiting the sick, performing weddings and baptisms, etc. and that's a problem if the priest isn't able to communicate well.

Foreign born (mostly third world) priests are just not able to fulfill this function. Hence the loss of followers.

I certainly have no solution to this but neither does the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in America. I certainly hope that someone comes up with one soon, before the structure of our Church starts to crumble.

agapecarrie · June 2011

This is circular reasoning that doesn't make sense.

The statement made :
So, in that sense, I would support a dissenting group that is trying to encourage our leaders to attend to problems like sex abuse, etc. There are devils inside the walls of the Church, so it is good to challenge them and those around them who are allowing the evil to fester.
Posted by Riss91

Then this was said:
and I happen to think that you're brilliant.
There are so many problems in the Church that are driving people out of the Church and diminishing the priesthood to barely viable. And it's getting worse.

To which I answered that there is NOT a priest shortage, and in fact the seminaries are packed where orthodoxy is strong, giving Nigeria as an example.I wasn't suggesting Nigeria as a solution, but as a rebuttal of facts in the first place.

To somehow it being brought up that nigerian priests serving in America are making a loss of followers. This isn't talking about the original issue. The facts are there is not a priest shortage in general, but in certain locations. While occasionally someone might be turned off by a priest that is hard to understand, I know for a fact that a loss of followers would not be the main or even a big cause because of this. It's becasue as I stated before, lack of need for God, loss of respect for human dignity and relativism.

I would never leave the church, even if I only had a priest that spoke a foreign language. Because its the truth, and the Eucharist is there. and the priest can provide the sacraments. At some point, people need to take ownership of their faith. I'm mostly self taught, as well as choosing to attend classes, retreats, and workshops to learn more, Mostly taught by qualified people that are not priests. there are many many ways out there for someone to learn more about the faith than from the parish priest. God is not going to force himself on anyone, people have to be open to it, and seek Him.

caitriona87 · June 2011

Ditto Riss on the Latin Mass. In my area at least, I would also venture to say that the average age of TLM attendees is about 20 years younger than at the Novus Ordo parish near my house. (And incidentally the FSSP--the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter, established by Bl. JPII to preserve the TLM--does not have any lack of vocations.)

I also don't think having foreign priests in general is such a terrible thing, especially in light of: a) many Africans already speak English, especially those who've made it through college & seminary, and even if they don't, immersion is a very quick teacher and b) throughout the history of the Church priests have been sent to foreign lands depending on the abundance/shortage of priests in particular areas.

Biblio is right, though, to say that the priest shortage will be ending or at least significantly improved in the relatively near future. Many of the problems in the seminaries that led to the decline have been or are being fixed (and yes, many of them had to do with heterodoxy.) We can see the same phenomenon at work in religious orders. The heterodox orders haven't seen new vocations in years whereas orders like the Sisters of Life or the Nashville Dominicans are practically overflowing with vibrant young women.

bibliophile2010 · June 2011

As I said above, there is room in the Church for the Extraordinary form mass, LifeTeen masses, charismatic masses and everything inbetween, if the teaching and the faith are there and are sound. There are ladies on this board who are beautiful Christian souls (so far as one can tell from a message board!) who are fed at the Latin mass. There are ladies who are fed by contemporary music and worship, who are equally beautiful Christians. The Church agrees with me (or, more accurately, I agree with the Church) in allowing both forms.

I would rather have the sacraments than no sacraments (ie no priest), but I would rather have a priest who can really minister to me in reconcilliation, in his preaching/teaching, when I seek advice from my priest, etc. which means being able to communicate well. I can personally understand people with accents with very little effort, but I know many people, especially the hard of hearing, who struggle.

Those things said, I think there are a couple of different issues floating through this post that is contributing to lack of understanding.

___

By the by, this is a P&R since I have pre-wedding parties all day. I'll be eager to see where this goes by the time I get back in a day or two!

ootmother2 · June 2011

Okay, agape.

Try this and you are totally free to use google.

Research the shortage of priests in the United States, skip St. Louis where you claim there is no shortage.

The fall of vocations started in the 70s, in 1975 there were just over 36,000 diocesan priests, in 1995, 32,300 and in 2005, 27,900.

The are far more priests over the age of 90 than under 30. (US stat)

Even the very Catholic country of Honduras has 400 priests with a population of 5 million. (found that by accident but it's true.)

Other countries:

Even in the Canadian city of Ottowa (capital of Canada) they use 2,000 pastoral coordinates to perform marriage, baptism & funerals. This is a LARGE city

those full seminaries you mentioned? India has one seminarian for every 800 (appx) people. These priests are trained to missionary work, not to stay in India.

All you have to do is look outside and LOOK.

btw, there is no real reason to keep Catholic priests from getting married which could increase the number of men wanting to enter the priesthood.

Priests, bishops, cardinals and even popes were allowed to marry up until about the 15th century. The House of Borgia lead to the ban on marriage for the clergy because the large families were draining on the properties and wealth of the Church. Look it up. Read The House of Borgia (well, maybe not because it's pretty close to porn)

Open your mind to these realities! They won't go away because you ignore them.

"Tis time of the bishops to take their collective heads of of the sand. But that won't happen in my lifetime" P. Darcey, New York Times 2009

caitriona87 · June 2011

Re: the original topic:

http://www.aodonline.org/AODOnline/News+++Publications+2203/ACC.htm

Info from the Archdiocese of Detriot about this group & why they are to be avoided

agapecarrie · June 2011

It is true there is no THEOLOGICAL reason that men who are married can't be priests (by the way, priests cannot marry, they would have to marry first then be ordained). It is a discipline issue, not a doctrinal issue,

There ARE most defintely plenty of reasons that they should not in the Latin rite. This will not increase vocations much. The problems that come with this practice at this time ridiculously outweigh the very small increase in numbers, if at all.

There are more seminaries that are packed in the USA, as well. And my point still stands...very firmly, that the shortage is not happening where orthodox teaching is proclaimed, as well as people's view of human dignity is better, etc etc. ...

ootmother2 · June 2011

"There are many more seminaries that are packed in the USA, as well. "

Please give me the names and cities. Provide some proof to your stand. I did.

agapecarrie · June 2011

Lincoln, NE is one...but even there the guys have the diocesan seminary and FSSP seminary to choose from, so they are spread out.

http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1993/sep1993p4_808.html

Philadelphia is another one.-- st. charles borromeo.

St. Louis is a bishop factory, so several of our guys get sent to Rome to study as well.

agapecarrie · June 2011

but all of this is still far from the point. THe point still stands that where there is orthodox teaching, there is more vocations and faithful. in St. Louis, we have a community of carmelites (not the chloistered, although their "chapter" is thriving too) that have to have sisters sleep on cots because they can't fit anyone. Same goes for martyrs in Alton, IL (close to St. Louis)

ootmother2 · June 2011

Lincoln has ordained 19 priests in the past 5 years.

I do know that there is a seminary in Arlington, Virgina that seems to be putting out a reasonable number of priests but it's no where near keeping up with the huge growth in population.

St Louis said their guys to Rome? They sent Cardinal Law to Rome as well. haha

That's not enough proof and this is getting tedious. I gave six sets of facts but you provide one maybe.

This just isn't worth the wear on my fingernails. Do come to Boston or NYC soon and see how empty our churches and rectories are. You may just learn something.

agapecarrie · June 2011

For only 82,000 Catholics. And there are 2 seminaries to choose from.

the ad hominem and straw mans are not logical here. You've made my point very plainly that Boston and NY are empty...becuase they haven't been teaching orthodox church teaching. (NY until recently...it will take awhile with Dolan).

ootmother2 · June 2011

And Philadelphia is different?

No, they are now in the middle of a sex scandal that would put Cardinal Law to shame.

19 priests are up on charges and Cardinal Rigali will most likely have to resign or take the "transfer" to Rome that Law took.

What in the world are does "teaching orthodox church teaching" mean.

You're not making sense at all.

The entire country needs more Catholic priests and you're saying that certain areas are getting more priests because they're holier? Or have been taught better Catholicism?

THAT is offensive

agapecarrie · June 2011

It makes complete sense and it isn't offensive at all. orthodox catholic teaching (Teaching true to the faith, not heresies or agendas) attract people to the truth. As is the case in St. Louis, Lincoln, Philly, and Nigeria, to name a few.

...have you been reading this thread? This has been stated by many people throughout.

ootmother2 · June 2011

Of course I have been reading the thread and pointing things out to you that you simply ignore or come back and say that makes no sense.

I don't and never have lived in the hotbed of sin and I certainly am well educated, Jesuit, btw.

Perhaps they are right that the Jesuits are the smarter society. It certainly seems to be here. and at Boston College. and at Convent of the Sacred Heart.

btw, read the post mica put up the other day. It's just titled :"OOT"

doctabroccoli · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:88c4a919-3020-4704-8605-6b501930f757">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]Lincoln, NE is one...but even there the guys have the diocesan seminary and FSSP seminary to choose from, so they are spread out. <a href="http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1993/sep1993p4_808.html" rel='nofollow'>http://www.ad2000.com.au/articles/1993/sep1993p4_808.html</a> Philadelphia is another one.-- st. charles borromeo. St. Louis is a bishop factory, so several of our guys get sent to Rome to study as well.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

I'm not taking sides with either you or OOT here, but I do feel the need to point out for the sake of this discussion that this article is almost 20 years old (1993).

agapecarrie · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:91659447-7076-42a2-83da-ec67096e5a35">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council : I'm not taking sides with either you or OOT here, but I do feel the need to point out for the sake of this discussion that this article is almost 20 years old (1993).
Posted by doctabroccoli[/QUOTE]

oops. sorry

Try this one....disclaimer, I didn't read through the whole blog, but it points out what I've been saying too.
<a href="http://offerimustibidomine.blogspot.com/2011/06/other-seminary-success-in-lincoln.html" rel='nofollow'>http://offerimustibidomine.blogspot.com/2011/06/other-seminary-success-in-lincoln.html</a>

Calypso1977 · June 2011

with all do respect to our dedicated mods, I personally dont feel its the job of Knot moderators to "police" what people say on here unless it is something that directly violates Knot posting rules. i think if someone disagrees with something posted or truly finds it offensive, they will either post something directly or hit "report" if so moved.

Meg1036 · June 2011

I have purposefully stayed out of this thread, for many reasons.

But I want to disagree with Calypso and say that I do believe that the mods can and should have some latitude beyond TK posting rules. Unfortunately, conversations on this board have a tendency to get ugly sometimes. I think mostly it comes from passionate disagreement about something important. But the result is saddening. And because of that, I think we all need to be particularly mindful about what we say and how we say it. And a gentle chiding from a mod - or from anyone, really, should remind us to remain on-point and cognizant of the other posters as well as lurkers.

When DocBroc stepped in on this thread, she didn't threaten anyone at all. There was no discussion of taking posts down or banning anyone. Just a reminder that her comment could be taken, by some, negatively. And as it was a comment that called out (broadly) western society, I would be surprised if it didn't offend someone.

So to both Riss and DocBroc - keep up the good work!

Calypso1977 · June 2011

so how can one poster in particular antagonize repeatedly, every chance she gets, another poster in particular without any "be careful" warning from the mods?

if they are going to police, then they should police consistently. not pick and choose who they want to police.

lisa89760 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:40694b92-9c09-4139-9fd0-0bc6ce7af628">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]Re: the original topic: <a href="http://www.aodonline.org/AODOnline/News+++Publications+2203/ACC.htm" rel='nofollow'>http://www.aodonline.org/AODOnline/News+++Publications+2203/ACC.htm</a> Info from the Archdiocese of Detriot about this group & why they are to be avoided
Posted by caitriona87[/QUOTE]

<div>Thanks!! That is very helpful!
</div>

NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council

Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit &amp; American Catholic Council

Choose Another Board

Search Boards

NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit &amp; American Catholic Council

Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit &amp;amp; American Catholic Council

Choose Another Board

Search Boards

NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council

Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council