Catholic Weddings

Annulment Woes

My groom and I both are Catholic and both divorced. We thought his annulment would be our nightmare, but it's actually gone more smoothly than we dreamed - it's been granted in the first instance, and we should hear about the second instance. Then we hold our breath to see if it will be appealed by the other party, but so far, so good.

Mine, however, has been the nightmare, which is absolutely unfathomable to me. I was married for less than two years, we weren't married in the Catholic Church - we weren't married in any church,  but in a civil court! My husband was an alcoholic and abusive, and I was clinically depressed at the time of our marriage. We thought this one would go through in no time at all.

I started my annulment in my home diocese, but we couldn't find my ex-husband. I kept trying things and they kept telling me to try something else. Finally they said they couldn't establish jurisdiction, so months later I transferred the case to the diocese where the marriage took place. In August, they told me the case had been given to the psychological expert who apparently is involved in all the cases where there are psychological factors as part of the reason for the nullity. When I called today - nearly three months later - they said the expert still has my case. It still has to go to the defender of the bond, then finally to the decision stage. Each of these stages could take two months - so I won't have my first decision until four months from...who knows when? Then it has to go to a second instance, which they said could also take four months. Without a doubt, this annulment will take longer than the marriage lasted!!

I am so discouraged, I just burst into tears when I called today. The woman I spoke with was very nice and said she would try to nudge the expert and to get the case put at the top of the lists at the next two stages, but this just is so depressing. We want to plan an October wedding, but most Catholic churches ask for six months notice before the wedding, so we just don't know what to do.

More than anything, I just needed to vent and cry a little about the whole thing...thanks for listening...
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Re: Annulment Woes

  • edited December 2011
    Awww...I'm sorry--just hold on. It will come through, and it is definitely worth waiting for!
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  • M&Mf4meM&Mf4me member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I must agree, it's been a rocky road for us as well, I expected mine to be harder to prove.  Nope mine is done, however when we expected his to take 4 weeks, it is now 2 years later, and the first instance is not nullity.  We know that she has intimidated the witnesses, and we have proof to that effect, but we can't get anyone to testify to it, so we may well not be able to marry at all. So pray we can get those involved to tell the Truth.  That is all I pray for right now. 

    You have my prayers, but I would caution you about believing in any date until you have a first instance. 

    Blessings to you
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  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
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    edited December 2011
    lmeade ...why are you doing the full annulment process? If you were Catholic and married outside the church, it should be a simple lack of form. no other evidence is even needed.
  • edited December 2011
    I hope things work out for you! be patient hopefully there is a reason for all of this and God will bless you with a wonderful marriage when it's time.
  • LouWho19LouWho19 member
    100 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I'm so sorry to hear about things being so difficult! You are in my prayers.
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  • mica178mica178 member
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    edited December 2011
    I was just going to ask what agapecarrie asked.

    I believe that even if your ex is not cooperating with the process, you can have someone who knew both of you during your previous marriage step in to explain what happened.  Have you explored that option?

    Hang in there!
  • edited December 2011
    so sorry. It will all work out in the end.
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  • newlyseliskinewlyseliski member
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    edited December 2011
    So sorry you're having to go through this lmeade!  I have a friend who's going through this right now and it's an arduous process.  I also wonder the same thing as mica and agapecarrie... although it may still recognized as a natural marriage even though it did not take place in the church?  My prayers for both you and your fiance!
  • edited December 2011
    I'm another who wonders why you can't use the lack of form.

    I also know that having a non-cooperative ex-spouse can be overcome with other witnesses.

    Be strong and see it through -- know that it will be worth it in the end. My prayers are with you.
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  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
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    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-woes?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:59181754-eade-4229-a052-c0c920c10f15Post:4890561b-23c1-4786-bce2-2bedc1275fd6">Re: Annulment Woes</a>:
    [QUOTE]So sorry you're having to go through this lmeade!  I have a friend who's going through this right now and it's an arduous process.  I also wonder the same thing as mica and agapecarrie... although it may still recognized as a natural marriage even though it did not take place in the church?  My prayers for both you and your fiance!
    Posted by newlyseliski[/QUOTE]

    No it wouldn't. Catholics are bound by form in order to have a valid marriage at all. (unless they received a dispensation from form).
  • edited December 2011
    That's what I thought I too, but apparently not. This was the case in both Missouri and Indiana...I had to go through the whole process.
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  • edited December 2011
    Thank you all so much for the words of support...I appreciate them. My ex cannot be located at all, which is why I had to go to the diocese where the marriage took place. They tried to contact his mother - waited a couple of weeks, then based on all my efforts and this information, they proceeded based solely on what my witnesses submitted.

    <sigh /> Wishing there was an express lane for some of these, LOL...I mean, we obviously take this very seriously or we wouldn't be doing this to begin with, but sometimes you just gotta make yourself laugh. You guys have really, really helped...thank you!!!! And I'm going dress shopping tomorrow, so that will help too.Smile
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  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
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    edited December 2011
    lmeade, seriously, talk to another priest, and call the tribunal. If you were catholic at the time that you attempted a civil marriage with no dispensation, it should be a lack of form only. I would seriously look into this.
  • LouWho19LouWho19 member
    100 Comments
    edited December 2011
    Enjoy dress shopping!! :)
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  • edited December 2011
    As a cynical Catholic I just have to say:

    If they are willing to bind you in your first marriage (despite the fact that it was outside of the church), why not just do your second marriage outside of the church too? If the church followed its own logic it would have to recognize the second non-Catholic marriage just as it did the first non-Catholic marriage.

    If that seems weird its probably because a lot of Catholic teachings are just silly and meant to raise money for the church. 

    I say find a Lutheran or Presbyterian (Catholic-Light) and then have the wedding you want without all the ridiculousness. 
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
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    edited December 2011
    NOLA- if you are going to come to a Catholic board and insult the teachings, and assert something as ridiculous as saying that the "Teachings" are meant to raise money for the church, then give examples, so that they can be refuted.

    by the very statement you made, you are showing that you don't know what a "teaching" is. The "teaching" here is the one that Christ gave...that there is no such thing as divorce. Meaning a valid marriage is a valid marriage, and no human can separate what God has joined. It's not the church that determined this "silly" teaching, but Christ.

    Just so you know, the church loses money on every annulment case.
  • mica178mica178 member
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    edited December 2011
    NOLA, please read Mathew 19 and Mark 10.

    The Catholic church teaches us that marriage is permanent.  The nullification process looks to find reasons why the original marriage was not valid.  In the OP's case, it will probably come down to lack of form, unless she underwent a convalidation.  Validity (or lack thereof) can also mean that the couple did not take their vows to mean the same thing, for example, if they consciously put conditions on their marriage rather than enter the marriage with an open mind.

    From a purely pragmatic point of view, I think that it's great that the church requires that people who wish to have their prior marriage annulled and remarry examine what happened during the first marriage before they enter into the second.  Many people repeat the same mistakes.  The nullification process is an opportunity for the individuals to avoid those old mistakes so that the new marriage can be successful.

    Oh, and ditto what agapecarrie said about annulments being money-losers.  Hours of examination are involved, but the fees are very minimal and do not recoup costs.
  • k8lyk8ly member
    100 Comments
    edited December 2011
    Cynical Catholics need not apply and spread misinformation.  Seriously, I've been lurking on this board for a very long time, and it's very frustrating that people that are so misinformed feel the need to interject.  I've been "correcting" the misconceptions about the Catholic Church since I was in high school.  Thank you ladies for your tireless efforts to educate .  I"m hoping we are not feeding someone who is trolling.

    I would take agapecarrie's advice and seek another opinion.  I was married by a judge for my first marriage and am able to do the "express lane", as you put it, for my upcoming 2nd marriage because I was a Catholic, who did not renounce my faith, who married a non-catholic, outside the church and its sacrament, without the church's permission.  As agapecarrie said, it's lack of form.  The reason I am able to do this is because it's cut and dry that my last marriage was invalid.  No investigation is needed - which is what an annulment process is.  An investigation into the validity of a marriage.  That takes time.

    My friend, on the other hand, was married by a judge and had to go through the entire process for her 2nd marriage because her first marriage was two non-catholics, and the church recognizes that as a valid marriage.
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  • Calypso1977Calypso1977 member
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    edited December 2011
    k8ly, please dont lurk anymore...come chat with us!!

    OP, i hope everything works out...while im not well versed in annulments, this one soudns like you might be getting  a bit of a run around.
  • k8lyk8ly member
    100 Comments
    edited December 2011
    Calypso,

    Thank you for the warm welcome!  I've found the regulars on this board kind and supportive - about Church teaching and in general! 
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  • mica178mica178 member
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    edited December 2011

    Hi k8ly, and welcome!  (Sorry OP for threadjacking.)

  • edited December 2011
    Again, thank you everyone for the wonderful warm wishes and information! I guess I should add that I was not Catholic at the time of my first marriage...I have been Catholic for...just over two years. It's a lovely story...my fiance and I met each other while building hiking trails. We began as friends, then slowly realized that we loved each other. One Saturday, we were hiking, and he mentioned that he wanted to be off the trail by 4:00 so he could go to church. I looked at him and said (lol): "I knew you were Catholic but I didn't know you were THAT Catholic!" But his faith was clearly very important to him.

    So, the next time we went hiking on a Saturday, I asked if I could go with him. I hadn't been to church in YEARS (I was baptized, raised and confirmed Methodist) but I wanted to, at the very least, be supportive because I could see how much it meant to him.

    I had never felt like that in a church before. It was so lovely, and I was just mesmerized the whole time (this priest gives an amazing homily). But I wanted to be sure that it was the church and not my fiance, so I went to two more Masses, and I felt the same way, so at home, so engaged in a way I never had. I started looking for information on how to convert. I went to a fourth church, and from the minute I stepped in the door, it just smelled wonderful and felt wonderful. After Mass, I almost went back to my truck, then I stopped and asked the priest about RCIA.

    They had just started and had class right after Sunday Mass...so I was able to start right away...and I did, and went into the church the following Easter.

    Though I disagree with some things, we do love the Church, which is why we're going through all this. I truly believe my annulment will be granted, and that it's just a matter of time before he and I will be able to set a definite date.

    Thank you again for your words of wisdom and caring...

    Linda
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  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
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    edited December 2011
    lmeade, that was the important detail. The Catholic church gives the benefit of presuming valid marriages to everyone-- this is why your marriage has to go through the annulment process...

    and please PUHLEEZE, please, I beg you, before you form decision of what you don't agree with, study it and look into it. You'll be surprised that the church's teachings actually make sense, and one doesn't make sense without the others.


  • edited December 2011
    Oh, I agree and love many of the Church's teachings...FI is a cradle Catholic and also an attorney who studied Canon Law in law school, as well as theology before that. We both read Church teachings and other sources extensively. It's like anything else, though...I don't think there's anything that is 100% perfect, and since the Church is an institution that is run by human beings, there are going to flaws and imperfections in execution...the history of the Church certainly reflects some times when people and even Popes have gone astray. But love for the Church is like love of so many things...you love it despite, or perhaps because, of its imperfections.

    At its heart, however, the Church is beautiful, beautiful...
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  • edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-woes?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:59181754-eade-4229-a052-c0c920c10f15Post:945fbf48-257a-4f08-8bed-f4861b675505">Re: Annulment Woes</a>:
    [QUOTE]As a cynical Catholic I just have to say: If they are willing to bind you in your first marriage (despite the fact that it was outside of the church), why not just do your second marriage outside of the church too? If the church followed its own logic it would have to recognize the second non-Catholic marriage just as it did the first non-Catholic marriage. If that seems weird its probably because a lot of Catholic teachings are just silly and meant to raise money for the church.  I say find a Lutheran or Presbyterian (Catholic-Light) and then have the wedding you want without all the ridiculousness. 
    Posted by NOLAbridealmost[/QUOTE]

    The Church's teachings on marriage are not "meant to raise money for the church" -- they are meant to affirm the importance of marriage.  The Church is providing her first marriage with a presumption of validity, as it does with all marriages.  Marriages are presumed valid unless proven otherwise.  Unfortunately, it looks as if she's encountered some delays because of the tribunal's inability to find her ex-husband...  but that would be the case in a civil court, too, if she were seeking a civil divorce and he could not be located. 

    About the money issue specifically, it does take money to run the tribunals and investigate whether a marriage was valid -- but as agapecarrie said, most tribunals lose money on declarations of nullity.....  And the process for a civil divorce is far more expensive.  In my area, it is $475 simply to file a divorce petition, and an additional $75 for service of that petition on your spouse.  Any motions thereafter (property, child custody, child support) are an additional $100 plus the cost of service by the sheriff.  Plus your lawyer's fees, and you're looking at a minimum of $3000 in my area just for a civil divorce -- and the courts hardly ever waive fees for those who say they can't afford it.   By contrast, the archdiocesan tribunal has a flat fee of $500 (which covers only about half the cost of the process), and that can be waived if the applicant is unable to pay.

    So who, exactly, makes money on this?  I'd say it's the civil court system, not the Church.  Please put your conspiratorial cynicism away.

    ETA:  I'm in NOLA, too.  The costs I'm referring to above are the local ones. 


    (PS.  I grew up Presbyterian, and it was definitely not "Catholic light."  Calvinism is quite different from Catholic teachings...)
  • edited December 2011
    Lmeade62, don't give up hope.  Sometimes the court process, whether it's a civil court or a church court, takes a long time...  But things will move eventually.  Be patient and keep calling to check in about the status of your case.  (Maybe you could even enlist your priest to call about it?  Any thoughts on whether that is kosher, ladies?)

    Best of luck to you. 
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
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    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-woes?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:59181754-eade-4229-a052-c0c920c10f15Post:f108f34f-54d4-48b7-ad8c-e4d234a41b26">Re: Annulment Woes</a>:
    [QUOTE]Oh, I agree and love many of the Church's teachings...FI is a cradle Catholic and also an attorney who studied Canon Law in law school, as well as theology before that. We both read Church teachings and other sources extensively. It's like anything else, though...I don't think there's anything that is 100% perfect, and since the Church is an institution that is run by human beings, there are going to flaws and imperfections in execution...the history of the Church certainly reflects some times when people and even Popes have gone astray. But love for the Church is like love of so many things...you love it despite, or perhaps because, of its imperfections. At its heart, however, the Church is beautiful, beautiful...
    Posted by lmeade62[/QUOTE]

    The thing is though, is it Christ's church or not? Did he mean it when he said the Holy Spirit would protect it from error in Matthew 16? Isn't God capable of working through humans?

    This does not mean that the people running it or perfect, but we have to believe that all the teaching of faith and morals are the truth...because Christ promised it.
    When one becomes Catholic on Easter Vigil, they have to make a statement that they believe that everything the Catholic church teaches is true.
  • newlyseliskinewlyseliski member
    1000 Comments Fourth Anniversary Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_annulment-woes?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:59181754-eade-4229-a052-c0c920c10f15Post:d8a983cb-5780-46d0-b1da-4e35026818b5">Re: Annulment Woes</a>:
    [QUOTE]No it wouldn't. Catholics are bound by form in order to have a valid marriage at all. (unless they received a dispensation from form).
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]


    Good to know :)  I think that I confused something that I heard in a talk locally about marriage!  Natural... valid... etc. etc.?  More stuff to read up on!  Thanks, agapecarrie.
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
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    edited December 2011
    Natural marriage is what happens when one or both people are not baptized. It is still considered "valid". When both are baptized, and it is presumed to be valid, then it becomes a sacrament. On top of that, a Catholic must be follow correct form and matter when participating in marriage (unless received dispensation)
  • wildredirishwildredirish member
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    edited December 2011
    Hello all. I'm fairly new to the Catholic Religion. My S.O. is Catholic and as also his large family. I am not Catholic. I have attended various churches throughout my life but haven't stuck to one. The more we attend the mass, the more I think I have found 'my church.'  I have started reading some books I found from the online Catholic Home Study Service because I wanted more information. When I started reading the posts about annulment I feel discouraged and wanted to know more. My S.O. and I have been together over 4 years. He has a daughter (no marriage to the mother) and I have been married twice... (I cringe to say that). I'm not happy about the fact that I'm divorced.  Not that I miss the ex, but because I obviously didn't choose wisely. The first was after our daughter was born...Just a few months after I,myself, had turned 18. Her father and I were married by a judge at the court house and didn't last not quite 1 year. The second marriage I was 21and the ceremony was performed in a Church that his grandparents attended. We didn't even go to church there. It lasted technically 5 1/2 years. Though we split up after 4. There were two children from this marriage... which was a fraud to me. He pretty much pretended to like things I do but didn't really. He finally admitted it and ended up leaving. Fast fwd years later and much blossoming in maturity and age to now. My S.O. and I have discussed marriage and plan on it in a year or two when I have finished my degree. We have taken "alot of time" according to others about finally discussing marriage. We needed that though, and I absolutely needed the time to know for sure! What steps do we need to take and do you think we'll be able to get married in the Church as we'd both like to? Reading these stories scares me that we won't get to. I'd be heartbroken. We cannot have any children due to medical reasons and already have 4 together. We do of course take them to Mass as well. What might any of have as far as advice for me?

    Thank you so much!
    Kristin
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