NFP Questions

maus2012 · May 2011

I've been looking on the other threads about NFP and I've noticed one trend that a lot of women follow when trying to defend their use of NFP/convince others: they do not want to put any "artificial hormones" in their body. This reasoning seems great in practice, but I have a few questions out there for those women who use this reasoning.

Do you only buy and eat completely organic, hormone-free meat and other foods? Do you follow a strict vegan diet so as to not pollute your body with anything "unnatural"? Do you trust your body's natural, God-given defenses against diseases or do you get vaccinated? Do you cure your headaches and cramps with natural methods or do you use pain killers? Do you advocate the use of prescription drugs for problems like bi-polar, depression, ADD, and other disorders that are biological in nature and therefore a part of what God gave us?

Questions like these make me wonder if the "anti-artificial" reasoning is just a way of trying to defend your religious decision in a secular world.

Just some food for thought.

Riss91 · May 2011

I do try to live as naturally as possible - buying organic, not taking unnecessary medications, etc. But, I don't think you can relate the two ideas in absolution because with BCP, there is an easily available, FREE and healthy alternative in NFP. With some of the things you mentioned, there may not be similar subsititutes, so you have to do what is best for your body (which personally for me is trying to be as natural as possible, within reason). And the Church's stance is not against receiving medication or treatments.

So, it's more about not adding unnessary artificial hormones, etc than ONLY EVER using completely natural treatments and methods.

Hope that helps!

agapecarrie · May 2011

The problem with what you are posing is that you are equating a working reproductive system with a disease, and also saying that God gave us illnesses...neither of which are true.

Actually, the artificial hormones make the body stop working the way its supposed so. It shuts down a working (or struggling to work) system of the body. The other meds mentioned are to aid the body in working properly.

The pill has been declared a carcinogen by the World Health Organization.

The hormones have been peed into the water, and affected fish reproductive organs.

ootmother2 · May 2011

Riss, PM

clearheavens · May 2011

Your question assumes that fertility is meant to be treated. When on the pill, you are going away from the normal homeostatis of your body, and introducing abnormal amounts of hormones (estrogen and progestin) to prevent your ovaries from releasing the egg. For some pills in some cases, it may act as an abortifacient and prevent the fertilized egg from implanting. Above all, this is unnecessary strain on your body, especially as there are equally effective but safer methods of preventing pregnancy. At the heart of the pill is a violation of the human person. You and your body deserve better.

Eating healthy, exercising, and treating your body well are extensions of upholding the dignity of the person.

The Church is not against science and medicine. It actually embraces them. The Church is against the pill because it goes against the type of love that a man and and woman are meant to give one another. Love is meant to model Christ's love for us, which is full, total, faithful, and fruitful. When contracepting, at least one of these characters is missing. To understand why, you have to understand how the pill and NFP are very different, and that the same end doesn't mean they are the same. (And unlike the pill, NFP can be used to help achieve pregnancy.)

Think about it. For thousands of years, we already had a means to prevent pregnancy before the pill. It's abstinence. The pill wasn't created to prevent pregnancy. It was created so people can have sex without dealing with the responsibility of conceiving.

If your goal is to love your spouse as much as possible, I see NFP as having a bigger chance of doing so than the pill. Couples on the pill can absolutely love each other, but they can love each other even more with NFP. NFP works perfectly within the healthy human body. It is (extremely) hard to violate each others' human dignity or to use one another. The beauty of NFP is that the couple uses it to respect God's design of their bodies and work within that design. The way you view fertility changes--from undesirable, a nuisance to be avoided, or even a disease--to a quality of that person or a gift.

Couples using NFP know what stage of their cycle they're in at any given time. Skeptics who try NFP out for the first time like how they take advantage of knowing the stage of their cycle to talk more. NFP gives you the knowledge whether having sex will end up in pregnancy or not. It's makes for awesome and powerful love making. It changes the dynamics of your marriage for the better.

threepinkroses · May 2011

I get what you're saying, but there IS a difference in the way you feel when you're on hormonal birth control. I've been on a ton of stuff- two different types of pills, depo provera, Nuva Ring, Paragard and Mirena.

I was an absolute nutcase on everything before the Paragard. All of my mood swings and irritability disappeared once I wasn't on anything. I wanted the Paragard IUD because it would give me pregnancy protection minus all of the hormones that made me a raging bitch. I wasn't a raging bitch on paragard, but I was in a lot of pain from my cramping. I swapped from that to the low hormone Mirena because the copper in the Paragard made my periods long, heavy and crampy. I've liked the Mirena- the low dose of hormones hasn't really affected me like the other methods I've used.

I think saying that you don't want hormones in your body is a valid argument. I could feel a difference when I wasn't on hormonal birth control. I've never felt a difference when I've eaten organic foods instead of normal grocery store stuff. Hell, I barely felt a difference when I tried to cut out refine flour and sugar, except that I was hungry.

But really, does it matter what anyone elses reasons are? Its a personal decision made between each of us and our husbands. We can use whatever rationale we see fit.

linzluvsgzuss · May 2011

What's wrong with valid "reasoning"?

Calypso1977 · May 2011

i do not eat organic 100% of the time, but i try to when i can and when it doesnt cost and arm and a leg. i also try not to eat junk foods or any prepackaged foods that contain a high amoutn of ingredients that i cannot pronounce.

i also dont take meds often, other than tylenol and this time of year, OTC allergy meds. i also have never had a single immunization in my life. so, yeah, i dont really like to put stuff in my body, although i did use the pill for 10 years, and am convinced it messed me up, although i wont know for sure until we TTC which will probably be late summer/ early fall.

lalaith50 · May 2011

I do try to eat organically whenever possible, however, that can get quite expensive! (I can hardly wait til FI and I have a house that has a garden!)

Ironically (or not) abstinence/NFP is completely free! yay! (any other form of BC costs something...)

As a PP pointed out, headaches/sickness are intrinsically bad, a baby isn't! A pregnancy means that you're *healthy,* and your body is doing what it is supposed to!

So basically, you do what you can, within reason. And, especially if you think that self-control is a virtue worth practicing by it's own right, then NFP is certainly an easy, effective way to eliminate one more unnecesary, artificial thing from your body!

bibliophile2010 · May 2011

Although I prefer to eat organically and avoid pre-packaged/pre-prepared food as much as possible, I am not necessarily opposed to "artificial hormones" if they are being introduced to correct something that is not working as it should. I don't have a problem with reproductive hormone therapy that actually addresses what is missing/not being produced correctly/adequately/etc. For example, it appears that I might have low progesterone, and if the ultimate decision is to use artifical means to correct this, I don't have a problem with it. As others have explained, though, the Pill does not correct anything. It stops fertility, which is not a disease, and it only masks the symptoms of reproductive health problems.

I feel the same way about other medications. If they are working to correct a chemical/hormonal imbalance or are helping an organ to function properly, I have no issues. If you put your kid on Ritalin without proper diagnosis, because it will make him less hyper (example -- I certainly do not believe that all cases of ADD are false, which is why I emphasized proper diagnosis), I do have a problem with it. I take asthma and allergy medication daily, because without it my body simply could not function.

ootmother2 · May 2011

I think I can see a bit of your connection but not completely.

I had to take heavy doses of estrogen, then progesterone, then estrogen, and on and on because I had Asherman's syndrome. Yes, those drugs did make it possible to conceive at the end of "the project".

So I was fertile, infertile, fertile, etc on and off for a year.

I am thankful for the drugs that corrected my medical problem but I don't think that you're quite in the same category.

Think about what you & your H's position and let your conscience guide you from there. It's not at all a matter of natural.

And anyone who goes without vaccines for childhood illnesses is an idiot that I want to keep a good distance from. Just think about what you may not catch but what you can spread.

caitriona87 · May 2011

Clearheavens gave a great answer (as did others.)

I think the issue about "natural" vs "artificial" comes from a misunderstanding about the reasons behind the Church's teaching on contraception...you will often hear people say that NFP is acceptable because it is "natural" while contraception is unacceptable because it is "artificial." That is not true. The immorality of contraception has to do with the NATURE ("the essential qualities or characteristics by which something is recognized" according to the dictionary) of God, man, and sex. Contraception is "unnatural" in that sense--contrary to the nature of things. NOT "unnatural" in the sense of "manmade"--well, it is that, too, but that's not the reason for its immorality. Plenty of manmade things are morally good or neutral. (like the medications, etc. that you described.)

And I think those "defending" their NFP use to secular audiences do so not out of a defensiveness per se (unless they are actually being attacked, which says more about the attackers than about NFP or its users) but more a sense of "I've found this great thing, maybe you'd want to consider it too." While non-religious people may not be interested in the theological/moral arguments, they may well be interested in the health & environmental benefits of NFP vs. the damages of contraception. So, that's probably where those lines of reasoning come in.

Calypso1977 · May 2011

And anyone who goes without vaccines for childhood illnesses is an idiot that I want to keep a good distance from. Just think about what you may not catch but what you can spread.

your opinion, but there is actually a very large movement out there of folks who are anti-vaccine for a variety of reasons. i urge you to do some research. the Global Vaccination Institute is a good starting point, but there are numerous other resources as well, many put together by MDs.
http://thinktwice.com/studies.htm

while the autism link has been disproven, there are many other negatives associated with vaccines. different families make different choices based on what htey feel is important for their child. some folks choose to only do a few vaccines rather than all. some choose none, some choose all. you shoudl read some of the ingredients in vaccines. youd be shocked. ask for information packets next time you are at our doctor, or do some online research.

interestingly, a non-vaccinated person can actually catch a disease from a recently immunized person.

ive been fit as a fiddle my entire life (other than chicken pox), as has my sister (and her four children are also not vaccinated, nor were my parents).

mica178 · May 2011

Oh, brother.

OP -- I am doing NFP because I don't want to continue taking hormones that interfere with the normal hormonal cycles in my body. Artificial or not, I currently have no health concerns that would lead me to take hormones, so why not let my body "do its thing"?

Calypso -- you know that I have to say something here. I'm very pro-vaccine. I've seen children in the emergency with completely avoidable infectious diseases, children who could have been playing at home like everyone else, but because their parents didn't get them vaccinated, they were in a scary hospital where doctors were debating placing a breathing tube down their throat. I am so happy that you and your family have been okay without vaccines (realistically, you all were benefiting from herd vaccination), but in general, the major reason for the huge drop in childhood mortality in the 20th century came from 1. clean drinking water, and 2. vaccinations to diseases like Polio, Measles, Mumps, Whooping cough, Diphtheria. Knowing that we can prevent senseless death, shouldn't we?

Eta: sorry, herd immunity, not herd vaccination

agapecarrie · May 2011

I haven't done a lot of research on vaccines, so I'm not weighing in on that,

however, research for some vaccines have been obtained from aborted fetuses. I'm not sure what extent, but there is an ethical issue involved too.

monkeysip · May 2011

When the Church says "natural" she does NOT mean "organic" or "found in nature". When the Church uses the word "natural," she means "part of HUMAN nature"... this is where we get natural law.

So when the Church says we shouldn't use contraception because its unnatural, the Church doesn't mean "artificial" or "inorganic". She means that we shouldn't use it because it purposefully destroys not only the way the human body is supposed to work, but in the case of condoms, it destroys the way humans are supposed to relate to each other.

This is about natural law, not what kind of foods you buy at the grocery store. The connection is false.

mica178 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-questions-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:579d14c0-dd4d-44c1-908b-cbcc81b0044cPost:73068ddb-64da-4e17-83b2-99e6df831ac7">Re: NFP Questions</a>:
[QUOTE]I haven't done a lot of research on vaccines, so I'm not weighing in on that, however, research for some vaccines have been obtained from aborted fetuses. I'm not sure what extent, but there is an ethical issue involved too.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

<div>The official Vatican stance is that while we should encourage pharmaceutical companies to do future research on non-fetal cell lines, to not vaccinate children and spare them from unnecessary infection/death is akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.</div>

lalaith50 · May 2011

ok...since this thread is now apparently about vaccines (lol)

I did come across this article this morning...

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/04/29/the-emergence-of-vaccine-induced-diseases.aspx

It's just so hard to know who to believe! Everyone is saying different things, and since *I* don't know anything medically, I can only believe who has the smartest-sounding article!

bibliophile2010 · May 2011

LaLaith, I think this vaccines are an issue with which you have to go with your own conscience.

My fiance is in medical school and he, as well as his professors, are all very much pro-vaccination. I am aware that there are some doctors who do not share this view, but I really think you need to go with your own heart and conversations with trusted medical advisors on this one.

bel138 · May 2011

For the OP: Yes, I really do try to get all organic produce, meats, personal care and cleaning products. I like to know what is in my food and where it comes from. So I eat a lot of whole foods, and not a lot of processed. The hormones in birth control are not bio-identical. And I do have hormonal issues. So the birth control would basically take my endocrine system, which is limping along, and completely shut it down and replace it with something that isn't the same as what I make. I would much rather FIX my endocrine system, and use bio-indentical hormones to supplement if necessary. Then when it's time for behbehs, we'll have options to help conception aside from the immediate suggestion of IVF, which is also against church teachings.

I also agree with what an OP said about Natural Law. It is "natural" in that sense as well.

I'm pro-vax. I have seen the terrible things that happen when children contract the diseases that had previously been eradicated. They are returning now that we have lost herd immunity. And we HAVE lost it for most childhood diseases. I think a lot of people under the age of about 70 have never seen the devastation of these diseases and don't feel like they're very threatening. Yes, all vaccinations have some risk, everything in medicine (and outside) does. But the side effects are rare, and the severe side effects are exceedingly rare. And the risk of severe side effects with vaccines is much lower than severe side effects of the diseases themselves.

@ calypso: You know I respect you, and I respect your opinion. What I have trouble understanding, however, is parents who are anti-vax essentially relying on herd immunity to protect themselves. It's like you don't want put your child at risk of vaccine complications, but you're plenty willing to let others do so and provide you with the benefits.

@lalaith: I am all for people educating themselves. However, that website touts itself as the internet's #1 provider of NATURAL medical information. I would say that's not exactly an un-biased source. They are using a lot scare tactics and language that is confusing to non-medical people. For example, about shingles, only people who have the chickenpox virus in their system can get shingles, so of course administering a vaccination of live attenuated chickenpox virus would increase the number of people who subsequently get shingles compared to people who haven't had the vaccine. And there is further proof that the risk of shingles is decreased when adults are exposed to children with chickenpox. So it's not ACTUALLY the vaccine causing the shingles, it's the decreased overall rate of chickenpox causing it. But they can spin it to make it sound like the vaccine increases shingles while not TECHNICALLY lying.

ootmother2 · May 2011

In 1975 , WHO, World Health Organization announced that small pox, a disease that claimed thousands of lives a year before the vaccine was invented, had been eradicated world wide.

Then, people stopped getting vaccinated and less than 10 years later, the disease came around again. Even if it was just one person not vaccinated, the disease could return. And it did.

Whooping cough has come back in spades because parents were all hung up on these "vaccine scares", didn't get very simple DPT shots. I think mica could tell you how many shots, I think it's 3.

No vaccination? Stay away from me and and, btw, have fun getting other children to play with your child. I certainly wouldn't allow it.

Ghoti · May 2011

I'm pretty sure this is MUD.

I'm working on using NFP, it's hard to be consistent though. I've seen firsthand the affects of using birth control, far more severely than the effects of eating hormone riddled beef or whatever other wild relativities you came up with. Therefore, I'm trying to avoid it.

Peace!

Calypso1977 · May 2011

oot, i'm sure your grandsons have probably been around other kids who arent vaccinated. there are MANY people who are opting to go vaccine free, believing that the risk of side effects is greater than the risk of contracting the disease itself. its just not public information, because most people dont go around announcing what medical procedures theyve had done recently. every state except, i think, west virginia, as exemption forms that daycares and schools are obligated to accept. its a lot more common thatn you think for someone to be un-vaccinated.

another very interesting thing is that the majority of folks who choose not to vaccinate are well educated persons, who are more inclined to do research and ask questions of their doctor rather than simply following the herd.

IMO, having a healthy child is more important than how many playmates he or she has. and again, an unvaccinated child can catch a disease from a recently vaccinated person, so the "i dont want my kid near yours" goes both ways.

also, if your kid IS vaccinated, why are you worried about them contracting something from a non-vaccinated kid? i mean, if they are vaccinated, that protects them, right??

mica178 · May 2011

It's actually more dangerous for a vaccinated person to be surrounded by a bunch of unvaccinated people than for a bunch of vaccinated people to be around a single unvaccinated person. That's part of imperfect immunity from vaccines and herd immunity. Again, when most people opt to vaccinate their kids, society as a whole benefits, but when large chunks of society decide to go vaccine-free, everyone is put at risk. As you mentioned, Calypso, sometimes we get a light response to infection or even just carry it, so we might not know we're infected, but we can certainly affect others.

And also, most vaccines are made from inactivated virus or bacteria, so a person who's been immunized is not contagious.

bel138 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-questions-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:579d14c0-dd4d-44c1-908b-cbcc81b0044cPost:40c6fa18-26a3-4191-96c1-22d99850f377">Re: NFP Questions</a>:
[QUOTE] also, if your kid IS vaccinated, why are you worried about them contracting something from a non-vaccinated kid? i mean, if they are vaccinated, that protects them, right??
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

I'm more worried about the non-vaccinated child giving something to an infant that is too young to start certain vaccine series. Which is happening with whooping cough.

mica178 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-questions-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:579d14c0-dd4d-44c1-908b-cbcc81b0044cPost:822266b7-4bd4-4bf1-9dc8-daf100a43f85">Re: NFP Questions</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFP Questions : I'm more worried about the non-vaccinated child giving something to an infant that is too young to start certain vaccine series. Which is happening with whooping cough.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

Absolutely.

Also, while Rubella is usually not harmful to most people who get it, if a pregnant woman is exposed to Rubella, it can cause miscarriage/fetal death or severe health problems for the developing baby. Rubella feels like a bad cold to most people, so they wouldn't know that they were potentially exposing others to something so horrible.

Davesgrl2011 · May 2011

Smallpox is a scary, almost always fatal disease. It looks like black chicken pox, but it is inside and outside your body. It is a slow, extremely painful, and extremely infectious disease that frankly scares me to death. Even if you survive you will most likely be severely deformed from scarring.

But it isn't an issue now because of vaccines.

The same goes for polio, malaria (in 3rd world countries), measles, mumps. All of these diseases are extremely infectious and extremely fatal. And extremely avoidable.

Everyone has a right to choose, but when you choose not to vaccinate your child you are also choosing to expose everyone elses children to these diseases. I thought that all schools required proof of immunization.

Anyway- back to NFP- I am not sure what my FI are going to do. We are using condoms at the moment (well, not exactly at the moment lol!) I am considering NFP because it is very important for me to have a family, and I am afraid that the pill could screw up my cycle. I also think that how a womans body works is just amazing.

I sense a little hostility in your post about how we rationalize NFP- and believe me, I get it. I was like "How dare the church poke their nose into my sex life?" And "My body is my own personal business, no one elses". But it is really about being natural, letting my body do what nature, or God, intended. I don't think anyone should have to rationalize their use of family planning, whatever that may be. I also don't think anyone should have to defend themselves, either. If you are offended by the idea of NFP, or by other women giving advice on how to use it, then don't read the literature or listen to the advice. If you are Catholic and you have to take Pre-Cana or go to NFP classes to get married in your church, then just listen politely or go to your happy place. You know what is right for you and your husband. Or listen and you might learn something. Like I did.

Hope this helps! Good luck!

ootmother2 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-questions-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:579d14c0-dd4d-44c1-908b-cbcc81b0044cPost:822266b7-4bd4-4bf1-9dc8-daf100a43f85">Re: NFP Questions</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NFP Questions : I'm more worried about the non-vaccinated child giving something to an infant that is too young to start certain vaccine series. Which is happening with whooping cough.
Posted by bel138[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the info bel & mica.

That's a pretty scary thought though. Am I correct in guessing that whooping cough is very serious in infants?

I remember a "no vaccine" neighbor's baby had whooping cough and spent weeks in NICU. I felt very sorry for that baby, he almost didn't make it and I wanted to bash some intelligence into the mother!

mica178 · May 2011

Whooping cough (that's the Pertussis part of the TDaP vaccine) is rarely deadly, but would you want to take the risk? For 99%, it ranges from a serious illness that can be managed at home with humidified air treatments and antibiotics to a life-threatening illness that requires hospitalization with IV fluids and antibiotics and sleepless nights for mom and dad. But for about 1% of infants who contract whooping cough, it's deadly. If I were a parent, I would vaccinate my children.

ootmother2 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-questions-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:579d14c0-dd4d-44c1-908b-cbcc81b0044cPost:40c6fa18-26a3-4191-96c1-22d99850f377">Re: NFP Questions</a>:
[QUOTE]oot, i'm sure your grandsons have probably been around other kids who arent vaccinated. there are MANY people who are opting to go vaccine free, believing that the risk of side effects is greater than the risk of contracting the disease itself. its just not public information, because most people dont go around announcing what medical procedures theyve had done recently. every state except, i think, west virginia, as exemption forms that daycares and schools are obligated to accept. its a lot more common thatn you think for someone to be un-vaccinated. another very interesting thing is that the majority of folks who choose not to vaccinate are well educated persons, who are more inclined to do research and ask questions of their doctor rather than simply following the herd. IMO, having a healthy child is more important than how many playmates he or she has. and again, an unvaccinated child can catch a disease from a recently vaccinated person, so the "i dont want my kid near yours" goes both ways. also, if your kid IS vaccinated, why are you worried about them contracting something from a non-vaccinated kid? i mean, if they are vaccinated, that protects them, right??
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

I'm curious why you keep addressing me when bel, bibli and mica stated medical facts to rebut your comments.

bibliophile2010 · May 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nfp-questions-1?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:579d14c0-dd4d-44c1-908b-cbcc81b0044cPost:10ac2f1d-9414-4810-88aa-655422edab3a">Re: NFP Questions</a>:
[QUOTE]Whooping cough (that's the Pertussis part of the TDaP vaccine) is rarely deadly, but would you want to take the risk? For 99%, it ranges from a serious illness that can be managed at home with humidified air treatments and antibiotics to a life-threatening illness that requires hospitalization with IV fluids and antibiotics and sleepless nights for mom and dad. But for about 1% of infants who contract whooping cough, it's deadly. If I were a parent, I would vaccinate my children.
Posted by mica178[/QUOTE]

My grandfather lost a brother to whooping cough when they were children. That fact alone makes me never, ever, want to take any risks for myself or my child with regards to the disease.

NFP Questions

Re: NFP Questions

Choose Another Board

Search Boards