Cohabitating before marriage

LuckyBrideToBe0013 · July 2010

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops put together this reference material about marriage preparation for cohabitating couples.

I found it interesting to read and felt more at ease after going through it. I encourage cohabitating couples or those considering it to give it a read. I'd like to point out that their statistics don't seem to totally make sense to me at times, but I was comforted to read the specific concerns of priests and how they are being instructed to handle it.

Sometimes it seems the Catholic Church shuns the issue without really explaining their specific concerns. I'm not sure how I feel about everything said in this article, but I am glad I was able to read more of an explanation.

I've noticed some of the MGs offering advice on some topics in previous posts -- I'd also like to hear any of your thoughts about this material.

http://www.usccb.org/laity/marriage/cohabiting.shtml

tldh · July 2010

I wouldn't rely on any of the statistics. They are 11 - 21 years old.

Riss91 · July 2010

I think the statistics are not necessarily the best example/reason/evidence for not cohabitating before marriage. They show correlation and not cause. For instance, if you're the type of person that is likely to cohabitate before marriage, you are more likely to be the type of person to be okay with divorce.

I'd like to see what the statistics are for cohabitating religious people who believe marriage is sacred and forever, or do not believe divorce is an option. I would think the statistics would not be so strong.

I think there are better reasons than the statistics for living separately before marriage, those being similar to the reasons why you should not have sex before marriage.

[Deleted User] · July 2010

I don't always agree with the statistics either. There are so many other factors when it comes to living together before marriage. For example, H took a job out of state shortly before we were engaged. After we got engaged, I moved out of state with him. We both weighed the options and that was the best thing for us to plan our wedding together. Yes, we could have waited longer to get married, but we didn't know when he would be back home. Neither one of us could constantly fly to see one another often enough to plan our wedding due to time off work, etc.

We felt strongly about not living together and it was going to be temporary until I got on my feet with a new job, etc. Well, that didn't work out and the pay in my field is significantly lower here than back home. Life doesn't always work out like you plan or think. In order to live on my own working in my field, I would of been in low income housing. I am not saying low income housing is a bad thing, but I think you can get the point I am trying to make. He decided to let me stay with him and I took any old job (still not enough to live on my own) so we could pay for our own wedding and have enough to live on.

I do believe there is temptation for sex with living together before marriage, but we had our own seperate bedrooms and bathrooms. I also think that same tempation can happen regardless of living circumstances. Our priest was understanding of this during our marriage prep.

So please don't jump to conclusions with statistics or judge people who live together before marriage bc you never know there individual situations.

[Deleted User] · July 2010

What bothers me about this article, and about the whole Christian view of pre-marital sex is summed up right here: "Such a relationship is a false sign. It contradicts the meaning of a sexual relationship in marriage as the total gift of oneself in fidelity, exclusivity, and permanency."

My vagina is a gift, and not just any gift, but the most valuable one I have...Oh, wait a second, Christianity is telling me that the spirit should be placed in value above the body, yet I'm being told that my most valuable gift is my body and that it should be saved, like a fine piece of jewelry, until I am married. I can give away basically everything else, my kindness, my laughter, my secret thoughts, my spiritual thoughts....but not my bits, that is the really sacred thing that should be saved for one man only.

I am a Christian, I'm a Catholic, but I can't get behind the "gift" argument. I don't want to start a hot-bed board riot here, and good for all of ya'll who wait until marriage, and for those of you who have sex happily before that time...BUT, I have a gift that I'm saving for marriage and that is the promise to love that man forever, regardless of the status/performance of my little gift.

LuckyBrideToBe0013 · July 2010

I was not trying to pass judgement about any person's life style. I was doing some research on where exactly the church stands and why after reading on this board. I currently live with my fiance. The church we were scheduled to be married in just changed leadership and rules, and I was concerned with what might happen to us.

I hadn't considered the idea that the church saw us as a risk in the way described there. I don't put much faith in stats, because they can be so easily manipulated. In fact, we do not fit into most of the stats labeled there, which made me feel more confident. I understand why the church is worried but that we are going to be fine.

I found the article from a website referenced on this board. I thought it was interested and wanted to share it, because I was hoping it would help someone else, too.

agapecarrie · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitating-before-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:2faf85b6-87e6-4498-af48-b5420f5f6d29Post:f46a2197-cd0c-4a10-bc2d-8d4aa5633597">Re: Cohabitating before marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]What bothers me about this article, and about the whole Christian view of pre-marital sex is summed up right here: "Such a relationship is a false sign. It contradicts the meaning of a sexual relationship in marriage as the total gift of oneself in fidelity, exclusivity, and permanency." My vagina is a gift, and not just any gift, but the most valuable one I have...Oh, wait a second, Christianity is telling me that the spirit should be placed in value above the body, yet I'm being told that my most valuable gift is my body and that it should be saved , like a fine piece of jewelry, until I am married. I can give away basically everything else, my kindness, my laughter, my secret thoughts, my spiritual thoughts....but not my bits, that is the really sacred thing that should be saved for one man only. I am a Christian, I'm a Catholic, but I can't get behind the "gift" argument. I don't want to start a hot-bed board riot here, and good for all of ya'll who wait until marriage, and for those of you who have sex happily before that time...BUT, I have a gift that I'm saving for marriage and that is the promise to love that man forever, regardless of the status/performance of my little gift .
Posted by greengirl09[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to respond to this whole thing, just to say that there is an answer, and its about being a gift of self, not a "little gift".

however,

Christianity does NOT say that the soul is above the body.That is a mannichiestic heresy. The body and soul are connected, interlinked, and one isn't more valuable than the other. The body makes manifest and visible what is invisible.

You can learn more about it in theology of the body.

Calypso1977 · July 2010

i personally think that the church should focus MORE on folks who have sex before marriage, rather than those that live together.

not everyone who lives together has sex (missy sue and I didnt) and not everyone who lives apart is abstaining.

while i understand priests who choose to not marry a couple who is living together, (and i fully support their right not not marry them) i think its very unfair that they will in turn marry another couple who isnt living together who may very well be having a heck of a lot more sex, even though that sex isnt considered "public" because they arent living together.

GulfCoaster · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitating-before-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:2faf85b6-87e6-4498-af48-b5420f5f6d29Post:a4845e0a-a0ac-4324-937f-93b4a48892a4">Re: Cohabitating before marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]i personally think that the church should focus MORE on folks who have sex before marriage, rather than those that live together. not everyone who lives together has sex (missy sue and I didnt) and not everyone who lives apart is abstaining. while i understand priests who choose to not marry a couple who is living together, (and i fully support their right not not marry them) i think its very unfair that they will in turn marry another couple who isnt living together who may very well be having a heck of a lot more sex, even though that sex isnt considered "public" because they arent living together.
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with you on that, Calypso.

Of course, the problem is that many of the non-cohabitating couples aren't exactly advertising to their priest that they are having sex. Even if the priest asks them directly whether they are sexually active, what if they're too offended or embarrassed or surprised to tell him the truth? I'm not really sure how you solve that problem.

Calypso1977 · July 2010

true, but again, he assumes they arent, just like they usually assume that those living together are. granted, all he can do is proceed on faith, in that the individual couples know whether or not they are in a state of sin or not and are adequately presenting themselves to receive sacraments.

meltoine · July 2010

There's more to the objection to living together than the temptation for sex. It also breeds scandal, which is a sin. We, as Catholics, are called to avoid giving scandal.

If you say to people (in word, deed, expression, etc) that you are Catholic, but also that you live together before marriage, you are saying that that's how Catholics behave. If we don't take our faith seriously why should anyone else?

Yes there are extenuating circumstances in every case and everyone thinks that they are the exception to the rule. But, you have to remember that your neighbor who sees you go to mass every weekend and also sees you come home with your FI at night every night doesn't necessarily know what your particular circumstances are and will assume that you are openly flouting the rules of your religion. Then she may lose some respect for the Catholic Church. That's really more what the Church objects to.

Like it or not, to anyone who knows you are Catholic, you and your behavior are ambassadors for the Church. Your behavior reflects on Her as a whole and every other Catholic in the world.

meltoine · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitating-before-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:2faf85b6-87e6-4498-af48-b5420f5f6d29Post:f46a2197-cd0c-4a10-bc2d-8d4aa5633597">Re: Cohabitating before marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]What bothers me about this article, and about the whole Christian view of pre-marital sex is summed up right here: "Such a relationship is a false sign. It contradicts the meaning of a sexual relationship in marriage as the total gift of oneself in fidelity, exclusivity, and permanency." My vagina is a gift, and not just any gift, but the most valuable one I have...
Posted by greengirl09[/QUOTE]

<div>The USCCB publication doesn't say anything about your vagina. </div><div>
</div><div>Fidelity means "strict observance to promises or duties" As in, on your wedding day you promise to be true in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health, and to love and honor all the days of your life. Fidelity simply means keeping that promise. The "gift of fidelity" is given to YH when you make those promises and every day thereafter that you keep them.</div><div>
</div><div>Exclusivity means "not accepting of something else" or in this case, someone. Those promises that you made cannot be made to anyone else.</div><div>
</div><div>Permanency means "perpetual or continued existence". Those promises last forever. </div><div>
</div><div>None of these is exclusively sexual. In fact, the USCCB publication (in your own quote) says, "a TOTAL gift of oneself", meaning your WHOLE self, not just your vagina. The USCCB is merely making the point the the consummation of the marriage is the culmination of all the other promises and gifts you have made and given each other. The marital sexual relationship cannot exist apart from these other promises and gifts upon which it is built. That's why cohabitation (defined in the beginning of the publication as "living together in a sexual relationship without marriage") is a false sign - the pre-marital sexual relationship is not built upon those promises and gifts because those promises and gifts have not been made or given yet. </div>

Riss91 · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitating-before-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:2faf85b6-87e6-4498-af48-b5420f5f6d29Post:5b6199a3-6c3c-4b48-aded-697175fc45e4">Re: Cohabitating before marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]There's more to the objection to living together than the temptation for sex. It also breeds scandal, which is a sin. We, as Catholics, are called to avoid giving scandal. If you say to people (in word, deed, expression, etc) that you are Catholic, but also that you live together before marriage, you are saying that that's how Catholics behave. If we don't take our faith seriously why should anyone else? Yes there are extenuating circumstances in every case and everyone thinks that they are the exception to the rule. But, you have to remember that your neighbor who sees you go to mass every weekend and also sees you come home with your FI at night every night doesn't necessarily know what your particular circumstances are and will assume that you are openly flouting the rules of your religion. Then she may lose some respect for the Catholic Church. That's really more what the Church objects to. Like it or not, to anyone who knows you are Catholic, you and your behavior are ambassadors for the Church. Your behavior reflects on Her as a whole and every other Catholic in the world.
Posted by meltoine[/QUOTE]

I think these messages should be more important for the Church to communicate than the statistics. I think people don't take the statistics seriously, because so many factors can sway the data one way or another. And, oddly enough, I think people lose respect for the Catholic church because of the poor communication of the beliefs behind the "rules" and for emphasizing aspects that are not as important. It also doesn't help when there are "Catholics" that do not live a Catholic life and therefore provide others a poor example of the church .

Theresa626 · July 2010

Calypso, I totally agree. We did not have sex before marriage but we did live together and I am happy that we waited to have sex. I am also happy about our choice to live together before marriage.

Calypso1977 · July 2010

i cried every night the first month we lived together, the adjustment was so hard for me after being on my own for 10+ years. i also moved from a town i loved to a town i hate and where i dont know anyone, etc. while i didnt like living together first, the way we did it worked for us, and i'm glad it wasnt the first month of my marriage that i spent crying every night!

[Deleted User] · July 2010

I think it's awesome that you found a way to live together without "doing the deed." Separate bathrooms and separate bedrooms was really smart- way to be! Living alone is very expensive nowadays, so it's often financially near-impossible to live separately (not to mention timing leases so that you could move in together at the time of your wedding).

"The USCCB publication doesn't say anything about your vagina. " Obviously...but by saying that "The USCCB is merely making the point the the consummation of the marriage is the culmination of all the other promises and gifts you have made and given each other. The marital sexual relationship cannot exist apart from these other promises and gifts upon which it is built."...It's like saying that the consummation is the most important thing, isn't it? I agree about the last part (which is what makes marital sex different from pre-marital sex) but I just think the church often puts too much emphasis on sex being the utlimate gift/treasure/ whathaveyou. Anyway...something I'll keep thinking about.

oogiejonz · July 2010

I take money from the collection basket every Sunday to pay my rent. Living alone is very expensive nowadays, so it's often financially near-impossible to pay my rent without stealing. I cried every night the first month I started stealing, the adjustment was so hard for me after paying my rent honestly for 10+ years. While I didn't like stealing at first, the way I did it worked for me, and I'm glad it wasn't the first month after my big raise that I spent crying every night!

Please don't jump to conclusions with statistics or judge people who steal money from the collection basket at church because you never know their individual situations.

Riss91 · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitating-before-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:2faf85b6-87e6-4498-af48-b5420f5f6d29Post:d0c49fdf-2bce-4f68-9342-6b1e2bee8029">Re: Cohabitating before marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]I take money from the collection basket every Sunday to pay my rent. Living alone is very expensive nowadays, so it's often financially near-impossible to pay my rent without stealing. I cried every night the first month I started stealing, the adjustment was so hard for me after paying my rent honestly for 10+ years. While I didn't like stealing at first, the way I did it worked for me, and I'm glad it wasn't the first month after my big raise that I spent crying every night! Please don't jump to conclusions with statistics or judge people who steal money from the collection basket at church because you never know their individual situations.
Posted by oogiejonz[/QUOTE]

While I see what you're getting at, I'm wondering if the comparison is apples to apples. Stealing is certainly considered a sin, but I'm not sure that living together before marriage (while remaining abstinent) is considered a sin. I was under the impression that it was not an ideal way of life for a Catholic, but that the sinful part is pre-martial sex, and not that act of living in the same dwelling. I certainly may be wrong on that.

oogiejonz · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitating-before-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:2faf85b6-87e6-4498-af48-b5420f5f6d29Post:2e4e8309-b49c-4f25-ba2f-590a1f5ad308">Re: Cohabitating before marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Cohabitating before marriage : While I see what you're getting at, I'm wondering if the comparison is apples to apples. Stealing is certainly considered a sin, but I'm not sure that living together before marriage (while remaining abstinent) is considered a sin. I was under the impression that it was not an ideal way of life for a Catholic, but that the sinful part is pre-martial sex, and not that act of living in the same dwelling. I certainly may be wrong on that.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

My 4 yr old daughter would really like to climb onto the dining room table and swing from the chandelier. But I'm such a big meany-head that I keep telling her it isn't allowed. At least as far as she is concerned I'm a big meanyhead. The possibility of it being potentially damaging to her is not really in her head, all she sees is that it is fun and something she wants to do.

When the church provides rules for the way we should live, it isn't because the church is a big meanyhead. It is because it believes that doing otherwise is potentially damaging. My 4 yr old daughter isn't old enough to rationalize why she should be allowed to do whatever she wants to do or argue that she isn't going to hurt herself, she knows what she is doing. We are all old enough to rationalize why we do what we do, and explain to the church why it isn't hurting anyone and is actually beneficial.

Calypso1977 · July 2010

ok, this thread took an odd turn....

Riss91 · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitating-before-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:2faf85b6-87e6-4498-af48-b5420f5f6d29Post:c1c1aff6-9b6a-42f5-8437-1b8c5cf0a239">Re: Cohabitating before marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]ok, this thread took an odd turn....
Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]
agreed.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitating-before-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:2faf85b6-87e6-4498-af48-b5420f5f6d29Post:c465cd8d-165e-412c-97b1-7d1c00d7dd08">Re: Cohabitating before marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Cohabitating before marriage : When the church provides rules for the way we should live, it isn't because the church is a big meanyhead. It is because it believes that doing otherwise is potentially damaging. My 4 yr old daughter isn't old enough to rationalize why she should be allowed to do whatever she wants to do or argue that she isn't going to hurt herself, she knows what she is doing. We are all old enough to rationalize why we do what we do, and explain to the church why it isn't hurting anyone and is actually beneficial.
Posted by oogiejonz[/QUOTE]

oogie - most of us here agree with you that the church provides rules for the way we should live, because it believes that doing otherwise is potentially damaging. Calypso's point was that the Church itself chooses to turn a blind eye to those who are NOT living together, though may be engaging in pre-martial sex and conversely shunning those who may be living together, but abstaining.

The point being made is that one "rule" may be more important to follow than another. Sure, you don't want your kid to jump off the bottom step onto the floor and you don't want them to throw knives up in the air and catch them, but certainly knives could cause more damage than a 6" fall off a step. Also, it would be unfair to punish your kid for both acts, if you only know they have committed one. Should you assume that if your child climbs onto the table, she will ALWAYS swing on the chandelier? Know what I mean?

GulfCoaster · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitating-before-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:2faf85b6-87e6-4498-af48-b5420f5f6d29Post:2e4e8309-b49c-4f25-ba2f-590a1f5ad308">Re: Cohabitating before marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Cohabitating before marriage : While I see what you're getting at, I'm wondering if the comparison is apples to apples. Stealing is certainly considered a sin, but I'm not sure that living together before marriage (while remaining abstinent) is considered a sin. I was under the impression that it was not an ideal way of life for a Catholic, but<strong> that the sinful part is pre-martial sex, and not that act of living in the same dwelling</strong>. I certainly may be wrong on that.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

Causing scandal (which a PP mentioned above) is itself a serious sin. See CCC paragraph #2284: "Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor's tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense."

I think that's the larger problem with abstinent cohabitation. Whether cohabiting couples are sleeping together or not, the vast majority of observers are going to assume that they are sleeping together. And when you have lots of church-going Catholics doing this, that begins to weaken the Church's witness in the eyes of observers, and lead observers to decide that maybe it's OK to live together (with or without sex) -- since look, the Church is still marrying all these cohabiting couples.

agapecarrie · July 2010

I think there are serious issues with cohabitation (even without sex) that are seriously underestimated.

Both moving and change in a status of a relationship are considered 2 of the 5 biggest stressors in life. When these 2 are in the way on top of having to give up a wedding day that has been emotionally and financially invested in, on top of the family pressure, the "freedom" that one has to say no to their vows is seriously decreased. When you can't say no, what does it mean when you say yes?

My point is...when you already own a couch, dog, house together, how free is someone to give their fullest yes at the altar?

Besides temptation and scandal (which are big enough reasons for me).

AP910 · July 2010

I don't usually/ever post here, just occasionally lurk, but I felt compelled to put my two cents in... FI and I just bought a house, and moved in together 5 months before our wedding because of the tax credit, and the fact that we didn't know how long our search would take and ended up buying a house quickly. My priest told me that "Good Catholics sometimes worry themselves way too much about it. Just live together without LIVING together, and be at peace." I didn't want to, and was very stressed out about it because I always wanted to wait until marriage to live together and always believed finances were just an easy excuse. While it does make me sad that I won't have moving in to look forward to anymore, I do have our marriage to look forward to, and I cannot imagine combining the stress of the house/moving with the wedding stress. I would have lost my mind. We can also work on making this house our home. We have seperate bedrooms, neither of which is our master bedroom, and that makes me very happy, because at least we will have that change, that special thing that will be ours together. Also, we will have been dating for years and everyone assumes scandal regardless. You have to make the choice whether or not to give in to temptation regardless of your circumstances.

Riss91 · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitating-before-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:2faf85b6-87e6-4498-af48-b5420f5f6d29Post:d3ff32c5-0042-41f7-bbc6-1405d6c1d0cd">Re: Cohabitating before marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Cohabitating before marriage : Causing scandal (which a PP mentioned above) is itself a serious sin. See CCC paragraph #2284: "Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor's tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense." I think that's the larger problem with abstinent cohabitation. Whether cohabiting couples are sleeping together or not, the vast majority of observers are going to assume that they are sleeping together. And when you have lots of church-going Catholics doing this, that begins to weaken the Church's witness in the eyes of observers, and lead observers to decide that maybe it's OK to live together (with or without sex) -- since look, the Church is still marrying all these cohabiting couples.
Posted by GulfCoaster[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reference, I truly wasn't sure! I wish the Church stressed these points more than the statistics because I think these are stronger reasons. I think it's true that people will assume you're having sex if you are sleeping together - but to be honest, even our best friends who knew how devout we were still thought we were having sex.

I think most people these days cannot fathom that people will remain abstinent through their 20s. And these people judge the Church for having rules that do not "keep up with the times", rather than say "Oh, all the Catholics I know are having sex, so therefore I've lost respect for the Church".

Calypso1977 · July 2010

AP910, that was us exactly! we moved into the master, with a brand new bed, when we came home from teh honeymoon.

while we didnt buy for the tax credit, we bought because my husband's job requires him to live a certain distance from the office - my apartment was large enough for the two of us, but would have been too far from his job. his apartment was not suitable for the two of us either. rather tahn be faced with living apart AFTER marriage, we started house hunting and found somethign relatively quickly. however, there was no way i could have afforded to pay rent at my apartment and my half of the mortgage so we both gave up the apartments. definteily not what i wanted to do, i really wanted to wait because of the appearances of impropriety.

the real funny thing is that even now that we're married, i stlil feel very odd sharing a bed with my husband when my mother is here for the weekend even though we are now "allowed" to.

Theresa626 · July 2010

agapecarrie, I fully agree that sharing finances makes it more difficult to break up and therefore, one would be more likely to marry a person out of convenience and necessity than for the right reasons. However, just because people are living together doesn't mean they are sharing finances either. I bought a house with my own money and had the title in my name only. He moved in and we never shared bank accounts or anything. I paid all of my own bills. He paid for me when we went out on dates, etc just like before we lived together. He had lived with his parents previously but he could certainly have moved back in with them if he had wanted to.

I'm not saying everyone should live together because I understand your point that everyone thinks you're having sex even if you're not. But, I'm just upholding what everyone else is saying that living together does not mean financial dependence or sexual activity.

GulfCoaster · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitating-before-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:2faf85b6-87e6-4498-af48-b5420f5f6d29Post:a825c182-9108-4959-aa4f-076b1fe83f27">Re: Cohabitating before marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Cohabitating before marriage : Thanks for the reference, I truly wasn't sure! I wish the Church stressed these points more than the statistics because I think these are stronger reasons. I think it's true that people will assume you're having sex if you are sleeping together - but to be honest, even our best friends who knew how devout we were still thought we were having sex. I think most people these days cannot fathom that people will remain abstinent through their 20s. And these people judge the Church for having rules that do not "keep up with the times", rather than say "Oh, all the Catholics I know are having sex, so therefore I've lost respect for the Church".
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

I think part of the reason many people judge the Church for having rules that don't keep up with the times, though, is that they see so many young Catholics dating and taking BCP and living together -- just like the rest of the world. So if everyone is doing this, then it looks even more like the Church is behind the times.

I'm not surprised your friends assumed you were having sex. (Good for you for waiting, though!) Honestly, I've had several friends who <em>were</em> living and sleeping with their boyfriends/fiances, and told their parents or grandparents they were only doing it to save money. It was a way of making the situation more palatable to their very devout families, even though it was a lie. And I'm sure others have known people who acted similarly... So when they run into a couple who really is living together without being sexually active, they tend not to believe them and assume that they are lying. I do think that a lot of this is about the appearance of things... and we are told to avoid even the appearance of sin.

Agapecarrie's point is also a good one. I was engaged once before, and I procrastinated calling it off because I was so embarrassed, worried what people would think, worried about cancelling the whole wedding, etc. I can't imagine trying to come up with the courage to end an engagement if the parties were living together (not only do you have to call off the wedding, but you have to move out and find a new place to live) and/or sharing finances. It would make things a lot harder.

Riss91 · July 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_cohabitating-before-marriage?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:2faf85b6-87e6-4498-af48-b5420f5f6d29Post:fa3df708-49bc-4dd6-9b81-8bd8a684fd41">Re: Cohabitating before marriage</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Cohabitating before marriage : I think part of the reason many people judge the Church for having rules that don't keep up with the times, though, is that they see so many young Catholics dating and taking BCP and living together -- just like the rest of the world. So if everyone is doing this, then it looks even more like the Church is behind the times.
Posted by GulfCoaster[/QUOTE]

I agree. I think because society has pretty much determined that sex and living together before marriage is absolutely necessary, it's difficult for Catholics to come and be an advocate against it. We were personally laughed at by our friends and told there is "no way" they could ever wait that long or not live with someone before they decided to marry them. It's really sad, because I think that stigma associated with those who wait convinces the younger generations that it is impossible or at the very least unpopular. That and the fact that not many people come out and vocalize that they are/have waited in order to prove it can be done because society has almost deemed that shameful. People get this idea that anyone who follows these rules must look like a Duggar and not live in "reality". It saddens me.

bibliophile2010 · July 2010

I agree that this is an issue on which Catholics need to be "counter-cultural." Just living together as a married couple has become so common and expected, and it saddens me. My non-Catholic family cannot believe that FI and I are not living together and will not until after the wedding. They also do not believe that my (also engaged) sister is not having sex, and would certainly not believe that I'm not if I discussed it with them.

I also agree that there is a level of flexibility, trust, listening and understanding that is necessary to deal with these case-by-case situations. I understand the Church's position and its desire to be true to itself and its teachings rather than "the times." However, I think that when real people have to make real choices, the result is not always as clear as it would be in a perfect world. I think Calypso's (and others who have maintained separate bedrooms) is a good example of this. They take an imperfect situation and do their best with it, trying to live according to God's will. I just don't have an issue with that, personally.

Kristin789 · August 2010

>>Of course, the problem is that many of the non-cohabitating couples aren't exactly advertising to their priest that they are having sex.

I just wanted to add that in some states, living together is illegal -
yeah, it really is... see below -
and the priest does not want to put his professional position in jeopardy by dealing with people who are breaking the law.
I do know one Catholic couple who told the priest that they were living together, and the priest said that it was illegal in their state so he could not marry them, and then they made the decision to go to another church and LIE to the priest there so that he would marry them.

Living together was illegal in every state up until 1970, and it is still illegal in 7 states - and if you answer YES to the job application question of cohabitating, you will not be considered for the job because you will be considered as committing a misdemeanor sex offense which disqualifies you for the job. The 7 states are Florida, Michigan, MIssissippi, North Carolina, North Dakota, Virginia, and West Virginia.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/bush/7_states.htm

Cohabitating before marriage

Re: Cohabitating before marriage

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