This just grinds my gears

Shaye526 · September 2010

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/22/palin-abortion-rape-incest_n_731385.html

For real? I can understand being pro-life to a certain extent (although I'm not) but wanting to ban abortions even in the case of rape/incest? What year is this? And how can the group that backs this be against government control of everything, yet rally for the government to control what we do with our bodies? I guess it's pick and choose to serve your own interests. How do people take them seriously?

I have so many questions my head is about to explode.

Let's discuss...

AllAboutTheBenjamin · September 2010

I don't have any words to express how sickened I am by this...

LedZeppelin · September 2010

This kind of thing makes me crazy. There are much bigger issues that politicians should be trying to fix, like the economy and education, that affect everybody rather than abortion and gay marriage (or gays in the military), which only affect those involved.

It's. Just. Stupid.

vegasgroom · September 2010

Of course Palin opposes it, her daughter's on again off again is probably really her son lol.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · September 2010

I haven't read the article, but I can understand the perspective. I mean, a life if a life. And if your pro-life to the point where you believe abortion is murder, just because a pregnancy is the result of rape or incest shouldn't change the fact that it's murder. I have to respect that. I also have respect for the consistent life philosophy of the Catholic church - against abortion, euthanasia, the death penalty and unjust war.

Now, personally, I completely disagree with it and am very, very much pro-choice.

[Deleted User] · September 2010

Had I of gotten pregnant after my own experience, I can guarantee I would have ended it one way or the other, legal or not. And I don't care who judges me for that.

I understand that it all depends on your definition of when life begins, and I can even understand that someone who is pro-life is still pro-life in the event of rape or incest. But I will never be convinced that it is wrong. I will always be pro-choice.

vegasgroom · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_this-just-grinds-gears?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:fab0317d-364c-41fa-8e18-4291ee32689fPost:d7452781-72ef-4659-b1be-e35cd63f98a7">Re: This just grinds my gears</a>:
[QUOTE]I haven't read the article, but I can understand the perspective. I mean, a life if a life. And if your pro-life to the point where you believe abortion is murder, just because a pregnancy is the result of rape or incest shouldn't change the fact that it's murder. I have to respect that. I also have respect for the consistent life philosophy of the Catholic church - against abortion, euthanasia, the death penalty and unjust war. Now, personally, I completely disagree with it and am very, very much pro-choice.
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]

I think if you're pro-life to that extent, because of believing its murder, then you have to be opposed to the death penalty too, but of course she and the GOP are not opposed to that. I'm personally pro-choice, pro-deathpenalty and pro-guns, yeehaw! lol

dmiller9274 · September 2010

I don't think I'm allowed to log into Huffington Post, I've been banned under so many user names I think I'm blocked.

LedZeppelin · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_this-just-grinds-gears?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:fab0317d-364c-41fa-8e18-4291ee32689fPost:a5607da6-40f4-4832-a702-668bdedf24ea">Re: This just grinds my gears</a>:
[QUOTE]Had I of gotten pregnant after my own experience, I can guarantee I would have ended it one way or the other, legal or not. And I don't care who judges me for that. I understand that it all depends on your definition of when life begins, and I can even understand that someone who is pro-life is still pro-life in the event of rape or incest. But I will never be convinced that it is wrong. I will always be pro-choice.
Posted by Seshat411[/QUOTE]

This is a big reason why it should be legal. If it's done legally, it is also done safely. If it is illegal, it forces women who have been raped to find another way to do it, which will likely put them in danger one way or another.

TurtlesAllTheWayDown · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_this-just-grinds-gears?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:fab0317d-364c-41fa-8e18-4291ee32689fPost:0ff8ace8-25a6-4ff6-9617-afc9c360d56f">Re: This just grinds my gears</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This just grinds my gears : I think if you're pro-life to that extent, because of believing its murder, then you have to be opposed to the death penalty too, but of course she and the GOP are not opposed to that. I'm personally pro-choice, pro-deathpenalty and pro-guns, yeehaw! lol
Posted by vegasgroom[/QUOTE]

Oh, I agree with that. And while I haven't researched the positions of the "tea party candidates" enough to know their stand on the death penalty, I can assume it's pro.

I'm against the death penalty, but pro- assisted suicide. My mom is very pro-choice, pro-death penalty, pro-assisted-suicide, pro-gun rights. Kill 'em all and let God sort them out is her philosophy!

AllAboutTheBenjamin · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_this-just-grinds-gears?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:fab0317d-364c-41fa-8e18-4291ee32689fPost:041da062-0988-49f3-93a9-e6b9cf2b72f5">Re: This just grinds my gears</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This just grinds my gears : This is a big reason why it should be legal. If it's done legally, it is also done safely. If it is illegal, it forces women who have been raped to find another way to do it, which will likely put them in danger one way or another.
Posted by LedZeppelin[/QUOTE]

EXACTLY.

I don't think abortion is great but people are going to obtain them whether it's lawful for them to or not. I'd much rather them have a safe and legal abortion than go to drastic lengths to get one, like Gerri Santoro.

vegasgroom · September 2010

Ah, yes, I'm for assisted suicide too. After college I worked at a cancer hospital for several years, and I have crazy respect for the optimism and determination some of those patients show, but I think if I was in the situation and pain of some of the ones with a terminal condition, I'd want to take that way out, regardless of the judgement I'm sure would ensue shortly thereafter.

MVJP10 · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_this-just-grinds-gears?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:fab0317d-364c-41fa-8e18-4291ee32689fPost:0ff8ace8-25a6-4ff6-9617-afc9c360d56f">Re: This just grinds my gears</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This just grinds my gears : I think if you're pro-life to that extent, because of believing its murder, then you have to be opposed to the death penalty too, but of course she and the GOP are not opposed to that. I'm personally pro-choice, pro-deathpenalty and pro-guns, yeehaw! lol
Posted by vegasgroom[/QUOTE]

lmao Vegas! I believe that sarah Palin is an idiot and disagree with pretty much anything she has to say eventhough I consider myself conservative. She's a great role model: lied to the media about her kid being pregnant at first and feels that it's ok to leave your political responsibilities whenever you feel like it - don't finish a term in office if you don't want to!

LedZeppelin · September 2010

I'm pro choice, pro gay marriage, pro assisted suicide, and was previously against the death penaltly. However, now that I have a child, I'm pretty sure if someone were ever to harm him, I'd want them killed. I'd just hope the police got to the person before I did.

vegasgroom · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_this-just-grinds-gears?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:fab0317d-364c-41fa-8e18-4291ee32689fPost:cd2c115b-9703-475e-a716-fcb086181b73">Re: This just grinds my gears</a>:
[QUOTE] and feels that it's ok to leave your political responsibilities whenever you feel like it - don't finish a term in office if you don't want to!
Posted by MVJP10[/QUOTE]

Kind of like pro athletes who refuse to work when they want a contract renewal, while their current contract is still in effect. I wish doing that would result in you becoming ineligible to play, and be paid, for whatever league you're in. And politicians who bail out of the position they convinced the voters to elect them to should have something similar; no running for anything else for two years, etc.

Celles · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_this-just-grinds-gears?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:fab0317d-364c-41fa-8e18-4291ee32689fPost:99d0fa7c-3c86-4705-aa70-4ca1208d68c7">Re: This just grinds my gears</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This just grinds my gears : This may be an unpopular opinion, but I really don't understand people who are pro-life except in cases of rape or incest. Life either starts at conception or it doesn't. Abortion is either murder or it isn't. I don't see how the circumstances surrounding conception change that.
Posted by jamierobin[/QUOTE]

Agreed. 100%.

For the record, I'm pro-choice. But I recognize that it either is or isn't murder; there's no gray area here.

MissDuke2012 · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_this-just-grinds-gears?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:17Discussion:fab0317d-364c-41fa-8e18-4291ee32689fPost:041da062-0988-49f3-93a9-e6b9cf2b72f5">Re: This just grinds my gears</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This just grinds my gears : This is a big reason why it should be legal. If it's done legally, it is also done safely. If it is illegal, it forces women who have been raped to find another way to do it, which will likely put them in danger one way or another.
Posted by LedZeppelin[/QUOTE]

This. The mom's safety is always first.

But here's another point, does the father have rights to the child? It's still his child, his sperm. What if he decides he wants to pursue a relationship with the child? Should he pay child support?

jasmineh7777 · September 2010

I agree with what Mery said.

As for the pro-life except for rape, this is how my family member explained that view to me, and I'm paraphrasing here:

There is a major difference between consenting to unprotected sex and then having an abortion because you chose not to take precautions, and a person who does not consent to sexual intercourse and gets pregnant.

I'm not sure I agree with the above opinion, but I also don't judge them for it.
I am of the mind that having an abortion is never an easy decision, and is probably painful enough without me adding any judgement and hellfire to it.

LedZeppelin · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_this-just-grinds-gears?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:fab0317d-364c-41fa-8e18-4291ee32689fPost:37ea3bec-591b-4b92-a0ba-74548dedafbf">Re: This just grinds my gears</a>:
[QUOTE]I agree with what Mery said. As for the pro-life except for rape, this is how my family member explained that view to me, and I'm paraphrasing here: There is a major difference between consenting to unprotected sex and then having an abortion because you chose not to take precautions, and a person who does not consent to sexual intercourse and gets pregnant. I'm not sure I agree with the above opinion, but I also don't judge them for it. I am of the mind that having an abortion is never an easy decision, and is probably painful enough without me adding any judgement and hellfire to it.
Posted by jasmineh7777[/QUOTE]

This exactly.

Shaye526 · September 2010

Wow, good responses guys and gals. Things were brought up that I didn't even think about initially. I think what bothers me the most is aside from the abortion debate itself (and i do agree there's no grey area), the hipocrisy of it just burns me up.

Whether you agree with it or not, the Tea Party's ideals are based upon less government control. Yet some of their major leaders have no problem spouting off about THIS particular subject being regulated by the government. And it's all based upon their own (mostly religious) beliefs, which is supposed to be separate from government altogether.

While I'm pro-choice I completely respect someone being pro-life. But fine, be pro-life and don't have an abortion if you feel strongly about it. But don't tell me or anyone else that I can't. Mind your own business, it has no effect on your own life, KWIM? The Tea Party is also very outspoken about rights being taken away, but has no problem trying to take away rights from others if they don't like it. It's BS. And I don't mean to just call out the Tea Party, because plenty of other political figures do the same. It just so happens the TP is in relation to the article.

DodgersBride · September 2010

I didn't read the article and doubt what is says is going to change my mind. I am pro-choice. I don't think anyone should be able to tell someone what they can and can not do with their bodies.

I haven't had an abortion and can't say for sure if I would or wouldn't. I think abortion is a hard decision and I don't think the government or any one else should make it even harder on a person.

I feel that if they make it illegal ppl will still seek them and not have them done properly. Which is why I voted in my state that doctors can not notify the parents of teenagers above a certain age who want to have an abortion. I think it was teens over the age of 16.

Shaye526 · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_this-just-grinds-gears?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:fab0317d-364c-41fa-8e18-4291ee32689fPost:4cdfa879-a264-495b-93b2-2befe0bd0a2e">Re: This just grinds my gears</a>:
[QUOTE]Shaye- I don't think it is as simple as mind your own business though. I, personally, don't feel the need to force my beliefs on anyone. However, if you really, truly consider abortion murder, then how can you not speak up about it? I think people often do it in the wrong way, but I respect the belief behind it. Let me put it this way, I really, truly, think that gay people should be allowed to marry. I tell everyone that brings it up that I feel that way. Not to speak up would be going against my core values. My church does candle light vigils and pray for an end to abortion. I don't participate, but I really respect the way in which they show their opposition. It is not IN YOUR FACE, but I think it is sincere.
Posted by jasmineh7777[/QUOTE]

Noted. I'm not saying don't speak up about things, everyone has the right to do so. But it's completely different for someone to go ahead and take away that right from someone. If politicians want to stand on soap boxes all day long and say they think abortion is murder and it's wrong, then fine. But making it possible for the government to prevent someone from doing what's the right thing for them is completely different to me.

NatesGirl16 · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_this-just-grinds-gears?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:fab0317d-364c-41fa-8e18-4291ee32689fPost:4cdfa879-a264-495b-93b2-2befe0bd0a2e">Re: This just grinds my gears</a>:
[QUOTE]Shaye- I don't think it is as simple as mind your own business though. I, personally, don't feel the need to force my beliefs on anyone. However, if you really, truly consider abortion murder, then how can you not speak up about it? I think people often do it in the wrong way, but I respect the belief behind it. Let me put it this way, I really, truly, think that gay people should be allowed to marry. I tell everyone that brings it up that I feel that way. Not to speak up would be going against my core values. My church does candle light vigils and pray for an end to abortion. I don't participate, but I really respect the way in which they show their opposition. It is not IN YOUR FACE, but I think it is sincere.
Posted by jasmineh7777[/QUOTE]

Jas took the words right out of my mouth :).

People have the right to vocalize their beliefs; others have the right to ignore their arguments. I don't condone pro-lifers who use violence or shock value to communicate their viewpoints, but I wouldn't say "Mind your own business" to someone who is opposed to abortion and makes that clear (nonviolently).

I do value the separation of church and state, almost above all other freedoms we are granted, which is why this is a difficult issue for me.

bethsmiles · September 2010

Honestly I have that opinion. I believe abortion is murder no matter what and that's why I'm pretty vocal about my opinions that it shouldn't be legal (feel free to flame away). But I'm not going to judge you or tell you are going to hell if you get one (and I truly don't believe that) I've never been in that position but I know its a tough decision for most women and that is emotionally and mentally tolling. I disagree with the way a lot of pro-life people behave and express thier opinons (bombing abortion clinics is extremely hypocritical - all life is life even if people disagree with you.) I'm against the death penalty as well. I'm pro-gay marriage and I think they should be able to adopt, you may not want that baby but someone might and I don't care if they are gay or straight as long as the baby is alive and being taken care of in a loving home.

However, after saying all that I realize that the world isn't perfect and there are horrible things that go on every day and I realize that we live in a world where people can have a million different views so compromise is necessary. I will never get an abortion period but I think that there is definitely room for compromise in cases of rape because a woman who has gone through that deserves all of our sympathy and no judgement and if abortion is the decision she feels is really best for her (though I disagree) then I would be content if abortion were illegal with the exception of rape.

Shaye526 · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_this-just-grinds-gears?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:fab0317d-364c-41fa-8e18-4291ee32689fPost:a5fe22bb-718c-47e4-ab86-a017277c7c5b">Re: This just grinds my gears</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This just grinds my gears : Jas took the words right out of my mouth :). People have the right to vocalize their beliefs; others have the right to ignore their arguments. I don't condone pro-lifers who use violence or shock value to communicate their viewpoints, but I wouldn't say "Mind your own business" to someone who is opposed to abortion and makes that clear (nonviolently). I do value the separation of church and state, almost above all other freedoms we are granted, which is why this is a difficult issue for me.
Posted by NatesGirl16[/QUOTE]

I didn't mean "mind your own business" as in don't talk about it or have an opinion. I don't believe in God in the traditional sense and I'm not religious, but if I was a politician I wouldn't be speaking out about shutting down places or worship just because I don't believe in it or agree with it, you know what I mean?

Mainly, I just don't think that a party who's against government control should be advocating for more government control based upon something like this.

LedZeppelin · September 2010

I really don't feel like there is that much seperation of church and state on certain issues. If there were, gay marriage, would not be an issue at all.

Celles · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_this-just-grinds-gears?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:fab0317d-364c-41fa-8e18-4291ee32689fPost:37ea3bec-591b-4b92-a0ba-74548dedafbf">Re: This just grinds my gears</a>:
[QUOTE]I agree with what Mery said. As for the pro-life except for rape, this is how my family member explained that view to me, and I'm paraphrasing here: There is a major difference between consenting to unprotected sex and then having an abortion because you chose not to take precautions, and a person who does not consent to sexual intercourse and gets pregnant. I'm not sure I agree with the above opinion, but I also don't judge them for it. I am of the mind that having an abortion is never an easy decision, and is probably painful enough without me adding any judgement and hellfire to it.
Posted by jasmineh7777[/QUOTE]

Well, sure. There's a difference. But what does that difference have to do with the life/potential for life/collection of rapidly multiplying cells that may eventually become a human being?

Absolutely nothing.

If you are opposed to abortion because you believe that life begins at the moment of conception and abortion is murder -- okay, fine. I get that. But if the pro-life side is right and the aforementioned collection of rapidly multiplying cells constitutes life, then it ALWAYS constitutes life and is ALWAYS entitled to protection under the law, regardless of whether it was conceived willingly or not. The mother's life and circumstances are irrelevant.

If you don't believe that abortion is murder, per se, and just think it's lousy to use it as a form of birth control... well, at that point you're just attempting to punish the mother for failing to live her life according to your own moral standards, and you need to get over yourself.

(I don't mean you specifically, of course; this is an open-ended "you.")

NatesGirl16 · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_this-just-grinds-gears?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:fab0317d-364c-41fa-8e18-4291ee32689fPost:b244d2d8-722d-4310-8a74-5a351a90f486">Re: This just grinds my gears</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: This just grinds my gears : Noted. I'm not saying don't speak up about things, everyone has the right to do so. But it's completely different for someone to go ahead and take away that right from someone. If politicians want to stand on soap boxes all day long and say they think abortion is murder and it's wrong, then fine. But making it possible for the government to prevent someone from doing what's the right thing for them is completely different to me.
Posted by Shaye526[/QUOTE]
I completely get what you are saying.

At the same time, if a person truly believed abortion is murder, I wouldn't be surprised that they would seek legislation to prevent what amounts to murder, in their eyes.

The conundrum is that we have a separation of church and state, so that no one set of morals/religious beliefs dictates the actions of others. But, according to our laws, murder isn't just a religious no-no, it's prohibited by law. If you think that abortion is murder, then it follows you would seek to remove that right from others.

The way it has been argued to me is this (paraphrasing):
If the best thing for me would be to end this person's life, should I do it? If ending this person's life would make my life better/easier/whatever, should I do it?

That is the rationale.

I'm not saying that rape victims should be denied abortions. In fact, I'm not standing on one or the other side of the issue, for clarification. Just looking at both sides, all devil's advocate-ish :).

Shaye526 · September 2010

Very true Nates! : )

It's a tough issue and I definitely understand the other side's point of view. Actually, all the responses were really helpful. Like I said, there's some things that I didn't even think about. It just makes me sad. As a PP mentioned, there are so many more things that are directly affecting everyone in the country. And it pisses me off that politicians focus on these topics because they know they are serious hot spots with people, while they ignore the huge issues that never seem to be fixed.

NatesGirl16 · September 2010

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_snarky-brides_this-just-grinds-gears?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:17Discussion:fab0317d-364c-41fa-8e18-4291ee32689fPost:9f1818a3-ba85-4f7e-9e1b-f84e90f7b9cb">Re: This just grinds my gears</a>:
[QUOTE]That was me! It bewilders me how the unemployment rate can be so high and the public education system can be so dismal, yet people are worrying about whom marries whom.
Posted by LedZeppelin[/QUOTE]

I know! That's the aspect that gets to me. Everyone recognizes that abortion is a hot topic tied in with a variety of emotions and beliefs, which means it's not an easy fix. At the same time, whether one agrees with abortion or not, it's not a life or death situation for the majority of the country. If someone goes out and has an abortion tomorrow, it's not going to kill me. If someone loses their job and has to collect unemployment, it has a much more direct effect upon my personal well-being.

Politicians, let's work on things that are directly impacting us now, harming our economy and well-being, rather than shiit-stiring old issues.

jasmineh7777 · September 2010

Nates- The hard core pro-lifers I know do consider it a life or death issue. And it is the issue that decides who they will vote for. They will not vote for someone who is pro-choice. Period.

And haven't you heard, the recessions over. :P

This just grinds my gears

Re: This just grinds my gears

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