Catholic Weddings

XP: Gay and Catholic (Possibly offensive to some)

"Ben" and "Jerry" live in a state that has marriage equality for same-couples. Both men grew up in extended Catholic families, attended Catholic schools and universities, and have been active in parish and Catholic charitable organizations. Their parents, who I will call "Bob: and "Carol" and "Ted"and "Alice" have been very supportive of the two men

Ben and Jerry have started planning for their marriage ceremony. Since a Catholic ceremony with all the bells and whistles -- a nupital Mass with a papal blessing -- isn't possible in the foreseeable future, they are planning their ceremony in Unitarian church with an Unitarian cleric as the offficiant. As Carol says the Unitarian ceremony will probably be the only wedding for Ben that she and Bob will be able to witness.

Since Ben and Jerry consider themselves to be active Catholics, they would like to try to have as many Catholic touches in  their wedding ceremony as possible with out going overboard or seeming tacky.

Would it be appropriate to have a statue of the Blessed Mother brought into the Unitarian church and have one of the bridesmaids (probably one of their nieces) or perhaps one of the mothers present the flowers to the Madonna.

Would it be appropriate for Shubert's "Ave Maria" to be performed.? What other music or readings would be recommended for the ceremony?

Both Ben and Jerry have extended family members who are priests. Both would like these relatives to participate in the ceremony, but are afraid that the priests might face consequences from their superiors ... such as in the case of the priest to participated in a sex marriage ceremony in New York City. Any suggestions as to how these men could participate in the ceremony would be much appreciated.

(Bob's uncle is a Religious order priest who plans to attend the ceremony. Bob's uncle said that his order has been supportive of LGBT equality; and if his bishop disapproves of his attendance at a same sex wedding, he plans to take whatever punishment that is to be handed out. The priest-uncle also added he is in such demand in replacement ministry, he doubts that his bishop would attempt to punish him.

(Jerry's cousin-the-priest was hemming and hawing as to whether he would attend. His other, Alice's sister, told her son that 1) he will attend. 2) he can wear one of his father's suits if he doesn't want to wear his clerical blacks; 3) he will give a nice wedding present; and 4) most importantly, he will not embarass the familu)

In short, any suggestions to make a gay wedding in an Unitarian church as Catholic as possible without going over the top would be most welcome.

Thanking everyone in advance
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Re: XP: Gay and Catholic (Possibly offensive to some)

  • lalaith50lalaith50 member
    1000 Comments Third Anniversary 5 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited January 2013
    Is this an actual situation? Or only hypothetical? Either way, I don't see the discussion ending well on this board, so I at least don't feel like expending any energy on a hypothetical situation that's probably going to end in a flame war...

    And if it's an actual situation and you're the person it's referring to...then I don't see you liking the answers of the vast majority of posters on here, so again, why would we bother.
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  • Catholic rituals and symbols are not just a cultural backdrop for pretty pictures and nice things to have. They have deep meaning, and are extended way beyond what appears on the surface.

    Mary is the embodiment of the church. The church is Christ's bride. You cannot have to Christs marry each other. To have any kind of Mary symbol at this is a sham and is deeply offensive. It is desecrating. 

    EPH 5 explains this very well. By the way, it isn't just the forseable future that 2 people of the same sex can't marry. It will never happen in the church. 

    Please do not put the priests in a position of having to break of vow by disobeying. 
  • To be blunt, there's no way to have a gay wedding as "Catholic as possible".  I know it sucks, but it is how it is.  Like others have mentioned, it's actually EXTREMELY disrespectful to bring Catholic touches into a ceremony like this.

    I'm just curious why two gay men who have every intent to marry one another consider themselves active Catholics?  I don't mean this in a snarky way... There's such a false image out there of Catholics hating gay people that most gays won't touch the Church with a 50 foot pole.
  • I know at least two devout Catholic men who identify as gay. Both are celibate. I have nevere heard of a gay couple being Catholic. I suppose it's not that far fetched since plenty of "devout" Catholic couples live and sleep together before marriage, but given that the Church is much more public about Her views on gay couples than fornicating couples, it does seem really odd. That said, I agree with Carrie too. You can have any kind of Catholic ceremony outside of a church, let alone in honor of a gay couple. Please, please, please do not ask these priests to participate. You put them in an awful spot between being rude to their family memebers and upholding a sacred vow that they have sworn to live out for the rest of their days. It's like asking a married man to cheat on his wife for you. Just please don't.
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  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_xp-gay-and-catholic-possibly-offensive-to-some?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5c5707d9-32d1-4c44-8ab4-e86dfd10a5bdPost:2ac7f8e3-4613-458e-888d-00f231572cd6">Re: XP: Gay and Catholic (Possibly offensive to some)</a>:
    [QUOTE] . You put them in an awful spot between being rude to their family memebers and upholding a sacred vow that they have sworn to live out for the rest of their days<strong><em><u>. It's like asking a married man to cheat on his wife for you</u></em></strong>. Just please don't.
    Posted by meltoine[/QUOTE]

    <div>Awesome analogy and dead on right.</div>
  • Can you have the priests who are related give a dinner blessing at the reception instead? They'd still be involved in the day and relationship (I'm assuming they're supportive), without asking them to be a part of the ceremony which could have negative ramifications for them.

    If the two men are practicing Catholics then I honestly don't see any harm in incorporating whatever they want into the ceremony. These individuals aren't incorporating things because they're pretty - they're incorporating them because it's what they believe. There's a huge difference there. 
  • chelseamb11chelseamb11 member
    2500 Comments Third Anniversary 25 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited January 2013
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_xp-gay-and-catholic-possibly-offensive-to-some?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5c5707d9-32d1-4c44-8ab4-e86dfd10a5bdPost:f3788181-cb4f-4141-a4b5-7442e73b36fc">Re: XP: Gay and Catholic (Possibly offensive to some)</a>:
    [QUOTE]Can you have the priests who are related give a dinner blessing at the reception instead? They'd still be involved in the day and relationship (I'm assuming they're supportive), without asking them to be a part of the ceremony which could have negative ramifications for them. If the two men are practicing Catholics then I honestly don't see any harm in incorporating whatever they want into the ceremony. These individuals aren't incorporating things because they're pretty - t<strong>hey're incorporating them because it's what they believe. </strong>There's a huge difference there. 
    Posted by BethP937[/QUOTE]

    But it's not what they believe.  Agape usually is more articulate on things like this than I am,but every law and practice in the church is intermingled.  It's like having a chain necklace.  Get rid of one of those links and you no long have a necklace, you just have a long string of sort of connected stuff.  I know there are plenty of people who identify as Catholic who don't necessarily agree with or follow all of the laws of the church.  But two wrongs do not make a right.  You cannot pick and choose which parts of Catholicism to believe.  If you truly believe Catholicism is the way to go, you have to follow it as closely as possible and not openly and consciously go against it with no effort to change.

    There is nothing wrong with anyone who is gay being Catholic.  But that is when they are called to a life of celibacy.  The priests in question cannot be supportive of a relationship like this, marriage or not.  For the priests to not "cheat on their wife" (awesome analogy), they should be lovingly guide and support this couple in the laws of the Church and help them achieve a life of celibacy.  THAT is support.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_xp-gay-and-catholic-possibly-offensive-to-some?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5c5707d9-32d1-4c44-8ab4-e86dfd10a5bdPost:f3788181-cb4f-4141-a4b5-7442e73b36fc">Re: XP: Gay and Catholic (Possibly offensive to some)</a>:
    [QUOTE]Can you have the priests who are related give a dinner blessing at the reception instead? They'd still be involved in the day and relationship (I'm assuming they're supportive), without asking them to be a part of the ceremony which could have negative ramifications for them. If the two men are practicing Catholics then I honestly don't see any harm in incorporating whatever they want into the ceremony. These individuals aren't incorporating things because they're pretty - they're incorporating them because it's what they believe. There's a huge difference there. 
    Posted by BethP937[/QUOTE]

    If any couple (same sex or different sex) get married outside the church, they are not practicing catholics. They have publicly turned away from the church. On top of that, 2 people of the same sex doing so is even further spitting on the very church they claim to be a part of. 

    <div>As Chelsea said, it isn't what they believe. That's the whole problem. Mary is the embodiment of the church. So, "honoring " mary is a lie, because the church does not approve of what they are doing. </div>
  • s-aries8990s-aries8990 member
    Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its 1000 Comments Name Dropper
    edited January 2013
    I am a proponent for gay marriage, but it is not possible for Catholics. If they want tocontinue to identify as Christians, that is one thing, but these "Catholics" cannot partake in holy matrimony as they are going against the teachings. You cannot make a non-Catholic wedding more "Catholic"

    I think it's ok for the couple to privately ask that their priest relatives to attend, but they must be fully understanding that these men will be unable to accept and participate. They should accompany the request with a statement of understanding - they know that they can't attend and do not expect these men to so blatantly go against their morality, but would like to extend the invite to them anyway. By asking them in private, I think it will quash some of the "rudeness" that other family members feel.

    ETA: I do think that the couple should include whatever readings or songs they find personal meaning in.
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  • To the OP - I hope the people in question have a wonderful day and blessed marriage. Everyone has to practice their faith the best we can. I'm glad that my faith allows me room to see shades of gray. I pray that others will find the same grace.

    You might find some more practical, less absurdly rigid, advice on other boards, here or somewhere else on the Internet. It's funny - I live in a very conservative diocese and our pre-cana leader (head of family life for the diocese) was so much more practical, compassionate, and realistic than many on this board.


  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_xp-gay-and-catholic-possibly-offensive-to-some?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:5c5707d9-32d1-4c44-8ab4-e86dfd10a5bdPost:24994339-f464-4530-a22c-8cbae9d522e0">Re: XP: Gay and Catholic (Possibly offensive to some)</a>:
    [QUOTE]To the OP - I hope the people in question have a wonderful day and blessed marriage. Everyone has to practice their faith the best we can. I'm glad that my faith allows me room to see shades of gray. I pray that others will find the same grace. You might find some more practical, less absurdly rigid, advice on other boards, here or somewhere else on the Internet. It's funny - I live in a very conservative diocese and our pre-cana leader (head of family life for the diocese) was so much more practical, compassionate, and realistic than many on this board.
    Posted by BethP937[/QUOTE]

    This is very offensive to me.  No one on here said anything rude.  I'm glad that you found a church that caters to you, but that doesn't make it okay for you to come on here and call our faith absurdly rigid.  Honestly, this is the reason there are so few catholics.  Because the catholic church isn't a "feel good" church.  It teaches what is true, not what is popular, which I guess makes it unpopular.  What was true 1000 years ago is true today and that is why the catholic church doesn't "change" it's teachings.  Honestly, I would rather be a part of a church that points out, "hey what you are doing is wrong" not "well society thinks it's okay so will change our views so it's okay too." If you want to be a part of a "feel good" church then that's great, I'm glad you found the church for you, but you don't need to come onto a catholic board and call our faith absurd  :(
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  • Beth - your comment is uncalled for. The information provided here is the doctrine and rules of the Catholic religion - not the "impractical" opinions of the ladies on this board. Calling the Catholic Church's doctrine "absurd" is NOT compassionate. It is also not compassionate to lie to someone asking a question.

    Would we all love to believe that everything everyone wants at anytime is good and has no consequence? Sure! But it isn't the truth. Practicality isn't something that can change the truth. We are required to be honest. I'm sure we can all try to be more compassionate in our methods of communication.

    We all struggle with faith and the lines and when they are crossed. I hope and pray that we can all be understanding of each other's faith and not force someone to go against their conscience for our own purposes.
  • edited January 2013
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_xp-gay-and-catholic-possibly-offensive-to-some?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5c5707d9-32d1-4c44-8ab4-e86dfd10a5bdPost:24994339-f464-4530-a22c-8cbae9d522e0">Re: XP: Gay and Catholic (Possibly offensive to some)</a>:
    [QUOTE]To the OP - I hope the people in question have a wonderful day and blessed marriage. Everyone has to practice their faith the best we can. I'm glad that my faith allows me room to see shades of gray. I pray that others will find the same grace. You might find some more practical, less absurdly rigid, advice on other boards, here or somewhere else on the Internet. It's funny - I live in a very conservative diocese and our pre-cana leader (head of family life for the diocese) was so much more practical, compassionate, and realistic than many on this board.
    Posted by BethP937[/QUOTE]<div>
    </div><div>I am just a lurker on this board, and I'm probably not as educated about Catholicism as others on this board. That said, I felt compelled to say that this comment is out of line. If anything, the Catholic Church is more tolerant toward homosexuals than most other faiths. </div><div>
    </div><div>Also, you say your pre-cana leader in your diocese has compassion toward all people, which I don't doubt, but I would be incredibly surprised if said leader would say anything different if approached by this issue in real life.</div><div>
    </div><div>To imply people aren't being compassionate and lack grace when they simply offer to the OP what the church says isn't fair.</div><div>
    </div><div>Naturally, if I have said anything out of line or offensive to the regular members on this board, please tell me and I will delete it.

    </div>
  • s-aries8990s-aries8990 member
    Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its 1000 Comments Name Dropper
    edited January 2013
    Beth, unfortunately the Catholic church cannot see every situation in shades of gray. Sure, a priest can be compassionate to an individual's situation, he can show love and sympathy for their personal battles, but that does not change the rules and teachings of the Church. Your personal faith may allow for more leniency (mine does in some instances) but you cannot disrespect those more devout than you by calling them absurd and rigid.

    There ARE forms of Christianity that allow for same-sex marriage but Catholicism isn't one of them. I have struggled to understand why same-sex marriages aren't allowed in the church, but after lurking on this board for a while I now understand. That doesn't change my views on state legislation, but the laws of the state and of the church are run by two different governments, if you will.
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  • To be compassionate to all people and to say that homosexuals cannot marry are not mutually exclusive.  Some might argue that disallowing the practice is preventing the individuals from sin and therefore MORE compassionate.  It's certainly not an easy conversation to have (coming from someone whose aunt and sister are gay and in relationships), but it's definitely not "absurd."

    The only thing I will add to the comments about the OP is that I find it really troublesome that someone would tell a priest who is struggling with the moral implications of attending this wedding that he is potentially an "embarrassment" to the family.
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  • There are theologians who believe that if someone thinks people of the same sex can marry, then they themselves can't validly marry because they don't know what marriage is. There has to be a giver and a receiver. There is a gift given, and one must be physically able to receive it. It's not simple biology. It images Christ's love initiator of gift for the church receiver. Christ cannot marry himself I beg anyone who doesn't get this to read Christopher west theo of the body for beginners and good news about sex and marriage This isn't "absurd". This is how the circle of life works.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_xp-gay-and-catholic-possibly-offensive-to-some?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:5c5707d9-32d1-4c44-8ab4-e86dfd10a5bdPost:eecc6034-ffa5-4c20-8886-1a60f57c7bfa">Re:XP: Gay and Catholic Possibly offensive to some</a>:
    [QUOTE]There are theologians who believe that if someone thinks people of the same sex can marry, then they themselves can't validly marry because they don't know what marriage is. <strong>There has to be a giver and a receiver. There is a gift given, and one must be physically able to receive it.  </strong>It's not simple biology. It images Christ's love initiator of gift for the church receiver. Christ cannot marry himself I beg anyone who doesn't get this to read Christopher west theo of the body for beginners and good news about sex and marriage This isn't "absurd". <strong>This is how the circle of life works.
    </strong>Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    Is the church opposed to post-menopausal women or otherwise infertile heterosexual couples marrying?  If the answer is no, then how does the "circle of life" argument justify denying homosexual marriage? 

    To the OP, other Christian faiths have reverence for Mary and have other traditions that may be similar to Catholic traditions that the couple could incorporate without having to use Catholic rituals per se.  I believe many Episcopal churches are open to LGBT couples and they may be able to find some meaningful rituals there.
  • Riss91Riss91 member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 25 Love Its Name Dropper
    edited January 2013
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_xp-gay-and-catholic-possibly-offensive-to-some?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5c5707d9-32d1-4c44-8ab4-e86dfd10a5bdPost:7a7e6fc7-d3ef-479a-a9cb-4e812bc237a4">Re:XP: Gay and Catholic Possibly offensive to some</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re:XP: Gay and Catholic Possibly offensive to some : Is the church opposed to post-menopausal women or otherwise infertile heterosexual couples marrying?  If the answer is no, then how does the "circle of life" argument justify denying homosexual marriage? 
    Posted by femme55@hotmail.com[/QUOTE]

    Homosexuals cannot inherently in nature reproduce together. This is the basic reason for the Church to oppose these relations. A heterosexual couple couldn't marry either if it was determined with absolute certainty that there was no possible way for them to physically conceive (but this extremely rare as it is very difficult to be absolutely certain about infertility).

    ETA: If someone becomes infertile through the natural cycle of life, they are not "punished" for it by not being allowed to marry.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_xp-gay-and-catholic-possibly-offensive-to-some?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5c5707d9-32d1-4c44-8ab4-e86dfd10a5bdPost:cf432efd-29ed-44d3-9be4-5470993f2f89">Re:XP: Gay and Catholic Possibly offensive to some</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re:XP: Gay and Catholic Possibly offensive to some : Homosexuals cannot inherently in nature reproduce together. This is the basic reason for the Church to oppose these relations. A heterosexual couple couldn't marry either if it was determined with absolute certainty that there was no possible way for them to physically conceive (but this extremely rare as it is very difficult to be absolutely certain about infertility). ETA: If someone becomes infertile through the natural cycle of life, they are not "punished" for it by not being allowed to marry.
    Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

    <div>So if a woman who has had a hysterectomy, say, due to cancer, and never married, then meets the love of her life, she cannot marry in the Catholic church since it would be impossible for them to conceive?</div>
  • In Response to Re:XP: Gay and Catholic Possibly offensive to some:[QUOTE]In Response to Re:XP: Gay and Catholic Possibly offensive to some:In Response to Re:XP: Gay and Catholic Possibly offensive to some : Is the church opposed to postmenopausal women or otherwise infertile heterosexual couples marrying?nbsp; If the answer is no, then how does the "circle of life" argument justify denying homosexual marriage?nbsp; Posted by femme55hotmail.comHomosexuals cannot inherently in nature reproduce together. This is the basic reason for the Church to oppose these relations. A heterosexual couple couldn't marry either if it was determined with absolute certainty that there was no possible way for them to physically conceive but this extremely rare as it is very difficult to be absolutely certain about infertility.ETA: If someone becomes infertile through the natural cycle of life, they are not "punished" for it by not being allowed to marry. Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

    Actually, this isn't quite true. Couples that cannot consummate the marriage cannot validly marry. Infertility is not an impediment.

    Again, the giver receiver relationship is what is necessary for fruitfulness physical and/or spiritual.
  • thanks carrie! I was trying to say that, I got it all mucked up! Found this and I think it is a good explanation:

    "Sterility is not an impediment to a regular marriage. Not being able perform the marital act (impotence) is.

    If a woman has a hysterectomy, she can still carry out the marital act. If a man has his testicular cancer and has the cancer removed he can still (with or without the assistance of drugs) preform the marital act.

    If a man is permanently impotent a certain key organ is not able to do what it needs to do for that act now or any time in the future. Since that act is crucial to a normal marriage then that person can not fulfill the obligations of marriage, therefore he can not promise to do something that he is incapable of doing.

    This is not to be confused with someone who is only temporarily impotent or someone who can take medicine to cure impotence."
  • TXKristan - I don't think the reason for her sterilization (or the fact that she was sterilized) has any impact at all. It is solely the "consummation" that is the factor. Impotence is much more rare for women than men.

    Get ready for some TMI:

    From the New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law (edited by the Canon Law Society of America):

    "Impotence is the incapacity of a spouse to perform a complete conjugal act. To be potent, a man must have a penis, be capable of maintaining an erection long enough to penetrate the vagina at least partially, and to ejaculate there; a woman must have a vagina and be capable of receiving the erect penis."
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_xp-gay-and-catholic-possibly-offensive-to-some?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:5c5707d9-32d1-4c44-8ab4-e86dfd10a5bdPost:1abd2b9d-3e6c-43c8-86d1-6f42e4d97dc4">Re: XP: Gay and Catholic (Possibly offensive to some)</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: XP: Gay and Catholic (Possibly offensive to some) : So technically, the woman post-cancer with a hysterectomy can be free to marry as they can still have sex?
    Posted by TXKristan[/QUOTE]

    Yup!
  • I believe that as long as he can ejaculate, he can marry...

    With regards to the hysterectormy/vasectomy for health reasons vs.fertility reasons - I think that would matter in determining if the procedure was sinful or not.
  • In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_xp-gay-and-catholic-possibly-offensive-to-some?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:5c5707d9-32d1-4c44-8ab4-e86dfd10a5bdPost:c8a36560-2839-4d4b-9c48-bc20d1a210fe">Re: XP: Gay and Catholic (Possibly offensive to some)</a>:
    [QUOTE]Well, I guess a devout Catholic man couldn't marry a disabled wife who couldn't have sex, then, eh? The love they have for each other that transcends physical need is meaningless? THey must be able to "do it" in order to marry?<strong> I'm infertile, and I know it. It's another slap in the face to be considered valuable only for your fertility.  Infertility is painful enough without that.</strong> My husband is a UU minister, and his church has many homosexual Catholics and gay members of other faiths who are devoutly Christian, but were driven out of their churches.  Still others married out of the faith - such as Catholics married to Jews. Tell your gay friends they can use any Catholic custom they wish.  The UUs will NOT judge them for it.
    Posted by RetreadBride[/QUOTE]


    " Infertility is not an impediment."
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  • Infertility =/= disabled.

    Seriously it drives me bonkers when people just read whatever they want.  If you want to come to this board and argue, please do so, but please do it a) civilly and b) without putting words in someone else's mouth..

    Also, BIG SURPRISE a Catholic forum is full of women who study and follow Catholic doctrine to the letter!
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  • As long as the disabled woman has a vagina, she is free to marry.

    The Church doesn't impede those with infertility issues from being married. I did misuse my infertility/impotence terminology above, so please read my follow-up responses.
  • [QUOTE]<strong>Well, I guess a devout Catholic man couldn't marry a disabled wife who couldn't have sex, then, eh?</strong> <strong>The love they have for each other that transcends physical need is meaningless?</strong> THey must be able to "do it" in order to marry? I'm infertile, and I know it.<strong> It's another slap in the face to be considered valuable only for your fertility.</strong>  Infertility is painful enough without that. 
    Posted by RetreadBride[/QUOTE]
    Nobody said ANY of the bolded text. ugghhhhhh.....
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  • It is not a slap in the face. It is an honor. It is amazing how people under value and take no significance from their bodies. The bodies manifest the soul. Being a woman actually means somethingthe honor of being a species that is able to carry a child is the highest honor of creation. the crown.
  • JPII said in "letter to women" that even women who can't bear children can experience the "fullness of motherhood". JPII does not choose words accidentally.
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