Catholic Weddings

would you?

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Re: would you?

  • rfelix14rfelix14 member
    10 Comments
    edited December 2011

    As a practicing Catholic who is getting married in a full length Catholic mass, I have several members of my WP who are not Catholic. In fact, my MoH is Baptist. Our priest is aware and has no qualms about it, he's only said that he cannot offer her communion, which she is aware of and accepts. The point is that she's been there to support me through my worst but also to celebrate my happiness (i.e. my wedding).
    Being part of someone's WP isn't about sharing the same religious beliefs, but rather about serving as a support system during this dynamic time in that person's life. Supporting someone who doesn't share your religious beliefs doesn't make you any less of a Catholic. Wouldn't you comfort  a person regardless of if they were Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, etc if they were facing the loss of a family member? I use that as an example, becuase different religions regard death and the afterlife differently. But regardless, you would still offer whatever support you could give.
    This is a wonderful and exciting time for your brother and his fiance and you should be able to enjoy and celebrate this wonderful decision they have made together!

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  • Calypso1977Calypso1977 member
    Knottie Warrior 2500 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    i feel that not attending at all (while that may be the right thing to do religion wise) would ostracize me from the family.  neglecting to be an attendant, however, i hope would not.

    my H as BM would be an official witness.... i feel he would be making the bigger mistake, but again, i cant tell him what to do, only inform him of waht our priest decides/recommends and then let him decide from tehre.

    i truly hope this doesnt even end up being an issue, but it was good to think about since at any time we could be presented with this situation from any of our catholic friends.  this just hit closer to home, being a relative and all.
  • edited December 2011
    I have to say-- I'm really impressed with the responses to this and the open-minded-ness and lack of judgemental responses. I had no idea about some of the rules involved, to be honest, despite being born and raised catholic.

    I guess my response should be taken with a grain of salt, since there are quite a few church teachings that I disagree with to begin with. That said, I would absolutely stand up for my family in this situation. In fact, my brother divorced a few years ago, has begun annullment proceedings. He has since met and fallen in love with a lovely Catholic woman. They are both in their mid thirties and want to start a family, so they aren't waiting years for the annullment to go through. I am not in the wedding party but if they asked I would support them 100%. I think that is actually a little more extreme than Calypso's situation, though, as he is still technically married in the church.

    I'm curious about some of the rules though. For example, I have a friend who was a fairly devout Catholic, but converted to Judeaism before she married her husband. She took this very seriously and did a lot of soul searching about it. I had no problem standing up for her as MOH, even though she was baptized Catholic. Technically, was I not supposed to?

    Also, what about two non-religious people. If they have a civil ceremony, are Catholics not supposed to attend or stand up for them? I'm really curious about this. Obviously, everyone has to make a decision that feels right to them, but I think it's always nice to know the letter of the law when making a decision.
  • Calypso1977Calypso1977 member
    Knottie Warrior 2500 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    I'm curious about some of the rules though. For example, I have a friend who was a fairly devout Catholic, but converted to Judeaism before she married her husband. She took this very seriously and did a lot of soul searching about it. I had no problem standing up for her as MOH, even though she was baptized Catholic. Technically, was I not supposed to?


    i think technically, if you follow the "once a baptized catholic, always  a catholic" rule then no, you shouldnt have.  but, i personally woudl ahve in this instance since the person was a convert and had no intentions of practicing catholicism again. 

    i woudl also stand up for a civil ceremony or a protestant ceremony provided there was no baptized practicing catholic (even if its  only a few times a year they attend) getting married.  if you've made a choice to no longer be catholic, that's one thing.  in this case, my BIL is not making the choice to be no longer catholic.  he woudl still plan to identify with the catholic faith.

  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_would?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:98a9f4d7-9625-4f7e-93ab-753e1f217da3Post:bd34fc16-f2d4-43c1-a0b4-266280f81295">Re: would you?</a>:
    [QUOTE]i feel that not attending at all (while that may be the right thing to do religion wise) would ostracize me from the family.  neglecting to be an attendant, however, i hope would not. my H as BM would be an official witness.... i feel he would be making the bigger mistake, but again, i cant tell him what to do, only inform him of waht our priest decides/recommends and then let him decide from tehre. i truly hope this doesnt even end up being an issue, but it was good to think about since at any time we could be presented with this situation from any of our catholic friends.  this just hit closer to home, being a relative and all.
    Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

    The church doesn't say you shouldn't attend at all, as long as you do your part in making sure they know your attendence does not mean condoning or support of the actions. There is charity involved here, in seeing that if you were not attend at all, you could completely cut off any hope for future reconciliation and influence in their lives.

    The official bm and taking part in some sort of role in the ceremony is where the line is drawn becasue that is taken as condoning.
  • mbcdefgmbcdefg member
    10000 Comments 5 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_would?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:98a9f4d7-9625-4f7e-93ab-753e1f217da3Post:bd34fc16-f2d4-43c1-a0b4-266280f81295">Re: would you?</a>:
    [QUOTE]i feel that not attending at all (while that may be the right thing to do religion wise) would ostracize me from the family. 
    Posted by Calypso1977[/QUOTE]

    This part really rubs me the wrong way ... not against you Calypso, but that this would be an official stance from the Church (or at least the way that some devout people may interpret it). Boycotting a loved one's wedding because it's not a Catholic wedding isn't a loving, Christian thing to do in my eyes.
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  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_would?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:98a9f4d7-9625-4f7e-93ab-753e1f217da3Post:8bbc5c08-097c-4984-85f2-08d7f4bc86aa">Re: would you?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: would you? : This part really rubs me the wrong way ... not against you Calypso, but that this would be an official stance from the Church (or at least the way that some devout people may interpret it). Boycotting a loved one's wedding because it's not a Catholic wedding isn't a loving, Christian thing to do in my eyes.
    Posted by mbcdefg[/QUOTE]
    Clarification: a non-catholic wedding by non-catholic people is fine.

    A CATHOLIC person must be married in Catholic form. Everyone understands following the laws of their state regarding marriage, driving, and other laws, but it seems people have a hard time respecting the fact that Catholics have their rules and a proper form for the very sacraments that make up what it is all about.

    If a random non-Christian couple were to try to "get married" without a proper person legally designated by the state to marry them, such as a JOP, and without a marriage license, they aren't legally married. The same goes for the spiritual aspects too, regarding a Catholic wanting to marry outside of the church. It's not a real marriage...real meaning where it counts...with God. God isn't joining them. When someone is baptized, they are signed up, "in the book", with an indelible mark on the soul.

    The real scenario is here, is that this couple (although they don't understand this) is making a public statement that they turning their back on their faith. That is why it is even in canon law that a Catholic cannot be an official participant in the whole situation.

    What is loving about enabling or staying quiet when someone is hurting themselves or others? Telling someone who steals that stealing is wrong is the loving and Christian thing to do.
  • mbcdefgmbcdefg member
    10000 Comments 5 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_would?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:98a9f4d7-9625-4f7e-93ab-753e1f217da3Post:6e16bd3d-dc91-4a20-829a-cf71e6718bc4">Re: would you?</a>:
    [QUOTE]When someone is baptized, they are signed up, "in the book", with an indelible mark on the soul. The real scenario is here, is that this couple (although they don't understand this) is making a public statement that they turning their back on their faith. That is why it is even in canon law that a Catholic cannot be an official participant in the whole situation.
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]


    If they were baptized as infants, they have no choice in the matter. If they decide as adults that they don't wish to be Catholic anymore, then that's their choice. The BIL has to stick to the Catholic faith his whole life, just because his parents decided to baptize him into it? What about people who convert to Catholocism later in life ... should they be denied that right because they were baptized into another faith as children?

    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_would?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:98a9f4d7-9625-4f7e-93ab-753e1f217da3Post:6e16bd3d-dc91-4a20-829a-cf71e6718bc4">Re: would you?</a>:
    [QUOTE]What is loving about enabling or staying quiet when someone is hurting themselves or others? Telling someone who steals that stealing is wrong is the loving and Christian thing to do.
    Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

    How can you compare stealing to someone leaving a religion that they no longer believe in? Stealing is against the law, and it hurts the person being stolen from. If someone no longer participates in a religion they don't believe in, that only affects themselves. And as to whether or not that person's soul is "hurt" by that action isn't up for us humans to decide.

    I don't mind if an individual feels that another person is wrong for not having a Catholic wedding or whatever, but I honestly take offense to the suggestion that it's up to us to TELL those people that they are wrong. Canon Law and all these specific religious guidelines are set by <strong>humans.</strong> Humans with agendas. It's not my place to judge the condition of someone else's soul. I'm not going to tell a loved one, who is otherwise a good person who leads a righteous life, that (s)he is wrong and hurting his/her soul just because a bunch of men in Vatican City tell me that I'm obligated to believe that.
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  • mica178mica178 member
    5000 Comments Fourth Anniversary 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    mbcdefg, I believe the issue is that Calypso's brother still considers himself Catholic.  As such, he is expected by the church to get married in the church.  There are exceptions, but he would still be expected to do premarital counseling (pre-cana) and go through the correct process of getting dispensations for marrying a non-Catholic, etc. 

    I do confess to occasionally committing cafeteria Catholicism, and I'm working on improving that.  I think it's totally fine to pick another religion if you disagree with the expectations of Catholicism -- Catholicism isn't for everyone.  But having read your above comments and having read multiple books on Vatican II as part of my marriage prep, I know that you are wrong about a lot of points in the religion.  I believe Catholicism is all about free will.  I couldn't force a loved one to do anything, but I am accountable for my own actions.

    As a good Catholic sister-in-law, Calypso is expected to express her concerns that BIL is not following canon law rather than stay quiet and watch him break them.  What if he didn't know what he's supposed to do?  Perhaps he would appreciate Calypso's guidance.  Her role is to act in a way that is true to her beliefs, and that includes calling out BIL if he's heading in the wrong direction and not standing numbly by if she feels uncomfortable with his actions.  She's not trying to force him to do anything. 
  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    Late here.Very interesting conversation.

    I'm very suprised at the ease some posters can throw around  'He will be living his life in the state of mortal sin..."their shaming children...etc.

    mbcdefg has made the best point and that our religion is about loving others as we serve the Him. 

    There are really only two people who know that a mortal sin is being committed, God and the person involved. Not one other person can be sure.

    Do you really believed that God is Catholic?

    My priest asked me this one time when I attended a 2 hour sunday service at a protestant church because my niece was being baptized.  I later asked him if that counted as keeping the Sabath and he laughed and asked me that very question.
    Why do you think God is Catholic?

    I certainly would not have to ask anyone if I loved my brother enough to attend his wedding, albeit outside of the church.  I would already know the answer in my heard.

    We serve the Lord by loving others as ourselves.
  • edited December 2011
    Interesting....I never knew people felt this way.  I guess I'm in the minority because I'm with mbcdefg on this one.  If I supported them as a couple I would most definitely be honored to be in the WP no matter what the religion circumstances are.   They are grown adults who can make their own choices.  Their religion, or lack there of, is not for me to judge and doesn't concern me IMO.  If you do not feel comfortable in standing with them then I would definitely not.  I would not want someone standing with me who is thinking the whole time that we are doing something wrong.  I do appreciate how the ladies disagree and remain respectful of one another on this board.
  • edited December 2011
    I would stand up in the wedding party.  I do not see how someone else's standing with the Church is any of my business.
    My Grandparents on their wedding day.
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    Repeat this to your self: My Wedding Party is made of my family and friends and I should treat them as such.
  • Jasmine&RajahJasmine&Rajah member
    Knottie Warrior 100 Comments 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    ootmother, the teaching on mortal sin in this particular case in clear.  Calypso's brother-in-law, as a Catholic, would be living in mortal sin IF he marries outside the Church.  There's no room for debate on that, so I don't feel that mentioning it was judgemental or unfair.  (Please know that I say this with no snark whatsoever.)  :-)

    Of course, it is his decision entirely - but that does not change what the Church teaches.  He is accountable for his choices when he stands before our Savior, just as we all are. 

    As far as Calypso's role in all of this, I have to maintain what other ladies have said.  Loving one another - and loving Christ - is not about sticking our heads in the sand so as not to be offensive, but rather, to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:25) and "plant seeds."  The rest, once we have done our part, is up to the Lord!

  • ootmother2ootmother2 member
    Tenth Anniversary 5000 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_would?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:98a9f4d7-9625-4f7e-93ab-753e1f217da3Post:c868febe-1844-4320-a2f3-11ec14d4b40e">Re: would you?</a>:
    [QUOTE]ootmother, the teaching on mortal sin in this particular case in clear.  Calypso's brother-in-law, as a Catholic , would be living in mortal sin IF he marries outside the Church.  There's no room for debate on that, so I don't feel that mentioning it was judgemental or unfair.  (Please know that I say this with no snark whatsoever.)  :-) Of course, it is his decision entirely - but that does not change what the Church teaches.  He is accountable for his choices when he stands before our Savior, just as we all are.  As far as Calypso's role in all of this, I have to maintain what other ladies have said.  Loving one another - and loving Christ - is not about sticking our heads in the sand so as not to be offensive, but rather, to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:25) and "plant seeds."  The rest, once we have done our part, is up to the Lord!
    Posted by Jasmine&Rajah[/QUOTE]

    You are absolutely correct in judging YOUR decisions as area all other individuals by their concience.  Neither the Church nor another person may make that judgement for you.

    Have you even been asked "do YOU feel that is wrong?".    I have been asked that by my priest and quite often I am told that I am the one to determine if my decision is right or wrong.  Goingi against your concience is wrong, quite often is is the worst thing to do.

    Better yet, think "does God think that is the wrong thing to do in these circumstances?"  That's your answer and they aren't always what's in the "book"

    I don't think that God always thinks in black and white. There are many gray areas in our life and we were give the ability to deal with them.
  • agapecarrieagapecarrie member
    Knottie Warrior 1000 Comments 100 Love Its Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_would?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:98a9f4d7-9625-4f7e-93ab-753e1f217da3Post:07fd6d2e-02f8-4cd3-b241-96314f4c5c46">Re: would you?</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: would you? :: How can you compare stealing to someone leaving a religion that they no longer believe in? Stealing is against the law, and it hurts the person being stolen from. If someone no longer participates in a religion they don't believe in, that only affects themselves. And as to whether or not that person's soul is "hurt" by that action isn't up for us humans to decide. I don't mind if an individual feels that another person is wrong for not having a Catholic wedding or whatever, but I honestly take offense to the suggestion that it's up to us to TELL those people that they are wrong. Canon Law and all these specific religious guidelines are set by humans. Humans with agendas. It's not my place to judge the condition of someone else's soul. I'm not going to tell a loved one, who is otherwise a good person who leads a righteous life, that (s)he is wrong and hurting his/her soul just because a bunch of men in Vatican City tell me that I'm obligated to believe that.
    Posted by mbcdefg[/QUOTE]

    I wasn't comparing stealing to marrying outside the church, I was giving an example as something that is a sin and is harmful. You saying "its against the law" proves my point. Marrying outside the church for a Catholic is "against God's law". It is outlined by the church which is how we know it is harmful. Christ gave the keys to heaven to peter, the first pope and said "whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven, upon this rock (petra-peter) I will build my church, the gates of hell will not prevail against it". There was one catholic church until the anglican split then the reformation.

    It is all over scripture and church teaching abou spreading the good news of the gospel-- the works of mercy (admonishing sinners-(warning)) It is a loving thing to do to care for other's souls. This is NOT judgement. We ARE to judge behavior, not people. Again, back to stealing...telling someone that the behavior is wrong is not judgement. Telling someone who steals that stealing is wrong is not judgement.

    This  "rule" wasn't made up with an agenda...that makes no sense. All of the sacraments in the church have to have proper form and matter to be valid. Baptism done with water and the right words, the Eucharist consecrated with a priest and the correct words, confession done in the right form. All the more important to keep marriage in the proper form. God does the joining, not the state.
  • Jasmine&RajahJasmine&Rajah member
    Knottie Warrior 100 Comments 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    I'm earnestly trying to understand what you're saying, ootmother, but unfortunately, I do not.

    Reason being is this - if we were discussing some other matter of Sacred Mystery, something the Church left open to our interpretation, then I would agree with you!  But that's not the situation when discussing the possibility of mortal sin here.  In this circumstance, we have the Catechism to consider and follow.  Now, Calypso being in the bridal party attending the wedding, etc. - that's all up for discussion, of course.  That's another matter entirely.

    I would be astonished if any priest said to Calypso's BIL, "What does your conscience tell you?"  Rather, I imagine the priest would tell him to weigh the consequences of being married outside the Church and turning away from the Eucharist, and then the decision would be up to the BIL. 

    DH and I had to live through over four months of abstinence following one of my (particularly bad) miscarriages.   A doctor suggested we go on birth control rather than abstain for the duration - we said, "Of course not," because that would have been against our faith.  So we prayed, we waited, and we endured.  I say this not so that anyone can applaud us, but rather so that the point I am stressing is understood.   We knew it would be a sin to say  "We're ignoring the Church teachings, which we profess to live by when we accept the Eucharist.  We're justifying a mortal sin because hey, it would be easier, and our consciences said it is the right thing to do."  So we didn't "go there," because there was nothing for us to interpret or debate.  The teachings were clear, as they are in this case, and the choice was ours. 

    Again, I write this with all warmth and respect possible. 
  • edited December 2011
    Wow.  I'm not sure where you all go to church, but I was raised Catholic and still belong to a Catholic church today and have NEVER met a priest that is so openly conservative to state any of the things that you all are saying.  In fact, most of the priests I have dealt with are extremely liberal, and emphasize a relationship with God.  There is much less focus on "Catholic Law."  In fact, even after 8+ years of catechism as well as a few courses in college, I have never even heard of some of the rules that you all are mentioning.

    To the original question, if your goal is to be a "good Catholic" and you believe that being a good Catholic entails following every single rule to a T, then no, don't stand up in your BIL's wedding.  But as pp mentioned, expect consequences.  Just as you would ostracize your BIL for his decisions, you may be ostracized for yours.  If I was your BIL and his fiance, I would be extremely offended.  I would feel very judged, like you don't think our relationship is valid, and because we don't share your beliefs, as if we are going to hell (and go ahead and tell me that I am going to hell for not believing Catholic scripture to a T, that is fine).

    The priest at my parents church once told a "joke" during the homily:
    a man was standing at the Gates and St. Peter was giving him the tour of heaven.  There were all sorts of different people of all sorts of different faiths interacting and everyone was full of joy.  Then the man noticed a separate "village" of people that had built a very tall thick wall around their village.  The man asked St. Peter (Who are those people and why are they behind that wall?" and St. Peter told the man in a hushed voice, "Those are the Catholics. They believe they are the only ones here."

    Anyways, I agree with all of mbcdefg's points, but apparently compared to you ladies I'm a quite liberal Catholic so take them with a grain of salt.



     
  • Calypso1977Calypso1977 member
    Knottie Warrior 2500 Comments 25 Love Its First Answer
    edited December 2011
    i guess i still dont view it as judgement on the couple.  i view it as somethign that would violate my beliefs.

    for example, if i had a close friend or relative that was facing an unwanted pregnancy, and needed a ride to the abortion clinic, i would not give her a ride.  i dont see that as judging her personally, but i cannot participate in an act that supports something that i am opposed to because of my religious beliefs.

    Have you even been asked "do YOU feel that is wrong?".    I have been asked that by my priest and quite often I am told that I am the one to determine if my decision is right or wrong. 

    as far as this statement goes, i actually agree with it in concept.  but how one determines whether they are right or wrong is based on their beliefs and knowledge, and what guidance they choose to follow in determining what's right or wrong.  one needs a foundation of moral/legal/spiritual guidelines in order to determine what is wrong.  for example, if i murder someone and my priest or the judge aksed me "do i feel that it its wrong" i would say yes, becuase under the laws of our nation, murder is illegal.  to marry in a civil ceremony is legal under the laws of our nation, but as a catholic, for me to marry civilly it would violate the rules of the religion that i have chosen to follow.  so if someone asked me "do i feel its wrong" if i made a decision, as a catholic, to marry someone in a civil ceremony, i would say yes.
  • preciosa4preciosa4 member
    100 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I gotta agree with the more liberal posters here.  Never in all my years of Catholic upbringing or education (and yes, I attend weekly) have I heard anything like the hardline conservative approach.  We tend to be less into legalisms and more into the spirit of the thing...  Just goes to show that Catholicism be be "universal" but we are hardly homogeneous, are we?  Even theologians differ quite a lot in their interpretations, really.  That said, I respect that Calypso's experience of Catholicism is different from mine.  That's ok...  To me, personally, the greater sin would be in damaging the family relationship.  (And trust me, it WILL be viewed as being hurtful, though I trust that is not your intention.)  It sounds like your brother's spirituality is not the same as yours...
     
    That said, if in YOUR faith, you find, when prayerfully examining your conscience that it goes against what you feel is right,then...  well, I guess you have to do what you have to do.  (I'm not a kosher Jew, for example, but I respect that they have their obligations, which are different from mine.)  However you do that, though, I think that any time you frame something in terms of someone else's state of "sin", the result is that it will come across as judgmental. 
  • Theresa626Theresa626 member
    1000 Comments
    edited December 2011
    I agree with larzhope here.  Also, Calypso, you need to do what you feel is most right for you but you also need to seriously consider the consequences of both actions.  If I were the brother in law, I would be very offended and take it personally and I definitely would not see your point of view. I would always feel that you were judging me and it would piss me off and start our relationship on a very bad foot.  I'd be polite to you when I saw you but I don't think I'd have positive feelings towards you at all.  Really make sure you consider both sides of the coin because I'm pretty sure even if you don't mean it to be, you will come off as condescending and judgmental.  
  • Jasmine&RajahJasmine&Rajah member
    Knottie Warrior 100 Comments 5 Love Its
    edited December 2011
    I feel like I'm talking in circles here.  :-)  But this must be said yet again:  It is absolutely not wrong - nor is it legalism - to call a sin, a sin. 

    Of course, only the Lord can judge the individual - but we, as brothers and sisters in Christ, also have a sacred duty toward one another!  (Remember Matthew 5: "You are the light of the world.  A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.  Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in Heaven.")

    As in the example Calypso gave . . . if she told someone (lovingly and humbly) that she could not support the abortion, and the person got angry with her . . . well, what can be done about that, besides offering more love, kindness, and prayers?  Whose opinion do we regard more highly - Divine God's, or that of a fellow sinful human being?

    From the Catechism:

    1861 . . . If it (mortal sin) is not redeemed by repentance and God's forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ's kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgment of persons to the justice and mercy of God.

    1868 Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

    - by participating directly and voluntarily in them;

    - by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;

    - by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;

    - by protecting evil-doers.


    Lastly . . . I'm sure Calypso has weighed all the possible consequences of each scenario.  And as another poster pointed out, her BIL might not even be aware of the gravity of the situation.  She might be the only one with enough love and respect to share Truth with him and then - of course - leave his decision to him.

    Over and out, and God bless you all with a beautiful day.  :-)
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