NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council

lisa89760 · June 2011

http://www.detnews.com/article/20110609/LIFESTYLE04/106090399/Archdiocese--group-square-off

I don't know much about the American Catholic Council or what exactly is going on, but it's an interesting article. I actually sent to my uncle that is a priest to get his take on it.

Riss91 · June 2011

It appears that the problem isn't that they are meeting to discuss the Church issues, but that they are attempting to hold a mass that is not sanctioned. If they forego the mass, then I don't see why the group wouldn't be allowed to meet...

caitriona87 · June 2011

I had never heard of this group before but a quick tour of their website reveals that they are a dissenting group, not faithful to the Church (if their disobedience of their ordinary were not sufficient evidence of that....)

Unfortunately viewing Vatican II through a lens of rupture/discontinuity/break with tradition/"it's a whole new church now!!" is common and leads to this sort of thing. We have to remember that Tradition/the Magisterium is the unity of bishops not just currently but throughout the history of the Church.

Things like "the Church has to conform to our experience"--nonononononono. We have to conform our lives to Christ and the teachings of His Church, not the other way around.

bibliophile2010 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:678eb1da-5ee5-4e98-b2fb-ce89225e3859">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]Things like "the Church has to conform to our experience"--nonononononono. We have to conform our lives to Christ and the teachings of His Church, not the other way around.
Posted by caitriona87[/QUOTE]

This. I get that the Church's teachings are counter-cultural on many levels. I get that they are hard. I also believe that there is a single universal truth, and that Truth is God. It is our responsibility as christians to form our conscience around that Truth. As sinful humans, we must rely on the teachings of the Church -- both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition -- to help us learn what that Truth is.

The Church is not a democracy, and thank God for that!

Riss91 · June 2011

While I completely agree that the Church shouldn't altar its basic beliefs and teachings to coordinate with cultural and social changes, I do think that it's a good thing to have groups that push our Church leaders to fix problems instead of hiding or denying them. So, in that sense, I would support a dissenting group that is trying to encourage our leaders to attend to problems like sex abuse, etc.

There are devils inside the walls of the Church, so it is good to challenge them and those around them who are allowing the evil to fester.

caitriona87 · June 2011

I don't know, Riss--I know the Church has problems that need to be dealt with, and those sins are definitely undermining the Church's moral authority in the eyes of the world (not that it was terribly strong to begin with.)

I am all for the sex abuse being dealt with swiftly and justly, but when groups who push for that are also in bed with groups like Call to Action and their ilk, who hate the Church and Her teachings, it really makes me question their motives. If you look at this group's "Links" page, one of them is for something like "WomenChurch Conference" among whose stated goals are "overthrowing patriarchy" (um, hello....God is Father) and "advancing reproductive justice."

At the same time God can and does bring good out of evil, so I'm not discounting the fact that He could use groups like this to advance legitimate issues but I can't say I could get behind them because of their doctrinal & moral unfaithfulness.

doctabroccoli · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:c42ab368-ae14-41a2-bafb-91d2b44cc001">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]I do think that it's a good thing to have groups that push our Church leaders to fix problems instead of hiding or denying them. So, in that sense, I would support a dissenting group that is trying to encourage our leaders to attend to problems like sex abuse, etc. There are devils inside the walls of the Church, so it is good to challenge them and those around them who are allowing the evil to fester.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

I could not have said it better.

I do, however, think that groups like this are sometimes misunderstood. There are plenty of ways to relate the central beliefs of the Church to modern society within the construct of the Church. A lot of times people who feel the need to rebel are doing it because they cannot find a priest who speaks to them spiritually. I personally was away from the Church for a few years because of this, as I've said before. Every one of us interprets and lives our faith differently, and I feel it is once of our duties as religious people to understand and respect our differences, even though they are slight in the grand scheme of things. We all believe the same thing. How we act on that is what differs.

lisa89760 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:d5170ea9-0273-44b0-8077-df75beaa4f94">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]It appears that the problem isn't that they are meeting to discuss the Church issues, but that they are attempting to hold a mass that is not sanctioned. If they forego the mass, then I don't see why the group wouldn't be allowed to meet...
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

That's what I got out of it. I think it's always good for people to discuss teachings of the church in different ways.

I've never heard about this group either before this article...I sent it to my mom and she said oh I'm gonna ask my brother (the priest) if he is going haha.

Riss91 · June 2011

I should have noted that I don't know much about the specific group mentioned in the article, so my point was that I support the idea of groups that encourage our leaders to address problems. I certainly would not support a group that degrades our Church's teachings directly or indirectly through support of other groups.

bibliophile2010 · June 2011

I agree that the Church needs to fix what needs to be fixed. Sex abuse scandal being an example.

I don't agree, however, that these dissenting groups are the way to get the job done. They promote issues that are theologically so far off the map that they do not lend credibility among the mainstream to real issues.

I think so many issues come down to what is being discussed in the baptism thread: the lack of catehesis. People don't know their faith. It is too easy for someone who doesn't know it to walk away to find something easier or more fun or more emotionally passionate (rock star worship services some to mind). I truly believe at some point we must all make an adult decision to choose to follow God.

I have many friends who are active in super-"liberal" parishes and organizations, including Call to Action. It doesn't make me love them less, nor do I love anyone less to disagrees with me here, but I do think that reshaping the Catholic Church into a faith of feel-good, easy-peasy, follow your own conscience (without forming it properly) way of thinking is damaging and dangerous.

Riss91 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:b5d2e1c7-7f46-4ee7-9517-5048b2769cc2">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]I do think that reshaping the Catholic Church into a faith of feel-good, easy-peasy, follow your own conscience (without forming it properly) way of thinking is damaging and dangerous.
Posted by bibliophile2010[/QUOTE]

Absolutely!

doctabroccoli · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:b5d2e1c7-7f46-4ee7-9517-5048b2769cc2">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE] I have many friends who are active in super-"liberal" parishes and organizations, including Call to Action. It doesn't make me love them less, nor do I love anyone less to disagrees with me here, but I do think that reshaping the Catholic Church into a faith of feel-good, easy-peasy, follow your own conscience (without forming it properly) way of thinking is damaging and dangerous.
Posted by bibliophile2010[/QUOTE]

Just to clarify -
You aren't equating "liberal" parishes and "feel-good, easy-peasy, follow your own conscience (without forming it properly) way of thinking", are you? Because I respectfully disagree if that is the case.

caitriona87 · June 2011

The problem with "liberal" and "conservative" is that they are political designations...I try hard to train myself not to use these words when it comes to the Church (at least insofar as faith and morals....they may be appropriate for describing liturgical differences, I don't know, I'm not a liturgist...even there "modern" and "traditional" seem better.) The Church is the Church and Her teachings are Her teachings.

Often it seems that people who adhere to the Church's teachings on faith and morals are labeled "conservative" while those who dissent are labeled "liberal."

If people use "liberal" and "conservative" with regard to Catholicism to mean something other than the above, I have not heard it and I'd be curious to know what is meant by those terms if not the above...if anyone means them elsewise I'd love to hear an explanation of it. (I'm being sincere, but it seemed like saying "I'd sincerely love" would make me sound LESS sincere....*sigh* to the inadequacies of text.)

doctabroccoli · June 2011

Caitriona -
This is my personal view as I'd have to label myself more "liberal" if we want to use that term.

In my experience, more "liberal" Catholics seem to be less concerned with reciting prayers and bible verses and more concerned with living their faith (for example, helping the needy, treating everyone and everything with equal respect regardless of their beliefs and lifestyle, etc.). If we're talking about what goes on during Mass, I would describe a more "liberal" homily as one that helps you draw more abstract conclusions on the readings rather than "this is exactly what the readings say word for word". There is more room to come to your own conclusion about what the readings mean. Along those lines, more "liberal" Catholics tend to question Church teaching every once in a while, not as a matter of disrespect, but as a matter of trying to get a better understanding of why things are the way they are.

Intellectual inquiry and purposeful dissent are two completely different things.

That's my view

.

bibliophile2010 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:c515d1f3-64b0-4573-aa42-d2b9feeed290">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council : Just to clarify - You aren't equating "liberal" parishes and "feel-good, easy-peasy, follow your own conscience (without forming it properly) way of thinking", are you? Because I respectfully disagree if that is the case.
Posted by doctabroccoli[/QUOTE]

Darn actual things to do.

No, I don't think that "feel-good easy-peasy follow your own conscience way of thinking" is a "liberal" thing. I even used the quotes because I agree that labeling things as liberal or conservative is not productive, especially given the current political climate (even though, techincally the words liberal and conservative have been applied to politics, rather than being exclusive to politics) is not particularly productive. I know plenty of "conservative" Catholics who are as feel-good as some "liberal" Catholics I know.

I agree that it is of the utmost importance to actively question faith, learn faith, and live faith.

When you (uesed generically throughout this part) question your faith, and then do your homework (not decide what society tells you is right, but actually do your homework) and learn WHY the church teaches what she does and how it should apply in your own life, you grow in your faith. At that point, you can actually live the faith -- which means a whole lot more than just reciting prayers (and I think "conservatives" are unfairly labeled as being rote lemmings as much as I think "liberals" are unfairly labeled as being easy-peasy).

Living your faith means having an active prayer life. Questioning and learning your faith (you know, forming your conscience around the Truth, not around what society tells you is true, but the real Truth). It means being committed to Catholic Social Teaching. It means being pro-life. It means being committed to the sacramental life. It means doing what is right, not what is easy.

I think it means following liturgical norms, even though they are rigid -- they are rigid for a reason (but I don't think that excludes any style of music or instrumentation or the like; it is more about actually following the rubrics). I think there is room for Life Teen masses and Extraordinary form masses -- if you are being fed by the true church and her teachings, I'm not going to get worked up about the style of mass you attend.

The Truth is neither liberal nor conservative. It is simply the Truth. To me, living the faith means following the Truth, its liberal elements and its conservative elements.

Are there issues/teachings that I struggle to understand and embrace? Absolutely. But many of these have already been settled for me because I put them on my heart, prayed about it, and let the Spirit work on me. I trust that, in time, I will understand those things that I still can't fully embrace, if not in this life, then the next. I have to, because if I reject of the authority of Church teaching, all the rest falls apart as well, and my deeply-rooted faith in God is too solid to reject all teachings.

ootmother2 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:c42ab368-ae14-41a2-bafb-91d2b44cc001">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]While I completely agree that the Church shouldn't altar its basic beliefs and teachings to coordinate with cultural and social changes, I do think that it's a good thing to have groups that push our Church leaders to fix problems instead of hiding or denying them. So, in that sense, I would support a dissenting group that is trying to encourage our leaders to attend to problems like sex abuse, etc. There are devils inside the walls of the Church, so it is good to challenge them and those around them who are allowing the evil to fester.
Posted by Riss91[/QUOTE]

and I happen to think that you're brilliant.

There are so many problems in the Church that are driving people out of the Church and diminishing the priesthood to barely viable. And it's getting worse.

Yes, there must be change but it must be an orderly change, not an overthrow of the Church's basics

agapecarrie · June 2011

The priesthood is growing in many areas....our seminary is packed...and is going through expansion right now. We ordained 4 guys this year, last year we ordained 8.

In Nigeria, there is a seminary that has about 1000 men, with a waiting list of about 4000 to get in.

ootmother2 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:f0e19d06-ce11-4ae1-ac50-6d4d0d79c372">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]The priesthood is growing in many areas....our seminary is packed...and is going through expansion right now. We ordained 4 guys this year, last year we ordained 8. In Nigeria, there is a seminary that has about 1000 men, with a waiting list of about 4000 to get in.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

That's the problem. The average age of a priest in the US is 63. The seminaries are putting out about 3 a year in NYS. My pastor has discussed this problem often.

Nigeria, India and other third world countries are attracting priests but the majority of them have barely understandable English. Yes, they can keep saying mass here but how many people are going to keep attending mass when they can't understand what the priest is saying? Not many and that's a huge problem.

lisa89760 · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:7b765f4a-424f-4624-991a-beef033a05b6">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council : That's the problem. The average age of a priest in the US is 63. The seminaries are putting out about 3 a year in NYS. My pastor has discussed this problem often. Nigeria, India and other third world countries are attracting priests but the majority of them have barely understandable English. Yes, they can keep saying mass here but how many people are going to keep attending mass when they can't understand what the priest is saying? Not many and that's a huge problem.
Posted by ootmother2[/QUOTE]

I would say we have the same issue here in Metro Detroit. There are struggles to find priests and it's very rare that you find a younger priest (like below the age of 50) My FI used to teach at a Catholic HS and there was a seminary attached and it was small and most of the people attending were from poland (to be fair, the church and school has polish roots and caters to that) It was very interesting to go to mass there and see the younger priests "in training".

agapecarrie · June 2011

My point is that if it were simply a "church" problem, then it would be consistent. It's not. The orthodox diocese/seminaries are busting at the seams. It's a societal problem of relativisim, loss of respsect for human dignity, and the lack of undertsanding of one's need for God. I'm not saying the people in the church are perfect, but changing truth is not the answer.

doctabroccoli · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:a26bfcbc-98ff-4d54-899d-69cd32e8db7a">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]It's a societal problem of relativisim, loss of respsect for human dignity, and the lack of undertsanding of one's need for God.
Posted by agapecarrie[/QUOTE]

Be very careful Agape. I don't think you meant to imply what you just implied. Watch what you say please.

agapecarrie · June 2011

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_catholic-weddings_nwr-archdiocese-of-detroit-american-catholic-council?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:615Discussion:68928cd2-67b0-4d8b-8bfe-5bb16bc9c7c3Post:2e8ea525-c347-4f80-a3c0-8ac18f7ea5e6">Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: NWR: Archdiocese of Detroit & American Catholic Council : Be very careful Agape. I don't think you meant to imply what you just implied. Watch what you say please.
Posted by doctabroccoli[/QUOTE]
What in the world are you talking about? Everything I said is true...there was nothing "implied" in what I said...this is the very basic problem with why people don't go to church anymore.

relativism: if whats good for you is good for you and whats good for me is good for me, and there's no objective truth, it doesnt' mattef if I go to church.

2nd: All of my temporal needs are provided, so I don't see a need for God in my life

3rd: loss of respect for human dignity with abortion, pornography, and using people as commodities...

Calypso1977 · June 2011

i dont see that agape said anything bad either?

the US overall is not as religious a country as other parts of the world. that is why we have a shortage of priests here in the US, but not in other parts of the world. that's how i read what she wrote. we are a secular society in general.

bibliophile2010 · June 2011

I don't understand what's wrong with that particular statement. I would agree that those are societal problems that are affecting the church (among many, many others). Even if one disagrees, she did not call particular people out, point fingers or call names. Maybe I just don't understand what she implied either; I would genuinely appreciate clarification.

doctabroccoli · June 2011

We were talking about a shortage of CATHOLIC priests in this country.

Her statement could be read as non-catholics posessing relativism, lost of respect for human dignity, and the lack of understanding of one's need for God.

It's my job to overanalyze things here to make sure that no one gets offended. What she said could be taken the wrong way.

caitriona87 · June 2011

I'm confused about whatever agape is supposedly implying there....the numbers just bear it out--the dearth of vocations is only in the US, Europe, Australia, etc. (where there has been a rise in secularism/relativism.) In Africa & South America they are up three- and four-fold in the past 20 or so years. Also, I can think of a quick fix for the language barrier. *cough*Latin*cough*

As far as our exchange above--I am definitely not against inquiry. That's how we learn, as has been discussed re: the lack of catechesis--if people WANT to know the Faith, that's more than half the battle right there because they will do what it takes to learn it. In fact the more I learn why the Church teaches what She does, the more beautiful/logical/compelling those teachings become. So I'm all for study, provided that the Church's Christ-given authority is kept in mind.

What gets me though is the line of thinking that "living one's faith" is somehow possible apart from an active prayer life. Praying IS living one's faith. The first commandment is to love God. Loving our neighbor comes after that, and rightly so, as a genuine love of neighbor can only be rooted in their dignity as a person made in God's image. The greater our love for God, the greater the love of neighbor will be. Also, God knows what other people need much better than we do and is better (perfectly, in fact) equipped to give it. That's not to say we should do nothing--Mt 25 is clear on what we are to do, and God calls us to be co-workers with Him, but prayer is the primary way that we do that, not least of all to strengthen ourselves for whatever physical sacrifices we take on for others.

ootmother2 · June 2011

agape,

You're missing the point..

70% of the Catholics leaving the church do so because their spiritual needs are not being met. With one priest per 5,000 Catholics, I can see the problem here.
Every seminary in the US, save one in New Jersey has decreased enrollment from 2000 - 2007. These national shortages forces current priests to work well past retirement age. Most of them, well into their 70s, sometimes beyond.

The Nigerian are filling the seminaries? Please tell me how well they can minister to the Church with a significant language problem. If I attend mass on Sunday but cannot understand what the priest is saying, what good is that? I'm in no way diminishing these men, but let's be real about this.

bibliophile2010 · June 2011

I think what Agape is saying that the priest shortage is not a general Church problem; it is an American (or European or Australian or whatever) Church problem. That means theologically incorrect "solutions" like female priests or possible-but-not-practiced "solutions" like a married priesthood are not going to fix the problem.

caitriona87 · June 2011

I would say all three of those issues are present in spades in the Western world, among plenty of Catholics as well as non-Catholics. Likewise there are some people, both Catholic and not, who do value God/Truth/human dignity. I am having a really hard time grasping how that could be construed as offensive....as biblio said, she didn't single anyone out but spoke in generalities....

agapecarrie · June 2011

No, the seminary in St. Louis has increased enrollment, as well as other diocese.

My point is that when there is authentic sound teaching, vocations follow. Nigeria is an example to that. The problem isn't with "priest shortage"..The problem is as I stated above.

doctabroccoli · June 2011

You guys are missing my point. I understand what Agape meant, as do a lot of you. But there are A LOT of lurkers on TK who don't post. Do you want the notion that Catholics think badly of non-Catholics spread around? I wouldn't assume so, since it's not true.

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