Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides

VegasCalling · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:3f418f6b-b8d4-4fcd-8632-d80b8a281f86">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]The topic isn't offensive. We have these discussions all the time. LURK! Again Vegas it is your tone. I agree with your points but HOW you word things is offensive. I hope to gosh you don't act like this in real life. I agree with you but I really want to type something really bitchy just to piss you off because you are rude.
Posted by redheadfsu[/QUOTE]

<div>I haven't been rude at all. If you want to type something bitchy then there's something wrong with your interpretation of my behavior, not my behavior. I don't try to write in a kissy-face, flourishy tone that women are expected to write in, but I don't write rude things. In fact, my OP was rather diplomatic, and I assumed the board members' <em>intelligence</em> rather than their stupidity. I've even been pretty diplomatic to the people who have been childish and insulting, even when I wanted to stoop to their level. There's nothing wrong with my tone, you just expect me to be a lot more flowery in my approach. </div>

VegasCalling · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:ca800aeb-287c-4fff-9b95-3d74763300dd">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE] Also, you said that you haven't posted anything trollish or extreme, but you were on the E board the other day talking about how you were inviting the majority of your friends using Facebook and how you had been posting all of your wedding stuff on there. And not even using a FB group for the purpose, but pretty much saying "the more the merrier." You knew, when you posted it, what kind of response you would get because you posted a poll pretty much saying you knew it was tacky. That was more than a little flame-bait-y/trollish. You knew that the E board would say it was tacky and that you were setting yourself up for a world of chaos, but you didn't care. It definitely seemed like you posted that just to justify yourself and get attention, knowing that it was a bad idea. Trollish behavior.
Posted by divinemsbee[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div>Actually, I didn't think what I did (posting an open invite on Facebook) was wrong at all. So your asssumption about why I posted is wrong. I included the "tacky" poll choice because I figured the more anal ppl would vote that way. I was shocked with not only the number of people who voted it as tacky, but also by the harsh criticism I got. I later followed up with some RL friends, and they thought there was nothing wrong with it. So now I'm starting to think the ppl on here are simply anal retentive, rather than correct on their interpretation of etiquette.

</div>

ShadowCutter · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:0b519336-d344-4763-a685-c21cd60ff647">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]I can see where you're coming from, and I am usually a feminist through and through. However, before my FI asked me to marry him, he asked my father for permission, and when I get married my dad is going to give me away. My reasoning is that while those traditions began in a sexist way, now, they are just ceremonial gestures of approval and familial inclusion. As I said, FI asked my dads permission before asking me, but if my dad had said no, he still would have done it. It just made my father feel good to be asked. We no longer have bridesmaids to trick evil spirits, now it's just a way to honor friends and loved ones. In the same way "giving the bride away" isn't really a father giving his child away like property, it's just a way to honor his role in your life. Edit: Also, I find it kind of offensive that you seem to be implying that women who hold with these 'sexist' traditions are not intelligent, or not empowered.
Posted by Gabrielle76[/QUOTE]

Except for my not actually being a feminist, I agree with this 100%, especially the edit. My fiancé was raised around a lot of women without his father around, and as a result he's really aware and allowing of feminism, but he asked my dad for "permission" (which is really more of a blessing than permission) because he knew that *I like that tradition*. He still would've proposed if my dad had said no (although he wouldn't and obviously didn't say no so that's irrelevant). Of course if you've lived away from your parents for a long time and/or don't have a close relationship with them then it makes sense for you not to include those details just for the sake of tradition. But choosing to follow tradition has NOTHING to do with a lack of self-respect or intelligence and frankly to say that is more disrespectful of women than any tradition is. Especially considering it's the bride's choice and not her parents' choice if she wants to follow it or not. I mean if they're paying for the wedding then it's bad etiquette to completely ignore them but that's another topic I think. I mean if I want the blessing from the parents and such, then what's feminist about saying I can't have it? I can't have MY wedding the way I want, that's how feminism works? No thank you very much. I respect myself *too much* to let someone in a forum tell me what traditions I *shouldn't* follow. All the "this isn't cool" stuff like this OP is exactly what I actively ignore or do the opposite of *because* I am my own person. *If* I had no self-respect or couldn't think for myself *then* I would be afraid to do anything that someone said wasn't "intelligent". No worries there.

But I don't follow traditions I'm not interested in either, for instance I decided today that I probably don't want to wear a veil. That's just personal preference as I don't like wearing things on my head in general and I suspect I'd be annoyed at the thing floating around in front of my face. I also won't wear high heels because they're uncomfortable and unstable, and I already have shaky balance and ankle problems. But that's all just me, I wouldn't ever be arrogant enough to say that all self-respecting brides had to be exactly like me, even if I was a feminist.

ShadowCutter · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:cb9306df-e2b4-41d2-8074-6d6979beb817">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]So then you shouldn't want a great big expensive ring which grew from the days when a man would kidnap his bride and shackle her around the waist inside his home so she wouldn't escape. Look, many of these things came from ancient traditions and some of it is even from myth. As time passes new meaning is given to many traditions. The white dress was a sign of purity, now it's just the traditional color (blue used to be the traditional color, to be more like the Blessed Mother). The honeymoon used to last a whole month (from new moon to new moon) and you were supposed to stay holed up in your husband's home and make a baby. The traditional wedding march comes from an opera where the "bride" is kinapped and raped by the "groom" during the song. I think it's ridiculous that women get upset over stuff like this. If you don't like the traditions, don't do them but don't judge others who want to do these things that have lost the negative connotation generations, even centuries ago.
Posted by Squishy'sGal[/QUOTE]

Exactly.

VegasCalling · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:d822f7f2-2157-4dc3-8250-508187ce5844">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides : Except for <strong>my not actually being a feminist</strong>, I agree with this 100%, especially the edit. .... <strong>I respect myself *too much</strong>* to let someone in a forum tell me what traditions I *shouldn't* follow. All the "this isn't cool" stuff like this OP is exactly what I actively ignore or do the opposite of *because* I am my own person. <strong>*If* I had no self-respec</strong>t or couldn't think for myself *then* I would be afraid to do anything that someone said wasn't "intelligent". No worries there. <div>Posted by ShadowCutter[/QUOTE]

</div><div>If you don't consider yourself as a feminist, which is simply the belief that women should have equal rights, then you <em><strong>don't respect yourself.</strong> </em></div><div><em>
</em></div><div>A woman who says she "isn't a feminist" and then makes an inane assertion that she nonetheless has self-respect is like a black man saying he has self-respect while putting on a Klan robe. Jesus. </div>

monkeysip · February 2012

I didn't read all the posts, so I'm sorry if anyone already said this.

I just wanted to add that it's not (and never has been) part of Catholic tradition to have the Father walk the bride down the aisle and have him "give her away". The idea has always been that the bride and groom give each other freely (in fact, it'sa requirement for the marriage to be valid) to marriage, so the Catholic tradition was actually always for the bride and groom to walk down together.

HOWEVER, Its completely acceptable in Catholic weddings for the father to walk the bride down. It's not viewed as "wrong", just not tradition. I will probably have my father walk me down because I think he wouldn't understand it if I didn't. But the priest does not ask "who gives this woman away" or anything like that. The father just walks with her, then sits down. There's no "giving away" type of action or words.

I know that the conversation has drifted far away from the original post about the giving away of the bride, but I just thought I'd add that.

melb2013 · February 2012

I also find a lot of wedding traditions to be sexist.

1. I am having my father walk me down the isle, but he will, in no way, give verbal permission to "give me away".

2. I don't like blushers- it seems too old fashioned and riduculous considering that a lot of woman who do this have already been living with their spouses.

3. I am not changing my name. My name is who I am. Some people don't feel this way, and that's fine.

4. I think the idea of someone asking permission to marry me is horrific. Again, so many couples who like this have already been living each other. It seems absurd and while I respect my parents, they are not in charge of who I marry. I wouldn't marry someone who didn't fit into my family, but that decision is mine alone.

ShadowCutter · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:99faa854-4b8c-4a7b-a48f-dd156057aa30">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides : If you don't consider yourself as a feminist, which is simply the belief that women should have equal rights, then you don't respect yourself. A woman who says she "isn't a feminist" and then makes an inane assertion that she nonetheless has self-respect is like a black man saying he has self-respect while putting on a Klan robe. Jesus.
Posted by VegasCalling[/QUOTE]

Wrong. I do think women should have equal rights. I do not think that women have to agree with your anti-everything views in order to respect themselves. Agreeing with you is not respecting me, it's agreeing with you. You're saying that feminists can't follow traditions, if that's true then I'm not a feminist. I will do what I want to do and what I believe in because I respect myself enough to make my own decisions. That is my choice. If I can't make that choice, where did my "equal rights" go? If feminism is nothing but "women have equal rights" then sure I'm a feminist. Tradition-hating and men-hating, um no. Doing whatever you say? Heck no. I am a woman, therefore bowing to your wishes is not feminist, it would be the same as obeying a man, because the point is I'm not my own. You apparently missed the part where I said I do what I want instead of what random people say is cool. You seriously think that's not self-respectful? Or you're hung up on the word "feminist" and anyone who doesn't put themselves in your club on your terms is so wrong that you have to add more wrongness that isn't even there. Feminist is just a word, and using it doesn't magically make you respect yourself. I don't call myself a feminist because like other PP I don't want to be associated with people like you. But you can't tell me or anyone else how much self-respect we have simply based on the differences between our personal lives and yours.

ShadowCutter · February 2012

It's interesting how you put that actually. If you really believe in feminism and believe that feminists respect themselves, why did you argue the point about my respecting myself instead of the point about whether I'm a feminist? If respecting myself makes me a feminist, then you should've said "if you respect yourself then you can consider yourself a feminist". You could've said "feminists believe in self-respect, therefore if you have that then you're allowed to call yourself a feminist". Instead you go all hateful and completely ignore the examples of self-respect that I gave. Not very intelligent of you. Like I said you're hung up on the word and ignoring the meaning. If someone says "I own a car but I'm not a car-owner" do you say "owning a car makes you a car-owner", or do you say "you don't own a car"?

VegasCalling · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:8ff437eb-f707-4b10-bad4-820714fc68f4">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides : Wrong. I do think women should have equal rights. I do not think that women have to agree with your anti-everything views in order to respect themselves. Agreeing with you is not respecting me, it's agreeing with you. You're saying that feminists can't follow traditions, if that's true then I'm not a feminist. I will do what I want to do and what I believe in because I respect myself enough to make my own decisions. That is my choice. If I can't make that choice, where did my "equal rights" go? <strong>If feminism is nothing but "women have equal rights"</strong> then sure I'm a feminist. Tradition-hating and men-hating, um no. Doing whatever you say? Heck no. I am a woman, therefore bowing to your wishes is not feminist, it would be the same as obeying a man, because the point is I'm not my own. You apparently missed the part where I said I do what I want instead of what random people say is cool. You seriously think that's not self-respectful? Or you're hung up on the word "feminist" and anyone who doesn't put themselves in your club on your terms is so wrong that you have to add more wrongness that isn't even there. <strong>Feminist is just a word, and using it doesn't magically make you respect yourself. </strong>I don't call myself a feminist because like other PP I don't want to be associated with people like you. But you can't tell me or anyone else how much self-respect we have simply based on the differences between our personal lives and yours.
Posted by ShadowCutter[/QUOTE]

<div>
</div><div>Well, when you put it like that, I realize I probably should have stated that "feminism" is about equal rights, based in <em>a <strong>belief that women are inherently equal to others in their worth.</strong> </em>Therefore, you cannot call yourself a feminist or claim to have self-respect and be taken seriously if you behave in non-feminist ways or allow yourself to be treated as a non-equal, such as agreeing to say "I will obey you" in your wedding ceremony, or live a marriage built on the premise that the husband is the head of the household, etc. If you live a lifestyle or behave in any of those ways, you aren't a feminist, and personally, I OBJECT vehemently against women who behave in these ways yet claim to be feminist. I also object to women who behave in these ways and claim to have self-respect. It's simply not possible to behave in ways that devalues your worth because you are a woman, and to concurrently claim you have self-respect. You're not fooling anyone except other delusional people. </div>

ShadowCutter · February 2012

I won't have the "obey" part in my vows, we will be equal partners. He doesn't like the "obey" vow either. I definitely agree in equal inherent worth. I will take his last name because I feel it signifies our new relationship and life together and it's easier to pronounce than my name, and what I do with my life has nothing to do with my name. I agree about first names though, I won't be "Mrs John".

VegasCalling · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:0ca5107d-f25b-4814-bec1-e44b7a9b4e05">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE] It's interesting how you put that actually. If you really believe in feminism and believe that feminists respect themselves, why did you argue the point about my respecting myself instead of the point about whether I'm a feminist?<strong> If respecting myself makes me a feminist,</strong> [/QUOTE]<div>
<div>COMPREHENSION FAIL. I never said that. How unintelligent of <em>you.</em></div><div><em>
</em></div><div>[QUOTE] then you should've said "if you respect yourself then you can consider yourself a feminist". You could've said <strong>"feminists believe in self-respect, therefore if you have that then you're allowed to call yourself a feminist".</strong> [/QUOTE]

</div><div>
</div><div>LOGIC FAIL. My God, you're like talking to a tree stump. </div></div>

ShadowCutter · February 2012

Also, traditional symbols and actual behavior are two different things. As far as vows go I believe in taking them seriously and therefore not saying anything that you don't mean (such as the "obey" line) but things like the father walking the bride down the aisle are simply symbols and don't control our behavior towards each other. If you wear the symbol or go through the motions but have a positive self-respecting attitude about it then you're still respecting yourself. If you have in your mind "my father wants this and I want this and there's nothing wrong with it, we're just walking together and then we're done" then it's a nice happy tradition and nothing else. If you have "ew, ownership transfer" in your mind then don't do it.

monkeysip · February 2012

Oy vey!

Feminists lose their credibility when they start dictating to others what they should and shouldn't do, and what they must do to have self-respect.

As others have said, a lot of these traditions that seem sexist don't have to have sexist meanings. You can put your own meaning in what seems like a sexist tradition.

Either way, I think women should be able to choose what is right for them and for their fiance with these types of choices. Veil or no veil... walking with Dad or walking alone... taking the husband's name or not.... none of these automatically mean that you DO or DON'T have self-respect.

I am taking my FI's name because I want us to have one name. And my name doesn't particularly have any special meaning to me, so I'm taking his. That doesn't mean I don't respect myself or think that I'm somehow his property because I have his name. And I don't think that women who choose not to take their FI's last name are any less committed. It's a personal choice, and there are valid reasons for either choice.

I believe that women and men have equal value and worth, but I also believe that a husband and wife give themselves to each other. So, I will be my husband's, and he will be mine. It doesn't mean we're each other's "property," to be treated like a slave or object, but it means that we are to live selflessly for each other and put each other's needs over our own.

ShadowCutter · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:f779813d-1e8e-4dc0-a9e5-d0fd9e0e093a">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]Oy vey! Feminists lose their credibility when they start dictating to others what they should and shouldn't do, and what they must do to have self-respect. As others have said, a lot of these traditions that seem sexist don't have to have sexist meanings. You can put your own meaning in what seems like a sexist tradition. Either way, I think women should be able to choose what is right for them and for their fiance with these types of choices. Veil or no veil... walking with Dad or walking alone... taking the husband's name or not.... none of these automatically mean that you DO or DON'T have self-respect. I am taking my FI's name because I want us to have one name. And my name doesn't particularly have any special meaning to me, so I'm taking his. That doesn't mean I don't respect myself or think that I'm somehow his property because I have his name. And I don't think that women who choose not to take their FI's last name are any less committed. It's a personal choice, and there are valid reasons for either choice. I believe that women and men have equal value and worth, but I also believe that a husband and wife give themselves to each other. So, I will be my husband's, and he will be mine. It doesn't mean we're each other's "property," to be treated like a slave or object, but it means that we are to live selflessly for each other and put each other's needs over our own.
Posted by monkeysip[/QUOTE]

Indeed. Agreement here.

saacjw · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:0625c920-9449-41d6-ae3f-991b28462844">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]The traditional wedding march comes from an opera where the "bride" is kinapped and raped by the "groom" during the song. I studied opera back in my day. This is absolutely not true! What version of Lohengrin did you see? Sheesh! Here are the words, translated from the original German. Faithfully guided, draw near to where the blessing of love shall preserve you! Triumphant courage, the reward of love, joins you in faith as the happiest of couples! Champion of virtue, proceed! Jewel of youth, proceed! Flee now the splendour of the wedding feast, may the delights of the heart be yours! This sweet-smelling room, decked for love, now takes you in, away from the splendour. Faithfully guided, draw now near to where the blessing of love shall preserve you! Triumphant courage, love so pure, joins you in faith as the happiest of couples!
Posted by CMGr[/QUOTE]<div>
</div><div style="text-align:-webkit-auto;">True about the actual march, but the marriage that it goes with in the opera doesn't exactly end well either... </div><div>
</div>

redheadfsu · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:4b78771a-6f29-48eb-8e9d-3322388e6a21">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides : I haven't been rude at all. If you want to type something bitchy then there's something wrong with your interpretation of my behavior, not my behavior. I don't try to write in a kissy-face, flourishy tone that women are expected to write in, but I don't write rude things. In fact, my OP was rather diplomatic, and I assumed the board members' intelligence rather than their stupidity. I've even been pretty diplomatic to the people who have been childish and insulting, even when I wanted to stoop to their level. There's nothing wrong with my tone, you just expect me to be a lot more flowery in my approach.
Posted by VegasCalling[/QUOTE]

Are you still in academia? You sound like a grad student that takes themselves way too seriously.

Because if you are out of academia and you think this is how you discuss controversial subjects with people who might disagree with you, I do not know how you function.

redheadfsu · February 2012

And Vegas the whole reason people say they are not a feminist is because they don't what to be associated with people who talk in your type of tone. Thanks for making feminists look like crazy bra-burning radicals (again I agree with your points, however, HOW you said it is offensive).

I'm a proud feminist, however, I realize that flame worthy statements actually hurt the cause. This thread is a perfect example of why some woman who have a feminist mentality(equal rights) refuse to be called a feminist because they don't want to be associated with crazy bra-burning radicals.

eandngalloway · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:0b519336-d344-4763-a685-c21cd60ff647">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]I can see where you're coming from, and I am usually a feminist through and through. However, before my FI asked me to marry him, he asked my father for permission, and when I get married my dad is going to give me away. My reasoning is that while those traditions began in a sexist way, now, they are just ceremonial gestures of approval and familial inclusion. As I said, FI asked my dads permission before asking me, but if my dad had said no, he still would have done it. It just made my father feel good to be asked. We no longer have bridesmaids to trick evil spirits, now it's just a way to honor friends and loved ones. In the same way "giving the bride away" isn't really a father giving his child away like property, it's just a way to honor his role in your life. Edit: Also, I find it kind of offensive that you seem to be implying that women who hold with these 'sexist' traditions are not intelligent, or not empowered.
Posted by Gabrielle76[/QUOTE]

Yea, pretty much this.
It STARTED sexist. It really isn't anymore.

Gabrielle76 · February 2012

OP, I know you think that you aren't being rude, and we're reading it wrong. Don't you think that's a little funny? You think that you are 100% right, and aren't sounding rude at all, and the vast majority of us are just idiots who are taking your meaning wrong? Even if you didn't mean to, I think maybe you should realize that you're getting people upset because you are sounding rude, weather you mean to or not. I know the internet is not a democracy, but have a little faith in numbers. Also, you told another poster that talking to her was like talking to a tree stump. I really don't know how you could read that and not have it sound very rude.

rlavach · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:b99f441f-1e61-499f-97d1-789dded15fd2">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]And Vegas the whole reason people say they are not a feminist is because they don't what to be associated with people who talk in your type of tone. Thanks for making feminists look like crazy bra-burning radicals (again I agree with your points, however, HOW you said it is offensive). I'm a proud feminist, however, I realize that flame worthy statements actually hurt the cause. This thread is a perfect example of why some woman who have a feminist mentality(equal rights) refuse to be called a feminist because they don't want to be associated with crazy bra-burning radicals.
Posted by redheadfsu[/QUOTE]
This is the root of the issue here.<div>
</div><div>For example, I'm vegan. There are a lot of misconceptions and preconceived notions about vegans that are based upon the few extremists that make the news. I am by no means a runway fur slashing, lab animal releasing, lobbying congress vegan. I chose this lifestyle and dont' owe anyone an explanation. When I'm out & about, I don't attack others for not being vegan. I don't lecture them about how many animals they've killed. Why? Because that's counterproductive. It sends the wrong message & turns people off. Instead, I politely answer any questions they may have, but that's it. I never judge nor give my opinion. The results? So far 5 friends have gone vegan. Not because I preach to them, but because they can see for their own eyes the benefits & can make an educated decision.</div><div>
</div><div>OP, when you view yourself as so high & mightly, putting down everyone around you for not agreeing with you, you're doing yourself a disservice. Instead of helping your cause, you're hurting it. </div>

em01092 · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:7241ae33-4ed3-4a2d-96e7-e11b7382e951">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides : This is the root of the issue here. For example, I'm vegan. There are a lot of misconceptions and preconceived notions about vegans that are based upon the few extremists that make the news. I am by no means a runway fur slashing, lab animal releasing, lobbying congress vegan. I chose this lifestyle and dont' owe anyone an explanation. When I'm out & about, I don't attack others for not being vegan. I don't lecture them about how many animals they've killed. Why? Because that's counterproductive. It sends the wrong message & turns people off. Instead, I politely answer any questions they may have, but that's it. I never judge nor give my opinion. The results? So far 5 friends have gone vegan. Not because I preach to them, but because they can see for their own eyes the benefits & can make an educated decision. OP, when you view yourself as so high & mightly, putting down everyone around you for not agreeing with you, you're doing yourself a disservice. Instead of helping your cause, you're hurting it.
Posted by rlavach[/QUOTE]

<div>*Claps for fellow April knottie* </div><div>
</div><div>Agreed. Like I'm not going to biitch out my friend who is addressing HER invitations as Mr. and Mrs. Scott Hislastname, but I just have my opinion on it. Likewise, I doubt SHE is going to call me up and complain because I addressed hers to Mr. and Mrs. HisLastName. I say how I feel on here about it, because it's relevant, but I'm not on a crusade to end this practice. Would I like to see it end? Yes. Is is going to happen? Maybe one day, but I have to accept that it is a current standard of addressing a married couple. </div>

VegasCalling · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:8410d027-215f-4844-845f-7097689e796a">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides : *Claps for fellow April knottie* Agreed. Like I'm not going to biitch out my friend who is addressing HER invitations as Mr. and Mrs. Scott Hislastname, but I just have my opinion on it. Likewise, I doubt SHE is going to call me up and complain because I addressed hers to Mr. and Mrs. HisLastName. I say how I feel on here about it, because it's relevant, but I'm not on a crusade to end this practice. <strong>Would I like to see it end? Yes. Is is going to happen? Maybe one day, but I have to accept that it is a current standard of addressing a married couple. </strong>
Posted by em01092[/QUOTE]

<div>
</div><div>WOW!!! LOL!!! Good thing people like you (ppl too scared/weak/lazy to fight for justice) have been outnumbered by those who will fight for what's RIGHT. Good God, if everyone took your attitude, blacks would still be drinking at separate water fountains and women still wouldn't have the vote. </div><div>
</div><div>As to those who say they don't want to be called "feminist" because of us nutso, extremist, bra-burning types: well maybe we don't want you in our club anyway. If all women in history were were like you and too damn wimpy to have a strong, unyielding WAR CRY on the issue of women's rights and gender-based injustice, then we'd still be in the piss-poor state women were in back in the 40s and 50s. I don't want wimps and fakes identifying with me anyway. Don't worry, we'll still fight the fight and keep winning battles in the war for all of you lazy ovaries. </div>

VegasCalling · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:bfb1c714-3221-4c30-b253-59d3e20e2c1b">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE] Also, you told another poster that talking to her was like talking to a tree stump. I really don't know how you could read that and not have it sound very rude.
Posted by Gabrielle76[/QUOTE]

<div>
</div><div>Well you cited the ONE post I wrote where I actually was rude. Bravo, and thanks for missing the multiple examples before it where I was being diplomatic in the face of direct insults. </div>

Gabrielle76 · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:7a728663-6b41-4c5c-ae38-750ecb259c84">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides : Well you cited the ONE post I wrote where I actually was rude. Bravo, and thanks for missing the multiple examples before it where I was being diplomatic in the face of direct insults.
Posted by VegasCalling[/QUOTE]

At the time, it was the only post where you were directly, clearly rude. My point was that you might not have meant to be rude, but it was still happening. I'm not trying to insult you, I'm just trying to point out what's happening in the thread.

redheadfsu · February 2012

My lazy ovaries have helped many a battered woman. So while you scream some crazy war cry in (I assume) academia...I'm on on the front line of your "war."

AdeleDazeem · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:d225d944-ae9b-4c8a-b2d2-091b7761caa7">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides : Are you still in academia? You sound like a grad student that takes themselves way too seriously. Because if you are out of academia and you think this is how you discuss controversial subjects with people who might disagree with you, I do not know how you function.
Posted by redheadfsu[/QUOTE]

::clapping::

This is what I've been wondering from the very beginning of this post.

I also agree with your next post, red. There's so much more I could say, but you ladies are doing much better than me.

KatyRoseM · February 2012

In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_customs-traditions_sexist-wedding-traditions-and-intelligent-brides?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:36Discussion:b246a7e1-c217-4a32-ab47-46dc4b094703Post:6d01c1b6-a506-4a1b-a8f5-dbf897714c50">Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides</a>:
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Sexist wedding traditions and intelligent brides : WOW!!! LOL!!! Good thing people like you (ppl too scared/weak/lazy to fight for justice) have been outnumbered by those who will fight for what's RIGHT. Good God, if everyone took your attitude, blacks would still be drinking at separate water fountains and women still wouldn't have the vote. As to those who say they don't want to be called "feminist" because of us nutso, extremist, bra-burning types: well maybe we don't want you in our club anyway. If all women in history were were like you and too damn wimpy to have a strong, unyielding WAR CRY on the issue of women's rights and gender-based injustice, then we'd still be in the piss-poor state women were in back in the 40s and 50s. I don't want wimps and fakes identifying with me anyway. Don't worry, we'll still fight the fight and keep winning battles in the war for all of you lazy ovaries.
Posted by VegasCalling[/QUOTE]

Many women who don't want to be called feminist are perfectly strong and fighting for what's right, they just don't like how you do it or what you think is right. Frankly, I think its right to address all people how they wish to be addressed, as a way of respecting that person, so when my friend wants her invitation to read Mr. and Mrs. what's his name, then thats how I address it. Further even if this were WRONG is it really the fight thats worth having right now, or are there maybe real problems we should be focusing on instead of telling other women how they should be addressed and what their name should be or how to walk in at their wedding? Lastly, I believe that many of the things women who call themselves feminist do to move women's rights forward to not have the effect they are looking for.

Summer2011Bride · February 2012

OP, most all of your comments to people who disagree with you are either dripping with sarcasm, stereotypical, or downright rude. And it's not just this thread. In the "Alcohol" thread over on E right now, you basically say that people who have dry weddings will have no fun and are a bunch of uptight "religious nutjobs." Yeah because calling someone that is not only offensive to people who are religious, but extraordinarily stereotypical and untrue.

Like others have said, it is HOW you say things. If you really just wanted an intellectual discussion here, you would have listened to the opposing side's argument and then maturely and CALMLY discussed it. Just like in the Alcohol thread, you could have simply said that you find weddings without alcohol to be boring, personally, without saying they are ALWAYS no fun for anyone and making the insensitive religious comment. You like to stir crap up. You purposely use this abrasive tone to do just that. Oh, and this is coming from someone who has over 7 years of education beyond high school, which I'm not quite sure has anything to do with our discussion here, and the only reason I can think of to why you brought that up is to try and make yourself appear as smart or intelligent or worldly. No, having an education doesn't automatically make you those things. I typically see those qualities through what people SAY and how they ACT.

LauraChristin · February 2012

I'm still wondering if you wear an engagement ring. And if you do if your FI does, too.

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