Christian Weddings

FI is moving in and I feel physically sick....

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Re: FI is moving in and I feel physically sick....

  • mrandmrsbristmrandmrsbrist member
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    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_fi-moving-feel-physically-sick?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:e41312de-be38-4b46-8b75-98fe27213c57Post:df08fd98-0708-4e93-bf2e-ef413910bddf">Re: FI is moving in and I feel physically sick....</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: FI is moving in and I feel physically sick.... : Accountability is one someone in her church family addressing the issue, and then getting the whole story. That story includes asking church members for help and receiving none. If they truly believe they are sinning you follow the process of adding people to the discussion, then bringing it to the pastor, etc. I forget the reference for that right now, but it's in there. None of us are the authority on what is ok for others, especially in this case since they aren't sleeping together. So in that sense, no, people shouldn't be judging her. Accountability is different, and doesn't have the tone of "I'm going to decide what's ok and everyone must agree with me".
    Posted by untherapy[/QUOTE]

    I firmly believe that accountability can happen outside the church. The passage you're talking about speaks of dealing with conflict within the church, not accountability.

    I'll say it again. Her FI <strong>does not need to move there </strong>before the wedding. He doesn't have a job yet.

    I also never said, nor implied, that she had to agree with me. OP is going to do whatever OP wants, regardless of what people online are telling her and I realize that.
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  • mrandmrsbristmrandmrsbrist member
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    edited December 2011
    I also realize that accountability and judgement are not the same. Either way, though, we're called to both of them as Christians. This being the internet does not excuse me from either of those callings.
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  • FaithCaitlinFaithCaitlin member
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    edited December 2011
    Okay.. FI really wanted to comment on this. I feel awkward posting it as I do not know where I stand on the issue. If someone would like to comment on what he has written, feel free but I will have no response and he doesn't have a Knot account! ;) Here is his POV:

    I would like to address the way everyone seems to think that living together before marriage is wrong. I would think it convincing enough to look at the situation this couple faces and grant them this decision. I see a lot of you posting about how we should avoid the appearances of sin/evil, but I hardly see how this is sin. A certificate does not prove you are married. You aren’t one day not married then the next day automatically accepted into God’s graces for having a ceremony and an audience. If these two are truly in love and have offered their lives together to God, then who can say they are not married?
    If the issue is not one of actually being married and more about not letting people see you living together before you are officially married, I think we should recall Matthew 7:3 which reads “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?” We are rolling in wealth. We have leisure time to get on this website and talk about things that are mostly inconsequential. We have money to pay for a wedding (a party) and access this website from our internet-enabled computers and devices. We have all this time and money that we are keeping from the poor and the lonely because we love ourselves more than we love God or His people. The truth is that if we want to avoid the appearance of sin, we ought to get off this website and cancel any fancy wedding plans for something more modest so that we can give that extra time and money to a man who cannot feed his family, a homeless woman who just wants someone to talk to, or, even starting small, to a family member or friend that we haven’t talked to in weeks. We so eagerly call out the sins we have known since we were 5 years old (10 commandments, anyone?), yet so callously ignore the sins our parents, friends, and culture have taught us to ignore.
    And this:
    “Honestly, though, I have no idea why kalizoomba posted if she wasn't looking for accountability. Maybe she can answer that, though.”
    I don’t really see how snaky remarks like this line up with how we ought to be “speaking the truth in love” (Epesians 4:15) :/

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  • fpaemp2011fpaemp2011 member
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    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_fi-moving-feel-physically-sick?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:e41312de-be38-4b46-8b75-98fe27213c57Post:b09c805e-e5b5-4311-b126-d53992a21139">Re: FI is moving in and I feel physically sick....</a>:
    [QUOTE] I would like to address the way everyone seems to think that living together before marriage is wrong. I would think it convincing enough to look at the situation this couple faces and grant them this decision. I see a lot of you posting about how we should avoid the appearances of sin/evil, but I hardly see how this is sin. A certificate does not prove you are married. You aren’t one day not married then the next day automatically accepted into God’s graces for having a ceremony and an audience. If these two are truly in love and have offered their lives together to God, then who can say they are not married?
    Posted by FaithCaitlin[/QUOTE]<div><span style="font-size:12px;" class="Apple-style-span">In Malachi 2:14, marriage is described as a holy covenant.  In the Jewish custom, they signed a written agreement at the time of the marriage, after about a year of betrothal where they lived apart while the groom prepared the home for his bride.  The ceremony is meant to be a public demonstration of a couple's commitment to a covenant relationship.  It's not the "ceremony" that's important in a marriage, its the couple's covenant commitment before God AND men. </span></div><div><span style="font-size:12px;" class="Apple-style-span">
    </span></div><div><span style="font-size:12px;" class="Apple-style-span">There are some who use the argument that having sex is what "marries" a couple.  Jesus blasted that out of the water when He was talking to the Samaritan woman at the well.  John 4:17-18.  </span></div><div>
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  • mrandmrsbristmrandmrsbrist member
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    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_fi-moving-feel-physically-sick?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:e41312de-be38-4b46-8b75-98fe27213c57Post:b09c805e-e5b5-4311-b126-d53992a21139">Re: FI is moving in and I feel physically sick....</a>:
    [QUOTE]“Honestly, though, I have no idea why kalizoomba posted if she wasn't looking for accountability. Maybe she can answer that, though.” I don’t really see how snaky remarks like this line up with how we ought to be “speaking the truth in love” (Epesians 4:15) :/
    Posted by FaithCaitlin[/QUOTE]

    I probably should have just stayed out of this. That wasn't meant to be snarky at all. I come off confrontational a lot of the time when I don't mean to. I'll watch what I post more carefully from here on out...
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  • edited December 2011
    i didnt see that as snarky. 

    faith, your hubby is not really on par with that argument. ive heard that argument from people who want to justify things they know are wrong. living together is a sin because it gives the appearance that premarital sex is occuring. and yes, it absolutely matters what other people think when it comes to this. how the heck are we going to claim to have been changed, to live different and inspired lives due to the love of christ when we look exactly the same.

    • kali, at the end of the day you have to live with the consequences of your decisions, just like i have to live with mine. grace is always available, but i sure wish we had to use it a whole lot less.
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  • edited December 2011
    excuse the punctuation. my phone is not cooperating...
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  • iamjoesgurliamjoesgurl member
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    edited December 2011
    It seems like you desire to seek God's will and I will join you in praying that He will reveal that to you.  If you feel that this situation is not God's will and you are literally feeling ill, it seems like you are saying that you know what God's will is.  I hope that you will figure it all out.  
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  • AllyG303AllyG303 member
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    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_fi-moving-feel-physically-sick?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:e41312de-be38-4b46-8b75-98fe27213c57Post:20c2bae8-0a9c-422c-ac16-8e3cc9352506">Re: FI is moving in and I feel physically sick....</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: FI is moving in and I feel physically sick.... : Wrong. As believers, <strong>we're called to judge other believers</strong>. (Psalms 37:30, 1 Cor 1:10, 1 Cor 2:15) How the heck does accountability work if there's no judgement? Honestly, though, I have no idea why kalizoomba posted if she wasn't looking for accountability. Maybe she can answer that, though.
    Posted by mrandmrsbrist[/QUOTE]
     

    Ouch...nowhere in those verses does it take about being acceptable to judge people. 
    As believers, we should be ACCOUNTABLE and help teach right from wrong. Please step off your high horse and let God be the one to judge. 
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  • fpaemp2011fpaemp2011 member
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    edited December 2011
    1 Corinthians 5:9-13
    I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.  But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler--not even to eat with such a one.  For what have I to do with judging outsiders?  Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?  God judges those outside.  "Purge the evil person from among you."

  • mrandmrsbristmrandmrsbrist member
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    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_fi-moving-feel-physically-sick?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:e41312de-be38-4b46-8b75-98fe27213c57Post:5de5f4e1-1a83-46b9-a3d5-8c1dc094ccdc">Re: FI is moving in and I feel physically sick....</a>:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: FI is moving in and I feel physically sick.... :   Ouch...nowhere in those verses does it take about being acceptable to judge people.  As believers, we should be ACCOUNTABLE and help teach right from wrong. Please step off your high horse and let God be the one to judge. 
    Posted by AllyG303[/QUOTE]

    Emily beat me to it. See her post.

    And since we're talking about snark, I'd really appreciate it if you toned yours down. No one was being rude to you. Thank you.
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  • edited December 2011
    Alright.  That's it.  I'm done with this.

    1.   John 4:17-18 can hardly be misconstrued as a verse disproving the fact that having sex does not make you married.

    2.  The whole point of consummation is that having sex seals the marriage.  You can legally annull a marriage if sex was never had between the two partners.

    3.  Since none of us here are Jewish, and in fact the law that the Jews follow were completed and fulfilled by Jesus' death on the cross, what the Jews "traditionally" did for their marriage ceremonies has literally zero bearing on what we do today.

    4.  If I went to the courthouse today and got a marriage license signed by a man who was arbitrarily given the "power" by the state to marry me, and whether God was mentioned or not, I had one person "witness" the event, would you all SUDDENLY come down off your high horses and concede that it's OK for Matt and I to live together?

    I hate to knock all you "good" Christians down off your pedestals, but if you think that the issues of premarital sex and a definition of marriage are black and white in your Bibles, you are far more confused than you will ever know.

    Armed with the knowledge that Paul's definition of "sexual immorality" pertained mainly to homosexuality and orgies, I DARE you to search your Bibles and bring me back verses that say explicitly (1) premarital sex is wrong; (2) sex itself is not the factor that creates a marriage.  Ready?  Go!

    ETA:  If you get offended by this post, now you know how I feel.  None of you are perfect either.  Go check your planks before you check my specks.
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  • iamjoesgurliamjoesgurl member
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    edited December 2011
    Obviously there is disagreement here and there are differences of opinion regarding how to interpret the scriptures.  I think that the real point here is that Tiffany is going through a rough time and seeking God's will for her situation.  She came here for support and while we may or may not agree with how she is handling it, we should ultimately be praying that God will reveal His will to her.  And that she have peace.  This should be a time of hope and joy for her, not pain and uneasiness.
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  • mrandmrsbristmrandmrsbrist member
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    edited December 2011
    Sessions, I'm sorry that you're offended, but I get the feeling that you wouldn't be offended if things didn't happen so that you and Matt had move in together.
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  • DramaGeekDramaGeek member
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    edited December 2011
    Ditto Lisa - regardless of what any of us think, Kalizoomba is obviously not comfortable with it as she's feeling physically ill over the situation.  Whenever I feel sick about something, I know it's a sign that I need to step back and rethink or try another solution.  I saw her post as a cry for help to brainstorm other solutions to their situation since she obviously wasn't feeling good about the direction they were headed.  Perhaps I read too much into it, but that's what I saw.  Ah, the joy of the internet, where sarcasm needs it's own font and we're all free to read between the lines and fill in any missing details.

    Kali, how are things going?  How are you feeling about the situation now?  Were you able to ask for help at church again today?  What was the response?
  • edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_fi-moving-feel-physically-sick?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:e41312de-be38-4b46-8b75-98fe27213c57Post:089030ad-be9e-4ee8-9ae9-9d87addaa877">Re: FI is moving in and I feel physically sick....</a>:
    [QUOTE]Sessions, I'm sorry that you're offended, but I get the feeling that you wouldn't be offended if things didn't happen so that you and Matt had move in together.
    Posted by mrandmrsbrist[/QUOTE]
    I just hate to see what happens when people talk about things in black and white terms that are NOT black and white in the Bible.  A lot of the ladies here were raised in church by Christian parents.  Some of the things you learned growing up in that situation are so ingrained in your minds that you start believing them as Biblical truths.  For instance, premarital sex is wrong.  Believe it or not, that is actually NOT in the New Testament!  But it's been so ingrained in everything you've learned that you start thinking of it as an absolute.

    I'm what I like to call a "self-made" Christian.  I didn't set foot in a church until I was 12, and even then it's because my parents had just separated and got back together and my mom wanted us to.  We went for about a year before my mom pulled us all back out.  At 16 I started going to church by myself of my own volition, and my parents called it "cult practice" and my mom would periodically prevent me from going because she thought it was a bad influence on me!  She would GROUND ME FROM CHURCH!

    I grew up learning about God, Jesus, and the Bible pretty much on my own, minus the influence of a few years of Christian school in elementary.  I didn't have Sunday school songs or daddy's teachings about premarital sex.  All I had were the Bible and what it said.  All I know is the Bible.  And I know that I didn't learn that premarital sex was wrong in there.

    Now, I'm not saying that I condone living together or having sex before marriage.  But I am saying that it is NOT as clearly defined in the Bible as you think it is.  In certain circumstances, it can be what's right for certain people.
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  • edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_fi-moving-feel-physically-sick?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:e41312de-be38-4b46-8b75-98fe27213c57Post:95fab97e-52ac-4078-a596-fdeb0d2e38be">Re: FI is moving in and I feel physically sick....</a>:
    [QUOTE]Ditto Lisa - regardless of what any of us think, Kalizoomba is obviously not comfortable with it as she's feeling physically ill over the situation.  Whenever I feel sick about something, I know it's a sign that I need to step back and rethink or try another solution.  I saw her post as a cry for help to brainstorm other solutions to their situation since she obviously wasn't feeling good about the direction they were headed.  Perhaps I read too much into it, but that's what I saw.  Ah, the joy of the internet, where sarcasm needs it's own font and we're all free to read between the lines and fill in any missing details. Kali, how are things going?  How are you feeling about the situation now?  Were you able to ask for help at church again today?  What was the response?
    Posted by DramaGeek[/QUOTE]
    I second this.  How are things going?
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  • mrandmrsbristmrandmrsbrist member
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    edited December 2011
    But still. You're offended because you and Matt live together. That's what it comes down to.

    Taking your posts into consideration (which I did...I needed time to think and pray about what you were saying), I still stand by my posts where I said pre-marital sex and living together is wrong. And here's my "it's super early for me, I love you and I'm trying to explain my thought process because I think you're awesome" why...

    The reason the Bible doesn't come straight out and say "Hey dudes, pre-marital sex? Not okay" is because pre-marital sex didn't happen, hardly ever, if at all. Neither did two people who were unmarried living together. Traditionally, (I think Emily covered this, but like I said, it's early, so I'm going to attempt to repeat her without finding her post) the man and the woman lived at home with their parents until they were married (Matthew 19:5), which leads me to believe there was no sex until then. Who knows, maybe I'm sheltered and just believing what my church has told me, and there was pre-marital sex...moving on.

    Sex was what consecrated a marriage. And after that, within the context of the marriage, sex was used to procreate. Why would sex outside of marriage be okay if it was used to seal a marriage and make it official?

    As for living together...
    We agree that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, yeah? And we agree that in both the OT and the NT, men and women didn't live together before they were married, yeah? And we agree that scripture, both OT and NT, are God-breathed, yeah? So why would a God who is always the same be okay with people living together now when He wasn't okay with it then? And the reason I say that God isn't okay with it goes back to the woman at the well in John 4. Specifically, verses 17 and 18.

    All this to say, I think you're awesome. And I tried to stay out of the post where you did pretty much exactly what Kalizoomba did and announced that you and Matt were moving in together. But I still think that what you're doing is biblically wrong, even if you don't.
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  • edited December 2011
    I agree wtih Brist. I have studied scripture academically, down to the original languages, and there is absolutely nothing to make me believe that living together before marriage would be ok. 

    You are correct in saying there is no verse explicitly stating that premarital sex is wrong, but there is pleanty of instructions regarding sexual immorality which includes premarital sex. 

    I don't believe as much of scripture is as black and white as we would like it to be. I tend to be liberal in my interpretations, (I'm a female pastor, which is unheard of in more traditional black-and-white churches). 

    So, I agree with you, but I don't. What does your pastor say about living together? 

    I, too, want to know how kalizoomba's feeling! 
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  • edited December 2011
    I love you guys too, don't get me wrong!  I just saw an opportunity to clear up a common misconception and shouldn't have done that while offended.

    I don't know if you could consider FI and I to be LTBM depending on your definition of marriage, and our intentions.

    FI and I have prayed about this and sought counsel from Christian elders.  We were supposed to go to the courhouse the day we got the keys to our apartment, but we ended up spending all day at the leading office fighting to get a better apartment.

    Then we went to the courthouse the day after we got the keys and signed a marriage license, intending to JOP and be done with it, but the JOP wasn't there!  So we left with the intention of going back on our next chance (a couple weeks later).

    Well, our city's downtown and courthouse (like anyone else's) is very pedestrian.  We walked a mile EASY the last time we were down there.  Three days before we were supposed to go back, FI fell down the stairs and nearly broke his ankle!  He was put in an orthopedic boot and told to avoid walking as much as possible for 4-5 days.  Well, there went that!

    After a while, I start taking things as a sign.  We decided to just wait until our already-planned wedding in November to get married.  In the meantime, we are living together with combined bank accounts and have a valid marriage license that only needs an officant's signature.  In the state of Alabama, we'll be common-law married in about another week; probably sooner if I went ahead and changed my name.

    As far as we're concerned, we've made a commitment in front of God and our families (and even the bank and government) to be joined together for the rest of our lives.  We might not have put on a tux and dress and had a ceremony yet, but we're technically Biblically married already.  So we don't see it as living in sin.
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  • edited December 2011
    The hard thing I have wtih being "biblically married" before being legally married is that is doesn't carry as much weight. At this point, you can still break up without getting a divorce. It's not forever yet (as much as you vow that it is). 

    I hold marriage in the highest regard. For me, marriage is the ultimate commitment meaning it's committing legally, spiritually, financially, all at the same time. No going back, no outs or do-overs, no easy splits.

    For me it's not legit until it's legit.  
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  • edited December 2011
    1. I also hold marriage in the highest regard, and I don't believe in divorce.

    2. You have to get a divorce from a common law marriage, so I'd call that legally binding.

    3. Your definition of legit may not be the same as mine.
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  • edited December 2011
    Actually, I looked it up, FI and I ARE common law married according to Alabama law.  Huh.

    But the point is that it shouldn't matter.  This used to be the board where no one got judged for their decisions, you know?  I guess I just miss that.
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  • mrandmrsbristmrandmrsbrist member
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    edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_fi-moving-feel-physically-sick?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural%20Wedding%20BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:e41312de-be38-4b46-8b75-98fe27213c57Post:f263ced4-00e7-47bb-a7f4-495ce92c0903">Re: FI is moving in and I feel physically sick....</a>:
    [QUOTE]This used to be the board where no one got judged for their decisions, you know?  I guess I just miss that.
    Posted by sessionswedding[/QUOTE]

    I was doing some Googling yesterday looking for the post where you announced that you and Matt were moving in together. I never did find it, but I did find another post from January where there was a lot of judging going on. It seems like we've chased off a lot of people since then...

    Honestly though, I'd rather have a whole bunch of girls with different opinions and views than one board where everyone just agrees on every single thing. But maybe I just like drama...who knows.
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  • edited December 2011
    Totally not judging, but if you get to express your opinion, I should get to express mine without the label of "judging." 

    If we go that route, everyone who disagrees will be labeled as judging. I don't think we should shy away from controversial things, it's healthy to challenge one another and seek to understand as long as there's a mutual agreement to be respectful, even if we disagree. 
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  • edited December 2011
    @djhar, from my studies, "fornication" and "sexual immorality" in Paul's day tended to mean deviant sexual behavior:  orgies, pedophilia, etc.  It could in some instances also refer to homosexuality.  It's my understanding that by the definition of those phrases back then, including premartial sex under their umbrella would be a stretch.  It's one of those things that's open to interpretation.  You can include it under that umbrella or not, kind of depending on how you read it.  I am reminded of the part in 1 Corinthians where Paul is explaining whether or not to eat meat and food offered to idols, and that you should do it if you feel like it's OK for you, but if you're in the presence of someone it would offend don't do it, etc.

    I do agree that having differing opinions on a topic are good and can encourage healthy debate.  But the past couple of controversial topics that have come up around here, have left me feeling looked down on.  Taking HBC was talked down, LTBM was talked down, etc.  (FWIW, FI and I are technically not LTBM as we are actually common law married, come to find out.)  I feel like if I take the non-conventionally-accepted view point - for instance, that living under the same roof but sleeping in different rooms for a few short weeks due to logistical issues is no big deal - that I'm going to be less accepted myself.
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  • edited December 2011
    I totally am not looking down on you, for sure disagreeing though. 

    Can I ask where you're getting those interpretations from? I'm curious because I've never heard that interpretation of Paul's message. 

    Honestly, if you're knowingly vocalizing an unpopular Christian viewpoint, I would expect to take some heat. For example, I'm a female pastor, there is a case against my decision to do that, but I'm confident in it being God's design for my life. 


    PostCeremony-131.1
  • edited December 2011
    In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/cultural-wedding-boards_christian-weddings_fi-moving-feel-physically-sick?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Cultural Wedding BoardsForum:464687ae-7bc1-4360-9aea-999e11f1e1adDiscussion:e41312de-be38-4b46-8b75-98fe27213c57Post:29b37aba-556e-4df7-bec6-7c81a85c716a">Re: FI is moving in and I feel physically sick....</a>:
    [QUOTE]I totally am not looking down on you, for sure disagreeing though.  <strong>Can I ask where you're getting those interpretations from? I'm curious because I've never heard that interpretation of Paul's message.</strong>  Honestly, if you're knowingly vocalizing an unpopular Christian viewpoint, I would expect to take some heat. For example, I'm a female pastor, there is a case against my decision to do that, but I'm confident in it being God's design for my life. 
    Posted by RebeccaJac[/QUOTE]
    It was hinted at in a Survey of the New Testament class I took in college, then in a debate years ago (where I was taking the "Bible is black and white on this issue" stance), someone taking the other side was able to show me that it's actually not as much of a black-and-white issue as I thought.
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  • edited December 2011
    Ohh ok. The issue has me very curious now. FI was getting mad at me because I was getting into my Blblical Greek lexicons and books on Paul last night instead of hanging out. Whoops ;)
    PostCeremony-131.1
  • leahkateleahkate member
    First Comment First Anniversary Combo Breaker
    edited December 2011
    I want to know how OP's FI got loans to live on when he didn't have a job? The fact that he would rather take on debt than work is disturbing to me.
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