Parenting

NYCBruin · June 2013

StageManager14 said:

TK won't let me edit for some reason. But I'll also point out that most studies about spanking use relatively small focus groups of parents who use spanking as a PRIMARY punishment vs a small group who do not use it AT ALL. If you research the studies, not just the excerpts pulled out for parenting websites or news sound bytes, you find that there is no conclusive evidence that occasional spanking has any long term effects and that the majority of households that use spanking as a primary discipline tactic are also prone to yelling and other forms of aggression. Again, correlation vs causation.

This. Reminds me of the old saying, "Statistics are often used like a drunk uses a lamp post, more for support than illumination."

Statistics can be very useful, but until you really dive into the methodology of a study and consider all possible alternate explanations and attempt to control/eliminate them, they aren't as reliable or helpful as people make them out to be.

There's a reason one of the most popular books assigned to introduction to statistics classes is titled "How to Lie with Statistics."

KDM323 · June 2013

Spanking: I do not believe in spanking and have zero intention of spanking. *Except in very specific circumstances such as a small child running into a street, sticking something in an outlet, etc...and by "small child" I mean a toddler who is not capable of understanding reasoning, has been told 'no' about this behavior previously and does it more than once.

I believe that there are much more effective parenting techniques than spanking as a punishment.

Circumcision:    If my hypothetical future children turn out to be boys, this will ultimately be my fiance's decision. I'll of course direct him to read pros and cons online...but if the future baby has a penis, that's his territory.

Attachment Parenting: I believe in certain aspects of this and not in other aspects. Setting age appropriate boundaries/expectations? Yes. Breastfeeding? Sure...if it works. (But I'm not going to beat myself up if for some reason it doesn't) Co-sleeping? ONLY with a co-sleeping crib next to the bed. And ONLY when the baby is really little and not sleeping through the night.    Positive discipline? Sure. If it works using positive discipline is a good thing. But NOT the only type of discipline I plan on having at my disposal.

As for the 'every kid gets a trophy' mentality - ugh. Nope. Every kid who does their best deserves a high five and being told that they should ALWAYS do their best...but simple fact is, not everyone is going to be a winner. Not everyone is going to be an A student/top of the class/athlete, etc. That's life. Might as well teach them that lesson early and in a way that helps to build their character and be graceful losers AND graceful winners.

KeptInStitches · June 2013

NYCBruin said:
This. Reminds me of the old saying, "Statistics are often used like a drunk uses a lamp post, more for support than illumination."

Statistics can be very useful, but until you really dive into the methodology of a study and consider all possible alternate explanations and attempt to control/eliminate them, they aren't as reliable or helpful as people make them out to be.

There's a reason one of the most popular books assigned to introduction to statistics classes is titled "How to Lie with Statistics."

That's it. I'm officially putting that in my next seminar.

NYCBruin · June 2013

KeptInStitches said:

NYCBruin said:
This. Reminds me of the old saying, "Statistics are often used like a drunk uses a lamp post, more for support than illumination."

Statistics can be very useful, but until you really dive into the methodology of a study and consider all possible alternate explanations and attempt to control/eliminate them, they aren't as reliable or helpful as people make them out to be.

There's a reason one of the most popular books assigned to introduction to statistics classes is titled "How to Lie with Statistics."

That's it. I'm officially putting that in my next seminar.

Do it! The professor I had for one of my first stats classes used to say it all the time. He said if we only remembered one thing from his class it should be to never take statistics at face value and always ask questions about the methodology. And this was a guy who got paid BIG bucks to testify as an expert in products liability cases.

AddieCake · June 2013

drexelkathy said:

Circumcision: If my hypothetical future children turn out to be boys, this will ultimately be my fiance's decision. I'll of course direct him to read pros and cons online...but if the future baby has a penis, that's his territory.

You don't think it's something you should discuss and decide together?

Peledreamsofrain · June 2013

StageManager14 said:

MoonlightSilver said:
Unsafe crib deaths are higher than co-sleeping infant deaths, and countries where co-sleeping is normal actually have the lowest rates of SIDS. It's really a matter of figuring out what's best for you- but to act as if co-sleeping is dangerous and crib-sleeping isn't dangerous is silly.

It seems like some people are judging attachment parenting based upon "worst case scenarios" that might not even have real world truths behind them. For instance, I see absolutely no connection between attachment parenting and attachment therapy, other than the word in the name. As there are whole countries that participate in co-sleeping as a normal practice, I am willing to bet that switching a cosleeper to their own bed isn't impossible, though it may take a little extra time. On the other hand, the benefits of breastfeeding are well established, and attachment parenting allows for an easier breastfeeding relationship.
Assuming you CAN breastfeed. I don't think anyone is contending that having easier and more direct access to an infant at night is a bad thing.

I realize this is general and not aimed at me, but I did want to point out again that my issues with attachment parenting are very much based on actual and common practices that I personally disagree with. I don't berate others for choosing it, but I won't. Chances are good that I'll do a lot of things that will outrage others as a parent, and for the most part I see it as a "to each their own" situation.

And the main reasons I won't be cosleeping is
because a. It WOULD be dangerous in my case
and b. the cats.

Lol my H and I barely survive sleeping next to each other. just last week I accidentally smacked him across the face with my forearm. No WAY would I even try putting an infant in the mix.

MoonlightSilver · June 2013

StageManager14 said:

Unsafe crib deaths are higher than co-sleeping infant deaths, and countries where co-sleeping is normal actually have the lowest rates of SIDS. It's really a matter of figuring out what's best for you- but to act as if co-sleeping is dangerous and crib-sleeping isn't dangerous is silly.

It seems like some people are judging attachment parenting based upon "worst case scenarios" that might not even have real world truths behind them. For instance, I see absolutely no connection between attachment parenting and attachment therapy, other than the word in the name. As there are whole countries that participate in co-sleeping as a normal practice, I am willing to bet that switching a cosleeper to their own bed isn't impossible, though it may take a little extra time. On the other hand, the benefits of breastfeeding are well established, and attachment parenting allows for an easier breastfeeding relationship.
Assuming you CAN breastfeed. I don't think anyone is contending that having easier and more direct access to an infant at night is a bad thing. I realize this is general and not aimed at me, but I did want to point out again that my issues with attachment parenting are very much based on actual and common practices that I personally disagree with. I don't berate others for choosing it, but I won't. Chances are good that I'll do a lot of things that will outrage others as a parent, and for the most part I see it as a "to each their own" situation. And the main reasons I won't be cosleeping is because a. It WOULD be dangerous in my case and b. the cats.

I would like to point out that this was not directed at you at all because you had a clear, factual based opinion that was specific to you and didn't judge attachment parenting as a whole.

As for "can breastfeed" - only 2% of the population can't actually breastfeed. So it's not unreasonable to assume a woman can until proven otherwise. Plus attachment parenting allows for easier and better breastfeeding during the daytime, too.

Peledreamsofrain · June 2013

Post removed due to GBCK

QueerFemme · June 2013

I'm super late to this party, but I am firmly in the "no spanking" camp. Spanking, in my opinion IS a form of violence. Anytime you lay your hands on another person as punishment or in anger, you are committing a violent act. (not including consensual BDSM).

Are some forms of spanking less violent or abusive, sure. But, when you teach a child that violence is an appropriate punishment when someone does something that wrongs you, don't be surprised or even mad when your 4 or 5 year old does the same thing on the playground or at school. You have taught them that hitting is an "ok" thing to do.

KDM323 · June 2013

AddieL73 said:

drexelkathy said:

Circumcision: If my hypothetical future children turn out to be boys, this will ultimately be my fiance's decision. I'll of course direct him to read pros and cons online...but if the future baby has a penis, that's his territory.

You don't think it's something you should discuss and decide together?

We would absolutely discuss it together. But, if we didn't agree, his opinion would outweigh mine as long as it was thought out and researched... the reverse would be true when it would come to any potential girls that we might have. In my opinion (and this is just me) the parent of the same sex gets the deciding 'vote' if the parents don't agree (For instance, with a girl and the HPV vaccine).

QueerFemme · June 2013

drexelkathy said:

AddieL73 said:

drexelkathy said:

Circumcision: If my hypothetical future children turn out to be boys, this will ultimately be my fiance's decision. I'll of course direct him to read pros and cons online...but if the future baby has a penis, that's his territory.

You don't think it's something you should discuss and decide together?

We would absolutely discuss it together. But, if we didn't agree, his opinion would outweigh mine as long as it was thought out and researched... the reverse would be true when it would come to any potential girls that we might have. In my opinion (and this is just me) the parent of the same sex gets the deciding 'vote' if the parents don't agree (For instance, with a girl and the HPV vaccine).

Am I the only one that finds the bolded part completely ridiculous?

wittykitty14 · June 2013

FierceFemme said:

drexelkathy said:

AddieL73 said:

drexelkathy said:

Circumcision: If my hypothetical future children turn out to be boys, this will ultimately be my fiance's decision. I'll of course direct him to read pros and cons online...but if the future baby has a penis, that's his territory.

You don't think it's something you should discuss and decide together?

We would absolutely discuss it together. But, if we didn't agree, his opinion would outweigh mine as long as it was thought out and researched... the reverse would be true when it would come to any potential girls that we might have. In my opinion (and this is just me) the parent of the same sex gets the deciding 'vote' if the parents don't agree (For instance, with a girl and the HPV vaccine).

Am I the only one that finds the bolded part completely ridiculous?

Nope.

southernbelle0915 · June 2013

@fiercefemme - I also find it ridiculous.

I definitely think the owner of certain traits can and should contribute their perspective, but the "I have a penis and since this discussion involves a penis and we don't agree I trump you" shouldn't be the law of the land and doesn't fly with me.

It's not that I don't respect their perspective but to me it's a decision we make together for our child.

QueerFemme · June 2013

Right. I mean, I would certainly take past experiences with one's own penis into consideration during dialogue, but to just say that one person has the final say because they own those parts is completely crazy, in my opinion.

KDM323 · June 2013

So, for those of you who disagree...how do you propose coming to a decision on something like circumcision if (for instance) the father of the baby is pro-circumcision and the mother of the baby is anti-circumcision. Or the mother of a child is pro-HPV vaccinations and the father of the child is anti-HPV vaccinations.

Let's just say that both parents have done their own respective research, both are firm in their POV's and there is no compromise available.

How do you reach a decision as a couple in situations like this? I'm sincerely curious and open to how you would make these types of decisions in your marriages when there really isn't a middle ground and neither spouse is budging from their point of view.

TKzilla · June 2013

So if the kid is the same gender as you, that makes that kid more YOUR kid than your partner's?

QueerFemme · June 2013

drexelkathy said:

So, for those of you who disagree...how do you propose coming to a decision on something like circumcision if (for instance) the father of the baby is pro-circumcision and the mother of the baby is anti-circumcision. Or the mother of a child is pro-HPV vaccinations and the father of the child is anti-HPV vaccinations.

Let's just say that both parents have done their own respective research, both are firm in their POV's and there is no compromise available.

How do you reach a decision as a couple in situations like this? I'm sincerely curious and open to how you would make these types of decisions in your marriages when there really isn't a middle ground and neither spouse is budging from their point of view.

I am in the same boat as Stage. If we can't reach an agreement, we do nothing. And honestly, if we have to keep talking about it over, and over and over and over again, we will. One of us will probably eventually break, or see the other person's point of view and come to some compromise (I realize there is no compromise when it comes to cutting off a portion of a person's penis or giving them an injection of some sort. you either do it, or you don't), but I just cannot ever forsee a time in our lives where we wouldn't be able to talk through something, even if it took us hours and hours and hours, and talking to medical professionals, reading, etc.

I would probably require both of us to go sit down together and talk to doctors and other medical professionals and get even MORE educated. Hopefully, eventually we will feel educated enough to make a decision either way.

But, just because I have a vagina doesn't mean I'm always going to be right when it comes to decisions about a female child. same goes for owning a penis.

KDM323 · June 2013

I'm talking purely hypothetical here. I truthfully don't see my fiance and I ever having these types of disagreements...but since some of you ladies are already married...I thought perhaps you might share how you make a final decision if you happen to be on two totally different sides of an issue.

StageManager14 said:

However, if it DID, then we would take the course of inaction until such a time that we could both be comfortable with said action, simply because you cannot undo an action but you can usually do said action later.

I like that idea and will file it away for future reference.

QueerFemme · June 2013

Liatris2010 said:

We usually use the whoever feels more strongly rule. We usually use if to figure out what is for dinner, but I think it will work on other things too.

We do too. There is rarely a time that we both feel the same level of stubborness on any situation.

southernbelle0915 · June 2013

StageManager14 said:

FierceFemme said:

Right. I mean, I would certainly take past experiences with one's own penis into consideration during dialogue, but to just say that one person has the final say because they own those parts is completely crazy, in my opinion.

Basically you guys are fucked if you ever have a boy.

This. @drexelkathy how would you advise a same sex couple (no matter what the sex of the child - either 1) they both have the traits or 2) neither have the traits)?

KDM323 · June 2013

southernbelle0915 said:

StageManager14 said:

FierceFemme said:

Right. I mean, I would certainly take past experiences with one's own penis into consideration during dialogue, but to just say that one person has the final say because they own those parts is completely crazy, in my opinion.

Basically you guys are fucked if you ever have a boy.

This. @drexelkathy how would you advise a same sex couple (no matter what the sex of the child - either 1) they both have the traits or 2) neither have the traits)?

I wouldn't because I've never been a parent and I have NO CLUE about parenting. I wasn't giving advice for how I thought anyone else should do things in their relationship. I'm just trying to figure out how it could be done in ours. Apparently the idea I had wasn't so great...that's why I'm asking others (who are married) how they do it in their marriages.

I don't, personally, feel strongly in regards to circumcision one way or the other at this point. It isn't something I've researched. Therefore, at this point, I'd let my FI make the decision. Should that situation ever arise and I find that I feel more strongly...then it will obviously have to be a more in depth discussion. In the same line...I do feel strongly about something like the HPV vaccination. I would be willing to bet that if I asked me FI about it he'd give me a dumb look because he'd have no idea...so I presume that he'd go along with what I want because it is something that I feel more strongly about.

All of this is completely hypothetical because we aren't even married yet, so children are a few years away for us.

TKzilla · June 2013

drexelkathy said:

southernbelle0915 said:

StageManager14 said:

FierceFemme said:

Right. I mean, I would certainly take past experiences with one's own penis into consideration during dialogue, but to just say that one person has the final say because they own those parts is completely crazy, in my opinion.

Basically you guys are fucked if you ever have a boy.

This. @drexelkathy how would you advise a same sex couple (no matter what the sex of the child - either 1) they both have the traits or 2) neither have the traits)?

I wouldn't because I've never been a parent and I have NO CLUE about parenting. I wasn't giving advice for how I thought anyone else should do things in their relationship. I'm just trying to figure out how it could be done in ours. Apparently the idea I had wasn't so great...that's why I'm asking others (who are married parents) how they do it in their marriages.

I don't, personally, feel strongly in regards to circumcision one way or the other at this point. It isn't something I've researched. Therefore, at this point, I'd let my FI make the decision. Should that situation ever arise and I find that I feel more strongly...then it will obviously have to be a more in depth discussion. In the same line...I do feel strongly about something like the HPV vaccination. I would be willing to bet that if I asked me FI about it he'd give me a dumb look because he'd have no idea...so I presume that he'd go along with what I want because it is something that I feel more strongly about.

All of this is completely hypothetical because we aren't even married yet, so children are a few years away for us.

FTFY

KDM323 · June 2013

Good point - thanks!

TKzilla · June 2013

drexelkathy said:

Good point - thanks!

Any time

happyfor25 · June 2013

@drexelkathy, they actually give the HPV vaccine to boys now as well. My son was vaccinated.

Simply Fated · June 2013

Doesn't inaction result in one of the parents getting their way?

QueerFemme · June 2013

Simply Fated said:

Doesn't inaction result in one of the parents getting their way?

Yep. But, action can't be undone. Inaction can.

MoonlightSilver · June 2013

Plus, once you learn you're pregnant you have 40 weeks, give or take, to make a decision before the kid even shows up.

LAM524 · June 2013

I would really like to jump in here regarding the "spanking" issue very aware that nobody here is advocating beatings, only to speak humbly about my experience and share my "rules."

I have 4 siblings. We all received "spankings" by our biological father (as a child he was abused and thrown out at 13) who used a belt. I honestly, do not recall ever receiving a "tap" as a form of discipline or a "time out" or anything other then these beatings. I suffered with horrible flashbacks for years, that only began after my first son was born (7 years after my father was out of our lives). I was the first to have children by at least 8 years and used self-imposed rules religiously in regards to "spanking" my children; never with an object (I had to feel what they felt) and only one contact on the butt....anything more, IMHO, is simply about a frustrated/angry parent; and I never "spanked" if one of my children was physical with another child. I never could/still don't understand how a parent hits their child as they are saying "don't hit/push/bite" etc. I always started out with a warning, a 3 count, then a time out.

I can seriously say I remember how many times I "tapped" them and it never felt right. My sister took on these same guideline but my brothers did not. They spanked their children. Hitting more then once....forcefully grabbed them towards them...pushed them to their rooms/corner etc. In 2 different situations, I saw 2 brothers (years ago) throw a kitten after the little poor little things clawed them. One brother suffered with rage induced blackouts during the many fights he had as a young adult. The other brother would reprimand his dog, IMO, abusively and text book.

Im truly not sure why the men repeated this cycle and we didn't. Perhaps because me and my sister are the oldest, with of course better conscious memories (we are all a year apart) Maybe because we are both female (obviously) more maternal? What I do know is that we made a conscious effort because of our childhood. The oldest of our children is 29 years old and the youngest is 12. Thank God, up to this point, none are violent or have a temper but I know, there are no guarantees as to how they will discipline their own but there is a guarantee of repeat behavior, as with anything us parents do.

ugh...such a yucky subject (but important).

btw...We circumcised all of our boys. I breastfeed 2 of 3 (one fail) but made sure to do it in a rocking chair and not the bed. (My mother had a client who breastfeed in bed, and she rolled over on the baby, suffocating it to death...in a waterbed.)

Ajuliana · July 2013

Now that I'm a puppy parent and the trainer and vet keep saying not to smack her for discipline, I'm not sure why I would ever be counseled to spank my future children. Obviously human children are different, but I have such an aversion to using physical force I don't think I could spank if I wanted to. I remember getting the leather belt on my bare ass as well as seeing it happen to my brothers. I think my parents wised up later though, because my sisters who came 6 years after me never got spanked once.

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