Specifically Excluding Religion Politely?

MyNameIsNot · July 2013

phira said:

It's more of a lack of belief. It's kind of hard to explain. It's like how, since I was raised Jewish, I never believed in an afterlife. It's not as if I was taught, "There is no afterlife." It just never ever came up. It was a non-issue.

I do agree with you, though--it's not an organized religion of any kind.

Lack of belief is agnostic. Atheists actually believe there is no god. Again, semantics. It's not a religion, because it would be stupid to worship nothingness.

LitLover · July 2013

Thanks everyone for their posts. I feel like I may have used a poor choice of words. Religion upsets my fiance because he's spent the last seven months living in hell. His brain tumor was completely asymptomatic and was the size of a golf ball. So he went from being completely well one week to being bedridden and in constant pain the next. And then it was one infection after another all the way to another surgery needing to happen because of complications. He's not violent (believe me, I would have left if he was going to hurt people or get explosively angry), he just has major issues with religion. And he's trying to work through them and he's able to be okay for the most part because he does realize it's his issue.

He is seeing someone, he just doesn't want to be upset on his wedding. He's not going to explode at someone who wishes him a religious blessing but he will be upset by it (and he'll keep that internal just because that's who he is) and he was hoping to avoid being upset on OUR day. We don't want to tell people they CAN'T believe, but more to internalize that belief. Kind of like how an atheist would at a Christian wedding. (And I apologize if this offends any atheists. This is just the example he's used).

Dreamergirl8812 · July 2013

phira said:

My partner and I are both atheists, although we originally came from different faiths (his family is still somewhat Catholic, and I still consider myself Jewish). We're incorporating some traditions in our wedding, but we are both completely adamant that our ceremony wording (and our ketubah wording) be free of any references to god. I'd like to include some sort of wording emphasizing that marriage is a civil institution, or some way of emphasizing the lack of god-talk, but we're worried about making some of my partner's family uncomfortable.

And that's it. If someone says something nice to us to congratulate us, then we will just smile politely and say thank you. If we get a religious-talky card, we'll just smile, roll our eyes a little, and write a thank you note. The end. OP, if your fiance is THIS UPSET ALL THE TIME about any reference to religion, he needs to get therapy and you might want to consider secretly eloping at the courthouse.

I'd like to add, though--atheism is not a belief system or another kind of faith. It's a lack of belief/lack of faith. I do agree that the bottom line is that we need to be respectful of each other, but atheism ain't a religion. Semantics? Probably.

Atheism is not a lack of belief or faith. It only specifies that someone is neither polytheistic or monotheistic. Just because the definition does not include what someone DOES believe, doesn't mean they don't believe in anything.

Buddhists don't believe in a god but they have a very enduring and extensive set of beliefs (though the specifics vary of course, depending on the era, region, and practitioner).

Agnostics only believe that the existence of god or gods (or lack of god) is unknowable and beyond the ability of humans to discover.

ETA: comprehension.

Peledreamsofrain · July 2013

There's a little confusion in this thread about Atheists and Agnostics. They are commonly switched around and misunderstood.

Atheism: You do not believe in any religion, deity, higher power, etc. The universe only operates on logic and science - no higher power necessary.

Agnosticism: You do not believe any one religion has it right. You believe that there MAY be or IS a higher power(s), but that humanity either can't possibly define and conceive of it, or that no organised religion has a complete grasp on it. I am an Agnostic and probably will be for my whole life. I have yet to find a religion that feels right, but I do believe a higher power exists.

efmcc67 · July 2013

LitLover said:

Thanks everyone for their posts. I feel like I may have used a poor choice of words. Religion upsets my fiance because he's spent the last seven months living in hell. His brain tumor was completely asymptomatic and was the size of a golf ball. So he went from being completely well one week to being bedridden and in constant pain the next. And then it was one infection after another all the way to another surgery needing to happen because of complications. He's not violent (believe me, I would have left if he was going to hurt people or get explosively angry), he just has major issues with religion. And he's trying to work through them and he's able to be okay for the most part because he does realize it's his issue.

He is seeing someone, he just doesn't want to be upset on his wedding. He's not going to explode at someone who wishes him a religious blessing but he will be upset by it (and he'll keep that internal just because that's who he is) and he was hoping to avoid being upset on OUR day. We don't want to tell people they CAN'T believe, but more to internalize that belief. Kind of like how an atheist would at a Christian wedding. (And I apologize if this offends any atheists. This is just the example he's used).

Thanks for explaining. I think we understand the situation now, but it doesn't change the basic situation. You cannot exclude religion politely, as there is no polite way to tell guests what they may not do, say, or wear. Despite what the industry will have you believe, your wedding stops being "your day" as soon as you invite other people to attend. You can have a completely private wedding. If you have no guests, no one can reference religion. If you want guests, then you're going to have to run the risk.

LitLover · July 2013

Okay. Thanks everyone. I'll take this all into account. I won't be back to this discussion though.

RebeccaB88 · July 2013

i have to agree with PP that I'm still not completely sure how the surgery experience led to violent atheism. I've had somewhere between 80 and 90 of them (truthfully we lost count), and I'm not sure I could have powered through them without my faith. PTSD is a very real possibility here, if not lingering physical affects from the surgery itself. I feel bad for this guy, but he's not doing himself or any of his family and the OP any favors by not seeking help. Being atheist is normal. Having feelings of violence about it is not.

I would just decline to attend if asked to take off my cross necklace. I've attended events with one of my best friends and his atheist meetup group and they haven't asked me to do that. Some funny looks at it maybe, but no comments.

ETA: I haven't had brain surgery. It's for another condition.

loca4pook · July 2013

Harry87 said:

LitLover said:

Thanks everyone for their posts. I feel like I may have used a poor choice of words. Religion upsets my fiance because he's spent the last seven months living in hell. His brain tumor was completely asymptomatic and was the size of a golf ball. So he went from being completely well one week to being bedridden and in constant pain the next. And then it was one infection after another all the way to another surgery needing to happen because of complications. He's not violent (believe me, I would have left if he was going to hurt people or get explosively angry), he just has major issues with religion. And he's trying to work through them and he's able to be okay for the most part because he does realize it's his issue.

He is seeing someone, he just doesn't want to be upset on his wedding. He's not going to explode at someone who wishes him a religious blessing but he will be upset by it (and he'll keep that internal just because that's who he is) and he was hoping to avoid being upset on OUR day. We don't want to tell people they CAN'T believe, but more to internalize that belief. Kind of like how an atheist would at a Christian wedding. (And I apologize if this offends any atheists. This is just the example he's used).
I get that, I really do, but there is no way you can ask people to exclude all religion out of the day without coming across as a couple of assholes. How are you really going to contact each and every person to tell them "Hey, you can't mention or wear any objects of faith on our wedding day. Kay, thanks"? Are you going to air out your FI's dirty laundry in the invitation? If anything, wouldn't that encourage some insensitive people to try to "bring him back"?

I see no way in which you can make this happen if you invite people to your wedding. Your options are to let it slide, or have a private ceremony with no one there.

I agree. This could backfire and people will make MORE of an issue of either a)dude, you definitely need therapy or b) encourage how GOD kept him ALIVE from cancer, rather than gave it to him....

Best to just have him talk to his therapist how to COPE with it, rather than AVOID it and offend most of his guests

Xstatic3333 · July 2013

OP, if you're still reading, my heart goes out to you and your FI. My best friend was diagnosed with brain cancer six years ago tomorrow (and is thankfully able to lead a semi-normal life today) and I know how awful it is to watch. I also realize you're coming from a place of trying to shield him from upset. Please know that I am not unsympathetic to that.

With the timeline you have described, I know your FI may still be on some heavy-duty medication. BFF was on a steroid during his chemo treatment that gave him a short temper and serious mood swings; things set him off then that wouldn't now. Although I agree with PPs that religion isn't something you can outwardly bring up with your guests, I hope you are able to have a wonderful wedding anyway.

I am glad your FI is working through this with his therapist. In the meantime, my only practical advice would be to screen the cards. Well meaning older relatives may give a religious card. Jewelry he'll have to politely ignore. Other than that, remind him that they mean well if they use religious language in their well-wishes.

TKzilla · July 2013

zitiqueen said:

LitLover said:

My fiance is pretty violently opposed to religion (he's been burned in the past and has also had major surgeries that make him opposed to the idea of a god) and wants to make sure that there is nothing at the wedding that will trigger him. I want him to be happy and not upset on our wedding day and I am rather ambivalent about religion so this is fine with me. Is there a polite way of asking people to refrain from giving religious words of encouragement (i.e. God has truly blessed you) or openly wearing religious symbols? We also have people from multiple religions attending so we don't want it to be a big issue.

I know OP isn't coming back, but I'd love to know how surgery turns one against religion.

And religious symbols trigger violent tendencies? So does he alter his routes everywhere so he never drives past a church? What if he's driving on the freeway and sees a cross somebody put in the median to remember a loved one who died in a horrific crash in that spot? Does he pull over and start beating the steering wheel and kicking windows out of the car?

He met God during his surgery. Turns out it really is Alanis Morrisette, like in Dogma.

TKzilla · July 2013

CMGr said:

I once wished a store clerk "Merry Christmas" as I was leaving. Her response was to make an angry face and say "I don't celebrate Christmas!" I responded, "Well, I wish you a Merry Christmas, anyway."

That happened to me a lot when I was a teenager working at Toys R Us. I always say "Happy Holidays" - not out of fear of offending someone, but to encompass both Christmas and New Years. So I wished a customer some happy damn holidays, and they shot back "NO! It's MERRY CHRISTMAS!"

I really wanted to be like "I'd prefer 'Thanks for shopping at We Be Toyz n Shit, now get the fuck out' but that'd get me fired. Now take my good tidings and BE GONE!"

The Happy Holidays v. Merry Christmas shit is annoying as fuck.

ETA: It's like wishing someone a happy birthday, then getting pissed when they tell you it's not their birthday.

misssunshine17 · July 2013

I can't stand when people demand respect for their beliefs, but don't give the same courtesy.

monkeysip · July 2013

@ Courtania

Ugh, yes that is so annoying. I'm a Christian, and Christmas has a lot of deep meaning to me, obviously, but I don't care what kind of greeting you want to give me. I will say Merry Christmas, but if you say "Happy Holidays" or even "Happy Hanukkah," I'm not going to be offended. All I care is that you were wishing me some kind of merriment... I'm not going to get my panties in a wad because you didn't say "Christmas". I'd also like it if non-believers did the same and didn't get bent out of shape for me saying "Christmas" (I haven't encountered many that do, for the record, just sayin')

monkeysip · July 2013

@ Stage

I think it's more paranoia than anything. I know we were encouraged to say "Happy holidays" when I was in retail, but I think you're right, and I think very few non-christian people actually get offended over that, and it's just management being overly cautious.

But I also am annoyed at how many other christians get upset over X-mas. X=Chi, or the first letter of Christ's name. X was a common symbol for Christ. X-mas is NOT blasphemous for crying out loud.

efmcc67 · July 2013

monkeysip said:

@ Stage

I think it's more paranoia than anything. I know we were encouraged to say "Happy holidays" when I was in retail, but I think you're right, and I think very few non-christian people actually get offended over that, and it's just management being overly cautious.

But I also am annoyed at how many other christians get upset over X-mas. X=Chi, or the first letter of Christ's name. X was a common symbol for Christ. X-mas is NOT blasphemous for crying out loud.

Thank you! I really wish people would look that up before getting angry. I've even seem the rant in published books. I guess the editor was asleep at the wheel...

Xstatic3333 · July 2013

@monkeysip that's so interesting! I didn't know that, but I've never heard people get upset about it, either.

Peledreamsofrain · July 2013

CourtaniaLynn said:

CMGr said:

I once wished a store clerk "Merry Christmas" as I was leaving. Her response was to make an angry face and say "I don't celebrate Christmas!" I responded, "Well, I wish you a Merry Christmas, anyway."

That happened to me a lot when I was a teenager working at Toys R Us. I always say "Happy Holidays" - not out of fear of offending someone, but to encompass both Christmas and New Years. So I wished a customer some happy damn holidays, and they shot back "NO! It's MERRY CHRISTMAS!"

I really wanted to be like "I'd prefer 'Thanks for shopping at We Be Toyz n Shit, now get the fuck out' but that'd get me fired. Now take my good tidings and BE GONE!"

The Happy Holidays v. Merry Christmas shit is annoying as fuck.

ETA: It's like wishing someone a happy birthday, then getting pissed when they tell you it's not their birthday.

I've worked retail for long enough that I don't wish anyone a happy anything. I honestly don't care to have random psychos be bitchy to me. So happy nothing, here's your shit, leave please.

Dreamergirl8812 · July 2013

What makes me crazy is when religious groups call Walmart and Target socialist for saying "Happy Holidays." No, sorry dumbass, it's called capitalism. Inclusiveness is not PC socialist BS, it's just more profitable than exclusivity.

TKzilla · July 2013

CMGr said:

@ Stagemanager I think the clerk was probably a Jehovah's Witness. They do not celebrate any holidays, and can be very vocal about it.

Sort of like you were vocal about forcing your MERRY CHRISTMAS on him?

phira · July 2013

I actually get very angry and irritated when people wish me a Merry Christmas. You don't KNOW I'm pissed off because I don't get outwardly offended.

But if you say, "Merry Christmas," or "Happy Easter," and the person replies saying, "I don't celebrate that holiday," please don't be rude and say, "Well, I'm STILL wishing you a merry Christmas/happy Easter ANYWAY."

It's not that we can't still have a nice day even if it's a holiday we don't celebrate. It's the assumption that everyone celebrates Christian holidays. It's okay to make the mistake, but as someone who's not Christian and has never been Christian, I struggle enough as it is to get through holiday seasons. It really feels as if I'm not a "real" American because these aren't my holidays and traditions.

southernbelle0915 · July 2013

Although I am Christian, I think "Merry Christmas" is presumptuous. Everyone does not celebrate Christmas so wishing everyone a Merry Christmas is weird.

I wouldn't freak out or get mad by any means, but I would think it was a little weird if everyone said to me "Happy Hanukkah" or "Happy Kwanza". I think if you don't know for sure what people celebrate, just tell them to have a good day, enjoy the season or whatever.

southernbelle0915 · July 2013

StageManager14 said:

southernbelle0915 said:

Although I am Christian, I think "Merry Christmas" is presumptuous. Everyone does not celebrate Christmas so wishing everyone a Merry Christmas is weird.

I wouldn't freak out or get mad by any means, but I would think it was a little weird if everyone said to me "Happy Hanukkah" or "Happy Kwanza". I think if you don't know for sure what people celebrate, just tell them to have a good day, enjoy the season or whatever.

Do you feel the same way about Independence Day or Thanksgiving? Also national holidays that are widely celebrated but that some choose not to celebrate.

Nope - just religious observances.

ETA: as far as "national holidays that are widely celebrated but some choose not to celebrate", I'm not sure I've ever had the dilemma of whether or not to wish someone a Happy Columbus Day or Happy Flag Day due to not knowing whether or not they celebrate it.

Generally, if the situation presents itself where I'd like to give someone I don't know well-wishes, I just say "have a good day", "enjoy your evening" or something similar unless I know them and can be more personal.

AddieCake · July 2013

TK is now sending me notices when people comment on this thread, and I didn't even start it! ETA: Oh, hell. I accidentally favorited it.

southernbelle0915 · July 2013

StageManager14 said:

southernbelle0915 said:

StageManager14 said:

southernbelle0915 said:

Although I am Christian, I think "Merry Christmas" is presumptuous. Everyone does not celebrate Christmas so wishing everyone a Merry Christmas is weird.

I wouldn't freak out or get mad by any means, but I would think it was a little weird if everyone said to me "Happy Hanukkah" or "Happy Kwanza". I think if you don't know for sure what people celebrate, just tell them to have a good day, enjoy the season or whatever.

Do you feel the same way about Independence Day or Thanksgiving? Also national holidays that are widely celebrated but that some choose not to celebrate.

Nope - just religious observances.

So, your assumption is that when someone wishes a Merry biggest-and-most-popular-holiday-worldwide, that they all automatically mean Merry religious stuff?

I think that's my thing. Christmas is no longer just a religious holiday, and plenty of non-Christians celebrate it.

Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure Christmas an observance of the birth of Jesus Christ and "Merry Christmas" is a reference to said holiday.

lyndsay782 · July 2013

Harry87 said:

LitLover said:

Thanks everyone for their posts. I feel like I may have used a poor choice of words. Religion upsets my fiance because he's spent the last seven months living in hell. His brain tumor was completely asymptomatic and was the size of a golf ball. So he went from being completely well one week to being bedridden and in constant pain the next. And then it was one infection after another all the way to another surgery needing to happen because of complications. He's not violent (believe me, I would have left if he was going to hurt people or get explosively angry), he just has major issues with religion. And he's trying to work through them and he's able to be okay for the most part because he does realize it's his issue.

He is seeing someone, he just doesn't want to be upset on his wedding. He's not going to explode at someone who wishes him a religious blessing but he will be upset by it (and he'll keep that internal just because that's who he is) and he was hoping to avoid being upset on OUR day. We don't want to tell people they CAN'T believe, but more to internalize that belief. Kind of like how an atheist would at a Christian wedding. (And I apologize if this offends any atheists. This is just the example he's used).
I get that, I really do, but there is no way you can ask people to exclude all religion out of the day without coming across as a couple of assholes. How are you really going to contact each and every person to tell them "Hey, you can't mention or wear any objects of faith on our wedding day. Kay, thanks"? Are you going to air out your FI's dirty laundry in the invitation? If anything, wouldn't that encourage some insensitive people to try to "bring him back"?

I see no way in which you can make this happen if you invite people to your wedding. Your options are to let it slide, or have a private ceremony with no one there.

I agree. This could backfire and people will make MORE of an issue of either a)dude, you definitely need therapy or b) encourage how GOD kept him ALIVE from cancer, rather than gave it to him....

Best to just have him talk to his therapist how to COPE with it, rather than AVOID it and offend most of his guests

^^^ I'm all for the bolded. To me it sounds less like he is an atheist and more like he is just really upset at God. Most atheists don't get that upset at something they don't believe in. However, people who did/do believe and feel like God didn't answer their prayers the way they wanted them answered do tend to get that upset at religion.

I'm not trying to stir any pots, just an observation I've made from my life experience.

I think he needs to spend more time with this therapist, and learn how to move on.

KDM323 · July 2013

CMGr said:

@ Stagemanager I think the clerk was probably a Jehovah's Witness. They do not celebrate any holidays, and can be very vocal about it.

Actually, they commemorate Christ's Death by observing it at the same time that the Jew's observe Passover and are taught that this is the only "holiday" that the Bible commands Christians to observe.

I really wish @CMGr that you would stop speaking about religions other than your own with very concrete statements when it is obvious that you are not well versed in these religions.

(And for the record, my house backs up to a Kingdom Hall....I put up a HUGE Christmas light display and it even plays MUSIC. They have never once...ever...made a comment to me about it or been rude about it in any manner)

daisey18 · July 2013

@ phira:

If I were you, I would just say, "Happy Hanukkah" in return. Since you do consider yourself Jewish, and I am guessing that you celebrated that holiday when you were a child? It's a nice way to remind people that everybody doesn't celebrate Christmas, and wish them well in return.

Personally, as a gentile kid- I never understood why Christians didn't celebrate Hanukkah as well. Jesus did! And I like the silver and blue colors more.

southernbelle0915 · July 2013

StageManager14 said:

southernbelle0915 said:

StageManager14 said:

southernbelle0915 said:

StageManager14 said:

southernbelle0915 said:

Although I am Christian, I think "Merry Christmas" is presumptuous. Everyone does not celebrate Christmas so wishing everyone a Merry Christmas is weird.

I wouldn't freak out or get mad by any means, but I would think it was a little weird if everyone said to me "Happy Hanukkah" or "Happy Kwanza". I think if you don't know for sure what people celebrate, just tell them to have a good day, enjoy the season or whatever.

Do you feel the same way about Independence Day or Thanksgiving? Also national holidays that are widely celebrated but that some choose not to celebrate.

Nope - just religious observances.

So, your assumption is that when someone wishes a Merry biggest-and-most-popular-holiday-worldwide, that they all automatically mean Merry religious stuff?

I think that's my thing. Christmas is no longer just a religious holiday, and plenty of non-Christians celebrate it.

Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure Christmas an observance of the birth of Jesus Christ and "Merry Christmas" is a reference to said holiday.

Well, it depends really. It is also a national holiday and one celebrated around the world with many symbols and customs that aren't related to Christianity. That's what I find so interesting. it is the ONLY holiday in this particular position. That's why I'm asking for those who are opposed to it. As I said, I've never encountered anyone with these opinions in real life, so I'm taking advantage of it now to pick your brains. Almost every atheist, agnostic, Pagan, etc that I know celebrates Christmas in the secular sense and wishes people a Merry Christmas, even as they observe their own religious holidays as well.

Here's the way I think about it... My issue is that wishing one a "Merry Christmas" presumes that one celebrates Christmas. Since I don't know who does and who does not celebrate Christmas I do not wish every person a merry one. I'm not a Scrooge and I don't get after people for saying "Merry Christmas", but I do think it's presumptuous. Like it or not, it's a holiday rooted in religion and I leave it out of my interactions with strangers.

I just stick to the basics - if I don't know what someone does or does not celebrate, I don't reference anything. If I want to wish them well I just say "have a good day" or "enjoy your evening" or whatever.

phira · July 2013

StageManager14 said: phira said: I actually get very angry and irritated when people wish me a Merry Christmas. You don't KNOW I'm pissed off because I don't get outwardly offended.
But if you say, "Merry Christmas," or "Happy Easter," and the person replies saying, "I don't celebrate that holiday," please don't be rude and say, "Well, I'm STILL wishing you a merry Christmas/happy Easter ANYWAY."
It's not that we can't still have a nice day even if it's a holiday we don't celebrate. It's the assumption that everyone celebrates Christian holidays. It's okay to make the mistake, but as someone who's not Christian and has never been Christian, I struggle enough as it is to get through holiday seasons. It really feels as if I'm not a "real" American because these aren't my holidays and traditions. If it helps, I never wished someone a Happy Easter at the porn store.
However, honestly I don't get this about Christmas. You get seriously pissed when someone wishes you a Merry Christmas? If they assured you first that they weren't a Christian but meant it in the commercial sense, would you be less irritated and angy? Nope, I'd be just as irritated and angry. Again, like I mentioned before, I'm not going to get outwardly irritated and angry. But I really don't like it. It upsets me and frustrates me.

Plenty of non-Christians celebrate Christmas. Plenty of non-Christians do not. And it actually drives me up a wall that it's a national holiday--I don't think it should be. I know that'll never change, and I'm not going to push for it to change, but I'm trying to explain my viewpoint.

efmcc67 · July 2013

phira said:

StageManager14 said:

phira said:

I actually get very angry and irritated when people wish me a Merry Christmas. You don't KNOW I'm pissed off because I don't get outwardly offended.

But if you say, "Merry Christmas," or "Happy Easter," and the person replies saying, "I don't celebrate that holiday," please don't be rude and say, "Well, I'm STILL wishing you a merry Christmas/happy Easter ANYWAY."

It's not that we can't still have a nice day even if it's a holiday we don't celebrate. It's the assumption that everyone celebrates Christian holidays. It's okay to make the mistake, but as someone who's not Christian and has never been Christian, I struggle enough as it is to get through holiday seasons. It really feels as if I'm not a "real" American because these aren't my holidays and traditions.

If it helps, I never wished someone a Happy Easter at the porn store.

However, honestly I don't get this about Christmas. You get seriously pissed when someone wishes you a Merry Christmas? If they assured you first that they weren't a Christian but meant it in the commercial sense, would you be less irritated and angy?

Nope, I'd be just as irritated and angry. Again, like I mentioned before, I'm not going to get outwardly irritated and angry. But I really don't like it. It upsets me and frustrates me.

Plenty of non-Christians celebrate Christmas. Plenty of non-Christians do not. And it actually drives me up a wall that it's a national holiday--I don't think it should be. I know that'll never change, and I'm not going to push for it to change, but I'm trying to explain my viewpoint.

I wonder if that's true. I work for a state university in North Carolina, a strongly religious area, and we call it "winter holiday." Yes, it coincides with Christmas, but we don't call it "Christmas."

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