Black Tie Optional?

Peledreamsofrain · July 2013

SewInLoveWithDMB said:

I think I'm reading a disconnect between having a non-fancy event and putting "Black Tie Optional" as a way of telling people not to wear jeans vs. a true formal function with "Black Tie Optional" telling guests that they can wear a tux if they choose, or a suit.

I have never attended a wedding where FI has not worn a suit, and where the above criteria stated by @PrettyGirlLost was not the case (except in daytime formal weddings - where morning suits were worn by VIPS and suits by all other guests, but with the same level of hosting. Or, a wedding at the beach that was casual, but still hosted with a sit down dinner and open bar, etc.)

I still believe at this level of event, "Black Tie Optional" means wear a suit (which we know all guests were going to do anyway) or a tux if you want to dress up a bit more (implying that other men will be in tuxes as well.)

I've never imagined "Black Tie Optional" to mean "don't wear jeans and please look nice cause we don't think you know how to dress and we just want you to play dress up for our cash bar and cake reception."

FI owns a tux - Black Tie Optional to us would mean he would have an opportunity to wear it, and would not look out of place, even though the event is formally hosted (valet, cocktail hour, 4 course seated meal, live music, open bar, etc.) His suit would always be appropriate (unless it was white tie), but otherwise he wouldn't go for the tux option unless he knew others were going to as well (even though it would be correct, but could look overdone if all other men are in suits.)

Just my opinion though.

1.) If someone is so incredibly stubborn/stupid that they wear jeans to a fancy resort wedding, they are unreachable by your 'creative vocabulary'.

2.) In your attempt to reach out and instruct said incredibly stubborn/stupid person, you come across as incredibly ignorant and gauche to the rest of your guests.

If it's your goal to look silly to 99% of your guests, then have at it. However, if your goal isn't to have people roll their eyes at your invites, then don't make up words about attire. An event is Black Tie, or it's not.

PrettyGirlLost · July 2013

SewInLoveWithDMB said:

I think I'm reading a disconnect between having a non-fancy event and putting "Black Tie Optional" as a way of telling people not to wear jeans vs. a true formal function with "Black Tie Optional" telling guests that they can wear a tux if they choose, or a suit.

I have never attended a wedding where FI has not worn a suit, and where the above criteria stated by @PrettyGirlLost was not the case (except in daytime formal weddings - where morning suits were worn by VIPS and suits by all other guests, but with the same level of hosting. Or, a wedding at the beach that was casual, but still hosted with a sit down dinner and open bar, etc.)

I still believe at this level of event, "Black Tie Optional" means wear a suit (which we know all guests were going to do anyway) or a tux if you want to dress up a bit more (implying that other men will be in tuxes as well.)

I've never imagined "Black Tie Optional" to mean "don't wear jeans and please look nice cause we don't think you know how to dress and we just want you to play dress up for our cash bar and cake reception."

FI owns a tux - Black Tie Optional to us would mean he would have an opportunity to wear it, and would not look out of place, even though the event is formally hosted (valet, cocktail hour, 4 course seated meal, live music, open bar, etc.) His suit would always be appropriate (unless it was white tie), but otherwise he wouldn't go for the tux option unless he knew others were going to as well (even though it would be correct, but could look overdone if all other men are in suits.)

Just my opinion though.

There's a disconnect because a bride should never mention attire on her invites, unless the venue has a dress code or the event is actually black tie. And an event is either formal or it is not, black tie or not. There is no such nonsense as semi-formal or black tie optional.

This comes up all the time, and I can't for the life of me understand why brides are so concerned about the issue of guest attire. Why in the hell do you care what other people are wearing? Are you Joan Rivers?

What other people wear to your wedding absolutely does not impact you at all. Period. Nothing terrible will befall you as you float down the aisle if someone is *gasp* wearing jeans to your ultra posh and upscale wedding, or your step mother showed up in a white gown- Quelle horreur! The guest in question might feel uncomfortable, but chances are they don't care. And no one else really cares either. And your wedding will go on.

If you are getting married and you are worried about what your quests might be wearing, you're doing it wrong.

NOLAbridealmost · July 2013

Peledreamsofrain said:

I've only seen BTO once, and stressed out because I didn't want to buy a long formal gown when I owned plenty of cocktail dresses. I was worried I would be underdressed.

Only to show up to a wedding where the WP was in suits and short dresses. WTF was the point of BTO then? Just to prevent people from wearing jeans?
Exactly. When it's used, it's used because people don't know wtf Black Tie is and just think it 'sounds fancy'. They couldn't be communicating ignorance more clearly than if they pointed at a giraffe and started talking about what a lovely unicorn it is.

I want this to be my new siggy.

SewInLoveWithDMB · July 2013

I am not doing this. I have only been invited to Black Tie weddings, not Black Tie Optional.

I just would not be offended by the wording. I don't care what people wear to my event, but presume everyone will show up in a suit because it is a formal event, at a formal location, with cocktail hour, 4 course sit down dinner and hosted open bar all night. If they don't, oh well.

PrettyGirlLost · July 2013

SewInLoveWithDMB said:

I am not doing this. I have only been invited to Black Tie weddings, not Black Tie Optional.

I just would not be offended by the wording. I don't care what people wear to my event, but presume everyone will show up in a suit because it is a formal event, at a formal location, with cocktail hour, 4 course sit down dinner and hosted open bar all night. If they don't, oh well.

My rant wasn't directed at you, sorry! It was a rabbit-trail that spun off of what you said, lol.

winelover123 · July 2013

I hate black tie optional. It's either black tie or it isn't - there really isn't a gray area. If it is truly black tie, write black tie. If it isn't but is fancy, use word of mouth and the invitation style (aka not picked off of the casual section of the invitation website) to convey the formality. If people are confused, they will ask.

NYCBruin · July 2013

SewInLoveWithDMB said:
I am not doing this. I have only been invited to Black Tie weddings, not Black Tie Optional.

I just would not be offended by the wording. I don't care what people wear to my event, but presume everyone will show up in a suit because it is a formal event, at a formal location, with cocktail hour, 4 course sit down dinner and hosted open bar all night. If they don't, oh well.

Right. But just because you aren't personally offended doesn't mean it's not rude or inappropriate or confusing. There are lots of rude things that don't bother me personally, but that doesn't make them any less rude.

southernbelle0915 · July 2013

winelover123 said:

I hate black tie optional. It's either black tie or it isn't - there really isn't a gray area. If it is truly black tie, write black tie. If it isn't but is fancy, use word of mouth and the invitation style (aka not picked off of the casual section of the invitation website) to convey the formality. If people are confused, they will ask.

This. And if you conveyed the message correctly (via the formality of your invitations, venue choice, etc.) that you're having a fancy event that isn't quite black tie, people who "get it" will come dressed up and people who would never have gotten the message anyway no matter what you wrote on your invitations may or may not come dressed up. Oh well. You'll still get married and they will look as silly as they are. C'est la vie.

The people who never "get it" anyway are the people you're probably trying to reach by putting this on your invitations and that's just it... they'll never get it anyway. The people who DO "get it" are the ones who will notice how insulting and silly it is and you will offend them and you will be judged for offending them. Whether nicely judged "aw, the poor thing tried" or harshly judged "ignorant fool..." it's what all of those people will be thinking.

SewInLoveWithDMB · July 2013

NYCBruin said:

I am not doing this. I have only been invited to Black Tie weddings, not Black Tie Optional.

I just would not be offended by the wording. I don't care what people wear to my event, but presume everyone will show up in a suit because it is a formal event, at a formal location, with cocktail hour, 4 course sit down dinner and hosted open bar all night. If they don't, oh well.
Right. But just because you aren't personally offended doesn't mean it's not rude or inappropriate or confusing. There are lots of rude things that don't bother me personally, but that doesn't make them any less rude.

I agree with this. But, it is a real thing.

http://www.emilypost.com/everyday-manners/your-personal-image/69-attire-chart

I generally trust Emily Post and Martha Stewart in terms of wording like this - for invitations, rsvp wording, etc. Both have mentioned on their sites that "Black Tie Optional" is a real category of dress.

Wear a tuxedo if you have one, a suit if you don't. I do agree with the posts above - invitations, time of day and style of event should get the point across without using this wording. I agree that adults don't need to be told not to wear jeans to an event, but if they do, no biggie.

And I do agree that there could be some level of confusion, and in my opinion, there shouldn't be. It just means tux if you have, suit if you don't. If you don't have a tux, you don't need to rent one.

PrettyGirlLost · July 2013

SewInLoveWithDMB said:

NYCBruin said:

I am not doing this. I have only been invited to Black Tie weddings, not Black Tie Optional.

I just would not be offended by the wording. I don't care what people wear to my event, but presume everyone will show up in a suit because it is a formal event, at a formal location, with cocktail hour, 4 course sit down dinner and hosted open bar all night. If they don't, oh well.
Right. But just because you aren't personally offended doesn't mean it's not rude or inappropriate or confusing. There are lots of rude things that don't bother me personally, but that doesn't make them any less rude.

I agree with this. But, it is a real thing.

http://www.emilypost.com/everyday-manners/your-personal-image/69-attire-chart

I generally trust Emily Post and Martha Stewart in terms of wording like this - for invitations, rsvp wording, etc. Both have mentioned on their sites that "Black Tie Optional" is a real category of dress.

Wear a tuxedo if you have one, a suit if you don't. I do agree with the posts above - invitations, time of day and style of event should get the point across without using this wording. I agree that adults don't need to be told not to wear jeans to an event, but if they do, no biggie.

And I do agree that there could be some level of confusion, and in my opinion, there shouldn't be. It just means tux if you have, suit if you don't. If you don't have a tux, you don't need to rent one.

No, it's not a real thing no matter what Martha or the Emily Post institute say. Emily is dead and the ppl that took over for her give out some pretty shitty advice at times, and both the Emily Post Institute and Martha Stewart are minions to a degree of the wedding industry. The wedding industry makes shit up all the time in order to sell things, and part of selling things is validating the horrible "It's MY day" mentality of brides.

Advocating attire instructions on invites is part of that validation.

I bet if we were to ask a fashion expert about black tie optional, they would say "WTF?" Either an event is black tie, or it is not. You always have the option to dress well or overdress, so black tie optional makes no fashion sense.

SewInLoveWithDMB · July 2013

Does Tim Gunn count as a fashion expert? (He might, he might not.)

http://books.google.com/books?id=AmbGvh9q_6YC&pg=PT166&lpg=PT166&dq=tim+gunn+black+tie+optional&source=bl&ots=kEIBvDSZtA&sig=CSyx5TODf5C2dTVO2m24QUqAMyM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GdXeUcruOfOy4AOngoGYAQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ

PrettyGirlLost · July 2013

I love Tim Gunn :-)

But unless your wedding is actually black tie, you still shouldn't write attire directives on the invitations, it would still be considered rude.

southernbelle0915 · July 2013

@SewInLoveWithDMB - what you are referencing from Emily Post and Tim Gunn are columns that a GUEST would reference if they received an invitation to such an event. Since people (ignorantly) use the term "Black tie optional", EP and TG are offering their suggestions on how one might dress for such an event.

The issue here is complete different. It's whether or not HOSTS should state "Black tie optional" on their invitations. Which they should not.

PrettyGirlLost · July 2013

southernbelle0915 said:

@SewInLoveWithDMB - what you are referencing from Emily Post and Tim Gunn are columns that a GUEST would reference if they received an invitation to such an event. Since people (ignorantly) use the term "Black tie optional", EP and TG are offering their suggestions on how one might dress for such an event.

The issue here is complete different. It's whether or not HOSTS should state "Black tie optional" on their invitations. Which they should not.

Good point. I'm not 100% convinced TG is actually condoning the use of the terms BTO etc. in the fashion industry. I agree that it seems he was trying to explain what these terms on invites mean and how a guest should dress.

SewInLoveWithDMB · July 2013

If he was not condoning it, his definition would be "This is a mis-used term and does not exist." But, he states that it is different from black tie, but it is also different from semiformal.

On this note, any wedding party that has the groomsmen or groom in tuxedos and all other men in suits is, by default, black tie optional whether or not it was printed on the invitation.

MrsH86 · July 2013

I just hope no one shows up to my wedding in a skanky dress or jean shorts.... but this is totally possible... and I am now wishing I would have been a little more specific on my invite.. LOL

PrettyGirlLost · July 2013

SewInLoveWithDMB said:

If he was not condoning it, his definition would be "This is a mis-used term and does not exist." But, he states that it is different from black tie, but it is also different from semiformal.

On this note, any wedding party that has the groomsmen or groom in tuxedos and all other men in suits is, by default, black tie optional whether or not it was printed on the invitation.

Not necessarily. He can give fashion advice for stupid nomenclature w/o agreeing with that nomenclature.

Oh Lord, I missed the semiformal info. . . I hate that term as well!

southernbelle0915 · July 2013

SewInLoveWithDMB said:

If he was not condoning it, his definition would be "This is a mis-used term and does not exist." But, he states that it is different from black tie, but it is also different from semiformal.

On this note, any wedding party that has the groomsmen or groom in tuxedos and all other men in suits is, by default, black tie optional whether or not it was printed on the invitation.

We've been talking a lot about people who "get it" and people who don't. This post makes me realize that you don't.

PrettyGirlLost · July 2013

MrsH86 said:

I just hope no one shows up to my wedding in a skanky dress or jean shorts.... but this is totally possible... and I am now wishing I would have been a little more specific on my invite.. LOL

Why do you care if they do?

And what do you mean by you wish you had been a little more specific on your invite? You wish you had used a more fancy, formal invitation so people had a clue about the formality of the wedding and how to properly dress? Or you wish you had been obnoxious and micromanaging and directly written an attire directive on your invitation?

If the latter. . . did you miss 98% of the posts in this thread enumerating why that is rude?

SewInLoveWithDMB · July 2013

southernbelle0915 said:

SewInLoveWithDMB said:

If he was not condoning it, his definition would be "This is a mis-used term and does not exist." But, he states that it is different from black tie, but it is also different from semiformal.

On this note, any wedding party that has the groomsmen or groom in tuxedos and all other men in suits is, by default, black tie optional whether or not it was printed on the invitation.

We've been talking a lot about people who "get it" and people who don't. This post makes me realize that you don't.

Funny. I felt the same way about many in this post. Oh well. C'est la vie. Happy wedding planning!

PrettyGirlLost · July 2013

SewInLoveWithDMB said:

southernbelle0915 said:

SewInLoveWithDMB said:

If he was not condoning it, his definition would be "This is a mis-used term and does not exist." But, he states that it is different from black tie, but it is also different from semiformal.

On this note, any wedding party that has the groomsmen or groom in tuxedos and all other men in suits is, by default, black tie optional whether or not it was printed on the invitation.

We've been talking a lot about people who "get it" and people who don't. This post makes me realize that you don't.

Funny. I felt the same way about many in this post. Oh well. C'est la vie. Happy wedding planning!

Lol!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/2a10bd83a4e98cacd94db60bd9b9febc/tumblr_mkusu6sVnI1qgt42uo1_500.gif

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5ab9qGrDB1qeee3yo1_500.gif

ETA: I'm just teasing Sew, I'm not actually trying to get into a catfight with her.

Peledreamsofrain · July 2013

NOLAbridealmost said:

Peledreamsofrain said:

I've only seen BTO once, and stressed out because I didn't want to buy a long formal gown when I owned plenty of cocktail dresses. I was worried I would be underdressed.

Only to show up to a wedding where the WP was in suits and short dresses. WTF was the point of BTO then? Just to prevent people from wearing jeans?
Exactly. When it's used, it's used because people don't know wtf Black Tie is and just think it 'sounds fancy'. They couldn't be communicating ignorance more clearly than if they pointed at a giraffe and started talking about what a lovely unicorn it is.

I want this to be my new siggy.

Haha, have at it! It'll make me feel famous optional.

masdumas · July 2013

So I own 2 tuxes - on our wedding invites we didn't say what the dress was, but some of my friends have asked,and I've said - if you've got it, wear it. If not, no harm. I've always been taught by my parents that its better to be over dressed than underdressed anyday.

GypsyWife_ · July 2013

So an informed wedding guest is a happy wedding guest rule? Is that a fake rule?

wrigleyville · July 2013

GypsyBridetobe said:

So an informed wedding guest is a happy wedding guest rule? Is that a fake rule?

There's a difference between "informed" and "micromanaged and treated like a child".

If an event is truly black tie and/or the facility has a dress code, it's fine to communicate that to your guests. If you simply want to tell people what's appropriate in your eyes (i.e. "no jeans"), that's not okay.

GypsyWife_ · July 2013

I've seen it on a lot of wedding blogs. And I wasn't told what to wear one time and my heels sank in the grass it was hard to walk and my shoes were muddy. I also wasn't told it was an outside ceremony.

doeydo · July 2013

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Black%20Tie%20Optional For people who haven't heard about it, BTO is indeed an actual thing. So basically, if a man wanted to wear a tuxedo he is free to or he can wear a nice suit. And a woman can wear a full length gown, cocktail dress, or dress pants and a nice shirt if dresses aren't her thing. Since your wedding is being held at a mansion, I think BTO would be fitting.

NYCBruin · July 2013

doeydo said:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Black%20Tie%20Optional For people who haven't heard about it, BTO is indeed an actual thing. So basically, if a man wanted to wear a tuxedo he is free to or he can wear a nice suit. And a woman can wear a full length gown, cocktail dress, or dress pants and a nice shirt if dresses aren't her thing. Since your wedding is being held at a mansion, I think BTO would be fitting.

Yes, because Urban Dictionary is a great source for etiquette tips.

I've heard of BTO. It doesn't mean that it's a correct designation from an etiquette standpoint.

daveANDkristen · July 2013

doeydo said:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Black%20Tie%20Optional For people who haven't heard about it, BTO is indeed an actual thing. So basically, if a man wanted to wear a tuxedo he is free to or he can wear a nice suit. And a woman can wear a full length gown, cocktail dress, or dress pants and a nice shirt if dresses aren't her thing. Since your wedding is being held at a mansion, I think BTO would be fitting.

Urban dictionary's content is provided by it's audience (like Wikipedia). It is not a "real" dictionary.

Yes, we have all heard the term BTO, but many don't believe it is polite to suggest what your guests should wear to your wedding. This would suggest that they do not know what is appropriate attire for such an event. Isn't this reason enough not to use the term? Even if 50% of your guests think it is normal and do not bat an eye at "BTO", do you really want the other 50% side-eyeing you for assuming they are unable to dress themselves? The very purpose of etiquette is to avoid hurt feelings, IMO.

wrigleyville · July 2013

Urban Dictionary is a source for etiquette the same way WebMD is a source for surgical techniques.

Black Tie Optional?

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