Two questions: head table and black tie

JustNicki · October 2013

Don't let the title scare you! I've done my research.

Hello, etiquette lovelies. Don't let the title get your hackles raised; I've done my research! I've been lurking on this board pretty much since I got engaged last December. Our wedding is still about 9 months away, but we've booked all our vendors and created the guest list (save the dates are going out in a month!). I felt too shy to open an account and participate, but the advice I've read on this board has been sound and very helpful to me in my planning process so here I am.

Don't worry, I'm not looking for anyone to hold my hand or validate rude ideas. I have two etiquette questions that are kind of unrelated so I hope it's ok that I put them in one post. Since I've been lurking (gosh that makes me sound so creepy) for a while, I know that the questions I'm about to ask can be considered hot topics. I'm not trying to create drama; I've done ample research on this board about these two topics. I just still feel that my specific questions were unanswered in previous discussions.

1. Do you think 13 is too many people for a head table?

13 includes FI and me and the wedding party + dates/spouses. The guest tables are round and seat 10. The head table could be rectangular or in some kind of U shape. From what I've read, I know that I could just have a sweetheart table and then intersperse the WP among the other tables with their friends. However, FI doesn't like the idea of a sweetheart table (and I'm not sure I do either) because we are so close with our WP and would want to sit with all of them.

2. Can I have a black tie wedding?

I would like to have a black tie wedding but I would like opinions on whether or not my event could truly be billed as black tie. Here are the main points:

-elegant mansion/ballroom.

-WP and parents of bride and groom in long dresses and tuxes

-outdoor ceremony (with backup plan for rain/ extreme heat) @ 6

-chilled refreshments served as guests arrive for ceremony

-cocktail hour w/ premium open bar (which will remain open all evening) and passed apps

-4 course dinner with choice of filet, chicken, or salmon

-tuxedo'd DJ (this is what worries me... I know a band is usually considered more formal but FI and I didn't like any of the bands in our area)

I guess I am also concerned that if I have a black tie wedding, some guests may not attend because of the financial implications. I would really love to host a true black tie event, but celebrating my marriage with family and friends is more important. I am, of course, completely against "black tie optional" so it has to be black tie or nothing. What would you ladies and gents do?

STARMOON44 · October 2013

1. I think 13 is just fine.

2. A) how real are these financial concerns? Are we talking a cousin who might be grumpy, or a substantial portion of guests who couldn't do it?

I don't mind black tie with a DJ. I think of the black tie requirements like stars in a constellation. Dim one, and you've still got a pretty good picture. Start dimming lots of elements and it doesn't look like a black tie sky anymore.

kitty8403 · October 2013

No idea on the black tie, but I am also curious about the head table thing because most of our wedding party already has SOs who presumably would like to sit with them. What's the protocol when your table seats a maximum of eight and SOs would bring the total to more like 12+?

STARMOON44 · October 2013

@kitty8403. Get a bigger table or disburse the wedding party to other tables. You could sit with husband, MOH and date, best man and date, and another couple, for example.

JustNicki · October 2013

Thanks, @STARMOON44. 13 is really not a lot compared to how big some head tables can get.

I'm not sure about how many guests would be upset by shelling out money on fancy attire. I do know that about half of FI's and my friends would probably question the idea. I'm not so concerned about the older guests (except maybe the small pocket of self proclaimed "hicks" on FI's side).

NYCMercedes · October 2013

JustNicki said:

Don't let the title scare you! I've done my research.

Hello, etiquette lovelies. Don't let the title get your hackles raised; I've done my research! I've been lurking on this board pretty much since I got engaged last December. Our wedding is still about 9 months away, but we've booked all our vendors and created the guest list (save the dates are going out in a month!). I felt too shy to open an account and participate, but the advice I've read on this board has been sound and very helpful to me in my planning process so here I am.

Don't worry, I'm not looking for anyone to hold my hand or validate rude ideas. I have two etiquette questions that are kind of unrelated so I hope it's ok that I put them in one post. Since I've been lurking (gosh that makes me sound so creepy) for a while, I know that the questions I'm about to ask can be considered hot topics. I'm not trying to create drama; I've done ample research on this board about these two topics. I just still feel that my specific questions were unanswered in previous discussions.

1. Do you think 13 is too many people for a head table?
13 includes FI and me and the wedding party + dates/spouses. The guest tables are round and seat 10. The head table could be rectangular or in some kind of U shape. From what I've read, I know that I could just have a sweetheart table and then intersperse the WP among the other tables with their friends. However, FI doesn't like the idea of a sweetheart table (and I'm not sure I do either) because we are so close with our WP and would want to sit with all of them.

2. Can I have a black tie wedding?
I would like to have a black tie wedding but I would like opinions on whether or not my event could truly be billed as black tie. Here are the main points:

-elegant mansion/ballroom.
-WP and parents of bride and groom in long dresses and tuxes
-outdoor ceremony (with backup plan for rain/ extreme heat) @ 6
-chilled refreshments served as guests arrive for ceremony
-cocktail hour w/ premium open bar (which will remain open all evening) and passed apps
-4 course dinner with choice of filet, chicken, or salmon
-tuxedo'd DJ (this is what worries me... I know a band is usually considered more formal but FI and I didn't like any of the bands in our area)

I guess I am also concerned that if I have a black tie wedding, some guests may not attend because of the financial implications. I would really love to host a true black tie event, but celebrating my marriage with family and friends is more important. I am, of course, completely against "black tie optional" so it has to be black tie or nothing. What would you ladies and gents do?

1. Sounds perfect. 2. I'm not an expert on the band / DJ thing. My husband has worn a dark suit to black tie events when his tux didn't fit. No one side eyed him as many men do this. Rules seem to be less forgiving for women, however, as those under 18 are the only ones who should be in a short dress.

doeydo · October 2013

1. 13 sounds fine.
2. A black tie wedding would be awesome. I think most women should be able to have something (a gown or dress pants or something) in their wardrobe already and if not, could always use one. As for men, they can rent a tux for a reasonable price and if they are strapped for cash they could pay for the tuxedo instead of getting you a gift (yes, gifts are never expected or necessary but I would never attend a wedding empty handed). ETA If you have a lot of people in your guest list or your VIPs that truly don't have money to spend on this kind of thing, then you might want to choose to not have a Black Tie Wedding.

ohmrs2014 · October 2013

I would love to have a black tie wedding, but the only thing that is stopping me is the tux situation. I don't want to put my guests out because of that.

Jen4948 · October 2013

13 at the head table sounds reasonable. I assume that the 13 includes the partners of wedding party members. If it doesn't, then you need a bigger head table or you need to let the wedding party members sit elsewhere.

I don't see why you can't have a black-tie wedding, although I agree with @doeydo that ifyou are inviting a significant number of people who don't understand the concept it might not be the best way to go.

artbyallie · October 2013

On the black tie situation, I vote for doing really nice engraved invitations and just not specifying 'Black Tie' on them. People will get the hint that it's really fancy without feeling obligated to rent a tux.

JustNicki · October 2013

@Jen4948 -- Yep, the 13 is including everyone's spouses and significant others. A BM is married to a GM, the OOT BM is bringing her bf, and the third BM is married. The other two groomsmen have partners and the MOH is my divorced aunt (who doesn't want to bring a guest, as of now).

@doeydo and @50ShadesofMe -- yes that's probably what's bugging me the most. I guess I just need to weigh how many people wouldn't come against my need for a full black tie affair. I think I'll try to ask around or have FMIL and my mom ask their friends. If it seems like a lot of people won't come, I'll just go with what @artbyallie suggested and leave off the "black-tie" line from the invitation.

manateehugger · October 2013

Honestly, unless black tie is relatively common (or at least not unheard of) in your crowd, I say go for the fancier wedding/venue and follow artbyallie's suggestion.

JustNicki · October 2013

PDKH said:
Honestly, unless black tie is relatively common (or at least not unheard of) in your crowd, I say go for the fancier wedding/venue and follow artbyallie's suggestion.

I have a feeling this is what I'll do. Most of my guests at least know what a proper black-tie event is, but probably very few of them frequent such events. Thanks ladies.

SP29 · October 2013

As per 1), 13 people at your head table is fine. If you want the table to feel a bit more intimate compared to the "traditional" straight table with everyone sitting beside each other in a row, consider a U (or L) shaped table towards the corner of the room (if it works for your room- likely not so much in large venue), or (my preference) a King's table.

casey8784 · October 2013

SP29 said:

As per 1), 13 people at your head table is fine. If you want the table to feel a bit more intimate compared to the "traditional" straight table with everyone sitting beside each other in a row, consider a U (or L) shaped table towards the corner of the room (if it works for your room- likely not so much in large venue), or (my preference) a King's table.

what is a king's table? i have a feeling i know what it is, just haven't heard that phrase before...

ScrabbleAndLlamas · October 2013

I had a head table like yours- 13 people. I put FI and me in the middle, our bridal party and dates on both sides of the table next to us, and two empty chairs directly across from us. I stole an idea off of Pinterest to put "Stop By" and "Stay Hi!" on the chairs. I wish I could tell you a bunch of people used those chairs, but no. They were basically unused. However, it did mean our photographer got some awesome shots of us reacting to toasts and the like, with all our bridal party and their dates accommodated!

jwc1116 · October 2013

I don't think 13 is too many for the head table and I think it's nice that you're including the significant others in the seating.

I am having a formal wedding, but it is black tie optional. I had heard the invitations will set the tone for the celebration regarding dress code (as well as time of day and location). However, I did include a 'Black Tie Optional' at the bottom of reception card that was enclosed with the invitation.

No one has mentioned the attire to me, except my mother's brothers asked her if I would prefer them in a tuxedo or dark suit. It really doesn't matter to me and anyway, they are two of the sharpest dressed men I know.

Tuxedo rentals I've seen in my location are about $150 including all the accessories, if they are not used to attending galas, operas or other formal events.

If you know the majority budget will allow, your guests might love the opportunity to get dressed up to celebrate a formal occasion. Guys kind of feel like James Bond for the night.

artbyallie · October 2013

I guess it's too late for this, @jillwentworth, but 'black tie optional' is not a real thing because it is always an 'option' to wear formalwear.

jwc1116 · October 2013

I didn't want male guests to feel like they had to wear tuxedos if they didn't own one and didn't want to rent one. I think the men at my wedding will be a mix of tuxedos and dark suits (evening wedding).

Tomandlesley · October 2013

Thank you for including your WP SO at the head table. 13 is not to many. I don't have any advice about black tie I know know nothing about it

jessicabessica · October 2013

You sound like you're fairly reasonable/easygoing about this, so I would guess you are not going to care one way or the other if everyone is in true black tie attire or not. I would plan the wedding with the formality that you want and have the invitations reflect that, as @artbyallie suggested.

I think the head table sounds fine. I have seen large head tables with people on both sides (and no one in front of the bride and groom) or L-shaped tables in the corner, although I did feel like we were sitting very far from the bride and groom with them in the corner and the dance floor in the middle of the room. You could also sit at a round table with your new H and a few members of your wedding party (+ dates). We sat at a round table with our siblings and their dates.

msuprincess04 · October 2013

1) 13 is a lot, but completely do-able. My cousin put them in a U-shape table in the center of the room so they were all together and in the middle of everything. It was great. We are doing what another posted suggested and just sitting with the MOH and her hubby, the BM and his wife, and our parents.

2) You may also want to consider how far some people are traveling. If you have a lot of people traveling, I might shy away from going true black tie. We were invited to a white tie wedding this summer and skipped it after all the travel costs, plus tux rental (with extra days due to traveling), added up.

crunchymamaof2 · October 2013

jillwentworth said:

I didn't want male guests to feel like they had to wear tuxedos if they didn't own one and didn't want to rent one. I think the men at my wedding will be a mix of tuxedos and dark suits (evening wedding).

They never have to wear tuxes. Black tie optional isn't a real thing- people always have the option to dress up. A wedding is either black tie or it's not. Other than black or white tie, attire should never be included on an invitation. The invitation itself (plus other details of the wedding) should portray how formal the wedding will be. Then you trust that adults will know how to properly dress. And if they don't? No big deal! It won't make a difference as to how your day ends :-)

jwc1116 · October 2013

Black tie does indicate the attire for men to be a black tuxedo jacket. Whereas, black tie optional indicates that a dark suit is also appropriate. Surely, I would never kick anyone out of the celebration for being underdressed. The suggestion to attire is so the guest feels comfortably dressed at that event. I don't think it's wrong to include attire on the invite or not - as this is done to not leave them guessing. I feel it's a bit more appropriate on the reception card rather than the formal invite, so the guest does not obligated- merely a gesture to etiquette.

I'd think we'd all agree Emily Post is the foremost authority on wedding etiquette (my source) - although even that organization acknowledges a change in the times.

I will definitely agree that there is no big deal at the end of the day regarding attire.

jwc1116 · October 2013

http://www.emilypost.com/everyday-manners/your-personal-image/69-attire-chart

KeptInStitches · October 2013

Sorry, Jill, but Emily Post got taken over by the wedding industry and doesn't give good advice anymore. Miss Manners is much better.

thelastdreamer · October 2013

I think it would be less awkward to do a King's Table with that many people. In a King's Table, both people sit on both sides of a long rectangular table. The Bride and Groom can either sit at one end of the table together, or in the middle of one side, leaving empty spaces instead of chairs directly across from them. Here's a picture of an example. The rest of the wedding tables will typically surround the King's Table (In this picture they are rectangular and square, but it's fine if your other tables are all round)

manateehugger · October 2013

Our caterer recommended a king's table over a head table since our wedding party plus dates was so huge. We'll be sitting next to each other on one side.

I wasn't crazy about the idea at first (FI hated a sweetheart table), but it ended up being a nice compromise and a way for us to include SO's and dates.

banana468 · October 2013

Miss Manners and Crane's are far more reputable sources for wedding invitation etiquette. Crane's is the best because their reputation depends on it. They advise that one doesn't indicate the formality of the event at all but if you feel the need to indicate black tie only, you can.

Black tie optional isn't a real thing. It's either black tie or it isn't. Your guests always have the option to dress up If it's an evening reception.

harper0813 · October 2013

thelastdreamer said:
I think it would be less awkward to do a King's Table with that many people. In a King's Table, both people sit on both sides of a long rectangular table. The Bride and Groom can either sit at one end of the table together, or in the middle of one side, leaving empty spaces instead of chairs directly across from them. Here's a picture of an example. The rest of the wedding tables will typically surround the King's Table (In this picture they are rectangular and square, but it's fine if your other tables are all round)

This is precisely what we did, and it held 22 people. It worked out really well!

PrettyGirlLost · October 2013

JustNicki said:
Don't let the title scare you! I've done my research.

Hello, etiquette lovelies. Don't let the title get your hackles raised; I've done my research! I've been lurking on this board pretty much since I got engaged last December. Our wedding is still about 9 months away, but we've booked all our vendors and created the guest list (save the dates are going out in a month!). I felt too shy to open an account and participate, but the advice I've read on this board has been sound and very helpful to me in my planning process so here I am.

Don't worry, I'm not looking for anyone to hold my hand or validate rude ideas. I have two etiquette questions that are kind of unrelated so I hope it's ok that I put them in one post. Since I've been lurking (gosh that makes me sound so creepy) for a while, I know that the questions I'm about to ask can be considered hot topics. I'm not trying to create drama; I've done ample research on this board about these two topics. I just still feel that my specific questions were unanswered in previous discussions.

1. Do you think 13 is too many people for a head table?
13 includes FI and me and the wedding party + dates/spouses. The guest tables are round and seat 10. The head table could be rectangular or in some kind of U shape. From what I've read, I know that I could just have a sweetheart table and then intersperse the WP among the other tables with their friends. However, FI doesn't like the idea of a sweetheart table (and I'm not sure I do either) because we are so close with our WP and would want to sit with all of them.

2. Can I have a black tie wedding?
I would like to have a black tie wedding but I would like opinions on whether or not my event could truly be billed as black tie. Here are the main points:

-elegant mansion/ballroom.
-WP and parents of bride and groom in long dresses and tuxes
-outdoor ceremony (with backup plan for rain/ extreme heat) @ 6
-chilled refreshments served as guests arrive for ceremony
-cocktail hour w/ premium open bar (which will remain open all evening) and passed apps
-4 course dinner with choice of filet, chicken, or salmon
-tuxedo'd DJ (this is what worries me... I know a band is usually considered more formal but FI and I didn't like any of the bands in our area)

I guess I am also concerned that if I have a black tie wedding, some guests may not attend because of the financial implications. I would really love to host a true black tie event, but celebrating my marriage with family and friends is more important. I am, of course, completely against "black tie optional" so it has to be black tie or nothing. What would you ladies and gents do?

Your wedding sounds lovely! I would use very fancy invitatations and put a few pictures of your venue on your wedding website so your guests can get an idea of the formality of your event. But I wouldn't write black tie o your invitations or website.

Your wedding sounds like it is right on the cusp of a black tie event, but I wouldn't risk intimidating your guests out of attending just for the sake of bragging rights of throwing a black tie event. Especially if black tie events are not customary for your social group.

Plan your wedding just as you described, it will still be super formal and elegant, but your guests won't be required to rent tuxes annd buy evening gowns just to attend.

FWIW, your wedding sounds like it will be very similar to mine, on the cusp of black tie yet not quite, and I plan on doing as I suggested above. However, I don't care how anyone dresses as long as they are fully clothed, lol! Not that I think you are concerned about it either.

Two questions: head table and black tie

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