Having a small wedding, then a big celebration on another day

Kerigirl9 · November 2013

Kerigirl9 said:

I don't know.... Sounds like we're taking these etiquette rules a little too seriously. When We had our parents 25th anniversary party they had a special dance, cut a lovely cake, people gave speeches.... So by the logic on this thread we should not have done this because they had already HAD their wedding? Sorry, but I think there needs to be an allowance for a little grey area here.

Celebrating a 25th anniversary is a lovely time to have a vow renewal. A few months after a JOP ceremony because the bride and/or groom didn't get all the fanfare that you see on TV... is not appropriate for a vow renewal.

So to make sure I have this straight.... If someone is throwing a party to celebrate their marriage that has happened in the recent past, everyone is fully aware that they are already married and that this is a celebration only they are not allowed to have the following (basing this on what I've seen on this thread and others). Cake cutting; First (or alone) dance; Wedding dress (there seems to be some debate about this,,, some say no, some say it depends on the style.... Who decides what's appropriate?); Speeches wishing the couple a happy life. Have I got this right? Again, just wondering where the grey area comes in as most of the posts I see here are very black and white.

AroundTheBlock · November 2013

Kerigirl9 said:

So to make sure I have this straight.... If someone is throwing a party to celebrate their marriage that has happened in the recent past, everyone is fully aware that they are already married and that this is a celebration only they are not allowed to have the following (basing this on what I've seen on this thread and others). Cake cutting; First (or alone) dance; Wedding dress (there seems to be some debate about this,,, some say no, some say it depends on the style.... Who decides what's appropriate?); Speeches wishing the couple a happy life. Have I got this right? Again, just wondering where the grey area comes in as most of the posts I see here are very black and white.

There is some debate about the cake cutting and the opening dance, too.

As for who decides what is appropriate, "Etiquette" does. But what is "etiquette"? Analytical study of etiquette falls under the general field of social anthropology, where it is defined (typically, with variations) as "the processes by which members of a society determine and manage the risks inherent in communication and interaction." Hence its details vary, and always have, from society to society. Within larger society, a "standard etiquette" usually evolves, following the processes demonstrated by the first family of the larger society; and internationally a common "international etiquette" has evolved between embassies and is demonstrated by the processes followed at ambassadorial functions.

The Knot is one of those local societies within the larger national and international society. The consensus of members of the Knot is what establishes etiquette norms on the Knot. In many cases these are the same as "standard etiquette"; and in many cases these differ from "standard etiquette". Both Knot etiquette and standard etiquette may differ also from the processes and norms by which your immediate friends and family negotiate social risks -- we can call those processes and norms "local etiquette".

At a wedding, you might wish to lean toward following standard etiquette. That is because, with extended members of two different families attending, a good probability exists that half the guests will not know the local etiquette of the other half. An even higher probability exists that more than have the guests will not be Knot regulars and know Knot etiquette. Alas, while everyone has access to the manuals that purport to teach standard etiquette -- Mary French, Debrett's, Judith Martin, the Post Institute, Amy Vanderbilt -- nowadays most people's acquaintanceship with standard etiquette is sketchy, as illustrated by the number of times one reads "I never heard of any such thing" on etiquette boards. So, if you are marrying the boy next door who comes from the same ethnic and social background as you, then local etiquette is the most appropriate etiquette to follow as it will be the best understood by everyone present. By corollary, if everyone being invited is planning their own wedding and haunting the Knot, then Knot etiquette would be the best to follow. Each person makes their own judgment about which set of etiquette rules to follow, and that is where the grey area really is.

However, standard etiquette tends to treat weddings very much like any other party and establishes very much the same rules for every party: hosts must greet and introduce their guests and provide for the guests' needs and entertainment; nobody, hosts included, may intentionally spotlight themselves or cast others into the shade; guests and hosts alike should dress according to the formality and the time of day; and so on. With respect to your particular questions, according to standard etiquette:

The host decides what sort of meal to serve, including what kind of dessert to serve. A towering cake is as appropriate as any other kind of cake. Guests are served first, hosts are served last. If any dish is particularly showcased, the hosts may ceremonially serve that dish personally, as an especially gracious touch showing their care for their guests. So you may certainly cut your cake in your role as hostess.
If dancing is offered, the hosts are responsible to "open the dance floor" by taking the first dance or the first few measures of the first dance. Guests will then know that the floor is open, and join in for the second dance or when invited by their hosts to join in.
Dress should be appropriate to the time of day and the formality of the event. A ballgown at an afternoon tea-party is in the same category as blue-jeans and a t-shirt at a formal ball.
Toasts may be given at any formal dinner. They are most properly given over the dessert course, which is properly accompanied by a sweet sparkling wine. Toasts are generally spontaneous and offered by guests. Most formally, the first toast is to the sovereign (or the republic), the second toast is to the hostess, and other toasts may be offered ad-lib. Toasts, not speeches -- even though the toast may be pedantic and boring and last far too long -- are what are offered at a social dinner; speeches are for club dinners or other public and commercial events.

kissyourself · November 2013

First off I am sorry about your situation! Unfortunately you really shouldn't have two weddings, as other people have said, however... you can still have an awesome party. I would skip a ceremony at the later celebration for obvious reasons but there is nothing wrong with have a belated reception! People who know and undersatnd your situation wont think it's and you deserve to have the reception taht you want!

We are doing something similar (for different reasons) and our reception is going to be a week after our ceremony. I am still wearing my wedding dress and having a first dance (no wedding party though). With all the ettiquette research I have done (and there has been a lot) you will find different opinions on everything but just go with what works for your situation...just please dont have a cash bar.

NYCBruin · November 2013

MariaBend25 said:

I dont think there is anything "selfish" about the poster's situation, a family member is terminally ill and there is not enough time to pull off a full-blown wedding in time. They should not have to sacrifice their mother being there or having their friends and family be there.

Regardless of opinion, it is a fact, as set by the Constitution, that Church and State are separate, and therefore a church and legal marriage are separate (one not mightier and more "real" than the other might I add).

Of course a JOP wedding is "real" but a JOP wedding is NOT a religious ceremony. If your relatives decided to become Catholic, for example, their JOP wedding would not be recognized in the church as a Sacrament and they would have to have a Catholic wedding ceremony. Conversely, having a Catholic ceremony is NOT the same as a legal wedding in the United States, unless the couple has applied for a marriage license and the priest signs the marriage certificate. Seeing how some of my friends forgot to get/bring their marriage license, the date of their marriage is when the priest signed the certificate and not the date when the priest married them.

The OP is not trying to diss people with JOP marriages, but trying to see what will work the best for their given situation. I am merely stating that legal and religious ceremonies are actually two separate things, with neither being above the other, and therefore is a potential option for the poster to utilize if her religious views allow it.

First off, actually no, the words "separation of church and state" or any variation there of are not int the constitution. Rather, the first amendment to the constitution says "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," which isn't exactly the same thing. The two are not completely separated. As PPs pointed out, religious leaders (including Catholic priests) are sanctioned by the state to perform legal weddings. And for purposes of determining freedom to marry, the church considers previous civil marriages as perfectly valid (with some exceptions).

Second, as a Catholic, I have a hard time believing that you know people who were married in the church without the legal paperwork. Not only is that contrary to what every church I've ever heard of allowing, it just doesn't make sense. Isn't it lying to consider yourself married in the eyes of the church but then tell the government that you're not married? How is that not degrading your married to deny that it exists? Why would a priest ever endorse such behavior?

Kerigirl9 · November 2013

Kerigirl9 said:

So to make sure I have this straight.... If someone is throwing a party to celebrate their marriage that has happened in the recent past, everyone is fully aware that they are already married and that this is a celebration only they are not allowed to have the following (basing this on what I've seen on this thread and others). Cake cutting; First (or alone) dance; Wedding dress (there seems to be some debate about this,,, some say no, some say it depends on the style.... Who decides what's appropriate?); Speeches wishing the couple a happy life. Have I got this right? Again, just wondering where the grey area comes in as most of the posts I see here are very black and white.

There is some debate about the cake cutting and the opening dance, too.

As for who decides what is appropriate, "Etiquette" does. But what is "etiquette"? Analytical study of etiquette falls under the general field of social anthropology, where it is defined (typically, with variations) as "the processes by which members of a society determine and manage the risks inherent in communication and interaction." Hence its details vary, and always have, from society to society. Within larger society, a "standard etiquette" usually evolves, following the processes demonstrated by the first family of the larger society; and internationally a common "international etiquette" has evolved between embassies and is demonstrated by the processes followed at ambassadorial functions.

The Knot is one of those local societies within the larger national and international society. The consensus of members of the Knot is what establishes etiquette norms on the Knot. In many cases these are the same as "standard etiquette"; and in many cases these differ from "standard etiquette". Both Knot etiquette and standard etiquette may differ also from the processes and norms by which your immediate friends and family negotiate social risks -- we can call those processes and norms "local etiquette".

At a wedding, you might wish to lean toward following standard etiquette. That is because, with extended members of two different families attending, a good probability exists that half the guests will not know the local etiquette of the other half. An even higher probability exists that more than have the guests will not be Knot regulars and know Knot etiquette. Alas, while everyone has access to the manuals that purport to teach standard etiquette -- Mary French, Debrett's, Judith Martin, the Post Institute, Amy Vanderbilt -- nowadays most people's acquaintanceship with standard etiquette is sketchy, as illustrated by the number of times one reads "I never heard of any such thing" on etiquette boards. So, if you are marrying the boy next door who comes from the same ethnic and social background as you, then local etiquette is the most appropriate etiquette to follow as it will be the best understood by everyone present. By corollary, if everyone being invited is planning their own wedding and haunting the Knot, then Knot etiquette would be the best to follow. Each person makes their own judgment about which set of etiquette rules to follow, and that is where the grey area really is.

However, standard etiquette tends to treat weddings very much like any other party and establishes very much the same rules for every party: hosts must greet and introduce their guests and provide for the guests' needs and entertainment; nobody, hosts included, may intentionally spotlight themselves or cast others into the shade; guests and hosts alike should dress according to the formality and the time of day; and so on. With respect to your particular questions, according to standard etiquette:
The host decides what sort of meal to serve, including what kind of dessert to serve. A towering cake is as appropriate as any other kind of cake. Guests are served first, hosts are served last. If any dish is particularly showcased, the hosts may ceremonially serve that dish personally, as an especially gracious touch showing their care for their guests. So you may certainly cut your cake in your role as hostess.
If dancing is offered, the hosts are responsible to "open the dance floor" by taking the first dance or the first few measures of the first dance. Guests will then know that the floor is open, and join in for the second dance or when invited by their hosts to join in.
Dress should be appropriate to the time of day and the formality of the event. A ballgown at an afternoon tea-party is in the same category as blue-jeans and a t-shirt at a formal ball.
Toasts may be given at any formal dinner. They are most properly given over the dessert course, which is properly accompanied by a sweet sparkling wine. Toasts are generally spontaneous and offered by guests. Most formally, the first toast is to the sovereign (or the republic), the second toast is to the hostess, and other toasts may be offered ad-lib. Toasts, not speeches -- even though the toast may be pedantic and boring and last far too long -- are what are offered at a social dinner; speeches are for club dinners or other public and commercial events.

Thank you so much for this unbelievable response! I truly appreciate you taking the time and I believe I have all the information I need to now decide which side of the fence I'm on with this subject. Again, my sincerest thanks.

achaney730 · November 2013

We have met with the priest who is marrying us, It will be 100% legal. I already have my wedding dress which i am not wearing to the catholic ceremony, we have the bridal party picked out, the venue paid for, but it is all for august. I talked to my bridal party, which is all my family. Everyone i have talked to is very understanding about why we are doing a religious ceremony now. My minister is going to do a blessing the day of our August wedding date. Everyone we have talked to is 100 % understanding, and gives us our blessing. When we started planning our wedding, his mother was not as sick, over the last 3 months she has taken a turn for the worse. We will keep things the way they are, I know not everyone will agree, but this is our wedding and we will do as we see fit. I know a lot of people who have said vows and then have another wedding a year later, one of my bridesmaids had a friend who got married at JOP before her fiancé deployed and a year later they had a big wedding. It is my day and i will do as i please.

arrippa · November 2013

achaney730 said:

We have met with the priest who is marrying us, It will be 100% legal. I already have my wedding dress which i am not wearing to the catholic ceremony, we have the bridal party picked out, the venue paid for, but it is all for august. I talked to my bridal party, which is all my family. Everyone i have talked to is very understanding about why we are doing a religious ceremony now. My minister is going to do a blessing the day of our August wedding date. Everyone we have talked to is 100 % understanding, and gives us our blessing. When we started planning our wedding, his mother was not as sick, over the last 3 months she has taken a turn for the worse. We will keep things the way they are, I know not everyone will agree, but this is our wedding and we will do as we see fit. I know a lot of people who have said vows and then have another wedding a year later, one of my bridesmaids had a friend who got married at JOP before her fiancé deployed and a year later they had a big wedding. It is my day and i will do as i please.

Well, aren't you just a peach.

KeptInStitches · November 2013

If you're just going to go ahead with your ideas, why ask for advice?

Having a small wedding, then a big celebration on another day

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