XP: including the woman's first name on the invitation?

Simky906 · December 2013

I was talking to a friend last night and mentioned that we will be sending out our StDs after the new year. She told me that she hopes we won't address them "the old fashioned way" as she finds that sexist. I've always seen invites to married couples addressed Mr. and Mrs. John Doe but I certainly don't want to offend anyone. How can we address then to include the man and woman's name? Would Mrs. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe be acceptable? Or is there a better way to phrase this?

lovesclimbing · December 2013

You could do Mr. John and Mrs. Jane Doe. I believe it's incorrect etiquette-wise but honestly, if she wants it differently than "correct," I would do it how she wants.

jlazgrl · December 2013

Mr. and Mrs. John and Jane Doe maybe? Or you could just put Mr. and Mrs. Doe. It wont have her first name, but it wont have his either, so she cant't say its sexist.

HisGirlFriday13 · December 2013

Your options are:

Mr. and Mrs. John Doe (old-fashioned way)

Mr. John Doe and Ms. Jane Doe (new-fashioned way that indicates that they are married AND she took his name, but doesn't want to be 'Mrs.')

Mr. John Doe and Ms. Jane Smith (they're married but she kept her name)

TBH, I don't mind people asking to be addressed a certain way, but saying, "I hope you won't address us the old-fashioned way as that's sexist" isn't helpful. If you want to be addressed a certain way EFFING TELL PEOPLE.

Simky906 · December 2013

Yeah, telling me her preferred method of address would certainly have been helpful. I suppose I could have asked her but the way she said it definitely took me by surprise. I think in this scenario I'll use Mr. John Doe and Ms. Jane Doe.

RebeccaB88 · December 2013

I agree that the old-fashioned, etiquette appropriate way is terribly sexist, and we really do need to find a more modern appropriate way to address people. But, honestly, you can't expect someone to know something unless you tell them. Maybe that was her way of telling you, but it was pretty passive-aggressive and kinda rude. I also think it's generational. My 70 year old mom prefers Mrs. John Doe, but I would truthfully be offended to be addressed that way (even though I know it's proper, I still think it's wrong). I'm a person and I have my own name. But, again, unless I tell people that, they won't have any way of knowing.

RebeccaB88 · December 2013

I agree that the old-fashioned, etiquette appropriate way is terribly sexist, and we really do need to find a more modern appropriate way to address people. But, honestly, you can't expect someone to know something unless you tell them. Maybe that was her way of telling you, but it was pretty passive-aggressive and kinda rude. I also think it's generational. My 70 year old mom prefers Mrs. John Doe, but I would truthfully be offended to be addressed that way (even though I know it's proper, I still think it's wrong). I'm a person and I have my own name. But, again, unless I tell people that, they won't have any way of knowing.

banana468 · December 2013

RebeccaB88 said:

I agree that the old-fashioned, etiquette appropriate way is terribly sexist, and we really do need to find a more modern appropriate way to address people. But, honestly, you can't expect someone to know something unless you tell them. Maybe that was her way of telling you, but it was pretty passive-aggressive and kinda rude. I also think it's generational. My 70 year old mom prefers Mrs. John Doe, but I would truthfully be offended to be addressed that way (even though I know it's proper, I still think it's wrong). I'm a person and I have my own name. But, again, unless I tell people that, they won't have any way of knowing.

You may not intend for your post to sound as if it's factual and speaking for all modern women but it does and some of us are traditionalists who DO want to be addressed as Mr. and Mrs. John Smith.

I certainly have my own first name but I happily took my husband's last name when we married and I wouldn't have it any other way.

I do agree that people should be addressed the way they want to be addressed but please don't presume that every modern feminist finds this to be outdated or rude.

RebeccaB88 · December 2013

effing double post

RebeccaB88 · December 2013

banana468 said:

RebeccaB88 said:

I agree that the old-fashioned, etiquette appropriate way is terribly sexist, and we really do need to find a more modern appropriate way to address people. But, honestly, you can't expect someone to know something unless you tell them. Maybe that was her way of telling you, but it was pretty passive-aggressive and kinda rude. I also think it's generational. My 70 year old mom prefers Mrs. John Doe, but I would truthfully be offended to be addressed that way (even though I know it's proper, I still think it's wrong). I'm a person and I have my own name. But, again, unless I tell people that, they won't have any way of knowing.

You may not intend for your post to sound as if it's factual and speaking for all modern women but it does and some of us are traditionalists who DO want to be addressed as Mr. and Mrs. John Smith.

I certainly have my own first name but I happily took my husband's last name when we married and I wouldn't have it any other way.

I do agree that people should be addressed the way they want to be addressed but please don't presume that every modern feminist finds this to be outdated or rude.

I do think it's outdated and sexist, but I acknowledge that not every woman feels the same way I do. I am speaking of first names only here, not last names (completely different ballgame). We are essentially saying the same thing, that no one should assume either way and neither way is wrong. I freely admit that I don't understand why a woman would prefer to be called by her husband's name simply because she married him, but I acknowledge that some women choose that. If one day you suddenly announce that even though your legal name is Banana, you now prefer to be called Kumquat because that's your husband's name, then that's your right and I would respect that, whether I understand where you're coming from or not. I do think it's in a large part generational, because I know far more older ladies who prefer to be called Mrs. John Smith than I do younger ladies. I do understand what you're saying, Banana, but I also think your choice might be in the minority - which isn't wrong in any way at all as long as it was your choice and you're happy with it.

chibiyui · December 2013

I don't like the old way ( totally sexist), if someone wants to be addressed that way thats fine, but I'd prefer that "Mr. John Doe & Mrs. Jane Doe" became the standard.

Of course, the big take-a-way is, learn how people prefer to be addressed and do that.

HisGirlFriday13 · December 2013

I agree with @chibiyui: the big takeaway is to learn how people prefer to be addressed and use it, but also to tell people how you want to be addressed so they have a fair chance to get it right.

Simky906 · December 2013

I agree with @chibiyui as well; this is something I didn't really think about so in the long run it's probably a good thing my friend brought this up. (Though doing so in a more helpful manner would have been nice!) This is definitely something I will be more cognizant of going forward.

phira · December 2013

We're doing M. First Last and M. First Last (where M. = title) for all of our invitations as a default. For some people, like grandparents and more traditional family members, we'll do the whole Mr. and Mrs. John Smith (I know my widowed grandmother still prefers Mrs. John Smith).

We'll order the names depending on who we're inviting. So when we invite my friend and her boyfriend, it'll be Ms. Jane Smith and Mr. John Doe. When we invite my brother and his girlfriend, it'll be Mr. John Doe and Ms. Jane Smith.

I think it's true that there's no one-size-fits-all way to address invitations, so the best method is to figure out a neutral default and deviate when appropriate.

And honestly, just ask people. I get the feeling that people have this weird aversion to asking for addresses, or asking people how they'd prefer to be addressed, like you have to SURPRISE everyone with your wedding invitations. Just ask. The invitation I received to my friend's wedding last year was addressed to Mr. and Mrs. John Smith, even though my then-boyfriend and I were not married and I had no intention of taking his last name anyway.

KPBM89 · December 2013

We're old fashioned so we're doing the Mr. and Mrs. John Doe.

A friend of mine did hers as Mr. John Doe and Mrs. Jane Doe. Her parents did the addressing so I'm not sure if it was their idea or hers.

Bruins63 · December 2013

Apparently I am way in the dark about the whole etiquette thing...I pretty much do everything "modern" and not old fashioned so I didn't put Mr. or Mrs. on any of them. I put John & Jane Doe- even on my grandparents.

JCbride2015 · December 2013

Sigh. I still feel so conflicted about even whether to take Fi's last name, much less be addressed as Mrs. John Smith. Part of me thinks it's really romantic and traditional. And part of me feels every feminist bone in my body screaming.

JellyBean52513 · December 2013

JCBride2014 said:

Sigh. I still feel so conflicted about even whether to take Fi's last name, much less be addressed as Mrs. John Smith. Part of me thinks it's really romantic and traditional. And part of me feels every feminist bone in my body screaming.

To the bolded.....why? Isn't feminism about defending equality for women? When I think of "equality" in terms of marriage and last names, I'd think it was more equal to share the same last name, like being on the same team. To keep your own last name is more of a "separate but equal' concept to me. I promise I don't mean to come across as being judgmental towards you (or towards anyone who feels the same way you do). I'm just curious as to why someone would want to enter into a marriage, a union, a partnership and not be joined uniformly. Why does marriage appeal to you if you are so intent to maintain your sense of individuality and your identity as a single person? I'm genuinely curious.

phira · December 2013

JellyBean52513 said:

JCBride2014 said:

Sigh. I still feel so conflicted about even whether to take Fi's last name, much less be addressed as Mrs. John Smith. Part of me thinks it's really romantic and traditional. And part of me feels every feminist bone in my body screaming.

To the bolded.....why? Isn't feminism about defending equality for women? When I think of "equality" in terms of marriage and last names, I'd think it was more equal to share the same last name, like being on the same team. To keep your own last name is more of a "separate but equal' concept to me. I promise I don't mean to come across as being judgmental towards you (or towards anyone who feels the same way you do). I'm just curious as to why someone would want to enter into a marriage, a union, a partnership and not be joined uniformly. Why does marriage appeal to you if you are so intent to maintain your sense of individuality and your identity as a single person? I'm genuinely curious.

It would feel like you were sharing a last name if it weren't for the fact that last names are patrilineal in many cultures, including American culture. My fiance and I wouldn't be sharing a last name. We'd be sharing HIS last name. We wouldn't be sharing MY last name, or coming up with a new last name together. If I saw 1/3rd of couples making up a last name together, and then half of the rest of hetero couples take the woman's name and the other half take the man's name, then I'd say you had some merit in your post. But since, in hetero couples, almost EVERY time people share a last name, it's the husband's last name, I call bullshit on the idea that it's about equality.

And I know that you don't mean to say anything inflammatory, but what you basically are saying is that women who choose to keep the names they are born with when they marry a man are doing something inherently anti-marriage/unity when the man who is also keeping his name is somehow NOT doing something anti-marriage/unity.

Seriously. If he wants to share a last name, he can take mine, and it's 100% unrelated to the fact that the two of us together are becoming a family where we're both committed to each other.

OnceUponSnow · December 2013

I would be extremely offended to see ''Mr and Mrs John Doe''. I have a name, thank you very much, and I don't lose my personality the moment I'm getting married to the man I love. And while it's tradition to put the man's name first, I think it would be equally silly to make an exception for me since I have a higher education level than him and therefore, rank us accordingly (as etiquette says you should). I would find this offensive for my fiancé to be the only man in my family with his name following mine.

I think a safe way to compromise would be to add both first names, then Doe's last name if you want to keep a traditional feel to your invitations. I know couples are a social unit, but most people I know would not like to feel like they've lost their personality to the social unit.

phira · December 2013

OnceUponSnow said:

I would be extremely offended to see ''Mr and Mrs John Doe''. I have a name, thank you very much, and I don't lose my personality the moment I'm getting married to the man I love. And while it's tradition to put the man's name first, I think it would be equally silly to make an exception for me since I have a higher education level than him and therefore, rank us accordingly (as etiquette says you should). I would find this offensive for my fiancé to be the only man in my family with his name following mine.

I think a safe way to compromise would be to add both first names, then Doe's last name if you want to keep a traditional feel to your invitations. I know couples are a social unit, but most people I know would not like to feel like they've lost their personality to the social unit.

Yeah, we're addressing my future brother- and sister-in-laws' invitation as Dr. Jane Doe and Mr. John Doe.

JCbride2015 · December 2013

JellyBean52513 said:

JCBride2014 said:

Sigh. I still feel so conflicted about even whether to take Fi's last name, much less be addressed as Mrs. John Smith. Part of me thinks it's really romantic and traditional. And part of me feels every feminist bone in my body screaming.

To the bolded.....why? Isn't feminism about defending equality for women? When I think of "equality" in terms of marriage and last names, I'd think it was more equal to share the same last name, like being on the same team. To keep your own last name is more of a "separate but equal' concept to me. I promise I don't mean to come across as being judgmental towards you (or towards anyone who feels the same way you do). I'm just curious as to why someone would want to enter into a marriage, a union, a partnership and not be joined uniformly. Why does marriage appeal to you if you are so intent to maintain your sense of individuality and your identity as a single person? I'm genuinely curious.

Being addressed as Mrs. John Smith instead of Mrs. Jane Smith reminds me of the old coverture laws, in which the wife never had her own legal identity (no property, no contracts, no marital rape protection etc). I know not everybody would jump to this same association, but it's the omission of the wife's own first name that bothers me about this setup, and the way the wife is literally "covered" by her husband's name. Although I understand the tradition of it: there's something sweet about being addressed the way couples have been addressed before you for hundreds of years. So, to each their own.

But I think what you're really getting at is taking the last name. And I think you're right to the extent that sharing the same last name is a nice way (although not the only way) to manifest that you're "on the same team." But again, the wife taking her new husband's last name is a tradition kept from times that were extremely unequal for women (and let's be real, times are still unequal for women). So I don't think taking the husband's last name makes the wife "equal" to him in any sort of way. But as I said, I'm torn in a lot of ways because I like the idea of the whole new family (me, Fi, and future children) all having the same last name. But we should examine why we default to the husband's name for the new family. Why not the wife's name? Or heck, make up a brand new name?

As to your bolded, I don't really get this. The marriage makes you joined uniformly, not whatever name you wind up with after marriage. Somebody who takes her husband's name isn't any more joined than someone who doesn't. And I think it's normal and healthy to want to maintain some individuality. You don't morph into a single organism when you get married.

Sorry for the long post, and I totally understand you weren't going after me personally. Obviously, I have ALL THE FEELS about name-changing.

JCbride2015 · December 2013

I should have refreshed my page sooner because I could have just said, "What @phira said." Right on.

misshart00 · December 2013

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I enjoy being mrs. John Doe.

HisGirlFriday13 · December 2013

It may not be the majority opinion, @misshart00, but I'm with you.

chibiyui · December 2013

missax said:

banana468 said:

RebeccaB88 said:

I agree that the old-fashioned, etiquette appropriate way is terribly sexist, and we really do need to find a more modern appropriate way to address people. But, honestly, you can't expect someone to know something unless you tell them. Maybe that was her way of telling you, but it was pretty passive-aggressive and kinda rude. I also think it's generational. My 70 year old mom prefers Mrs. John Doe, but I would truthfully be offended to be addressed that way (even though I know it's proper, I still think it's wrong). I'm a person and I have my own name. But, again, unless I tell people that, they won't have any way of knowing.

You may not intend for your post to sound as if it's factual and speaking for all modern women but it does and some of us are traditionalists who DO want to be addressed as Mr. and Mrs. John Smith.

I certainly have my own first name but I happily took my husband's last name when we married and I wouldn't have it any other way.

I do agree that people should be addressed the way they want to be addressed but please don't presume that every modern feminist finds this to be outdated or rude.

I completely agree! I addressed my invites to Mr. and Mrs. John Doe unless the couple wasn't married or if the women didn't change her name. I think it's a bit much to get angry by words on an envelope that is just going to be thrown in the trash anyway.

Shortly after my sister took a new professor position and moved to Texas, she and her husband got a letter from her universty addressed to Dr. And Mrs. Last name for like a meet and greet.

My sister is the doctor.

Yes they are words on an envelope, but they are also symbolic of an indiviuals identity. If someone wants to identify as Mrs. Husbands name, thats cool but some who wants to be identified as Mrs. Her first name his last name should be awarded the same respect.

lyndausvi · December 2013

I added DH's name to my last name. So I have 2 last names. I have ZERO problem getting invites with Mr and Mrs Hisfirst HisLast. It doesn't bother me in the least. Fact is in the 5 years I've been married we have only gotten a few envelopes even addressed that way. IME, unless you are in your late 20's-early 30's and invited to wedding once a week because everyone you know is getting married it's I find it's rare to even get a formal invite to addressed like that. Because of it's infrequencies it's not a battle worth I'm whiling to fighting. I'm just speaking for myself, not every woman in the plant.

My very feminist cousin isn't bother by it either. Which I found strange as she didn't even take her husband's name. She said the same thing I did, saying it's not common anymore and those who do address that way are not doing it out of malice. It is indeed the proper way to address an envelope. She went on to say that they get just as many envelopes address Mr and Mrs HerLastName. HA. Her husband doesn't get upset either as he knows its not done in malice.

Oddly, even though I don't mind a joint invite coming to me as Mr and Mrs Hisname. I would side-eye and envelope address to just Mrs Hisfirst Hislast. While technically correct I think it's odd. Happy to say that has never happened.

For my wedding we used the traditional Mr and Mrs unless we knew a preference otherwise (which was not many). For widows we addressed them Mrs or Ms HerFirstname Lastname. I had 1 RSVP come back in large letters and underlined saying MRS JOHN SMITH. Well okay then, she prefers to be Mrs her husband's name. NBD. The table card was duly noted.

huskypuppy14 · December 2013

lyndausvi said:

I added DH's name to my last name. So I have 2 last names. I have ZERO problem getting invites with Mr and Mrs Hisfirst HisLast. It doesn't bother me in the least. Fact is in the 5 years I've been married we have only gotten a few envelopes even addressed that way. IME, unless you are in your late 20's-early 30's and invited to wedding once a week because everyone you know is getting married it's I find it's rare to even get a formal invite to addressed like that. Because of it's infrequencies it's not a battle worth I'm whiling to fighting. I'm just speaking for myself, not every woman in the plant.

My very feminist cousin isn't bother by it either. Which I found strange as she didn't even take her husband's name. She said the same thing I did, saying it's not common anymore and those who address that was are not doing it out of malice. It is indeed the proper way to address an envelope. She went on to say that they get just as many envelopes address Mr and Mrs HerLastName. HA. Her husband doesn't get upset either as he knows its not done in malice.

Oddly, even though I don't mind a joint invite coming to me as Mr and Mrs Hisname. I would side-eye and envelope address to just Mrs Hisfirst Hislast. While technically correct I think it's odd. Happy to say that has never happened.

For my wedding we used the traditional Mr and Mrs unless we knew a preference otherwise (which was not many). For widows we addressed them Mrs or Ms HerFirstname Lastname. I had 1 RSVP come back in large letters and underlined saying MRS JOHN SMITH. Well okay then, she prefers to me Mrs her husband's name. NBD. The table card was duly noted.

I agree with everything you've said here! I am keeping my name when I get married, but I would have no problem with Mr. and Mrs. Joe Shmoe. As long as an invitation addressed solely to me had the correct name, I think it's NBD. I think most women (or the women I know) prefer Mrs. Her First Last as opposed to Mrs. Husband first last if the invitation is just for her. Since you changed it on your one guest who wanted otherwise, that's all you can do.

PrettyGirlLost · December 2013

HisGirlFriday13 said:
Your options are:

Mr. and Mrs. John Doe (old-fashioned way)

Mr. John Doe and Ms. Jane Doe (new-fashioned way that indicates that they are married AND she took his name, but doesn't want to be 'Mrs.')

Mr. John Doe and Ms. Jane Smith (they're married but she kept her name)

TBH, I don't mind people asking to be addressed a certain way, but saying, "I hope you won't address us the old-fashioned way as that's sexist" isn't helpful. If you want to be addressed a certain way EFFING TELL PEOPLE.

This doesn't make sense to me. . . Why get married and take your husband's last name if you don't want to be titled Mrs?

JellyBean52513 · December 2013

Schatzi's explanation with symbols makes a lot of sense; a mutual last name simply symbolizes a marriage, but the absence of one doesn't invalidate that marriage or everything it stands for.

FTR, my ex-FI and I were going to both hyphenate. Now, if my SO and I get married, I couldn't be more excited to take his last name simply because I want to. I also told him that I plan to make my maiden name become my middle name, and the middle name of any kids I/we have would have that as their middle name, too. He loves the idea. MY personal philosophy towards taking your H's last name isn't necessarily the same as anybody else's, and nobody's really wrong or right in their approach to it. I just had my own idea about it that I felt strongly about, and I wanted to know where other people were coming from. Different strokes for different folks

huskypuppy14 · December 2013

PrettyGirlLost said:

Your options are:

Mr. and Mrs. John Doe (old-fashioned way)

Mr. John Doe and Ms. Jane Doe (new-fashioned way that indicates that they are married AND she took his name, but doesn't want to be 'Mrs.')

Mr. John Doe and Ms. Jane Smith (they're married but she kept her name)

TBH, I don't mind people asking to be addressed a certain way, but saying, "I hope you won't address us the old-fashioned way as that's sexist" isn't helpful. If you want to be addressed a certain way EFFING TELL PEOPLE.

This doesn't make sense to me. . . Why get married and take your husband's last name if you don't want to be titled Mrs?

Well, maybe they wanted their family to all have the same last name, but doesn't feel it's fair that a man's title doesn't change at marriage, but a woman's does. I personally think they should get rid of Mrs. and Miss, and all women are Ms. and all men are Mr. Being a feminist, this is much more equal.

XP: including the woman's first name on the invitation?

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