XP: Caught off guard (may turn into religious conversation or get tense)

hlvonb · December 2013

HisGirlFriday13 said:

I agree with @PDKH: She's confused. She's not sure what she believes, and she's damn well not clear on what her religion teaches.

@HisGirlFriday13

I think I am going to have agree. Especially with the bolded. She may honestly believe the whole it has to be on your wedding night but she doesn't know what our religion teaches.

hellohkb · December 2013

Goodness..I don't know how I would respond to that! I would probably just kinda laugh and keep eating or something. Although the first comment in this thread was hilarious, I'll have to use that if this awkward subject comes up.

hlvonb · December 2013

hellokellybean said:

Goodness..I don't know how I would respond to that! I would probably just kinda laugh and keep eating or something. Although the first comment in this thread was hilarious, I'll have to use that if this awkward subject comes up.

@hellokellybean

Yeah I thought that was funny too!

blabla89 · December 2013

I've heard wedding toast jokes about making it "official-official" but I can't believe this is a real thing.

winelover123 · December 2013

I'd just look at her strangely. And say "No......."

Also, Henry VIII never divorced any of his wives - his marriages were annulled.

HisGirlFriday13 · December 2013

His marriage to Anne of Cleves was annulled. But he couldn't get the annulment for Katherine of Aragon, so he divorced her, founded his own church, then announced he had had their marriage annulled.

ei34 · December 2013

I love that I'm a practicing Catholic and I learn new things about my religion on these boards all the time (the church says this, the church says that...who knew?? I don't remember any of it from Pre-Cana oh well...)

To the OP: I wouldn't have been caught off guard, since weddings and marriage were already being talked about. And I probably would've responded with an "oh that's nice", which is usually my response when someone says something they seem sure of but I think is BS.

NavyBlue143 · December 2013

I love that this conversation turned into talk about Henry VIIIs wives. My husband claims I have a problem, all the books I have on them.

HisGirlFriday13 · December 2013

@NavyBlue143: You and me both! I have entire shelves dedicated JUST to Tudor books.

winelover123 · December 2013

It's my understanding that he attempted to get an annulment through the Catholic church, they took their sweet time responding, so he broke off from the Catholic Church, declared himself head of the Church of England and announced (or had Cranmer rule on the matter) that his marriage to Catherine of Aragon invalid, or annulled, due to her marriage to his brother.

I love that so many people love Tudor England. It's a fascinating period.

hlvonb · December 2013

lalalaurita said:

I've heard wedding toast jokes about making it "official-official" but I can't believe this is a real thing.

@lalalaurita

Same here. I think this was a good part of the reason I was caught off guard.

CLI242009 · December 2013

I love how the thread title said that this conversation might get tense and IMO it hasn't. Just very educational and entertaining

I am not sure which religion or if it's true but I heard of a religion that when the marriage was consummated and to show that the bride was pure that the parents (not sure whose) or an elder stayed outside of the room to make sure the deed was done. Once it was they take the sheets with the virgin blood on it and either hang it out the window for all to see in the community or it was just briefly shown. I can't remember where the heck I heard this from but I just remember thinking how I was happy not to be part of that religion because that is no one's business!

hlvonb · December 2013

CLI242009 said:

I love how the thread title said that this conversation might get tense and IMO it hasn't. Just very educational and entertaining

I am not sure which religion or if it's true but I heard of a religion that when the marriage was consummated and to show that the bride was pure that the parents (not sure whose) or an elder stayed outside of the room to make sure the deed was done. Once it was they take the sheets with the virgin blood on it and either hang it out the window for all to see in the community or it was just briefly shown. I can't remember where the heck I heard this from but I just remember thinking how I was happy not to be part of that religion because that is no one's business!

@CLI242009

I agree that is hasn't AND I am thrilled that is hasn't but I saw the potential for it depending on the number of different ways this could go (especially since I knew religion would probably be brought up at some point)

I heard that too but I don't remember either. Maybe @HisGirlFriday13 knows lol

HisGirlFriday13 · December 2013

Try all of them -- Judaism, Islam, early Christianity. The Abrahamic religions share so much in our origin stories, it stands to reason we would share this, too.

It used to be the case that all bridal couples had to "prove" the bride's virginity and the consummating act via a bloody bed sheet -- sometimes it was displayed for everyone to see, sometimes just for the families to see. Sometimes the bride got to put it away and keep it, either for proof or sentimental value or possibly insurance.

Really, really glad we've gotten away from that aspect, thanks.

Viczaesar · December 2013

HisGirlFriday13 said:

Try all of them -- Judaism, Islam, early Christianity. The Abrahamic religions share so much in our origin stories, it stands to reason we would share this, too.

It used to be the case that all bridal couples had to "prove" the bride's virginity and the consummating act via a bloody bed sheet -- sometimes it was displayed for everyone to see, sometimes just for the families to see. Sometimes the bride got to put it away and keep it, either for proof or sentimental value or possibly insurance.

Really, really glad we've gotten away from that aspect, thanks.

I was always fascinated by the stories of how women faked that blood when they weren't actually virgins.

CLI242009 · December 2013

Viczaesar said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

Try all of them -- Judaism, Islam, early Christianity. The Abrahamic religions share so much in our origin stories, it stands to reason we would share this, too.

It used to be the case that all bridal couples had to "prove" the bride's virginity and the consummating act via a bloody bed sheet -- sometimes it was displayed for everyone to see, sometimes just for the families to see. Sometimes the bride got to put it away and keep it, either for proof or sentimental value or possibly insurance.

Really, really glad we've gotten away from that aspect, thanks.

I was always fascinated by the stories of how women faked that blood when they weren't actually virgins.

I never heard about that. Although I do wonder what happens (some cultures still practice this) or what happened back then when you didn't bleed. I don't know if it was a common thing back in the day but there's all sorts of things that could break a girls hymen now a days. Horse back riding, riding a bike, off roading, extreme sports. So it's common now that girls do not bleed during their first time. Would be curious to see what happened back in the day when this happened.

Hopefully I made sense >.>

monkeysip · December 2013

HisGirlFriday13 said:

I think this is a case of having heard a little of something that is true, but not having heard it all.

In the Catholic Church, your marriage MUST be consummated to be considered valid. If you don't consummate your marriage, either spouse can seek an annulment on the grounds of lack of consummation.* But the church says nothing about WHEN the marriage must be consummated -- only that it must be to be considered valid.

*Fun historical fact: The question of consummation is what Henry VIII's nullity suit to Catherine of Aragon hinged on. He claimed she had had intercourse with his brother, Arthur, while the two were married, thus creating a relationship of consanguinity that would make his marriage to her sacramentally invalid. She claimed she and Arthur never consummated their marriage.

And, as is so often the case with Great Harry, he picked and chose the parts of canonical law that he wanted to follow. The allegation of consanguinity (the belief that intercourse creates a blood tie) against Catherine and Arthur (his wife and his brother) making his marriage invalid should also have applied to his relationship with Anne Boleyn, whose older sister, Mary, he had also had relations with.

To answer your question, though, I would have said, "Well, that's half-true, but you've got some of the substantial facts wrong," and then I would have corrected her.

Actually, that's not true about the Catholic Church. Nowhere in canon law does it say that you must consummate to make it valid. Mary and Joseph never consummated, but still a perfectly valid marriage. Other couples in Church history have chosen a "Josephite" marriage as it has been termed. The validity does not depend upon consummation, merely form and consent.

HOWEVER, the difference is that a non-consummated marriage can be dissolved with the petrine privilege, whereas a consummated marriage cannot be. But again, that doesn't mean non-consummated marriages are all invalid.

On a personal note, H and I were virgins on our wedding night, and it just wasn't going to happen. I couldn't prepare for it mentally because I was so distracted by the day and all the excitement. We went to sleep, and the next morning we had a maaggiiccaall time

I definitely don't regret waiting until the morning after.

HisGirlFriday13 · December 2013

monkeysip said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

I think this is a case of having heard a little of something that is true, but not having heard it all.

In the Catholic Church, your marriage MUST be consummated to be considered valid. If you don't consummate your marriage, either spouse can seek an annulment on the grounds of lack of consummation.* But the church says nothing about WHEN the marriage must be consummated -- only that it must be to be considered valid.

*Fun historical fact: The question of consummation is what Henry VIII's nullity suit to Catherine of Aragon hinged on. He claimed she had had intercourse with his brother, Arthur, while the two were married, thus creating a relationship of consanguinity that would make his marriage to her sacramentally invalid. She claimed she and Arthur never consummated their marriage.

And, as is so often the case with Great Harry, he picked and chose the parts of canonical law that he wanted to follow. The allegation of consanguinity (the belief that intercourse creates a blood tie) against Catherine and Arthur (his wife and his brother) making his marriage invalid should also have applied to his relationship with Anne Boleyn, whose older sister, Mary, he had also had relations with.

To answer your question, though, I would have said, "Well, that's half-true, but you've got some of the substantial facts wrong," and then I would have corrected her.

Actually, that's not true about the Catholic Church. Nowhere in canon law does it say that you must consummate to make it valid. Mary and Joseph never consummated, but still a perfectly valid marriage. Other couples in Church history have chosen a "Josephite" marriage as it has been termed. The validity does not depend upon consummation, merely form and consent.

HOWEVER, the difference is that a non-consummated marriage can be dissolved with the petrine privilege, whereas a consummated marriage cannot be. But again, that doesn't mean non-consummated marriages are all invalid.

On a personal note, H and I were virgins on our wedding night, and it just wasn't going to happen. I couldn't prepare for it mentally because I was so distracted by the day and all the excitement. We went to sleep, and the next morning we had a maaggiiccaall time I definitely don't regret waiting until the morning after.

Well, our priest told us during pre-Cana that it had to be consummated to be valid, so that's what I'm basing my statement on. He said that, if our marriage weren't consummated, it wouldn't be considered valid in the eyes of the church, so....that's what I've got.

monkeysip · December 2013

I think that's a common misconception. Again, there's nothing in canon law or the catechism saying such.

Good source to look at: http://www.cuf.org/FileDownloads/marrvalid.pdf

monkeysip · December 2013

Can. 1061 §1. A valid marriage between the baptized is called ratum tantum if it has not been consummated; it is called ratum et consummatum if the spouseshave performed between themselves in a human fashion a conjugal act which is suitable in itself for the procreation of offspring, to which marriage is orderedby its nature and by which the spouses become one flesh.

There's a different name for consummated and non-consummated, but they're both still presumed valid unless proven otherwise.

lovesclimbing · December 2013

CLI242009 said:

Viczaesar said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

Try all of them -- Judaism, Islam, early Christianity. The Abrahamic religions share so much in our origin stories, it stands to reason we would share this, too.

It used to be the case that all bridal couples had to "prove" the bride's virginity and the consummating act via a bloody bed sheet -- sometimes it was displayed for everyone to see, sometimes just for the families to see. Sometimes the bride got to put it away and keep it, either for proof or sentimental value or possibly insurance.

Really, really glad we've gotten away from that aspect, thanks.

I was always fascinated by the stories of how women faked that blood when they weren't actually virgins.

I never heard about that. Although I do wonder what happens (some cultures still practice this) or what happened back then when you didn't bleed. I don't know if it was a common thing back in the day but there's all sorts of things that could break a girls hymen now a days. Horse back riding, riding a bike, off roading, extreme sports. So it's common now that girls do not bleed during their first time. Would be curious to see what happened back in the day when this happened.

Hopefully I made sense >.>

From what I've read, it was definitely less common for women to break their hymens before getting married simply because they did not participate in the rough activities women do nowadays.

Also, it is rare, but some women are born without a hymen.

I am glad we've done away with that. It's so incredibly sexist!

CLI242009 · December 2013

lovesclimbing said:

CLI242009 said:

Viczaesar said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

Try all of them -- Judaism, Islam, early Christianity. The Abrahamic religions share so much in our origin stories, it stands to reason we would share this, too.

It used to be the case that all bridal couples had to "prove" the bride's virginity and the consummating act via a bloody bed sheet -- sometimes it was displayed for everyone to see, sometimes just for the families to see. Sometimes the bride got to put it away and keep it, either for proof or sentimental value or possibly insurance.

Really, really glad we've gotten away from that aspect, thanks.

I was always fascinated by the stories of how women faked that blood when they weren't actually virgins.

I never heard about that. Although I do wonder what happens (some cultures still practice this) or what happened back then when you didn't bleed. I don't know if it was a common thing back in the day but there's all sorts of things that could break a girls hymen now a days. Horse back riding, riding a bike, off roading, extreme sports. So it's common now that girls do not bleed during their first time. Would be curious to see what happened back in the day when this happened.

Hopefully I made sense >.>

From what I've read, it was definitely less common for women to break their hymens before getting married simply because they did not participate in the rough activities women do nowadays.

Also, it is rare, but some women are born without a hymen.

I am glad we've done away with that. It's so incredibly sexist!

I have heard about that too. I am also very happy about that.

monkeysip - That is awesome! I'm kind of considered, depending on who you ask, weird/rare for only having one sexual partner in my life - which is my soon to be husband (51 DAYS O.O!!).

So it's nice to know I'm not alone in the world. I don't mean any offense to others, just saying it's nice to find someone else with the same thing when you always thought you were alone and being picked on about it.

monkeysip · December 2013

CLI242009 said:

lovesclimbing said:

CLI242009 said:

Viczaesar said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

Try all of them -- Judaism, Islam, early Christianity. The Abrahamic religions share so much in our origin stories, it stands to reason we would share this, too.

It used to be the case that all bridal couples had to "prove" the bride's virginity and the consummating act via a bloody bed sheet -- sometimes it was displayed for everyone to see, sometimes just for the families to see. Sometimes the bride got to put it away and keep it, either for proof or sentimental value or possibly insurance.

Really, really glad we've gotten away from that aspect, thanks.

I was always fascinated by the stories of how women faked that blood when they weren't actually virgins.

I never heard about that. Although I do wonder what happens (some cultures still practice this) or what happened back then when you didn't bleed. I don't know if it was a common thing back in the day but there's all sorts of things that could break a girls hymen now a days. Horse back riding, riding a bike, off roading, extreme sports. So it's common now that girls do not bleed during their first time. Would be curious to see what happened back in the day when this happened.

Hopefully I made sense >.>

From what I've read, it was definitely less common for women to break their hymens before getting married simply because they did not participate in the rough activities women do nowadays.

Also, it is rare, but some women are born without a hymen.

I am glad we've done away with that. It's so incredibly sexist!

I have heard about that too. I am also very happy about that.

monkeysip - That is awesome! I'm kind of considered, depending on who you ask, weird/rare for only having one sexual partner in my life - which is my soon to be husband (51 DAYS O.O!!).

So it's nice to know I'm not alone in the world. I don't mean any offense to others, just saying it's nice to find someone else with the same thing when you always thought you were alone and being picked on about it.

Yeah, I mean I'm definitely not judging anyone else for how many sexual partners they have or have not had or whether they waited for marriage or not, but we don't regret waiting. We think our sex together is pretty amazing, and even if it's not, we have nothing to compare it to. We're not missing out on anything

CLI242009 · December 2013

monkeysip said:

CLI242009 said:

lovesclimbing said:

CLI242009 said:

Viczaesar said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

Try all of them -- Judaism, Islam, early Christianity. The Abrahamic religions share so much in our origin stories, it stands to reason we would share this, too.

It used to be the case that all bridal couples had to "prove" the bride's virginity and the consummating act via a bloody bed sheet -- sometimes it was displayed for everyone to see, sometimes just for the families to see. Sometimes the bride got to put it away and keep it, either for proof or sentimental value or possibly insurance.

Really, really glad we've gotten away from that aspect, thanks.

I was always fascinated by the stories of how women faked that blood when they weren't actually virgins.

I never heard about that. Although I do wonder what happens (some cultures still practice this) or what happened back then when you didn't bleed. I don't know if it was a common thing back in the day but there's all sorts of things that could break a girls hymen now a days. Horse back riding, riding a bike, off roading, extreme sports. So it's common now that girls do not bleed during their first time. Would be curious to see what happened back in the day when this happened.

Hopefully I made sense >.>

From what I've read, it was definitely less common for women to break their hymens before getting married simply because they did not participate in the rough activities women do nowadays.

Also, it is rare, but some women are born without a hymen.

I am glad we've done away with that. It's so incredibly sexist!

I have heard about that too. I am also very happy about that.

monkeysip - That is awesome! I'm kind of considered, depending on who you ask, weird/rare for only having one sexual partner in my life - which is my soon to be husband (51 DAYS O.O!!).

So it's nice to know I'm not alone in the world. I don't mean any offense to others, just saying it's nice to find someone else with the same thing when you always thought you were alone and being picked on about it.

Yeah, I mean I'm definitely not judging anyone else for how many sexual partners they have or have not had or whether they waited for marriage or not, but we don't regret waiting. We think our sex together is pretty amazing, and even if it's not, we have nothing to compare it to. We're not missing out on anything

Totally agree with you!!! I can't imagine our sex life being anymore..just gaaahhh lol I just can't think of any words but yeah. I also think it's the emotional connection. FI and I were each others' firsts as well. We love this. Some of our friends and co workers are just like..."HOW did you guys luck out?!" hahaha

I have some gal pals who think I need to experience a one night stand (no joke, they literally said this to me and were shocked that I was not okay with it.) before I decided to stick with my FI.

I am not trying to sound like I'm judging. Just when this was brought up by my gal pals and I thought about putting myself in that situation, I was just not okay with it at all. The thought of someone I don't know and/or love being intimate with me just makes me really uncomfortable. They thought I was weird for feeling like this *shrugs* To each their own.

XP: Caught off guard (may turn into religious conversation or get tense)

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