I think FI's priest just suggested we have a PPD

Lily9911 · December 2013

alisonmarie658 said:

Lily9911 said:

tammym1001 said:

So long story short: we were supposed to get married in FI's church, but he didn't submit certain paperwork that they needed and now it's too late for us to do all the stuff they need us to do before the wedding. We've already booked and put deposits down on all our other vendors so we didn't want to change the date and lose all that money.

So FI's priest called me today and told me that we should go ahead and have the celebration with our family that we have planned and then once all the requirements for the church are done we can have our actual marriage performed in the church later with just us because he thinks it's important that our marriage ceremony is performed in the church.

I realize it would actually be a reverse PPD because we would be having a celebration and then getting married later, but I'm not interested in doing this. I can't believe he even suggested it.

It's only a true reverse PPD if pancakes are involved.

Rules is rules!

Ugh...... I am so getting pancakes tomorrow morning. I'd get them tonight but I have fancy dinner plans.

lyndausvi · December 2013

Am I the only one who doesn't think the priest is suggesting a PPD?

The priest only cares about you being married by the Catholic Church. Getting married itself does not mean you are married in the church's eyes. You have to get married in the church. It just so happens in the US the state recognized a religious ceremony as a legal one. There are many countries that do not. For example, Prince Albert and Charlene had to have a legal ceremony AND a religious one as Monaco doesn't recognize a religious ceremony legal. The Catholic church doesn't recognize the legal one as religious. So you have to have two.

So back to you, what it sounds like he is suggesting is a convalidation. Now sure some of these could be considered as PPD, but to me it's all about intent. I do not consider a couple going to a chapel with a few family members to have convalidation ceremony as a PPD. However, if you are going around boohooing on how your courthouse wedding wasn't real and you want a "real" wedding and had a convalidation with all the bells and whistles I would side-eye you.

HisGirlFriday13 · December 2013

I'm with both @monkeysip and @lyndausvi.

It was totally on the FI to get this done right, and the fact that he wanted an annulment suggests he's very serious about his faith, and that needs to be respected.

But I also think the priest was offering a convalidation, having the church recognise the marriage after it has taken place and all the paperwork is in place. I don't think he was suggesting a PPD. I think he was suggesting get married, legally, and then get the marriage recognised by the Church later.

tammym1001 · December 2013

monkeysip said:

I understand the frustration, but how important is it to your FI to continue practicing his faith?

Just be aware that IF you marry outside the Church, then your FI is outside of communion with the Church and can no longer receive the sacraments. If he cares about his faith... that's kind of a big deal.

This is why you really shouldn't even be planning your wedding (as in putting deposits down) until annulment paperwork is done. The Church takes this very seriously.

A convalidation may be possible, but I always think planned convalidations really cheapen it. A convalidation is supposed to be for someone who fell away from the Church and later regretted it and wanted to rejoin the faith. You shouldn't plan to marry to outside the Church and then just rely on getting a convalidation later. Some parishes won't even do convalidations for this reason.

My point is your FI just needs to make sure to really think about if he wants to continue practicing the faith or not. If it were me, I'd do anything it took to do my wedding properly in the Church... and no, I DON'T mean having a PPD. I would reschedule my whole wedding for a date when it could be done properly.

But if it's not important to your FI, then why did he even go through the trouble of an annulment in the first place? The fact that he went through that trouble tells me that getting married properly in his faith is important to him.

He actually hasn't sent in the annulment paperwork yet because when he took it to the priest he told him it was too late. Now he's reconsidering whether he even wants to go through the process at all because he found out that he has to go tell strangers what went wrong in his marriage and he thinks that should be private and he isn't real thrilled with the process. He knows he won't be able to take the sacrement so whatever he decides to do is really up to him at this point.

I started planning based on the priest telling me that we would be fine as long as FI had the paperwork to him by a certain date. That was my fault, but I assumed that he knew what he was talking about and at the time I had no idea what a church annulment actually involved.

Lily9911 · December 2013

tammym1001 said:

monkeysip said:

I understand the frustration, but how important is it to your FI to continue practicing his faith?

Just be aware that IF you marry outside the Church, then your FI is outside of communion with the Church and can no longer receive the sacraments. If he cares about his faith... that's kind of a big deal.

This is why you really shouldn't even be planning your wedding (as in putting deposits down) until annulment paperwork is done. The Church takes this very seriously.

A convalidation may be possible, but I always think planned convalidations really cheapen it. A convalidation is supposed to be for someone who fell away from the Church and later regretted it and wanted to rejoin the faith. You shouldn't plan to marry to outside the Church and then just rely on getting a convalidation later. Some parishes won't even do convalidations for this reason.

My point is your FI just needs to make sure to really think about if he wants to continue practicing the faith or not. If it were me, I'd do anything it took to do my wedding properly in the Church... and no, I DON'T mean having a PPD. I would reschedule my whole wedding for a date when it could be done properly.

But if it's not important to your FI, then why did he even go through the trouble of an annulment in the first place? The fact that he went through that trouble tells me that getting married properly in his faith is important to him.

He actually hasn't sent in the annulment paperwork yet because when he took it to the priest he told him it was too late. Now he's reconsidering whether he even wants to go through the process at all because he found out that he has to go tell strangers what went wrong in his marriage and he thinks that should be private and he isn't real thrilled with the process. He knows he won't be able to take the sacrement so whatever he decides to do is really up to him at this point.

I started planning based on the priest telling me that we would be fine as long as FI had the paperwork to him by a certain date. That was my fault, but I assumed that he knew what he was talking about and at the time I had no idea what a church annulment actually involved.

Is your FI still technically married then? I don't know a thing about annulments.

monkeysip · December 2013

@ Lily

In the eyes of the Church, yes, but legally, I'm assuming he already got a divorce a long time ago.

tammym1001 · December 2013

Yes legally he was divorced 10 years ago, but according to the church he is still married. Obviously this is a subject I don't know a whole lot about and I was counting on him to handle it since it's his church and his annulment. I can't really fill out the paperwork for him so this was really on him and it didn't get handled. Like I said before, it's not a big deal to me. I will have someone else marry us. If it was that important to him to be in good standing with his church then he should have taken care of it. This post was really just that I thought the priest was suggesting we have a fake wedding with our families and get married in the church later.

monkeysip · December 2013

tammym1001 said:

monkeysip said:

I understand the frustration, but how important is it to your FI to continue practicing his faith?

Just be aware that IF you marry outside the Church, then your FI is outside of communion with the Church and can no longer receive the sacraments. If he cares about his faith... that's kind of a big deal.

This is why you really shouldn't even be planning your wedding (as in putting deposits down) until annulment paperwork is done. The Church takes this very seriously.

A convalidation may be possible, but I always think planned convalidations really cheapen it. A convalidation is supposed to be for someone who fell away from the Church and later regretted it and wanted to rejoin the faith. You shouldn't plan to marry to outside the Church and then just rely on getting a convalidation later. Some parishes won't even do convalidations for this reason.

My point is your FI just needs to make sure to really think about if he wants to continue practicing the faith or not. If it were me, I'd do anything it took to do my wedding properly in the Church... and no, I DON'T mean having a PPD. I would reschedule my whole wedding for a date when it could be done properly.

But if it's not important to your FI, then why did he even go through the trouble of an annulment in the first place? The fact that he went through that trouble tells me that getting married properly in his faith is important to him.

He actually hasn't sent in the annulment paperwork yet because when he took it to the priest he told him it was too late. Now he's reconsidering whether he even wants to go through the process at all because he found out that he has to go tell strangers what went wrong in his marriage and he thinks that should be private and he isn't real thrilled with the process. He knows he won't be able to take the sacrement so whatever he decides to do is really up to him at this point.

I started planning based on the priest telling me that we would be fine as long as FI had the paperwork to him by a certain date. That was my fault, but I assumed that he knew what he was talking about and at the time I had no idea what a church annulment actually involved.

Annulments can be an awful process (I know a couple people who have went through them), so I definitely understand why that would be so upsetting for your FI. But it's still an important process to show whether the marriage was valid in the first place or not, and therefore, whether your FI is free to marry or not.

Priests really shouldn't even let you hold a date with the Church until the process is over, especially since there's always a chance that the tribunal will come back and say that the marriage WAS valid, and he ISN'T free to marry. Blame goes to your priest for that part.

If it's not important to your FI to continue practicing his faith, then that's completely his choice, and I hope you have a nice wedding either way.

tammym1001 · December 2013

@monkeysip - that was the other thing. The priest went ahead and scheduled us for the church for the day of the wedding so that's also why I thought everything was ok. I had no idea at the time how involved the process was and clearly neither did my FI. We both talked to the priest together and he acted like it was no big deal and we turn in the paperwork by a certain date, he would send it in, and the annulment would be done. That turned out not to be the case.

Lily9911 · December 2013

This is why I didn't get married in a church, way too many rules. But then again DH and I are no longer Catholic.

We upset both our parents with that decision but they quickly got over it.

chkmeowt · December 2013

He can still practice as a Catholic, but he just won't be able to receive Communion. My parent's have done this for over 30 years, because my mom refused to let my dad get an annulment with his first marriage even though he started the process because she refused to let him say his children (my brothers and sister) with his first wife weren't important. So my grandma still thinks they are living in sin (!) and my sister and I are bastards. Isn't that nice... :-)

But yeah...this is one of the many reasons why I've chosen not to stay Catholic myself after being raised in the church.

getaclue44 · December 2013

My brother just completed the annulment process and he started in May. I was a witness for it and had to write a statement for him. It just got approved a few weeks ago. It is a long rigorous process and if he isn't sure, he shouldn't spend the time on it.

gm5 · January 2014

My daughter is engaged to someone who was married before and he is going through the annulment process now - which is still in the works and has been in process for almost a year now (we are Catholic, he is not). They can't book the church until the annulment process goes through - which means they can't book anything. This was explained to them at the beginning of the process. Her faith is extremly important to her which means (because he loves her), it became important to him. The Priest they choose to marry them suggested the same thing to my daughter as your FI's priest suggested to you. It sounds like your FI isn't overly concerned with getting married in the church or you two would have discussed what this means, and you would understand the process a little better. Being Catholic is more then getting married in the church and calling it a day. You and your FI should get married it the manner that fits you both.

Lily9911 · January 2014

Very important update:

I did have pancakes this morning with real Vermont maple syrup and they were gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood.

GrrArgh · January 2014

i hate you all... i want pancakes so badly right now >_<

GrrArgh · January 2014

better yet

CrazyCatLady3 · January 2014

debmonn said:

He can still practice as a Catholic, but he just won't be able to receive Communion. My parent's have done this for over 30 years, because my mom refused to let my dad get an annulment with his first marriage even though he started the process because she refused to let him say his children (my brothers and sister) with his first wife weren't important. So my grandma still thinks they are living in sin (!) and my sister and I are bastards. Isn't that nice... :-)

But yeah...this is one of the many reasons why I've chosen not to stay Catholic myself after being raised in the church.

I'm not Catholic but I'm pretty sure that they don't in any way look down on children that resulted from an annulled marriage.

GrrArgh · January 2014

Although an annulment is thus a declaration that "the marriage never existed", the Church recognizes that the relationship was a putative marriage, which gives rise to "natural obligations". In canon law, children conceived or born of either a valid or a putative marriage* are considered legitimate, and illegitimate children are legitimized by a putative marriage of their parents, as by a valid marriage.

*A putative marriage is an apparently valid marriage, entered into in good faith on the part of at least one of the partners, but that is legally invalid due to a technical impediment.

indianaalum · January 2014

Lily9911 said:

tammym1001 So what you're saying is that you wont be "legally" married on the day you are going to have your wedding. You will be legally married at a later date?

And all of this is because the priest screwed up?

This doesn't sound right at all.

MY GUESS is that you can still be "legally" married on that day as long as it is not in the church, but that the "church" won't recognize it as a legal marriage until something is performed in the church which now longer cannot occur..correct?

If I am understanding correctly, that isn't a PPD since there is a difference between a "state" and "church" definition of a "legal" wedding.

I guess my big question is this. Which is more important?

1) Having a marriage recognized by a church

2) or by the state?

If it is 1, change the date

If it is 2, keep the date as you are still will be legally married despite the church snafu

If you believe having a blessing within the church is important but don't want to change the date, you CAN do that later without it changing your anniversary date, IMO.

You will STILL be legally married the day of the reception since you have to file for a marriage license through the state. You will just have to find a new officient.

indianaalum · January 2014

tammym1001 said:

misshart00 said:

If it was your fault that the paperwork wasn't completed, then I would say you have to suck it up and figure it out. But since it's the priest's fault, I would be ticked. I have no advice but I'm sorry you were just informed of this.

It's really both of their faults. I'm giving myself a pass on this one because I have no idea the rules and regulations of his church and I just assumed that he did and it was all taken care of. It's very frustrating, but we were going to come up with a back up plan and just find someone to marry us at our reception venue instead. I just couldn't believe that his priest suggested that be fake and we get married for real later. Before I came to TK I didn't even know that people did PPD's, but apparently it's more common that I think if the priest thinks it's ok. LOL

If I am understanding correctly, the priest probably didn't mean that at all. Is this a "catholic" priest?

If so, I think he is suggesting you just keep your regular own wedding plans (with a new officient) but that you get the marriage "blessed" by the Catholic church. It doesn't necessarily change the date you were LEGALLY married at all since the church isn't the one who really declares you "legally" wed, the state does

hope this makes sense.

kelliem251 · January 2014

We have a friend going through the same thing. Her husband was previously married and they will be getting married in her, catholic, church. The annullment paperwork takes 8-12 months to be processed and reviewed. They advised that she plan her day at least 12-14 months after the paperwork was submitted.

indianaalum · January 2014

lyndausvi said:

Am I the only one who doesn't think the priest is suggesting a PPD?

The priest only cares about you being married by the Catholic Church. Getting married itself does not mean you are married in the church's eyes. You have to get married in the church. It just so happens in the US the state recognized a religious ceremony as a legal one. There are many countries that do not. For example, Prince Albert and Charlene had to have a legal ceremony AND a religious one as Monaco doesn't recognize a religious ceremony legal. The Catholic church doesn't recognize the legal one as religious. So you have to have two.

So back to you, what it sounds like he is suggesting is a convalidation. Now sure some of these could be considered as PPD, but to me it's all about intent. I do not consider a couple going to a chapel with a few family members to have convalidation ceremony as a PPD. However, if you are going around boohooing on how your courthouse wedding wasn't real and you want a "real" wedding and had a convalidation with all the bells and whistles I would side-eye you.

I don't. my post said I didn't think he was suggesting that at all, unless I misunderstood. I think he was just saying "get married now legally, and then get the church's blessing later" which is allowed

indianaalum · January 2014

CrazyCatLady3 said:

debmonn said:

He can still practice as a Catholic, but he just won't be able to receive Communion. My parent's have done this for over 30 years, because my mom refused to let my dad get an annulment with his first marriage even though he started the process because she refused to let him say his children (my brothers and sister) with his first wife weren't important. So my grandma still thinks they are living in sin (!) and my sister and I are bastards. Isn't that nice... :-)

But yeah...this is one of the many reasons why I've chosen not to stay Catholic myself after being raised in the church.

I'm not Catholic but I'm pretty sure that they don't in any way look down on children that resulted from an annulled marriage.

I interpreted that differently. an annulment of a marriage basically says it was a "mistake" or wasn't "a real marriage". If it results in children, some can argue that it would be an insult to say the marriage and what it stood for didn't "exist". I was actually (falsely, maybe?) under the impression you couldn't annul a marriage if children existed for that reason.

monkeysip · January 2014

indianaalum said:

CrazyCatLady3 said:

debmonn said:

He can still practice as a Catholic, but he just won't be able to receive Communion. My parent's have done this for over 30 years, because my mom refused to let my dad get an annulment with his first marriage even though he started the process because she refused to let him say his children (my brothers and sister) with his first wife weren't important. So my grandma still thinks they are living in sin (!) and my sister and I are bastards. Isn't that nice... :-)

But yeah...this is one of the many reasons why I've chosen not to stay Catholic myself after being raised in the church.

I'm not Catholic but I'm pretty sure that they don't in any way look down on children that resulted from an annulled marriage.

I interpreted that differently. an annulment of a marriage basically says it was a "mistake" or wasn't "a real marriage". If it results in children, some can argue that it would be an insult to say the marriage and what it stood for didn't "exist". I was actually (falsely, maybe?) under the impression you couldn't annul a marriage if children existed for that reason.

No, since the children were conceived under what was presumed to be a valid marriage, the children are perfectly legitimate.

Annulments ARE allowed after having children, but they in no way affect the status of the children or their legitimacy.

mrsbanany · January 2014

My FI's sister's husband came over on a fiance visa and the church told them it would be impossible to get all the paperwork and do the pre-cana within the 90 days they had to get married but they pushed REALLY hard and payed A LOT extra and they were able to do it. Also, he wasn't Catholic but it was super important to her that they get married in the church so this is pretty similar to what I've read. If your FI really wants it done, it can get done.

Edit: Spelling is hard

I think FI's priest just suggested we have a PPD

Re: I think FI's priest just suggested we have a PPD

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