Major vent...

hollycarole92 · January 2014

So my fiancé and I are paying almost exclusively for our entire wedding ourselves, and he is going absolutely ballistic and making this day about how little money he can spend rather than having the best day of our lives. Firstly, it bothers me we're having to pay for 99% of it because we're both 21-year old full time students and full time employees and so his family said they would help us out with a lot of it...up until we actually got engaged and they changed their minds. I'm estranged from my family and haven't seen them in years, so them pitching in is out of the question.
Secondly, certain members of the bridal party are already bitching about us not spending enough money on things like venue, alcohol, food, etc. Sorry I'm not buying enough for you to get incredibly trashed and then stuff your face until you throw up on a flower arrangement.
I have had to give up every single one of my dreams for my wedding in every single area and my fiancé still wants me to lower my standards even more. At this point, why even have a wedding if we're going to half-ass it so much? If I'm going to look back and wish it had been different? Sure, I love him enough to get married tomorrow, but I don't think love is a good excuse for giving up your dreams. We could always wait until we have the money for our dream wedding, but he doesn't want to wait. And anytime I try to rearrange the budget (for example, spend less on a dress so I can get a better photographer, or spend less on the honeymoon to spend more on flowers and food) he says I'm being dumb.

Swazzle · January 2014

Well first and foremost, nobody is responsible for paying for your wedding except for you and your FI. Yes, it sucks that your FILs said they would help you out and now they are unable to but that's life.

The two of you should sit down and figure out a budget that you're both comfortable with. It sounds like you're at one extreme and he is at the other. You both need to compromise.

JCbride2015 · January 2014

hollycarole92 said:

So my fiancé and I are paying almost exclusively for our entire wedding ourselves, and he is going absolutely ballistic and making this day about how little money he can spend rather than having the best day of our lives. Firstly, it bothers me we're having to pay for 99% of it because we're both 21-year old full time students and full time employees and so his family said they would help us out with a lot of it...up until we actually got engaged and they changed their minds. I'm estranged from my family and haven't seen them in years, so them pitching in is out of the question. Secondly, certain members of the bridal party are already bitching about us not spending enough money on things like venue, alcohol, food, etc. Sorry I'm not buying enough for you to get incredibly trashed and then stuff your face until you throw up on a flower arrangement. I have had to give up every single one of my dreams for my wedding in every single area and my fiancé still wants me to lower my standards even more. At this point, why even have a wedding if we're going to half-ass it so much? If I'm going to look back and wish it had been different? Sure, I love him enough to get married tomorrow, but I don't think love is a good excuse for giving up your dreams. We could always wait until we have the money for our dream wedding, but he doesn't want to wait. And anytime I try to rearrange the budget (for example, spend less on a dress so I can get a better photographer, or spend less on the honeymoon to spend more on flowers and food) he says I'm being dumb.

Whoa. First off: get it out of your head right now that anybody but you and Fi should be paying for your wedding. Just nope. You are not entitled to anything.

I know this is a vent-- but you sound incredibly whiny. How are you simultaneously complaining that A) you don't want to host alcohol and a lot of food because your friends are irresponsible children who can't have nice things, but

you want a big fancy wedding and Fi/ his parents aren't giving that to you? Those two things don't coexist. Either you want to host a small, dry wedding and you're annoyed your friends are complaining, or you want to host a big blowout wedding and you're annoyed Fi wants a small wedding. You can't complain about both problems simultaneously.

I think you want the big wedding and you're telling us your friends complaints to say, "Hey look, everybody else wants me to have this big wedding too!"

You don't sound mature enough to get married. Seriously. And that's fine, you're 21. Why are you getting married now, besides "he doesn't want to wait?"

I've been with Fi since I was 15. I will be 27 by the time we get married. We are saving up for the wedding ourselves. We're having a big blowout luxury wedding, with our own money, because we waited until we could afford the wedding we want.

If we had gotten married at 21, our budget would have been about $3k to $5k, because that's what we could have afforded then, with our own money. We would have probably done brunch or afternoon cake and punch. Totally acceptable wedding? Yes. But not what we wanted... SO WE WAITED and saved like responsible adults.

Jessa617 · January 2014

hollycarole92 said:

So my fiancé and I are paying almost exclusively for our entire wedding ourselves, and he is going absolutely ballistic and making this day about how little money he can spend rather than having the best day of our lives. Firstly, it bothers me we're having to pay for 99% of it because we're both 21-year old full time students and full time employees and so his family said they would help us out with a lot of it...up until we actually got engaged and they changed their minds. I'm estranged from my family and haven't seen them in years, so them pitching in is out of the question. Secondly, certain members of the bridal party are already bitching about us not spending enough money on things like venue, alcohol, food, etc. Sorry I'm not buying enough for you to get incredibly trashed and then stuff your face until you throw up on a flower arrangement. I have had to give up every single one of my dreams for my wedding in every single area and my fiancé still wants me to lower my standards even more. At this point, why even have a wedding if we're going to half-ass it so much? If I'm going to look back and wish it had been different? Sure, I love him enough to get married tomorrow, but I don't think love is a good excuse for giving up your dreams. We could always wait until we have the money for our dream wedding, but he doesn't want to wait. And anytime I try to rearrange the budget (for example, spend less on a dress so I can get a better photographer, or spend less on the honeymoon to spend more on flowers and food) he says I'm being dumb.

Something tells me you're trolling here because there are so many things wrong with what you have posted.

Firstly, it is nobody's responsibility or obligation to pay for YOUR wedding except for you and your FI. If you can't afford the wedding of your dreams, then wait.

Secondly if you're not willing to "give up your dreams" of a princess fairy tale wedding for love...then you are not ready for marriage because unfortunately marriage is about love and spending your life with someone you love...not the wedding.

Thirdly, focus your budget on the reception. Think about what areas are important to you, is important to have a top notch really expensive photographer? There are lots of great photographers out there that are reasonably priced.

Do you have a wedding date set? If not, you shouldn't even have a bridal party picked yet. Check out the etiquette boards on how to properly host your guests at a reception.

hollycarole92 · January 2014

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we shouldn't have to pay for our own wedding. But I also don't think that someone should say they're going to do something that's so significant to another person's life and a month later change their mind.

And yes, I am whining, that's the point. With the bridal party (and yes, we do have a date), it's more like, I'm already upset because I'm not getting the intimate yet lavish affair I wanted, so don't make it worse by making complaints I'm already fully aware of.

And he doesn't want to wait because he says he "loves me too much to wait until we're 30 to have the wedding of our dreams and then kids." My response is that when you get married has no bearing on how much you love a person, and I can love him just as much and wait to get what I want. I think I'm being the responsible adult by wanting to wait and save money for what I want, and he doesn't really care about the details of the wedding because he just wants to get married regardless of what the wedding is like. Obviously, he thinks his opinion is right and I think mine is right.

Swazzle · January 2014

hollycarole92 said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we shouldn't have to pay for our own wedding. But I also don't think that someone should say they're going to do something that's so significant to another person's life and a month later change their mind.

And yes, I am whining, that's the point. With the bridal party (and yes, we do have a date), it's more like, I'm already upset because I'm not getting the intimate yet lavish affair I wanted, so don't make it worse by making complaints I'm already fully aware of.

And he doesn't want to wait because he says he "loves me too much to wait until we're 30 to have the wedding of our dreams and then kids." My response is that when you get married has no bearing on how much you love a person, and I can love him just as much and wait to get what I want. I think I'm being the responsible adult by wanting to wait and save money for what I want, and he doesn't really care about the details of the wedding because he just wants to get married regardless of what the wedding is like. Obviously, he thinks his opinion is right and I think mine is right.

Well, now you know not to count money until it's in your hands. It's a good lesson to learn.

JCbride2015 · January 2014

hollycarole92 said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we shouldn't have to pay for our own wedding. But I also don't think that someone should say they're going to do something that's so significant to another person's life and a month later change their mind.

And yes, I am whining, that's the point. With the bridal party (and yes, we do have a date), it's more like, I'm already upset because I'm not getting the intimate yet lavish affair I wanted, so don't make it worse by making complaints I'm already fully aware of.

And he doesn't want to wait because he says he "loves me too much to wait until we're 30 to have the wedding of our dreams and then kids." My response is that when you get married has no bearing on how much you love a person, and I can love him just as much and wait to get what I want. I think I'm being the responsible adult by wanting to wait and save money for what I want, and he doesn't really care about the details of the wedding because he just wants to get married regardless of what the wedding is like. Obviously, he thinks his opinion is right and I think mine is right.

Yeah, obviously your FILs were not very nice when they said they would pay and then rescinded the offer. But as Swazzle said, this is a good lesson to learn early before you are locked into contracts or something and then find out the money isn't coming.

It sounds like you and Fi just fundamentally disagree. Obviously, I personally think you should wait, if having a big wedding is that important to you. You and Fi need to sit down and have a heart to heart about balancing your desire to be married soon against your desire to have a big wedding. Is there a compromise somewhere in here-- would a 2 or 3 year engagement be enough time to save up for a wedding? You have to let go of your dreams of a perfect or princess wedding, but I don't think it's too much to hope you are able to properly host your guests with yummy food, an open bar if you desire, and some fun and dancing. Maybe a couple years is enough to save what you need for a compromise middle-of-the-road wedding.

climbingsingle · January 2014

hollycarole92 said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we shouldn't have to pay for our own wedding. But I also don't think that someone should say they're going to do something that's so significant to another person's life and a month later change their mind.

And yes, I am whining, that's the point. With the bridal party (and yes, we do have a date), it's more like, I'm already upset because I'm not getting the intimate yet lavish affair I wanted, so don't make it worse by making complaints I'm already fully aware of.

And he doesn't want to wait because he says he "loves me too much to wait until we're 30 to have the wedding of our dreams and then kids." My response is that when you get married has no bearing on how much you love a person, and I can love him just as much and wait to get what I want. I think I'm being the responsible adult by wanting to wait and save money for what I want, and he doesn't really care about the details of the wedding because he just wants to get married regardless of what the wedding is like. Obviously, he thinks his opinion is right and I think mine is right.

Oh good. A special snowflake.

If you want a lavish wedding, then save up for it. There's nothing wrong with waiting a few years. I'm sorry, but you're both 21. You're babies. There's no rush. What's wrong with getting married at 24?

You seem more focused on the wedding than the actual marriage. And honestly, that's a recipe for disaster. It's ONE day out of your life. What's more important to you? Having a "lavish affair" or being married to your fiance?

It looks like you have two choices - get married now and throw the wedding you can afford. Wait and save up for what you want.

Also, you said your bridal party is complaining there's not enough food? Exactly what do you plan on serving?

delujm0 · January 2014

You're so young - if I were you, I'd wait until I had graduated college and started making money in my post-college career before planning a wedding. FI have been together since we were 22, and we are just getting married now, at 31. Just because we didn't get married earlier doesn't mean we loved each other any less. We just had other things we wanted to do first. You don't need to get married immediately, just because you are in love.

You and FI need to make a list of what is important to you and what your budget is. If your budget won't allow you to get most of what is important to you, just wait a while. If you truly cant agree on anything for this wedding - maybe you need to take a look at your ability to compromise with each other. this wedding will NOT be the hardest issue you ever have to deal with. You need to learn to work things out before getting married.

FWIW, the second you invite guests to your wedding, the wedding stops being all about YOUR DAY. Suddenly, you have to consider their basic needs as well. The following things should never be sacrificed due to budget concerns - so if you can't afford them now, wait until you can:

-a chair for everyone to sit in, at the ceremony and at the reception

-if your ceremony/reception will take place during meal time, a complete meal (buffet or sit down)

-your guests should never have to open their wallets at your wedding - so only host the bar package you can afford. If you can't afford a bar package, you have a dry wedding. If you can only afford to host beer and wine, you just host beer and wine. Do not have a cash bar so that you can use the bar money on other stuff.

There are some planinng choices you can make that will make your wedding less expensive - do it on a Friday or Sunday, do it at a non-meal time so you don't have to provide a full meal, do a brunch wedding because people tend to drink less in the daytime. Have a very small guest list if you need to control costs.

If your BMs are complaining about lack of food availability, that might be legitimate if you're getting married between the hours of 11am - 1pm or 5pm - 8pm, your reception needs to have a full meal provided. If you want to have a dessert-only reception, have your wedding at 8pm, reception from 9-12. If you want to only provide some appetizers, have your wedding at 1pm, reception from 2-5. If you do this at any other time, and don't provide a meal, that's poor hosting.

Your BMs are very rude to complain about lack of booze. A wedding does not have to include alcohol.

Some things really aren't that important...i'd pay for a good photographer but not do fancy flowers. I've been to dozens of weddings, and i don't remember the flowers from any of them. I remember the food a all of them, especially the ones that had poor food or not enough food. Get yourself a nice bouquet and then do non-floral centerpieces. That can save money.

Lastly, I'm going to give my canned response to budget concerns here, because I am a financial professional: Please make sure you don't go into credit card debt for your wedding or honeymoon. Only sign up for what you have the cash to pay for when it is due. Don't assume you'll get cash wedding gifts and can use that to offset costs. It doesn't always work out. And you don't want to start your marriage with a bunch of wedding related debt, especially if you will also have student debt to deal with.

Good luck!

bethsmiles · January 2014

I get that it sucks that your FILs said they would help pay and then backed out but that's life. There is no point in being upset about it for more than a few moments because you can't do anything about it. Just because you are young and still in school doesn't mean you are entitled to someone else paying for your wedding. Getting married is your choice no one is responsible for paying for it no matter what they may have said before.

Why exactly does your FI want to get married rightthissecond? How long have you been together? Waiting doesn't mean you need to wait until you are 30. You are very young, there is absolutely no reason to rush getting married. Honestly, given what you've posted here I would wait. Not just so you can save up for the wedding you want but so that you and your FI can learn to communicate better and get on the same page about things. I also suggest per-marital counseling.

hollycarole92 · January 2014

I can see his points about not waiting several (or more) years to get married. For example, we're both moving across the country in 2015 for our jobs, and it would be nice to have a wedding while we still live near all of our friends and family. We also both want to have a child before we're 25 and would prefer not to do so out of wedlock.

And it's not that I'm more focused on the wedding over the marriage. The marriage is important to me, but I also don't see how being married will change our lives terribly much because we have lived together for three years, shared a bank account for three years, shared families for three years, shared responsibilities for three years. I keep telling him nothing is going to change dramatically, but he somehow thinks it will, so he wants to hurry it along.

We were planning on dessert and appetizer stations. The reception doesn't start until 9, which I think is fine, but people are upset because of the no alcohol and not a full meal. The wedding itself doesn't start until 7, so I don't see why you couldn't eat a little something before and then just have dessert and appetizers at 9.

And yes, we do both agree it's not smart to go into loads of debt.

Inkdancer · January 2014

@hollycarole With those details, your idea for the wedding sounds etiquette-friendly. If anyone bothers you about no alcohol, no meal, etc just say "I'm sorry, we just can't do that with our budget. I hope you will come anyway." Then refuse to say another word. It is none of your friends' business.

You definitely need to have a conversation with your FI about the real costs of getting and being married. He may be feeling super stressed about the money, but there are ways to do things inexpensively without sacrificing your priorities. Let him know what's important to you (pictures for example) and talk to him about how much it matters to you to get that part right. Then cut in other areas (flowers, fancy napkins) to balance it out.

Jessa617 · January 2014

hollycarole92 said:

I can see his points about not waiting several (or more) years to get married. For example, we're both moving across the country in 2015 for our jobs, and it would be nice to have a wedding while we still live near all of our friends and family. We also both want to have a child before we're 25 and would prefer not to do so out of wedlock.

And it's not that I'm more focused on the wedding over the marriage. The marriage is important to me, but I also don't see how being married will change our lives terribly much because we have lived together for three years, shared a bank account for three years, shared families for three years, shared responsibilities for three years. I keep telling him nothing is going to change dramatically, but he somehow thinks it will, so he wants to hurry it along.

We were planning on dessert and appetizer stations. The reception doesn't start until 9, which I think is fine, but people are upset because of the no alcohol and not a full meal. The wedding itself doesn't start until 7, so I don't see why you couldn't eat a little something before and then just have dessert and appetizers at 9.

And yes, we do both agree it's not smart to go into loads of debt.

I am not trying to be mean or negative, but if you and your FI can't plan a wedding and compromise, you may want to wait a little longer to have children. That's a huge responsibility that is with you for life.

There's no reason to rush a marriage, you guys are both still young. Three years means nothing when you were just a teenager the first year.

Also- for me 7 is still dinner time, so if I have to be at the church or wherever your ceremony is by 6:30, adding in time for getting ready and travel time to the ceremony, I would have to eat dinner super early. I am going to be starving by 9pm.

freebread03 · January 2014

How do you know you're moving across the country for these jobs in 2015? Do you already have a job offer in hand, that you've signed and accepted? Have you thought about how getting pregnant just a year or so into this job will impact your career? If you can barely save up for a wedding now, how do you expect to save up enough to buy a house or condo and all the things kids need within years of graduating from college? Sounds like you haven't really thought out the details here.

hollycarole92 · January 2014

My fiancé does have his job. I personally am not super concerned about having kids so soon because ultimately I would prefer to be a stay at home mum and work from home, and my field will allow that.

loves2shop4shoes · January 2014

Well, I can sort of relate on a few things. I got engaged young (at 22). My father offered us 30k for our wedding…and then backed out before I put a deposit down on a venue. It was devastating.

If I had to do it over again, I'd either elope, have a TINY DW (like, 20 people or less), or wait and not stress myself out so much.

Maybe, if you really can't agree on a budget, you should consider one of those options.

buddysmom80 · January 2014

hollycarole92 said:

My fiancé does have his job. I personally am not super concerned about having kids so soon because ultimately I would prefer to be a stay at home mum and work from home, and my field will allow that.

I'll ditto what PP's have said. When I was 21, I thought I was going to be married and popping out some kids at 25. I'm 33, just got engaged and probably will be popping kids out at 35 instead of 25. Time for a reality check!

If you want to get married now, make some cuts. I've had to do that so far. FI wanted a nice venue, I wanted a nice photographer so we had to cut on other things. For example, I'm DIYing a lot of stuff, including flowers, centerpieces and ceremony decor. I also 86'ed wedding favors, uplighting and a lot of extra stuff I can't think of right now. Will my guests care? No, because they are being properly hosted and that's what we both cared about!

If I were you, I'd wait, save my money and have the wedding of your dreams. At the end of the day though, you're marrying your FI and that's the most important part!

delujm0 · January 2014

With just appetizers and dessert, a 9pm reception start time is completely acceptable. However, your ceremony starts at 7 - which means people will be there by 6:45 - and they're going to be very very hungry by 9.

Is there a cocktail hour from 8-9 with food, or no? I assume your ceremony would be over by 8 and then you were planning on an hour for pictures. What might work better is doing the pictures before the ceremony, the ceremony from 8-9 and then starting the reception (with available food) right at 9. That way people don't show up for the ceremony until 7:45, which is far enough past dinner time to get away with light fare at the reception.

It is extremely rude for your friends to be demanding alcohol - i'm going to chock that up to them being 21 and in college and still thinking that if there's no binge drinking, it's not a party. That's awful, i'm sorry you're dealing with that.

hollycarole92 · January 2014

That's a great idea, thank you! I can definitely see the pro's of starting at 8pm!

Surprisingly none of the younger crowd has complained about not having a bar, it's all been the handful of heavy drinkers in their late twenties/early thirties that are either in the family or we work with.

delujm0 · January 2014

hollycarole92 said:

That's a great idea, thank you! I can definitely see the pro's of starting at 8pm! Surprisingly none of the younger crowd has complained about not having a bar, it's all been the handful of heavy drinkers in their late twenties/early thirties that are either in the family or we work with.

Ugh. Shame on them. If you actually do want some booze (even just beer and wine) you may be able to find a venue in your area that allows you to bring in your own provisions. Often times, providing your own bottles of wine and beer winds up being a LOT cheaper than paying for a full open bar or having the caterer provide everything. Especially if you can buy it all in bulk - there are normally case discounts for wine and good deals at big box stores, etc. You would just need to pay for a bartender to serve it for you.

Doing your pictures before the ceremony can make your day go a lot smoother (provided that you're ok with your FI seeing you in your dress before the walk down the aisle). It enables the two of you to have some private time together beforehand (which cuts down on nerves), it enables you to get most of your pictures done when your hair and makeup are fresh (and you haven't started crying yet), and it makes it so that you only have to miss the very bare minimum of your reception in favor of having a photo shoot.

If you're not ok with seeing your FI before hand, you can at least get a majority of your solo pics with your bridal party and family done beforehand, and knock out the pics of your and your FI and your families/joint bridal parties in about 30 minutes afterwards. It took me a few weeks to convince FI to do pictures before our ceremony (he's very traditional) but we really don't want to skip the whole cocktail hour, so we're going to do it. I'm so excited about the cocktail hour food, I don't want to miss it all!

thisismynickname2 · January 2014

Besides what others have said, I'm concerned that you're fundamentally disagreeing on budget with your fiance.

Does this extend into other areas? Like, you want a $100 quality dress for an occasion and he wants you to spend $20 at H&M. Or, you want to save for more for vacations but he wants to save more for retirement. Fundamentally disagreeing on what's worth spending money on and what's not worth spending money on will be cause for a marriage filled with friction.

hollycarole92 · January 2014

thisismynickname said:
Besides what others have said, I'm concerned that you're fundamentally disagreeing on budget with your fiance.
Does this extend into other areas? Like, you want a $100 quality dress for an occasion and he wants you to spend $20 at H&M. Or, you want to save for more for vacations but he wants to save more for retirement. Fundamentally disagreeing on what's worth spending money on and what's not worth spending money on will be cause for a marriage filled with friction.

Typically we're very in sync as to what we want to spend our money on, which is part of why this is even more stressful. We both love to travel, so we often save most of our money for that, and he's actually the one who persuaded me to upscale my shopping trips rather than get everything on sale or discounted, because he always preaches quality vs quantity to me.

Rebl90 · January 2014

hollycarole92 said:

That's a great idea, thank you! I can definitely see the pro's of starting at 8pm! Surprisingly none of the younger crowd has complained about not having a bar, it's all been the handful of heavy drinkers in their late twenties/early thirties that are either in the family or we work with.

Ignore them. We are having dry wedding (we chose a venue that does not allow alcohol) and a few friends have whined about it and I don't care at all (none of them are married and we later told them how much it would cost, and that shut them up pretty quick). Alcohol is a bonus, not a requirement for properly hosting. Just make sure to have the appropriate amount of food for whichever time of day you choose.

kerbohl · January 2014

I eat supper between 5 and 5:30, so personally a 7 pm wedding would not factor in a "supper time" period for me, but I might be in the minority. So I don't think your friends should be complaining about food, and they DEFINITELY shouldn't be complaining about alcohol. But get on the same page as your FI, and be very direct about the budget. It's odd that he seems to be the spender in other things, but for the wedding he has a tight grip on how you spend the money.

Amyzen83 · January 2014

I wanted to get married when I was in my early 20s but that didn't happen I didn't meet the right one until my late 20s and now I'm getting married at 30 but I'm super happy because I have drastically matured sense then, my careers established and I'm marrying the right person (most important) because I've waited I can have my dream wedding. But honestly "my dream wedding" is a lot simpler because I've prioritized what's important and id rather save for other life things but my weddings going to be awesome!

aurorajanette · January 2014

hollycarole92 said:

That's a great idea, thank you! I can definitely see the pro's of starting at 8pm! Surprisingly none of the younger crowd has complained about not having a bar, it's all been the handful of heavy drinkers in their late twenties/early thirties that are either in the family or we work with.

Ahh! You're making me feel old! I'm in my late twenties and still feel like I'm in the "younger crowd".

Viczaesar · January 2014

delujm0 said:

With just appetizers and dessert, a 9pm reception start time is completely acceptable. However, your ceremony starts at 7 - which means people will be there by 6:45 - and they're going to be very very hungry by 9.

Is there a cocktail hour from 8-9 with food, or no? I assume your ceremony would be over by 8 and then you were planning on an hour for pictures. What might work better is doing the pictures before the ceremony, the ceremony from 8-9 and then starting the reception (with available food) right at 9. That way people don't show up for the ceremony until 7:45, which is far enough past dinner time to get away with light fare at the reception.

It is extremely rude for your friends to be demanding alcohol - i'm going to chock that up to them being 21 and in college and still thinking that if there's no binge drinking, it's not a party. That's awful, i'm sorry you're dealing with that.

This. 7 pm is still dinner time so you would need to serve a meal. If you push back your ceremony to 8 pm you're fine doing dessert and appetizers.

Kerigirl9 · January 2014

aurorajanette said:

hollycarole92 said:

That's a great idea, thank you! I can definitely see the pro's of starting at 8pm! Surprisingly none of the younger crowd has complained about not having a bar, it's all been the handful of heavy drinkers in their late twenties/early thirties that are either in the family or we work with.

Ahh! You're making me feel old! I'm in my late twenties and still feel like I'm in the "younger crowd".

Lol.... I'm 43 and feel the same way! Wait til you look in the mirror someday and your MOTHER looks back!

Major vent...

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