Fighting FI over open bar

jenna8984 · February 2014

I seriously don't know how to proceed. This was our conversation this morning

me- So babe, I know we decided up front months ago on a cash bar but after reading and learning on TK I see how rude they are and would like to do open bar.

FI- Absolutely not. Stop listening to a bunch of internet strangers that don't even know you, we're not doing it.

me- It's not just "internet strangers"- it's rules of etiquette to being a good host.

FI- F**k that- there are no rules of etiquette, everyone can do what they please.

me- Um, no, there are rules...shall I buy you one of the many books that exist?

FI- I don't care, we're not doing it. If my friends think I'm rude for that then screw them they're not my real friend.

me- Why? Why are you so against it?

FI- Because we don't drink (each been sober 5 years), so I don't want our wedding being a bunch of drunk idiots.

me- Ok, you're confusing open bar with frat party. Look at our guest list- there's only ONE person out of the entire guest list that I can see getting drunk. The rest of our friends aren't like that and will have 0-2 drinks.

FI- True, but that one person is my father and he's a drunk and I refuse to contribute to him getting shitfaced and embarrassing me and himself at my wedding.

me- If he's going to get that drunk, it'll happen whether he's buying or we're buying. It doesn't matter. So do you want a dry wedding, which is the only way around that?

FI- No, that's stupid, our friends can have a drink if they chose. We shouldn't take that away from them.

me- Ok then what's the problem if I want to host them properly and pay for it? I looked over the venue prices and if I buy XX number of wine bottles, and XX number kegs it will be plenty. No shots or liquor. The price is reasonable and I'm willing to fit it into my budget to be a good host.

FI- No. I want no part of enabling people to get drunk. YOU can pay for it if that's what you want, but I will not contribute.

We are paying for the wedding ourselves. I can afford this BUT my dilemma is going against his wishes...I'm a firm believer that we are a team in life and I don't want to go ahead with something that he feels so strongly against. I don't know how to change his mind, I feel like he's never going to strictly because of his father- he refuses to think about the other guests. Aaaahh- what do I do!! (Please try to be constructive and not just say that my FI is being an a-hole lol)

Gerbertmcway · February 2014

Ugh, I learned early on that when convincing my fiancé that we should follow etiquette and be good hosts to NOT say that you got the information from wedding boards. Because really, I learned things here, but the reason I want to abide by them is because I realize the reasoning behind it - I'm not doing it just because random internet strangers told me so.

But anywho, I think you should calmly and rationally explain to your fiancé that technically even providing a cash bar can be considered "enabling" your guests to get drunk if they wish. If he feels that strongly about certain people not getting drunk, you should have a dry wedding. Otherwise, you should make sure to have a good bartender who will limit drinks to those who have already had quite a few. Just make sure to explain to him WHY you want to provide a hosted bar and why it's so important to you.

RebeccaB88 · February 2014

Well, if his dad is an alcoholic, then he must be buying himself the alcohol to get drunk with. So the argument that he's not going to pay for someone to get drunk doesn't really fly. Dad will get drunk either way.

At any other social situation, 'I'm not going to keep you from drinking, but I'm not going to buy you a drink either' would work just find and be pretty responsible of him to say. But it doesn't work like that when you're hosting something. 'I'm paying for this party' means you're paying for everything. But it sounds like his feelings about alcohol are getting in the way of him seeing that.

If he really said 'you can pay for it but I'm not', then I'd personally say 'OK' and pay for whatever bar I wanted to provide (and what you say you can pay for sounds just fine) and let him deal. If he didn't mean what he said, then he shouldn't have said it. You aren't going against his wishes if he said it was OK with him if you did it.

chibiyui · February 2014

That sucks. I mean, technically if there is any booze at all for your guests to imbibe, whether you pay for it or the guests pay for it, you're enabling people ( his dad) getting shitfaced, but I don't think he'd like that line of logic.

You know your FI best, I'd try for the "we don't charge our friends for wine when they come over for board games" line of reasoning, but worse comes to worse, just pay for the limited bar yourself.

phira · February 2014

Honestly, if this is how he's reacted to the issue, his reaction is more of a problem than his desire for a cash bar. That's a really angry overreaction.

For your situation, I'd consider two options: have a dry wedding, or have a limited open bar. And when I say LIMITED, I mean supply/pay your venue or caterer for a limited amount of beer and wine, and when that runs out, the alcohol is gone.

My partner is super dead-set against closing the bar when we run out of booze that we've paid for, but it's mainly because our venue is not going to run out of booze and guests will be able to tell that the bar is closing because we're out of dough and not because the booze is gone. But at his brother's wedding, his brother and sister-in-law supplied the alcohol themselves and put it all out at the start of the reception, so it was very clear how many bottles of beer, bourbon, and vodka were available. That's the kind of limited open bar I'd recommend.

Your fiance is clearly very upset about alcohol at the wedding as a general thing, and it sounds like this is really about more than just 1) not wanting to pay for other people's alcohol or 2) not wanting people to get faced. If he can't handle this conversation without being an asshole about it, I would suggest finding a counselor to talk to--the problem, again, isn't whether or not you serve alcohol or how you serve it, but his reaction to the conversation.

Good luck

kmmssg · February 2014

I think your biggest challenge here is his EMOTIONAL reluctance to go for an open bar because he is the child of an alcoholic, not because he is a cheap a-hole. You have the tougher challenge of the two here. I am driving (well about to get back on the road from a break) but i will try to think of something helpful from his pov since i come from an alcoholic family too. More to come when I get home.

Gerbertmcway · February 2014

phira said:

Honestly, if this is how he's reacted to the issue, his reaction is more of a problem than his desire for a cash bar. That's a really angry overreaction.

For your situation, I'd consider two options: have a dry wedding, or have a limited open bar. And when I say LIMITED, I mean supply/pay your venue or caterer for a limited amount of beer and wine, and when that runs out, the alcohol is gone.

My partner is super dead-set against closing the bar when we run out of booze that we've paid for, but it's mainly because our venue is not going to run out of booze and guests will be able to tell that the bar is closing because we're out of dough and not because the booze is gone. But at his brother's wedding, his brother and sister-in-law supplied the alcohol themselves and put it all out at the start of the reception, so it was very clear how many bottles of beer, bourbon, and vodka were available. That's the kind of limited open bar I'd recommend.

Your fiance is clearly very upset about alcohol at the wedding as a general thing, and it sounds like this is really about more than just 1) not wanting to pay for other people's alcohol or 2) not wanting people to get faced. If he can't handle this conversation without being an asshole about it, I would suggest finding a counselor to talk to--the problem, again, isn't whether or not you serve alcohol or how you serve it, but his reaction to the conversation.

Good luck

While I don't agree with his reasoning, I didn't get an over the top angry or asshole vibe from the conversation. Also remember the bias in how OP remembers the conversation in her mind.

WildMagelet · February 2014

I would just provide the bar you want and not bring it up again.

His dad is going to get drunk whether you have a hosted bar or an open bar. If you think it will be an issue point it out to the bartenders so they can cut him off before its a problem.

I have a similar problem with FI, but he's more of the camp that most wedding fluff is unnecessary and expensive and the majority of the weddings/events he attended before we were together were cash bar weddings. I told him he wouldn't have to pay for it and that I would make arrangements for it and he subsequently stopped griping about it.

phira · February 2014

@Gerbertmcway I do find it inconsistent at best that he would refuse to pay for alcohol because he feels very strongly about not wanting people to get drunk at his wedding ... but he refuses to have a dry wedding because he also feels very strongly about LETTING people get drunk at his wedding.

doeydo · February 2014

Give him the options:
1. Open bar (limited to beer and wine which is in your budget, judging by your OP), potentially 'warn' bartender(s) about alcoholic FFIL?
2. Dry wedding/no alcohol is served.
That's it. Cash bars are not an option and will not stop anyone from drinking. Perhaps you could even print out a copy of the OP grumbledore's in the Cash Bars - Everything you need to know in one place thread and give it to him to read.

jenna8984 · February 2014

phira said:
@Gerbertmcway I do find it inconsistent at best that he would refuse to pay for alcohol because he feels very strongly about not wanting people to get drunk at his wedding ... but he refuses to have a dry wedding because he also feels very strongly about LETTING people get drunk at his wedding.

Because we know the other guests' drinking habits and know that they won't be getting obnoxious drunk. So he doesn't think its fair to penalize those who are responsible and can handle themselves (which I agree with).

doeydo · February 2014

jenna8984 said:

@Gerbertmcway I do find it inconsistent at best that he would refuse to pay for alcohol because he feels very strongly about not wanting people to get drunk at his wedding ... but he refuses to have a dry wedding because he also feels very strongly about LETTING people get drunk at his wedding.
Because we know the other guests' drinking habits and know that they won't be getting obnoxious drunk. So he doesn't think its fair to penalize those who are responsible and can handle themselves (which I agree with).

But it isn't being 'penalized'. If you invited some friends over to your house for dinner and offered them water, coffee, or tea, that would be perfectly fine. In fact, it would be rude of them to expect/assume you would have alcohol. The same goes for weddings.

Liatris2010 · February 2014

If his father is an alcoholic, it is safe to assume he is going to drink regardless of who is picking up the tab. People get drunk all the time, usually on their own dime.

So try these choices:
1. Dry wedding, preferably during the day when most people are unlikely to miss bar options.
2. Beer and wine only: This might be a good compromise since FI wants to people to be able to drink. Depending on FFIL's poison of choice, beer and wine only might slow him down. Otherwise maybe a signature cocktail he is unlikely to go for. Maybe something pink, with sparkling moscato?
3. Open bar: Roll the dice. FFIL might be on his best behavior, especially if he doesn't want other people to know about his problem.

jenna8984 · February 2014

@doeydo isn't part of being a good host offering what your guests like/ expect? To me not offering alcohol at a wedding is synonymous with inviting everyone over for Thanksgiving then serving them ramen noodles. Oh you expected turkey and mashed potatoes, how rude of you!

MyNameIsNot · February 2014

Gerbertmcway said:

Ugh, I learned early on that when convincing my fiancé that we should follow etiquette and be good hosts to NOT say that you got the information from wedding boards. Because really, I learned things here, but the reason I want to abide by them is because I realize the reasoning behind it - I'm not doing it just because random internet strangers told me so.

But anywho, I think you should calmly and regionally explain to your fiancé that technically even providing a cash bar can be considered "enabling" your guests to get drunk if they wish. If he feels that strongly about certain people not getting drunk, you should have a dry wedding. Otherwise, you should make sure to have a good bartender who will limit drinks to those who have already had quite a few. Just make sure to explain to him WHY you want to provide a hosted bar and why it's so important to you.

The bolded, exactly. Don't tell him a cash bar is rude because the knottie message boards say so. Don't print the hundreds of threads about it. Get a decent etiquette book out of the library, and tell him it's important to you to follow basic etiquette even if he thinks his friends would forgive him for being rude. If it's important to you to be polite, that should be reason enough for him.

Then pay for it yourself as he offered, and drop it.

APDSS22 · February 2014

Maybe your FI getting to know the bartender so he knows that the bartender will be responsible and professional, and cut people off that need to be cut off would help? If you can't trust your guests to cut themselves off responsibly, maybe he'll feel better if he meets the professional he's hiring to be able to do exactly that.

Jen4948 · February 2014

Tell him that expecting guests to pay for drinks in order to keep one person from drinking is rude to all the other guests who don't get shitfaced, and to expect them to walk out if they get charged for their drinks.

Liatris2010 · February 2014

jenna8984 said:

@doeydo isn't part of being a good host offering what your guests like/ expect? To me not offering alcohol at a wedding is synonymous with inviting everyone over for Thanksgiving then serving them ramen noodles. Oh you expected turkey and mashed potatoes, how rude of you!

Yes, but to a point. You have to serve things appropriate for the time of day. Guests expect dinner at dinner time, so it would be pretty rude to provide cheese and crackers, but not rude to forgo expensive steaks. Guests should expect beverages, but so long as you are providing water, soda, tea skipping the alcohol is perfectly acceptable.

kmmssg · February 2014

I have to do this from my phone and I hate my phone's keyboard.

Anyhoo, without knowing his dad's history I don't know if i am on the right track. I used to attend adult children of alcoholics meetings. I remember some people talking about incredible embarrassment from their parents alcoholic rages and avoiding events with them if alcohol was served. Some of them were just horrendous stories. If FI's experiences were like that I can understand an over the top reaction.

I agree that you shouldn't mention what the knot says to be right. You need to take some time and let him chill out from the emotional reaction. In the end you need to go open bar or dry wedding. Talk to him about the reality of who will be the problem drinker and making sure FFIL KNOWS he will be removed from the premises if he gets out of hand. (he most likely will).

I strongly encourage you to remember there is a LOT you can't understand if you have not walked this road and he has a lot of emotion and hurt behind his reaction. Help him work through it and make a solid plan for his dad. Good luck!

FiancB · February 2014

I had a similar issue with FI but it was over the expense. He came around when we went to a wedding with an open bar and he realized that was really nice, and when I showed him some prices he realized that having an open bar isn't that expensive. Cash is really common in his circle. His dad was flabbergasted at the idea of having an open bar, and even some friends that had really expensive weddings still did cash bars.

BUT that's not really the problem here. FI sounds really against drinking, in which case the best thing to do would be to have a dry wedding, or just a champagne toast, or something. It does sound like in the end he'd be fine if there were some kegs and bottles of wine. It sounds like he'd come around to that option, even if he's a little crabby about it right now.

I would think FFIL would keep it dialed down a notch for his son's wedding, but you never know. If he wouldn't with an open bar, he isn't going to with a cash one either.

SP29 · February 2014

The analogy I like best for explaining an open bar, is to treat your guests like they were in your home for dinner. You wouldn't offer wine at dinner, but tell everyone they had to pay for it.

pinkshorts27 · February 2014

SP29 said:

The analogy I like best for explaining an open bar, is to treat your guests like they were in your home for dinner. You wouldn't offer wine at dinner, but tell everyone they had to pay for it.

I also like the "you wouldn't let guests upgrade their beef to kobe beef for a surcharge or upgrade their chicken to beef, so why charge to upgrade their soda for a beer."

missnc77 · February 2014

The issue seems like something much deeper than what's polite to do at the wedding. Perhaps you should table this issue for a second and have a real conversation with your FI about his father and how that's affected him. I don't know, just seems like he's hurting, and having the conversation in context of weddings and guests (already stressful things) probably exacerbates the hurt. Work through that first, then try to approach the subject again and see if there is some sort of compromise. Reassure him that even if his dad does get drunk at the wedding, that you're a team now, and you're in this together. He doesn't have to deal with it on his own.

jenna8984 · February 2014

missnc77 said:

The issue seems like something much deeper than what's polite to do at the wedding. Perhaps you should table this issue for a second and have a real conversation with your FI about his father and how that's affected him. I don't know, just seems like he's hurting, and having the conversation in context of weddings and guests (already stressful things) probably exacerbates the hurt. Work through that first, then try to approach the subject again and see if there is some sort of compromise. Reassure him that even if his dad does get drunk at the wedding, that you're a team now, and you're in this together. He doesn't have to deal with it on his own.

Thank you, that's good advice. I did debate whether we should sit down the FI's mom and dad before the wedding and kind of tell them to "behave" but I don't know if that's inappropriate telling elders what to do/ how to act.

His father is definitely a functioning alcoholic- he works 50 hours a week and does some side construction work and doesn't drink during the week. But every weekend he just gets tanked and then bails on us because he "doesn't feel well". Like yesterday he was supposed to come help FI get the snow off our roof and he used that excuse for the thousandth time and FI just lost his shit and said "see this P.O.S. can't keep his promises to us because he'd rather go drinking the night before, this is exactly why I don't want to provide him with drinks at the wedding!" I just said "I know" and walked away, I didn't bring up the other guests or the previous discussion.

banana468 · February 2014

But if you have a bar at all he'll drink. Unless your FFIL only drinks booze that others buy for him, his logic makes no sense.

PrettyGirlLost · February 2014

banana468 said:

But if you have a bar at all he'll drink. Unless your FFIL only drinks booze that others buy for him, his logic makes no sense.

Regardless of whether or not you have a dry reception or there is a bar in the building but you aren't using it, an alcoholic WILL find a way to get drunk. There are things called flasks, or 40's in bags, etc.

phira · February 2014

Yeah, if there's booze, the people who always get faced will find a way to get faced. It's hard to tell if the groom is more upset by the idea of his dad getting blasted OR by the idea of footing the bill for his dad to get blasted.

Just wanted to second the analogy that a cash bar is like inviting people over and asking them to pay for their drinks. I kept trying to explain to my partner that if we had a limited open bar without top shelf liquor, it was OKAY to not let people pay for better booze. "But what if my brother, who can afford it, wants a really nice glass of scotch we're not offering?"

WELP if he were a guest at our home and we didn't have that nice bottle of scotch, he'd be shit outta luck, and wouldn't it be rude of him to say something? You bet your ass.

jenna8984 · February 2014

phira said:

Yeah, if there's booze, the people who always get faced will find a way to get faced. It's hard to tell if the groom is more upset by the idea of his dad getting blasted OR by the idea of footing the bill for his dad to get blasted.

Just wanted to second the analogy that a cash bar is like inviting people over and asking them to pay for their drinks. I kept trying to explain to my partner that if we had a limited open bar without top shelf liquor, it was OKAY to not let people pay for better booze. "But what if my brother, who can afford it, wants a really nice glass of scotch we're not offering?"

WELP if he were a guest at our home and we didn't have that nice bottle of scotch, he'd be shit outta luck, and wouldn't it be rude of him to say something? You bet your ass.

I'm pretty sure I've narrowed the issue down to this. He doesn't want it on our shoulders if FFIL gets smashed. He wants to be able to say "you ruined my day on your own, not because I put in front of you" and force the blame on FFIL and not on us for contributing to that behavior. I understand where he's coming from- you wouldn't put free crack in front of a crackhead and then blame the crackhead for using it. I also understand that the crackhead will get it either way, but it's not our our conscience if they get it for themselves.

I think the only real solution is having a heart to heart sit down with him and tell him what is expected of him and if he has too many he will be asked to leave. I'm not willing to have it be dry and tell my own parents and friends that they can't drink.

phira · February 2014

Yeah, and assuming that you have a bartender serving your alcohol, you can give the bartender the heads up that the father of the groom may need to be cut off sooner than other guests.

It does sound like he almost wants his father to ruin things by getting drunk at the wedding. I'm NOT saying this like, "WELL sounds like your fiance is LOOKING FORWARD to having his wedding ruined!" Sometimes, I kind of hope that my dad will try to crash my wedding, or my future sister-in-law will insult my wedding DURING my wedding so I can tell her off the way I've always wanted to (for the record, both of these things have a non-zero chance of happening, especially the latter). It's not about actually wanting your wedding to be ruined; it's about finally feeling justified in saying, "See? Your behavior really IS hurtful and detrimental and you're victimizing me."

PrettyGirlLost · February 2014

Having a cash bar or dry reception is only going to annoy the people who like to and can drink responsibly. FFIL will still find a way to get smashed all on his own if he reallisan alcoholic, but the only way he can ruin FI's wedding is if FI allows himto ruin it.

Give the bar tender a heads up and have FFIL cut off. . .or better yet have the bartender serve him virgin drinks on the sly. And if FFIL gets rowdy have venue staff escort him out.

singinchick13 · February 2014

If he feels that a dry wedding would be penalizing his friends that do drink responsibly, maybe you can convince him that a cash bar is penalizing them as well, by causing them to have to open their wallets at your wedding. They should not have to pay (literally) for his father's behavior, and the two of you should not be forced into not properly hosting your wedding because of it either. If there is alcohol, he will drink. If there is not alcohol, he will still find a way to drink. Explain this to FI and make him understand that the simple act of having a cash bar is allowing his father to influence the way the two of you plan your day, and that is not fair. Hosting the kind of bar you would like despite FFIL's track record shows a united front and that the two of you are going to make the choices you want to make for yourselves without having to break out the 'kid gloves' for him, so to speak. If he cannot drink responsibly like the rest of the guests, he will be cut off, no one is giving him license to drink himself into a stupor. And remember, you and FI are in no way responsible for his actions; he is an adult.

Fighting FI over open bar

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