Miss or Ms. for older never-married woman

pinkshorts27 · February 2014

Is an unmarried woman over 30 (never been married) referred to as Ms. or Miss?

Is either offensive?

I have two older (as in older than me, not as in old) cousins that have never been married. They are pretty sensitive to this fact. They get mad whenever anyone else gets engaged or married. In fact when I got engaged and they found out (in person) they didn't even smile or congratulate me, which is fine. No skin off my nose, but just wanted to illustrate that they have made it clear (vocally to the family and non-vocally) how upset they are that they haven't been married. They are 35 and 40. I am unsure on how to address their envelopes. I don't want to slight them at all and I know they are pretty sensitive. Which would be less likely to offend them?

ETA: Just to add, I'm not judging them for not being married. Marriage isn't everything, but they have made it clear (they have told us) that they think everyone is judging them. So I'm trying to be least offensive. I know it is a little touchy that I am 23 and getting married.

doeydo · February 2014

I believe it is "Ms." for an adult non-married woman.

pinkshorts27 · February 2014

At what age do you go from Miss to Ms.?

KittyKaty20 · February 2014

I would use Ms.

The form "Miss" indicates a younger, girlish female.

"Ms." is often pronounced in America as "mizz", and is used professionally and socially to indicate someone more mature than a girl; often she is unmarried, but sometimes it's just a professional moniker.

doeydo · February 2014

I would say when one turns 18 they are a Ms.

SammiNJonni · February 2014

If you are really worried ask them which they prefer. Some people still feel that it is Miss or Mrs and Ms only belongs in business settings while other people prefer Ms. Since you say they hate that they are still single they probably dislike Miss but it never hurts to ask.

huskypuppy14 · February 2014

Remember Ms. Can be for married or unmarked women. Miss is strictly for unmarried, so from the info you gave in your OP I would assume your cousin would prefer Ms.

HisGirlFriday13 · February 2014

I think Ms. is probably the safer bet, but is there anyone you can ask? Their mother (your aunt)? Your mother?

Jen4948 · February 2014

Ms. is probably the default, but you might ask around to find out what they use.

Or don't use titles.

CMGragain · February 2014

Miss = unmarried female of any age.
Ms. = female of undetermined marital status

Either is correct. Miss does not mean a young girl. In the south, elderly unmarried ladies are almost always "Miss". Of course, it is pronounced "miz" anyway, at least in the south. OK, Miss Scarlet?
Most older ladies don't like "Ms." because it wasn't commonly used until the 1970s. You won't find it in older etiquette books.

pinkshorts27 · February 2014

Hmm. I texted my aunt (she hates phone calls). I'll have to see. This part of the family is notoriously unresponsive, but also notoriously easy to offend.

phira · February 2014

These days, the correct default when you're not sure is Ms.

Yes, some women prefer Miss if they're unmarried and don't like Ms. But if you can't find out their preference for sure and you must guess, guess Ms.

trulymarvelous · February 2014

It's my understanding "Miss" is used for young ladies who aren't in the "work force" yet. Ms. is to be used for an unmarried woman who works and supports herself.

mimiphin · February 2014

I'm 23 and I would rather be refereed to as Miss, than Ms. To *me* Ms. just sounds wrong, and as the only female in my family I have the right and honour of being Miss. Maidenname until I am married.
I would either ask them or leave it off.

pinkshorts27 · February 2014

Okay everyone. Thanks for your help! I will ask and if I don't hear back I may just leave them off, but I'll ask my parents first. I'm sure my parents will just say "Ms."

RebeccaB88 · February 2014

I'm in my 40s and I find Miss offensive (at my age). I would default to Ms if you can't get an answer.

lovesclimbing · February 2014

I'm curious, I had never even heard of Ms. vs. Miss before the Knot. How would you even ask someone which they prefer? Are they pronounced differently? Or do you say "Do you go by Miss spelled out or Ms. abbreviated?" That seems terribly awkward. I don't understand why both are even needed.

wrigleyville · February 2014

Miss is pronounced just like it looks. Ms. is pronounced Mizz.

I started using Ms. when I turned 21. It just felt right, especially since I was about to graduate.

RissAnn1970 · February 2014

I was married at 38, and up until the day before my wedding wouldn't have minded either Miss or Ms. At my current 43, if I were still single, I still wouldn't care either way. I think being offended over one or the other when both are correct is ridiculous. These days, I'm pretty happy when I get Miss rather than ma'am, that's for sure.

CMGragain · February 2014

RissAnn1970 said:

I was married at 38, and up until the day before my wedding wouldn't have minded either Miss or Ms. At my current 43, if I were still single, I still wouldn't care either way. I think being offended over one or the other when both are correct is ridiculous. These days, I'm pretty happy when I get Miss rather than ma'am, that's for sure.

THIS!!!

themuffinman16 · February 2014

As someone who has waited a long time to get married, I would say that I honestly preferred just a first and last name. It feels like people dealt with you differently because you were still single. (I was called a spinster at 24 by my aunt). I am sure that's not the case here, but a few people can say so many hurtful things that you start to think everyone feels that way about you. I know it is improper, but I would just use first and last names for these women. And then it doesn't have to be conveyed any way. The etiquette Gods might hate this, but i think it would eliminate any drama.

AddieCake · February 2014

I preferred Ms. before I got married. I got married at 38.

RissAnn1970 · February 2014

CMGragain said:
Miss = unmarried female of any age.
Ms. = female of undetermined marital status

Either is correct. Miss does not mean a young girl. In the south, elderly unmarried ladies are almost always "Miss". Of course, it is pronounced "miz" anyway, at least in the south. OK, Miss Scarlet?
Most older ladies don't like "Ms." because it wasn't commonly used until the 1970s. You won't find it in older etiquette books.

I was thinking about this. I don't think I realized it was a southern thing because up here (NJ) it's translated into being an African American thing. I have friends whose kids are instructed to call me "Miss Larissa." I love it.

HisGirlFriday13 · February 2014

themuffinman16 said:
As someone who has waited a long time to get married, I would say that I honestly preferred just a first and last name. It feels like people dealt with you differently because you were still single. (I was called a spinster at 24 by my aunt). I am sure that's not the case here, but a few people can say so many hurtful things that you start to think everyone feels that way about you. I know it is improper, but I would just use first and last names for these women. And then it doesn't have to be conveyed any way. The etiquette Gods might hate this, but i think it would eliminate any drama.

I was also called a spinster at 24 by a family friend, and it sucked. But (at least where I come from) only children get addressed without titles -- I would have been more offended not to have a title than I would have over Miss/Ms.

And I am with the PPs who prefer 'miss' to 'ma'am'.

AroundTheBlock · February 2014

I've been a "spinster" for well over half a century. The word literally denotes an unmarried female who has a means of income independent of her husband or father. The first university I attended (where I was active in the women's movement at the time that we were popularizing use of the title "Ms" for very good economic reasons) has one of the oldest Women's Centres of any post-secondary institution in the country, and the Centre was originally called "The Sisterhood of Independent Spinsters." Honi soit qui mal y pense: I think spinsterhood is something to be proud of;

tigersgirlgv · February 2014

I am one who prefers Miss. Somehow as a child I got it in my head that Ms. was for women who got divorced (I don't know if someone told me that or my little brain just made it up...). I know that is clearly not the correct usage, but that connotation has still stuck for me.

Also, I'm a teacher, so I get referred to as Miss Lastname all day!

doeydo · February 2014

People actually call others 'spinsters'? I know that technically it means an unmarried woman and is not meant as an insult/bad thing, but to me the word always comes across that way. It also makes me think of Bridget Jones's Diary.

themuffinman16 · February 2014

Yes, older relatives will usually make spinster comments, and of course, my father. lol. My father has been married three times (he is now married to "The Trilogy"). All of my cousins got married at 19, but they also all got divorced by the time they were 20. I am happy that I waited because I know in fully knowing your partner, you are less likely to be surprised by the man you married. They can judge all they want, because, in my heart, I made the right decision for me.

I, personally, despise titles because I hate labels. It makes you feel like if you are not in one category, you get sidelined to the next. Just like I hate boxes that ask you if you are white, black, latino or other... why does it matter, anymore?

phira · February 2014

One of the reasons why I want to avoid using titles on invitations (we'll probably use them but uuuugh) is because for women, unless you have a fancy professional title (for example, Dr) whatever title you have marks you in some way.

Miss? You're unmarried.

Mrs? You're married.

Ms? FEMINIST HARPY trying to break tradition.

Whereas:

Mr? Just a title.

Guys are unmarked. Gals are marked. That's why it feels like we can never win if we change OR keep our last names, and there's no safe unloaded default title we can use for women (since a lot of women DO get offended if you call them Ms).

Jen4948 · February 2014

phira said:

One of the reasons why I want to avoid using titles on invitations (we'll probably use them but uuuugh) is because for women, unless you have a fancy professional title (for example, Dr) whatever title you have marks you in some way.

Miss? You're unmarried.
Mrs? You're married.
Ms? FEMINIST HARPY trying to break tradition.

Whereas:

Mr? Just a title.

Guys are unmarked. Gals are marked. That's why it feels like we can never win if we change OR keep our last names, and there's no safe unloaded default title we can use for women (since a lot of women DO get offended if you call them Ms).

Actually, Ms. is supposed to be "just a title" that doesn't indicate marital status for women. I actually don't like to be called Miss. (It sounds like "hit or miss" to me.)

antoto · February 2014

phira said:

One of the reasons why I want to avoid using titles on invitations (we'll probably use them but uuuugh) is because for women, unless you have a fancy professional title (for example, Dr) whatever title you have marks you in some way.

Miss? You're unmarried.
Mrs? You're married.
Ms? FEMINIST HARPY trying to break tradition.

Whereas:

Mr? Just a title.

Guys are unmarked. Gals are marked. That's why it feels like we can never win if we change OR keep our last names, and there's no safe unloaded default title we can use for women (since a lot of women DO get offended if you call them Ms).

I go by Ms. now and will continue to go by Ms. after I get married for the exact double standard bull you mention here.

Ms. is the title I give nearly every female with the exception of my grandmothers because I know they would faint or something (eyeroll)

Miss or Ms. for older never-married woman

Re: Miss or Ms. for older never-married woman

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