Many states/ places have this as a crime and it should be.
People should do jail time. If she knew she had HIV and had unprotected sex, then she knew she could be killing someone. It doesn't matter that she didn't intend that they get HIV. She knew she had it and thus she knew she could transmit it.
All that matters is the she knew she had HIV and failed to tell the other person.
The issue is that she took the other person's informed consent away. The person that consented to sex didn't know he was signing up to maybe die. He then no longer really consented. She knew he was taking a chance & failed to tell him. That's morally and criminally negligent.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jail-time-spreading-hiv?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e1a7fdc5-4ac0-44b6-ac04-310061d5d841Post:d843508a-d1de-4e75-8c7f-c4ff3d9834c5">Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : A) I don't know what kind of guys you know, but every guy friend I have now (that I'm close enough to talk about sex to) has told me that they will NEVER go un protected with a girl who they're casually dating or who they don't know is clean or not. Again, mainly for pregnancy purposes, but still! B) No. I don't care if "guys are guys". They can man up and do the responsible thing. You seem to have a low opinion of men in this response -- I don't know if that's really your POV, but that's definitely how you're coming across here. A man is just as responsible as a woman when it comes to safe sex. Posted by baystateapple[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with you - they SHOULD be just as responsible - but it just never seems to be that way...my mom was an Anatomy and Health teacher and she was constantly talking to girls who were running into guys who just refused to wear condoms and the girls felt pressured and gave in. I honestly just feel like guys SHOULD be responsible but girls have the option to close their legs if they are really adamant about it. I had a guy once tell me he wasn't going to wear a condom - at that point it was up to me to say "well then, no sex for you" and soon after we broke up.
It's not that I have a low opinion of men, I have just run across some winners in my day lol.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jail-time-spreading-hiv?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e1a7fdc5-4ac0-44b6-ac04-310061d5d841Post:e7a2bcd2-9d04-4375-a9d5-a9de0cae79cf">Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : But he's not comparable to someone who was on their way home from work and got slammed by a drunk driver. <strong>He's comparable to someone who got into a car with someone who may have been drinking and they then got into an accident.</strong> Don't get me wrong. It's terrible, awful that he got infected. And what she did was really wrong. But there was a point at which he could have made a choice that resulted in him not getting infected at all. Posted by mandapanda78[/QUOTE]
If he (the passenger) was killed in the accident the driver would be held 100% responsible and most likely do jail time.
xyrius: Are you seriously saying " i have never seen his HIV test, and I have to take his word for it that he doesn't have it." ???
I have always made the person I was seeing/going to sleep with, get tested for stds and hiv before sleeping with them. yes, they groaned about it but didn't have a problem with me going to the clinic with them and being there when they went back for results because they usually don't give them paper results to take home. My fiance had NEVER been tested for stds/hiv in his 30 years which shocked me because he admitted to not liking condoms so there was no way I'd let him sleep with me before getting tested.
If a husband cheats and gets the disease, he is 100% responsible and has the obligation to inform his wife of his disease. If he cannot tell her and continues to be unprotected, he is a douche who doesn't care about his wife and their future children and should be penalized.
I don't care if the man chose to wear a condom or not. Personally, thats not the issue. And unfortunately most STDs can still be contracted even with a condom.
In New York, and possibly other states by now, you are required by law to list all past partners you have had, and an anonymous call is made to them saying someone they have been with is HIV positive and they should be tested. Your name is never given. Also, I'm trying to find it for sure, but I'm pretty sure you are also required to tell all future partners you are HIV positive. If not, it is considered assault with a deadly weapon. I know other states have used that argument too in cases.
I'm sorry, but you won't convince me that this woman is not at fault, and I think she definitely deserves jail time.
ETA: I mean I don't care if the man in the article chose to wear a condom or not. I don't mean in general. After I posted I realized there is a second conversationg going on about wearing condoms and not.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jail-time-spreading-hiv?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e1a7fdc5-4ac0-44b6-ac04-310061d5d841Post:e3494d4b-8a6d-4c82-a3a5-8b22d410278b">Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : I could be wrong, but I think Manda isn't trying to blame the victim, she's trying to point out that both of them were irresponsible, and both of them should have made wiser decisions. She definitely did a selfish and irresponsible thing, but he DID know (at least, he should have) that <strong>having unprotected sex with someone whose sexual history you don't know is ALWAYS a risk.</strong> Posted by baystateapple[/QUOTE]
For sure. But she definitely had a BIT more information here to work with...
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jail-time-spreading-hiv?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e1a7fdc5-4ac0-44b6-ac04-310061d5d841Post:a72b5647-5395-4730-835c-f34d55bdad6f">Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?</a>: [QUOTE]Many states/ places have this as a crime and it should be. People should do jail time. If she knew she had HIV and had unprotected sex, then she knew she could be killing someone. It doesn't matter that she didn't intend that they get HIV. She knew she had it and thus she knew she could transmit it. All that matters is the she knew she had HIV and failed to tell the other person. The issue is that she took the other person's informed consent away. The person that consented to sex didn't know he was signing up to maybe die. He then no longer really consented. She knew he was taking a chance & failed to tell him. That's morally and criminally negligent. Posted by redheadfsu[/QUOTE] So, it's tantamount to manslaughter in many ways, right? The intent wasn't to cause bodily harm or injury, but it happened because of negligence or an accident, etc. What's the going rate for manslaughter these days? A fine and a couple of years?
I'm not saying that either party was right, because clearly no one was. I'm just saying that the assumption of having to do jail time- especially in one of the European or American club med jails-- isn't actually a reliable form of punishment. IMO, having to help shoulder the burden of the person's medical bills (either in part or in full) would be a much better impact because that lasts the rest of your and their life, whereas with jail time, you are there for a couple of years and it's over. *shrug*
In Houston, when a person has HIV, they give a list of names/phone numbers/addresses of previous partners when they are given the positive result, they are also offered counseling. The Department of Health & Human Services calls the previous partners 1st to make sure they will be home and then they show up, knock on door and offer them a HIV test in their mobile truck, outside in their parking lot. They will not reveal who gave them their information. If they also turn out HIV positive, they ask for their previous partners and the process continues....never ending
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jail-time-spreading-hiv?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e1a7fdc5-4ac0-44b6-ac04-310061d5d841Post:a72b5647-5395-4730-835c-f34d55bdad6f">Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?</a>: [QUOTE]Many states/ places have this as a crime and it should be. People should do jail time. If she knew she had HIV and had unprotected sex, then she knew she could be killing someone. It doesn't matter that she didn't intend that they get HIV. She knew she had it and thus she knew she could transmit it. All that matters is the she knew she had HIV and failed to tell the other person. <strong>The issue is that she took the other person's informed consent away. The person that consented to sex didn't know he was signing up to maybe die. He then no longer really consented. She knew he was taking a chance & failed to tell him. That's morally and criminally negligent.</strong> Posted by redheadfsu[/QUOTE]
THIS is definitely where I was trying to go. Fine, he was taking a risk by having unprotected sex, but it would be different if neither partner KNEW they had a deadly disease. You take a risk of being hit by a drunk driver when you get into a car. You take a risk of developing salmonella when you eat undercooked eggs. Lots of things in life are risky. That doesn't mean people don't do them sometimes.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jail-time-spreading-hiv?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e1a7fdc5-4ac0-44b6-ac04-310061d5d841Post:52099f79-39f3-4a2b-9889-b691e9ecb976">Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : So, it's tantamount to manslaughter in many ways, right? The intent wasn't to cause bodily harm or injury, but it happened because of negligence or an accident, etc. What's the going rate for manslaughter these days? A fine and a couple of years? I'm not saying that either party was right, because clearly no one was. I'm just saying that the <strong>assumption of having to do jail time- especially in one of the European or American club med jails-- isn't actually a reliable form of punishment.</strong> IMO, having to help shoulder the burden of the person's medical bills (either in part or in full) would be a much better impact because that lasts the rest of your and their life, whereas with jail time, you are there for a couple of years and it's over. *shrug* Posted by AmoroAgain[/QUOTE]
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jail-time-spreading-hiv?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e1a7fdc5-4ac0-44b6-ac04-310061d5d841Post:52099f79-39f3-4a2b-9889-b691e9ecb976">Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : So, it's tantamount to manslaughter in many ways, right? The intent wasn't to cause bodily harm or injury, but it happened because of negligence or an accident, etc. What's the going rate for manslaughter these days? A fine and a couple of years? I'm not saying that either party was right, because clearly no one was. I'm just saying that the assumption of having to do jail time- especially in one of the European or American club med jails-- isn't actually a reliable form of punishment. IMO, having to help shoulder the burden of the person's medical bills (either in part or in full) would be a much better impact because that lasts the rest of your and their life, whereas with jail time, you are there for a couple of years and it's over. *shrug* Posted by AmoroAgain[/QUOTE]
yep, like manslaughter in a way. No malice, but you still injured/killed someone.
Oh, I'm sure a civil suit will follow soon. At least in a civil suit here, the victim would win their medical bills & pain and suffering. Criminal and civil are two completely different animals.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jail-time-spreading-hiv?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e1a7fdc5-4ac0-44b6-ac04-310061d5d841Post:6e8b11a4-ca9f-4274-9ee1-eddcaea8cb2d">Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : For sure. But she definitely had a BIT more information here to work with... Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]
Oh, definitely. And I think she should be held MORE accountable for it. But I also think that he played some part in this as well. She should be held accountable for her actions, and she was criminally negligent, but he did something incredibly stupid as well.
People with no intention of ever killing someone get jail time. Women and men who accidentally murder/kill someone get jail time. Vehicular manslaughter anyone?
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jail-time-spreading-hiv?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e1a7fdc5-4ac0-44b6-ac04-310061d5d841Post:b2bcb5b6-050a-4a86-8c2f-1ecca708d6a6">Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : Oh, definitely. And I think she should be held MORE accountable for it. But I also think that he played some part in this as well. She should be held accountable for her actions, and she was criminally negligent,<strong> but he did something incredibly stupid as well.</strong> Posted by baystateapple[/QUOTE]
and he paid the price.
I think we all fundamentally agree though that her punishment does not fit the crime?
Should he have worn a condom? Yeah, of course. But that doesn't make her any less criminally responsible for her own behavior.
Also - whether the threat of jailtime changes behavior or not isn't really my primary concern. If she's that careless about infecting people, any time she's in jail and unable to do so is good for society, in my opinion.
Attaching a fine to it that mandates she pay his medical care is fine, IMO, but I want to see her go to jail too.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jail-time-spreading-hiv?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e1a7fdc5-4ac0-44b6-ac04-310061d5d841Post:3a7b80d6-425c-4813-b273-677149334179">Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : and he paid the price. I think we all fundamentally agree though that her punishment does not fit the crime? Posted by xyrius[/QUOTE]
Yes. I agree with you on that. And I agree that he is paying the price for it.
And I agree with Kate, I do think she should have done the same amount of jail time that someone gets for involuntary manslaughter. She might not have "meant" to kill him, but she did know what she was doing. I'm not buying her "I didn't know that it could be transmitted" story.
FWIW, I fully support her paying his medical bills.
I DO wonder though, for everyone who's diagnosed HIV positive and required to give the names and phone numbers of all their partners... what if they don't KNOW the names and numbers of their partners?
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jail-time-spreading-hiv?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e1a7fdc5-4ac0-44b6-ac04-310061d5d841Post:eafc6f95-e303-40e5-9839-a77500ac7a8c">Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?</a>: [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : hopefully it would make people think twice before placing success, or anything in that matter in front of transmitting a lethal disease. it takes two to tango, i get that. but if AT LEAST one of those two thinks .. <strong>"hmm.. maybe i can spend A LOT of time in jail for this if I transmit HIV to this person"</strong>, it would prevent it from happening? Posted by xyrius[/QUOTE]
Interesting that you say that. I heard an interview on BBC radio this morning, the woman speaking is HIV positive and the founder of a group in England that researches and deals with the social stigmas surrounding HIV and AIDS. I wish I could remember her name or her organization's name. If you KNOWINGLY infect someone, the consequences are much higher than if you infect someone without knowing. She stated that their research results indicated that the threat of jail time doesn't discourage people from having unprotected sex, it just discourages people from being tested for HIV.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jail-time-spreading-hiv?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e1a7fdc5-4ac0-44b6-ac04-310061d5d841Post:3d77779a-9752-40ff-91e3-4dd2013e9f90">Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?</a>: [QUOTE]FWIW, I fully support her paying his medical bills. I DO wonder though, for everyone who's diagnosed HIV positive and required to give the names and phone numbers of all their partners... what if they don't KNOW the names and numbers of their partners? Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]
From what I remember (not personal experience -- just professional), the health department only expects people to list known partners. It's not like they come after people for forgetting a sexual contact or not knowing someone's latest address. You can only provide the information you know at hand.
Add that to the list of reasons why one night stands are not good ideas.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jail-time-spreading-hiv?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e1a7fdc5-4ac0-44b6-ac04-310061d5d841Post:ada0ab9f-166e-4e56-b293-ea0a24af4563">Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?</a>: [QUOTE]Should he have worn a condom? Yeah, of course. But that doesn't make her any less criminally responsible for her own behavior. Also - whether the threat of jailtime changes behavior or not isn't really my primary concern. If she's that careless about infecting people, any time she's in jail and unable to do so is good for society, in my opinion. Attaching a fine to it that mandates she pay his medical care is fine, IMO, but I want to see her go to jail too. Posted by squirrly[/QUOTE]
I agree with this.
It is not a crime to not wear a condom. It is a crime to knowingly transmit HIV without consent. Would the guy not have had sex with her and/or worn a condom if he knew that she had HIV?
That's why I don't think its this guy's responsibility or mitigates her culpability. She knew she had HIV. She had sex with the guy without telling him that she had HIV.
Sure, he should have asked, but would she have told him the truth? What percentage of people in Germany have HIV? The difference between the HIV and baby argument is that the intended consequence of unprotected sex is a child. It is not contracting an STD.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jail-time-spreading-hiv?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding%20BoardsForum:9Discussion:e1a7fdc5-4ac0-44b6-ac04-310061d5d841Post:da87587e-071a-46ee-9f84-15a88022e031">Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?</a>: [QUOTE]she deserves it. what a twunt. Posted by laladypoet[/QUOTE]
Also, the guy has to actually die before its considered murder or manslaughter. So, it would be attempted manslaughter if they tried and convicted her before he died from AIDS. So, that would be a much lower criminal sentence here in the States.
Redhead is right: a civil suit will surely follow to cover all of his tort claims.
here's the thing, and no amount of arguing the details and "what-ifs" can change it: she knew she had HIV and she knowingly slept with people without telling them. what she did is wrong and twisted. not telling is totally, 100% on her.
In Response to <a href="http://forums.theknot.com/Sites/theknot/Pages/Main.aspx/wedding-boards_etiquette_jail-time-spreading-hiv?plckFindPostKey=Cat:Wedding BoardsForum:9Discussion:e1a7fdc5-4ac0-44b6-ac04-310061d5d841Post:c177f859-9d25-4069-be4e-ad80d123ca69">Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?</a>: [QUOTE]Also, the guy has to actually die before its considered murder or manslaughter. So, it would be attempted manslaughter if they tried and convicted her before he died from AIDS. So, that would be a much lower criminal sentence here in the States. Redhead is right: a civil suit will surely follow to cover all of his tort claims. Posted by parker624[/QUOTE]
When I said kind of like manslaughter, I should have clarified. Most states have a specific statute just for this, so it wouldn't be under manslaughter. I was more trying to explain the intent aspect.
Like: Fla. Stat. Ann. § 384.24(2).
I don't handle criminal law so I can't give much more info on specifics.
Re: Jail time for spreading HIV?
he was stupid, and he was also responsible. what did he get for his mistake? HIV.
what did she get (that is comparable)? .....
that's my point.
eta: nonsense on my behalf, nobody elses. i've had a bit too much coffee and i'm feeling argumentative today.
Many states/ places have this as a crime and it should be.
People should do jail time. If she knew she had HIV and had unprotected sex, then she knew she could be killing someone. It doesn't matter that she didn't intend that they get HIV. She knew she had it and thus she knew she could transmit it.
All that matters is the she knew she had HIV and failed to tell the other person.
The issue is that she took the other person's informed consent away. The person that consented to sex didn't know he was signing up to maybe die. He then no longer really consented. She knew he was taking a chance & failed to tell him. That's morally and criminally negligent.
Planning Bio
Married 9/15/11
*This is Not Legal Advice*
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : A) I don't know what kind of guys you know, but every guy friend I have now (that I'm close enough to talk about sex to) has told me that they will NEVER go un protected with a girl who they're casually dating or who they don't know is clean or not. Again, mainly for pregnancy purposes, but still! B) No. I don't care if "guys are guys". They can man up and do the responsible thing. You seem to have a low opinion of men in this response -- I don't know if that's really your POV, but that's definitely how you're coming across here. A man is just as responsible as a woman when it comes to safe sex.
Posted by baystateapple[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with you - they SHOULD be just as responsible - but it just never seems to be that way...my mom was an Anatomy and Health teacher and she was constantly talking to girls who were running into guys who just refused to wear condoms and the girls felt pressured and gave in. I honestly just feel like guys SHOULD be responsible but girls have the option to close their legs if they are really adamant about it. I had a guy once tell me he wasn't going to wear a condom - at that point it was up to me to say "well then, no sex for you" and soon after we broke up.
It's not that I have a low opinion of men, I have just run across some winners in my day lol.
I'm doing Team in Training for the Leukemia and Lymphoma Society!
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : But he's not comparable to someone who was on their way home from work and got slammed by a drunk driver. <strong>He's comparable to someone who got into a car with someone who may have been drinking and they then got into an accident.</strong> Don't get me wrong. It's terrible, awful that he got infected. And what she did was really wrong. But there was a point at which he could have made a choice that resulted in him not getting infected at all.
Posted by mandapanda78[/QUOTE]
If he (the passenger) was killed in the accident the driver would be held 100% responsible and most likely do jail time.
I have always made the person I was seeing/going to sleep with, get tested for stds and hiv before sleeping with them. yes, they groaned about it but didn't have a problem with me going to the clinic with them and being there when they went back for results because they usually don't give them paper results to take home. My fiance had NEVER been tested for stds/hiv in his 30 years which shocked me because he admitted to not liking condoms so there was no way I'd let him sleep with me before getting tested.
If a husband cheats and gets the disease, he is 100% responsible and has the obligation to inform his wife of his disease. If he cannot tell her and continues to be unprotected, he is a douche who doesn't care about his wife and their future children and should be penalized.
In New York, and possibly other states by now, you are required by law to list all past partners you have had, and an anonymous call is made to them saying someone they have been with is HIV positive and they should be tested. Your name is never given. Also, I'm trying to find it for sure, but I'm pretty sure you are also required to tell all future partners you are HIV positive. If not, it is considered assault with a deadly weapon. I know other states have used that argument too in cases.
I'm sorry, but you won't convince me that this woman is not at fault, and I think she definitely deserves jail time.
ETA: I mean I don't care if the man in the article chose to wear a condom or not. I don't mean in general. After I posted I realized there is a second conversationg going on about wearing condoms and not.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : I could be wrong, but I think Manda isn't trying to blame the victim, she's trying to point out that both of them were irresponsible, and both of them should have made wiser decisions. She definitely did a selfish and irresponsible thing, but he DID know (at least, he should have) that <strong>having unprotected sex with someone whose sexual history you don't know is ALWAYS a risk.</strong>
Posted by baystateapple[/QUOTE]
For sure. But she definitely had a BIT more information here to work with...
40/112
[QUOTE]Many states/ places have this as a crime and it should be. People should do jail time. If she knew she had HIV and had unprotected sex, then she knew she could be killing someone. It doesn't matter that she didn't intend that they get HIV. She knew she had it and thus she knew she could transmit it. All that matters is the she knew she had HIV and failed to tell the other person. The issue is that she took the other person's informed consent away. The person that consented to sex didn't know he was signing up to maybe die. He then no longer really consented. She knew he was taking a chance & failed to tell him. That's morally and criminally negligent.
Posted by redheadfsu[/QUOTE]
So, it's tantamount to manslaughter in many ways, right? The intent wasn't to cause bodily harm or injury, but it happened because of negligence or an accident, etc. What's the going rate for manslaughter these days? A fine and a couple of years?
I'm not saying that either party was right, because clearly no one was. I'm just saying that the assumption of having to do jail time- especially in one of the European or American club med jails-- isn't actually a reliable form of punishment. IMO, having to help shoulder the burden of the person's medical bills (either in part or in full) would be a much better impact because that lasts the rest of your and their life, whereas with jail time, you are there for a couple of years and it's over. *shrug*
[QUOTE]Many states/ places have this as a crime and it should be. People should do jail time. If she knew she had HIV and had unprotected sex, then she knew she could be killing someone. It doesn't matter that she didn't intend that they get HIV. She knew she had it and thus she knew she could transmit it. All that matters is the she knew she had HIV and failed to tell the other person. <strong>The issue is that she took the other person's informed consent away. The person that consented to sex didn't know he was signing up to maybe die. He then no longer really consented. She knew he was taking a chance & failed to tell him. That's morally and criminally negligent.</strong>
Posted by redheadfsu[/QUOTE]
THIS is definitely where I was trying to go. Fine, he was taking a risk by having unprotected sex, but it would be different if neither partner KNEW they had a deadly disease. You take a risk of being hit by a drunk driver when you get into a car. You take a risk of developing salmonella when you eat undercooked eggs. Lots of things in life are risky. That doesn't mean people don't do them sometimes.
40/112
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : So, it's tantamount to manslaughter in many ways, right? The intent wasn't to cause bodily harm or injury, but it happened because of negligence or an accident, etc. What's the going rate for manslaughter these days? A fine and a couple of years? I'm not saying that either party was right, because clearly no one was. I'm just saying that the <strong>assumption of having to do jail time- especially in one of the European or American club med jails-- isn't actually a reliable form of punishment.</strong> IMO, having to help shoulder the burden of the person's medical bills (either in part or in full) would be a much better impact because that lasts the rest of your and their life, whereas with jail time, you are there for a couple of years and it's over. *shrug*
Posted by AmoroAgain[/QUOTE]
ok, i see the point you're trying to make now.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : So, it's tantamount to manslaughter in many ways, right? The intent wasn't to cause bodily harm or injury, but it happened because of negligence or an accident, etc. What's the going rate for manslaughter these days? A fine and a couple of years? I'm not saying that either party was right, because clearly no one was. I'm just saying that the assumption of having to do jail time- especially in one of the European or American club med jails-- isn't actually a reliable form of punishment. IMO, having to help shoulder the burden of the person's medical bills (either in part or in full) would be a much better impact because that lasts the rest of your and their life, whereas with jail time, you are there for a couple of years and it's over. *shrug*
Posted by AmoroAgain[/QUOTE]
yep, like manslaughter in a way. No malice, but you still injured/killed someone.
Oh, I'm sure a civil suit will follow soon. At least in a civil suit here, the victim would win their medical bills & pain and suffering. Criminal and civil are two completely different animals.
Planning Bio
Married 9/15/11
*This is Not Legal Advice*
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : For sure. But she definitely had a BIT more information here to work with...
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]
Oh, definitely. And I think she should be held MORE accountable for it. But I also think that he played some part in this as well. She should be held accountable for her actions, and she was criminally negligent, but he did something incredibly stupid as well.
Books read in 2012: 21/50
People with no intention of ever killing someone get jail time. Women and men who accidentally murder/kill someone get jail time. Vehicular manslaughter anyone?
Send her to jail.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : Oh, definitely. And I think she should be held MORE accountable for it. But I also think that he played some part in this as well. She should be held accountable for her actions, and she was criminally negligent,<strong> but he did something incredibly stupid as well.</strong>
Posted by baystateapple[/QUOTE]
and he paid the price.
I think we all fundamentally agree though that her punishment does not fit the crime?
Also - whether the threat of jailtime changes behavior or not isn't really my primary concern. If she's that careless about infecting people, any time she's in jail and unable to do so is good for society, in my opinion.
Attaching a fine to it that mandates she pay his medical care is fine, IMO, but I want to see her go to jail too.
Dresses may be easier to take in than let out, but guest lists are not. -- kate51485
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : and he paid the price. I think we all fundamentally agree though that her punishment does not fit the crime?
Posted by xyrius[/QUOTE]
Yes. I agree with you on that. And I agree that he is paying the price for it.
And I agree with Kate, I do think she should have done the same amount of jail time that someone gets for involuntary manslaughter. She might not have "meant" to kill him, but she did know what she was doing. I'm not buying her "I didn't know that it could be transmitted" story.
Books read in 2012: 21/50
{pwanning}{mawwied}
I DO wonder though, for everyone who's diagnosed HIV positive and required to give the names and phone numbers of all their partners... what if they don't KNOW the names and numbers of their partners?
40/112
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Jail time for spreading HIV? : hopefully it would make people think twice before placing success, or anything in that matter in front of transmitting a lethal disease. it takes two to tango, i get that. but if AT LEAST one of those two thinks .. <strong>"hmm.. maybe i can spend A LOT of time in jail for this if I transmit HIV to this person"</strong>, it would prevent it from happening?
Posted by xyrius[/QUOTE]
Interesting that you say that. I heard an interview on BBC radio this morning, the woman speaking is HIV positive and the founder of a group in England that researches and deals with the social stigmas surrounding HIV and AIDS. I wish I could remember her name or her organization's name. If you KNOWINGLY infect someone, the consequences are much higher than if you infect someone without knowing. She stated that their research results indicated that the threat of jail time doesn't discourage people from having unprotected sex, it just discourages people from being tested for HIV.
[QUOTE]FWIW, I fully support her paying his medical bills. I DO wonder though, for everyone who's diagnosed HIV positive and required to give the names and phone numbers of all their partners... what if they don't KNOW the names and numbers of their partners?
Posted by msmerymac[/QUOTE]
From what I remember (not personal experience -- just professional), the health department only expects people to list known partners. It's not like they come after people for forgetting a sexual contact or not knowing someone's latest address. You can only provide the information you know at hand.
Add that to the list of reasons why one night stands are not good ideas.
[QUOTE]Should he have worn a condom? Yeah, of course. But that doesn't make her any less criminally responsible for her own behavior. Also - whether the threat of jailtime changes behavior or not isn't really my primary concern. If she's that careless about infecting people, any time she's in jail and unable to do so is good for society, in my opinion. Attaching a fine to it that mandates she pay his medical care is fine, IMO, but I want to see her go to jail too.
Posted by squirrly[/QUOTE]
I agree with this.
It is not a crime to not wear a condom. It is a crime to knowingly transmit HIV without consent. Would the guy not have had sex with her and/or worn a condom if he knew that she had HIV?
That's why I don't think its this guy's responsibility or mitigates her culpability. She knew she had HIV. She had sex with the guy without telling him that she had HIV.
Sure, he should have asked, but would she have told him the truth? What percentage of people in Germany have HIV? The difference between the HIV and baby argument is that the intended consequence of unprotected sex is a child. It is not contracting an STD.
[QUOTE]she deserves it. what a twunt.
Posted by laladypoet[/QUOTE]
Oh, lala. I love your succinctness.
Books read in 2012: 21/50
Also, the guy has to actually die before its considered murder or manslaughter. So, it would be attempted manslaughter if they tried and convicted her before he died from AIDS. So, that would be a much lower criminal sentence here in the States.
Redhead is right: a civil suit will surely follow to cover all of his tort claims.
{pwanning}{mawwied}
[QUOTE]Also, the guy has to actually die before its considered murder or manslaughter. So, it would be attempted manslaughter if they tried and convicted her before he died from AIDS. So, that would be a much lower criminal sentence here in the States. Redhead is right: a civil suit will surely follow to cover all of his tort claims.
Posted by parker624[/QUOTE]
When I said kind of like manslaughter, I should have clarified. Most states have a specific statute just for this, so it wouldn't be under manslaughter. I was more trying to explain the intent aspect.
Like: Fla. Stat. Ann. § 384.24(2).
I don't handle criminal law so I can't give much more info on specifics.
Planning Bio
Married 9/15/11
*This is Not Legal Advice*