WR: Requirements and Stipulations

HisGirlFriday13 · March 2014

urbaneca said:

@HisGirlFriday13 @pumpkinsandturkeys Stupid TK is not letting me quote. Anyway. Don't worry, I understand completely.

I must be quite honest, I've been wondering the same thing since FI and the FILs insisted that we ask uncle. Having been raised Catholic myself (and more actively so than FI) I always thought that a Catholic priest couldn't marry anyone outside the church. At least, not without special dispensation, which as I understand is a bitch to get. But I'm assuming uncle is open to it. Surely, if he wasn't, he would have turned FI down in November when he first asked? Unless maybe he thinks he's going to convert me...

I'm not opposed to having a religious element in the ceremony, I just refuse to perjure myself by making vows I don't agree with. Does that make sense? I'm really not trying to be difficult, but I feel like making a promise before God is a very serious thing, and if I don't believe in God then I'm really "just saying" it, and if I can "just say" that, then what else can I "just say". To me, religious vows would just be words. You know?

I can't help looking back on my sister's first wedding, where her openly atheist ex-husband made all the customary promises before God because my sister insisted on a Catholic ceremony. When my sister found out that he had been cheating on her, she went on and on about "didn't the vows we took mean anything to him?" and of course they didn't, because to him they were just words that he said so he could screw her. I'm not saying that I have any intention of cheating on FI, or of breaking my vows, I just want them to actually mean something. Anyway, that got a little ranty. Sorry.

Honestly, asking FI's uncle to officiate is purely to keep the family happy. I would much prefer to have a civil officiant. But then, I would much prefer to get married at Home Affairs and have lunch with our parents after, but that's not going to happen.

I suggested to FI that we have a civil officiant and just ask uncle to do a blessing, or to have uncle do everything but the vows and have a civil officiant for that, but apparently neither option is acceptable. I'm not sure what we're going to do if uncle says that he's not going to officiate...

ETA another mention

He can't. And the dispensation for marrying outside the church only applies to marrying someone outside a physical church building, not the spiritual church itself.

I'm very, very surprised that your FI's uncle agreed to this, unless he doesn't know the full extent of the parameters -- i.e., he thinks you're just not a practising Catholic, he doesn't know you're an atheist.

The priest who married us told us straight-up that he wouldn't marry a believer to a non-believer, because he couldn't in good conscience perform a sacred ritual for someone who doesn't believe it.

It concerns me that your desires for the very central part of the day -- the ceremony itself -- are being shunted aside in favour of what your FI and FILs want. Certainly your FI's opinion matters, and you two will have to reach a compromise (have the uncle do a blessing seems eminently reasonable), but this doesn't seem like a reasonable compromise.

pumpkinsandturkeys · March 2014

urbaneca said:

@HisGirlFriday13 @pumpkinsandturkeys Stupid TK is not letting me quote. Anyway. Don't worry, I understand completely.

I must be quite honest, I've been wondering the same thing since FI and the FILs insisted that we ask uncle. Having been raised Catholic myself (and more actively so than FI) I always thought that a Catholic priest couldn't marry anyone outside the church. At least, not without special dispensation, which as I understand is a bitch to get. But I'm assuming uncle is open to it. Surely, if he wasn't, he would have turned FI down in November when he first asked? Unless maybe he thinks he's going to convert me...

I'm not opposed to having a religious element in the ceremony, I just refuse to perjure myself by making vows I don't agree with. Does that make sense? I'm really not trying to be difficult, but I feel like making a promise before God is a very serious thing, and if I don't believe in God then I'm really "just saying" it, and if I can "just say" that, then what else can I "just say". To me, religious vows would just be words. You know?

I can't help looking back on my sister's first wedding, where her openly atheist ex-husband made all the customary promises before God because my sister insisted on a Catholic ceremony. When my sister found out that he had been cheating on her, she went on and on about "didn't the vows we took mean anything to him?" and of course they didn't, because to him they were just words that he said so he could screw her. I'm not saying that I have any intention of cheating on FI, or of breaking my vows, I just want them to actually mean something. Anyway, that got a little ranty. Sorry.

Honestly, asking FI's uncle to officiate is purely to keep the family happy. I would much prefer to have a civil officiant. But then, I would much prefer to get married at Home Affairs and have lunch with our parents after, but that's not going to happen.

I suggested to FI that we have a civil officiant and just ask uncle to do a blessing, or to have uncle do everything but the vows and have a civil officiant for that, but apparently neither option is acceptable. I'm not sure what we're going to do if uncle says that he's not going to officiate...

ETA another mention

He may be hoping to convert you, which would be wrong. You need to have a frank discussion with your FI and address your concerns.

To the rest of the bolded, I admire and appreciate your respect for the Church and faith. You are correct in that making a promise before God IS a very serious thing, and not to be taken lightly. If you do not believe in God or if you do not want a marriage rooted in faith and the Church, you should be having a civil ceremony.

I am also concerned that you'd rather keep everyone else happy than have the wedding that you want and deserve, and that aligns with your beliefs and values. I understand being respectful of FI and his family's faith, but they also need to be respectful of yours (or lack thereof). He can partake in a civil ceremony without it affecting his system of beliefs, and go on being as Catholic as he wants. You, however, cannot partake in a religious ceremony without agreeing to subscribe to a system of beliefs you do not hold, and you cannot force yourself to pretend to spend your life as a Catholic when you are not. It's not fair to you, to him, or the Church.

Please stand up for what you want.

Peaseblossom55 · March 2014

We have to read three books, we had to do a focus test and discuss it with a deacon and we have pre-cana coming up in a few weeks. That is what is required with our church.

KytchynWitche · March 2014

HisGirlFriday13 said:

He can't. And the dispensation for marrying outside the church only applies to marrying someone outside a physical church building, not the spiritual church itself.

I'm very, very surprised that your FI's uncle agreed to this, unless he doesn't know the full extent of the parameters -- i.e., he thinks you're just not a practising Catholic, he doesn't know you're an atheist.

The priest who married us told us straight-up that he wouldn't marry a believer to a non-believer, because he couldn't in good conscience perform a sacred ritual for someone who doesn't believe it.

It concerns me that your desires for the very central part of the day -- the ceremony itself -- are being shunted aside in favour of what your FI and FILs want. Certainly your FI's opinion matters, and you two will have to reach a compromise (have the uncle do a blessing seems eminently reasonable), but this doesn't seem like a reasonable compromise.

Like I said, I couldn't make it to the first meeting because I got stuck at work, so possibly there was miscommunication between FI and uncle about my religious affiliations, or lack thereof. Either that or uncle really does think he's going to magically make me believe. I'm almost 100% certain that when we meet (with any luck) at the end of the month, uncle is going to say that he can't do it.

I know this sounds weird, but I really don't care all that much about the wedding. But the wedding "with all the trimmings" is important to FI, so I'm going with it because I love him and want him to be happy. I just want to marry the love of my life, and I want to do that without either upsetting him or being totally dishonest.

I agree that some sort of compromise needs to be reached, but I really don't think it's going to happen unless/until uncle actually comes out and says that he's not prepared to marry us with civil vows.

Basically, I see one of two things happening after we meet with uncle. Either FI and the FILs are going to agree to have some sort of joint ceremony with civil vows, or FI is going to continue to insist that uncle officiates, in which case the wedding would be called off altogether.

KytchynWitche · March 2014

pumpkinsandturkeys said:

He may be hoping to convert you, which would be wrong. You need to have a frank discussion with your FI and address your concerns.

To the rest of the bolded, I admire and appreciate your respect for the Church and faith. You are correct in that making a promise before God IS a very serious thing, and not to be taken lightly. If you do not believe in God or if you do not want a marriage rooted in faith and the Church, you should be having a civil ceremony.

I am also concerned that you'd rather keep everyone else happy than have the wedding that you want and deserve, and that aligns with your beliefs and values. I understand being respectful of FI and his family's faith, but they also need to be respectful of yours (or lack thereof). He can partake in a civil ceremony without it affecting his system of beliefs, and go on being as Catholic as he wants. You, however, cannot partake in a religious ceremony without agreeing to subscribe to a system of beliefs you do not hold, and you cannot force yourself to pretend to spend your life as a Catholic when you are not. It's not fair to you, to him, or the Church.

Please stand up for what you want.

Thanks. I try to have integrity, and to be respectful towards others. I don't always get it right, but I try. Just because I don't share certain beliefs doesn't mean I need to trash those beliefs.

The thing that's really baffling to me is that FI is not religious either. The FILs stopped actively practicing Catholicism long before FI was born, and FI has never been a practicing Catholic - where I was raised in the church, went to Catholic school, made First Communion, served on the altar, and was Confirmed in the church. So I don't understand why they're being so insistent...

HisGirlFriday13 · March 2014

@urbaneca, if your FI isn't a Confirmed Catholic, and you're not actively practising, no priest could marry you even if you WANTED to have the full Catholic Mass. At least one of the parties has to be a practising, confirmed Catholic in good standing.

KytchynWitche · March 2014

HisGirlFriday13 said:

@urbaneca, if your FI isn't a Confirmed Catholic, and you're not actively practising, no priest could marry you even if you WANTED to have the full Catholic Mass. At least one of the parties has to be a practising, confirmed Catholic in good standing.

This is another thing that has been bugging the shit out of me. But FI and FILs are determined... I'm just gonna let this play out until uncle actually comes out and says he's not gonna marry us. Really, this wedding has caused me enough headaches.

I have honestly been tempted to call the whole damn thing off, but that would be bridezillaish. I'm starting to feel a lot like Piper...

pumpkinsandturkeys · March 2014

All I have to say now is *HUG*

FiancB · March 2014

Cookie Pusher said:

My friend is getting ordained to officiate our wedding. The only stipulation she had was that we actually get married!

This. There might be a stipulation that we pay the fee to make the friend legal. Pretty sure that'll be it!

Cookie Pusher · March 2014

FiancB said:

Cookie Pusher said:

My friend is getting ordained to officiate our wedding. The only stipulation she had was that we actually get married!

This. There might be a stipulation that we pay the fee to make the friend legal. Pretty sure that'll be it!

Getting ordained online is free! I told my friend we would pay to order additional copies of any documents that she needs to submit with our license to prove she is in good standing, but that's it. We're doing a non-religious ceremony so the only thing she cares about is whether we're going to actually go through with it or not. lol

HisGirlFriday13 · March 2014

Cookie Pusher said:

FiancB said:

Cookie Pusher said:

My friend is getting ordained to officiate our wedding. The only stipulation she had was that we actually get married!

This. There might be a stipulation that we pay the fee to make the friend legal. Pretty sure that'll be it!

Getting ordained online is free! I told my friend we would pay to order additional copies of any documents that she needs to submit with our license to prove she is in good standing, but that's it. We're doing a non-religious ceremony so the only thing she cares about is whether we're going to actually go through with it or not. lol

But some states still require a fee for the person to officiate, even if they got ordained online.

Cookie Pusher · March 2014

Aaah. NJ doesn't as far as I know, they just require a letter of good standing, so I had no idea. All I know is, there was no way I was paying some stranger $600+ for a 7 minute ceremony with no reading/blessings/unity ceremony.

pumpkinsandturkeys · March 2014

Here in ON, we can't even ask a friend to do it. Our only options for a legal marriage are an ordained religious officiant or judge/JOP/municipal clerk. No one else can legally marry you here.

Maggie0829 · March 2014

Cookie Pusher said:

Aaah. NJ doesn't as far as I know, they just require a letter of good standing, so I had no idea. All I know is, there was no way I was paying some stranger $600+ for a 7 minute ceremony with no reading/blessings/unity ceremony.

Exactly why we had a friend get ordained for our wedding as well. And as far as I know it was free for him (from MD).

SBmini · March 2014

My fiance and I are not religious at all, but my parents are. To respect them, I asked my dad if he had any friends who would be interested in marrying us. He connected us with a friend of his who is a pastor. When I got the response from his friend I realized that he NOT our guy! He wanted counseling, which didn't bother me, but the mandatory bible study did. We ended up going with a retired reverend who had no stipulations.

laceybird · March 2014

Our officiant is going to be the pastor of our church, who is also a good friend of FI's. The only stipulation that he gave us was that we attend pre-marital counselling with him about 2 weeks prior to the wedding. FI and I were more than willing to oblige, and that was really our only stipulation.

Now, when FI and I moved in together at the beginning of the year, he was asked to step down from his position on the Youth Board at our church, because the pastor felt it was not setting a good example for the younger crowd (we're talking 13-18-year-olds), but other than that, we haven't had any stipulations on our marriage with the exception of your typical counselling sessions.

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