Orthodox PPD

moosette113 · April 2014

@phira, exactly. We already planned on arriving in plenty of time for the chuppah ceremony, but we were not planning on attending the Kabbalat Panim. Since that will also be segregated by gender, I wasn't comfortable experiencing one for the first time without H or someone else I knew to guide me through the traditions. I'm sure it would be really interesting experience, but it's not one I'm willing to have without someone to help me through it.

MuppetOverlord · April 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

HisGirlFriday13 said:

I'm confused about the out-of-state requirements they didn't research. Orthodox Jewish weddings are legally binding, so what out of state requirements are they missing? Something doesn't make sense here. That being said, given the very judgey tone of your post, I think you should change your RSVP to 'no' not because of the PPD (which it sounds like this sort of is and sort of isn't) but because you're being closed-minded, bigoted, and judegemental about their religion and their religious choices, which are NONE of your business. You don't have to like what their religion dictates, but you have to either go and accept it or stay home as a way or not accepting it. Snarking about it isn't cool.

Really?

I don't find the OP stating her opinion that she finds certain aspects of their religion to be offensive as her being anything that you are describing. And I don't think she was being snarky at all. She stated an opinion, that's it.

People are allowed to have opinions about other religions, and disagree with other religions, and can even share those opinions without being close minded or bigoted.

OMG thank you for saying this

I found that post and those who liked it to be pretty close-minded and judgmental.

It is okay to have and express dissenting opinions on religions. She is in no way being disrespectful.

blabla89 · April 2014

I'll admit I read the original post as being a bit judgmental. But now, understanding that OP knows for a fact that she will be separated from her H, won't know anyone else there, and isn't familiar with the customs, I can see why she would be uncomfortable. But the first post read more like an "I don't wanna" than a question based on legitimate concerns.

PrettyGirlLost · April 2014

lalalaurita said:

I'll admit I read the original post as being a bit judgmental. But now, understanding that OP knows for a fact that she will be separated from her H, won't know anyone else there, and isn't familiar with the customs, I can see why she would be uncomfortable. But the first post read more like an "I don't wanna" than a question based on legitimate concerns.

People are naturally judgmental about things they find personally offensive.

I think people are confusing "judgmental" in this thread with "intolerant." And being tolerant of a religion does not mean that you give it's practice a pass in its entirety and can't take offense to certain aspects.

blabla89 · April 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

lalalaurita said:

I'll admit I read the original post as being a bit judgmental. But now, understanding that OP knows for a fact that she will be separated from her H, won't know anyone else there, and isn't familiar with the customs, I can see why she would be uncomfortable. But the first post read more like an "I don't wanna" than a question based on legitimate concerns.

People are naturally judgmental about things they find personally offensive.

I think people are confusing "judgmental" in this thread with "intolerant." And being tolerant of a religion does not mean that you give it's practice a pass in its entirety and can't take offense to certain aspects.

I agree. And I get it - to some people (myself included) the idea that women should be separated because of a biological imperative is offensive. What I found judgmental was the statement that Orthodox wedding don't have a "real reception" and the party is "specifically to honor and entertain the newly married couple."

MuppetOverlord · April 2014

I'm grossed out that people keep liking that post, particularly with the additional in-depth explanation and information.

JellyBean52513 · April 2014

There are plenty of religious customs around the world that I find to be extremely offensive and I wouldn't want to be associated with anyone who strongly believed them. Case in point: the anniversary of the Boston Marathon bombings is tomorrow (it was technically today, one year ago) and those people did what they did because they felt charged by their higher power to do so. In other religions, women are suppressed by far worse practices than not being able to dance with their partner at a wedding.

If it makes me an asshole not to be able to befriend someone who believes his wife is a second-class citizen, or that anyone who worships a different deity deserves to be killed....well, I don't quite care. I guess I'm an asshole then.

MuppetOverlord · April 2014

And she doesn't even want to befriend these people, she just wants to excuse herself from the reception that makes her feel uncomfortable.

moosette113 · April 2014

lalalaurita said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

lalalaurita said:

I'll admit I read the original post as being a bit judgmental. But now, understanding that OP knows for a fact that she will be separated from her H, won't know anyone else there, and isn't familiar with the customs, I can see why she would be uncomfortable. But the first post read more like an "I don't wanna" than a question based on legitimate concerns.

People are naturally judgmental about things they find personally offensive.

I think people are confusing "judgmental" in this thread with "intolerant." And being tolerant of a religion does not mean that you give it's practice a pass in its entirety and can't take offense to certain aspects.

I agree. And I get it - to some people (myself included) the idea that women should be separated because of a biological imperative is offensive. What I found judgmental was the statement that Orthodox wedding don't have a "real reception" and the party is "specifically to honor and entertain the newly married couple."

Sorry- I definitely should have elaborated more on that "real reception" comment and chosen better wording. It's a mitzvah to make the bride and groom happy so wedding guests are encouraged serve and perform for the bride and groom at the party following the chuppah ceremony, and for 7 days following the wedding. I know for a fact that certain guests are preparing skits now. You are supposed to treat the new husband and wife like a literal king and queen. Guests are definitely fed after the wedding, but in my mind, the added request of entertaining the newly married couple departs from proper hosting etiquette, and doesn't necessarily qualify as a "reception". But it's definitely a cultural thing, and I'm not entirely sure if I would be chastised for not participating.

@MuppetOverlord- it's ok that people thought/still think I was being intolerant. By framing everything in the light of me not agreeing with certain aspects of Orthodox Judaism, I set myself up for it. I focused too heavily on certain things and omitted some pertinent information. Most of the judgey tone was stemming from my annoyance that the couple couldn't be bothered to properly research wedding license requirements, and it definitely seeped into the rest of the post.

JellyBean52513 · April 2014

@moosette113 I may be in the minority here, but I really don't think you need to apologize. You clearly feel a certain way that doesn't align with the beliefs & practices of a particular religion, and those feelings are just as much as a part of who you are as the religious beliefs are a part of those who practice that faith. Everybody's saying we shouldn't judge a particular faith, and I don't think we should judge someone's opposition to that faith.

I wouldn't want to spend my evening at a wedding that incorporated religious practices such as separating my SO from me for the entire night. That's their religion, not mine, and I don't wish to participate in something that would make me uncomfortable... and it shouldn't be wrong for me to express that, either.

Jen4948 · April 2014

moosette113 said:

phira said:

I think that we need to make a distinction between, "I don't mind what you do, but I don't want to participate," and, "YOU'RE WRONG STOP IT."

I'm uncomfortable with a lot of Orthodox traditions and beliefs, which is one major reason I'm not Orthodox. I've chosen not to participate in Orthodox events because I don't want to be separated from a boyfriend. You can opt out without being judgy-mcjudgerpants.

That said, at this point, it really sounds like the OP committed to going, however unhappily, and is only changing her mind now because the couple will be legally wed ahead of time. Essentially, this whole question could have been boiled down to, "I RSVPed for a wedding I wasn't all that on board about going to for reasons, and now I just found out it'll be a PPD because they didn't research the license requirements properly. Is it rude to change my RSVP?"

In which case:

- if the RSVP deadline has passed, yes.
- if the RSVP deadling hasn't passed, no, but I recommend coming up with a good reason and coming up with plans so that you're actually busy.
- it's honestly really something that you need to decide with your partner.

Thanks, phira. In retrospect, including my previous hesitations to attending the wedding was unnecessary and it does ultimately boil down to, as you eloquently put it, the first bolded.

We did commit to attending, and although the RSVP date has not passed, H and I have decided that we will still attend and be happy for the couple, because despite my reservations about their feelings towards women and their poor planning, they are still incredibly nice people. I can be friendly without being their friends.

Thank you for making a distinction between not wanting to go because of their PPD and because of their religious beliefs. I wish you had done that in your OP, because I agree that you are allowed to not like those beliefs without coming off as judgmental of them. I don't like them either, personally. The text of that post suggested a mindset that is different from the one in this post.

ladyamanuet · April 2014

I think that while the first post certainly came off as intolerant, once there was clarification it was clear OP was merely passing judgement based on her own beliefs, which is fine. Like I said before, FH and I are not Orthodox for a reason - I feel the same way OP does about it being oppression, and I had plenty of my own grumblings before FBIL's wedding (I still grumble - I am going to marry his brother and he still can't even shake my hand because I am not his mother or his wife... grr. But that's a vent for another day, in a different place....)

Now that the intolerance vs judgmental argument is out of the way, @moosette113 while I get your frustrations with them not properly researching, it is not a deliberate PPD, so I think the side-eying should be less than for an actual PPD.

Also, if they are fully hosting food and drink (which they should be, as it is part of the culture), your assertion that it is not proper reception hosting etiquette for the guests to "perform" for the B&G and treat them like a king and queen, is, in my opinion, wrong. Isn't that how most receptions are anyway? Aren't speeches given by MOH, BM, and parents, in essence, a "performance" for the B&G (and guests)? Aren't dais tables and sweetheart tables in their own way establishing a "king and queen" like presence? Just because their culture provides a little more attention to the B&G at the reception does not mean it is not a proper reception or that the guests are not being hosted properly. If they are not providing food and drink AND expect to be treated like a king and queen - that is a different story.

PrettyGirlLost · April 2014

ladyamanuet said:

I think that while the first post certainly came off as intolerant, once there was clarification it was clear OP was merely passing judgement based on her own beliefs, which is fine. Like I said before, FH and I are not Orthodox for a reason - I feel the same way OP does about it being oppression, and I had plenty of my own grumblings before FBIL's wedding (I still grumble - I am going to marry his brother and he still can't even shake my hand because I am not his mother or his wife... grr. But that's a vent for another day, in a different place....)

Now that the intolerance vs judgmental argument is out of the way, @moosette113 while I get your frustrations with them not properly researching, it is not a deliberate PPD, so I think the side-eying should be less than for an actual PPD.

Also, if they are fully hosting food and drink (which they should be, as it is part of the culture), your assertion that it is not proper reception hosting etiquette for the guests to "perform" for the B&G and treat them like a king and queen, is, in my opinion, wrong. Isn't that how most receptions are anyway? Aren't speeches given by MOH, BM, and parents, in essence, a "performance" for the B&G (and guests)? Aren't dais tables and sweetheart tables in their own way establishing a "king and queen" like presence? Just because their culture provides a little more attention to the B&G at the reception does not mean it is not a proper reception or that the guests are not being hosted properly. If they are not providing food and drink AND expect to be treated like a king and queen - that is a different story.

No, it didn't. One person read the OP as bigoted and intolerant, posted a comment to that effect, and then 25 other people jumped on the bandwagon.

I read nothing intolerant into the OP. It was clear that the OP's comments were based on her own beliefs- that's the source of all of our comments ><

Seems like once people discovered the OP was Jewish herself. . . well, then she was allowed to disagree with Orthodox Jewish practices and beliefs.

rach89 · April 2014

@moosette113 - I understand why you may feel uncomfortable with being separate from the one person you know throughout the entirety of the ceremony and, possibly, the reception. I also agree with you about the separation of sexes as not to my preference or taste. I'm Jewish as well and I know the elaborate king and queen treatment for the bride and groom is typical for a Jewish wedding, esp an Orthodox one.

It seems like your conflict is in which tradition/culture is taking the highest priority for the event.

In general, with American weddings, the reception is to thank the guests for their presence at the wedding ceremony. In Judaism, in the strictest sense as in this case, the guests celebrate the bride and groom by making them king and queen for a day and that includes (hopefully) funny skits, as you mentioned. This is the way they choose to celebrate and there can be a lot of joy in this. It seems like you favor the American tradition and thats ok. Neither is wrong, but they are very different. You don't have to agree with it, to celebrate someone else's day.

Everytime I go to an Orthodox service or celebration, I have to constantly remind myself that: (1) this is the way they choose to celebrate, (2) they kindly invited me to their event/I sought it out, in the case of attending services overseas, and (3) I made conscious choice to be there so it's up to me to be a good guest and not distract from the celebration.

It's hard because I don't agree and obviously live my life differently, but I just generally keep my mouth shut. You know, when in Rome, etc. I think you should go because your partner wants to go and you have already RSVP'ed and it would make him happy for you both to go. Generally, I have found while attending Orthodox events and services around the world (because thats mostly what exists outside the US) that the women are very friendly and welcoming.

ladyamanuet · April 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

No, it didn't. One person read the OP as bigoted and intolerant, posted a comment to that effect, and then 25 other people jumped on the bandwagon.

I read nothing intolerant into the OP. It was clear that the OP's comments were based on her own beliefs- that's the source of all of our comments ><

Seems like once people discovered the OP was Jewish herself. . . well, then she was allowed to disagree with Orthodox Jewish practices and beliefs.

It's great that you didn't - but as we should always remind ourselves - tone doesn't translate. The way she worded the original post, it sounded as though she didn't want to deal with their beliefs even though her H really wanted to attend. That comes off as intolerance, not simply disagreeing with their beliefs.

And she isn't Jewish - her H is. She said she kind of identifies as Jewish because of that. But that revelation isn't what changed the other posters' opinions. It was her further explanation that was clearer, with better tone, and less judgement. There is a reason being judgmental sometimes comes off as being intolerant - because when you are in full judgy-judge mode you are less patient with things the person/people you are judging is/are doing. We are guilty of that - doesn't mean we are actually intolerant, but usually there is more context (e.g. the people you are speaking to you know you) so it doesn't come off that way. All posters had here was her initial post, which, because of the way she worded her criticisms in relation to their beliefs, can be read as being intolerant.

And in looking back, it looks like most people used judgmental and not intolerant. Which she was being - judgmental. Which, as many said (including myself, since I was full of judgy-judgment against FBIL in my last post), is fine for her to do. But it is not fine to do while at the wedding, so if she cannot hide her judgment, it would be inappropriate for her to attend.

Not sure why I am defending other people. I didn't use intolerant until that second post, and it would have been more accurate to say that I could certainly see why some saw it as intolerance. That was poor writing on my part.

Do I think people should have jumped down OP's throat and called for lashings to teach her tolerance? No. I was merely stating that I understood why some thought it came off as intolerant rather than just judgmental, but it was clear from her next postings that it was more based on her beliefs and lack of knowledge of the complete customs than anything else. And the (understandable) frustration at their lack of planning when her H had told them in advance the waiting period in the state.

Edited to cut down quote

ladyamanuet · April 2014

@prettygirllost and @muppetoverlord, that was my incredibly loquacious self long-windedly telling you I agree that she was not being intolerant, and that once that was made abundantly clear by further postings people should have stopped liking the original post that called her intolerant and stopped saying it. I just wanted to point out why the original post could come off to some as intolerant. I think it is awesome you didn't see it that way - but if I remember correctly you are both on the boards a lot so you are probably better at "translating tone" than most.

PrettyGirlLost · April 2014

ladyamanuet said:

@prettygirllost and @muppetoverlord, that was my incredibly loquacious self long-windedly telling you I agree that she was not being intolerant, and that once that was made abundantly clear by further postings people should have stopped liking the original post that called her intolerant and stopped saying it. I just wanted to point out why the original post could come off to some as intolerant. I think it is awesome you didn't see it that way - but if I remember correctly you are both on the boards a lot so you are probably better at "translating tone" than most.

Nice! I haven't seen that word since the SATs GRE's :-)

ladyamanuet · April 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

Nice! I haven't seen that word since the SATs GRE's :-)

I was an English major... I find I cannot help myself at times. There really should be a 12-step program for getting off the standardized testing vocab word usage

Inkdancer · April 2014

ladyamanuet said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

Nice! I haven't seen that word since the SATs GRE's :-)

I was an English major... I find I cannot help myself at times. There really should be a 12-step program for getting off the standardized testing vocab word usage

Banish the thought! Embrace your garrulous tendencies, and elevate the level of discourse with your resplendent (if protracted) vocabulary.

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