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Justification of a PPD because they are Catholic...[UPDATE IN COMMENTS]

AuroraRose41AuroraRose41 member
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edited May 2014 in Chit Chat
My boyfriend's mother posted a status on Facebook asking if anyone actually cared about Kim and Kanye's wedding. I had a very thoughtful response, and one of her friends (who BF doesn't know) responded to me trying to justify PPD's because she is Catholic. Could you ladies please help me come up with a reasonable and non-prejudiced way of responding to her? I am not very religious (I would say that I am an agnostic theist), but know that many of you ladies are Catholic and against PPD's, and I wanted your take on this.

My comment: "I hate both of them as it is, because neither of them are good role models for the kids/teens/etc. who listen to his music and watch her show. But I really dislike the fact that they were legally married in the U.S. before they had this fake wedding in France/Florence/wherever. They are basically saying that the legal aspect doesn't matter by doing this. It is a slap in the face to anyone who currently doesn't have the legal right to be married. I also wanted to add that it is insulting to anyone who only had a ceremony in a courthouse/eloped, as that marriage is no less valid then a marriage with a huge party."

Her response: "I really wanted a catholic wedding with all of my family however practically speaking my husband and I couldn't wait to legally be married due to insurance. So we did the JP and a year later had what we consider our actual wedding the way we wanted. Granted our situation was not the same as theirs, but we did what we needed to do at the time. I'm sorry you can't understand." (I definitely feel like being snarky and responding with, "Well, I'm sorry that YOU can't understand how ignorant you sound."...but I would rather have a thoughtful "kill them with kindness" type of response.)

And she later added: "I would never consider a court house wedding less valid, but it was important to us because of our religion and we do place more value on our second ceremony because of that."

I haven't responded yet, for fear of coming off as against her religion. I 100% support the fact that everyone has a right to their own beliefs, and I do not judge, but as someone who was never brought up Catholic, I do not know the best way to respond without coming off as against Catholicism/her religion. Anyways, thoughts?

P.S. At least I got to explain why this infuriated me to BF, and he understood why they are terrible ideas. Especially since one of his friends recently had a JOP ceremony on a whim after being engaged for years, and I explained how wrong it was that these fake weddings basically say that his friend's wedding wasn't valid.

ETF: Holy wall of text! TK is eating my paragraphs, try to bear with me as I attempt to fix it.Think I got it fixed now :).

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Re: Justification of a PPD because they are Catholic...[UPDATE IN COMMENTS]

  • chibiyuichibiyui member
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    Everything I've ever read on here says they can apply for a convalidation, but no re do wedding. Basically, you should tell her to talk to her priest.
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  • CMGragainCMGragain member
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    For Catholics, the ONLY marriage that is recognized by the church is a sacramental marriage, held within the church.  If a Catholic is married any other way, including non-Catholic churches, they are barred from taking communion at Mass.  This is a very big deal to Catholics.
    It is possible to get permission for a convalidation of marriage, which means the church now recognizes the marriage, but this is not easy to get.  It is not a second wedding.  I would ask how they got permission from the priest to do this.
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  • vk2204vk2204 member
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    I wouldn't say she is saying because she is Catholic she was allowed a PPD, she is just using religion as an excuse - as a lot of people do it seems.

    But like PP's said if you are already married you can't have a fake Catholic ceremony. I wonder how they got around that one...

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  • JennyColadaJennyColada member
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    I will never understand the mind frame of people getting married for the benefits.

    Isn't that fraud? I mean, I guess not, since you're planning on marrying anyway, but still, how do people feel comfortable with that?

    As someone who has a (thankfully, not quite yet) serious disease that will require tens of thousands of dollars in treatment, I would NEVER marry my partner "just for the benefits" and then try to negate that by having a re-do. I'd feel incredibly insulted if my partner ever desired such and very let down as a mother if my child felt this was right.
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  • PennyBlossom2311PennyBlossom2311 member
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    I just don't get this at all. It's one of my peeves when someone says to me that the JOP wasn't their real wedding. (not even getting into all that, it's too early and I haven't quite finished my coffee) But, If the religious cerremony, is the most important part, then why was that not done first? I have had a few friends who have gotten married in foreign countries and then came back to have a JOP (or maybe not, somehting about the legality of the marriage) or something like it with just the two of them and a witness. I don't find that part as rude or a lie, but I cannot stand when I get an invitaiton and I think to myself "Hey weren't you two married last year? I'm pretty sure you were, I was there...Not going to be a part of these redo shenanigans"
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  • SapphireCounselorSapphireCounselor member
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    I absolutely agree that a lot of ppd's are side-eye worthy for all the reasons we talk about on these boards. That said I have a few ppl in my life that have done them and I have said nothing to them about it...why? Because I know that I am not going to change their mind regardless of what I say. We would end up having a conversation very similar to op's and I just don't want to go there. And really, unless they ask for my opinion it just isn't my place to comment. All I can do is decline if I am that annoyed. Now the ppd brides who come on here are fair game because they are asking for opinions.
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  • mysticlmysticl member
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    JennyColada said:
    I will never understand the mind frame of people getting married for the benefits. Isn't that fraud? I mean, I guess not, since you're planning on marrying anyway, but still, how do people feel comfortable with that? As someone who has a (thankfully, not quite yet) serious disease that will require tens of thousands of dollars in treatment, I would NEVER marry my partner "just for the benefits" and then try to negate that by having a re-do. I'd feel incredibly insulted if my partner ever desired such and very let down as a mother if my child felt this was right.
    Legally it is not fraud because the couple is legally married.  That is the requirement to receive spousal benefits.  Also, these couples aren't marrying for the sole purpose of the spouse receiving benefits, they are just scheduling it so that the spouse can receive those benefits sooner rather than later.  

    The timing of our wedding was based on me needing healthcare, DH's deployment schedule, and DH's pending transfer.  It was either get married in 6 months or wait over a year.  We opted for 6 months.  Had a ceremony in the base chapel and a very lovely reception at one of the venues on base.  
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  • ladyamanuetladyamanuet member
    Eighth Anniversary 500 Love Its 100 Comments First Answer
    OP, what PPs have said is correct - you cannot have a Catholic wedding if you are already legally married. You can apply for a convalidation - but again, as other PPs have said, this is not easy to get. It really sounds to me, based on the limited information she's provided, that she LIED to her church which is even more crappy than the PPD. @HisGirlFriday13 will probably have a better response to her than I will, since my response would be to call her out on the lie and not be nice about her crappy decision at all. But that's me =D
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  • ladyamanuetladyamanuet member
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    OP, if you don't want to be blatantly snarky, I would use HisGirl's info and pose everything as a question, to turn it around on her for being a selfish ass. 

    "I guess I'm confused, SelfishBride, as to how you could have a wedding in the church a year after you were married? Not only can one who is wed not be wed again (unless they are again single and wedding a different person), but the Catholic church will not wed someone who is legally wed.  Did you mean you had a convalidation? If so, how did you get permission from the church to act as though it was a wedding, since that is usually frowned upon? Based on what little info you provided, I am confused as to how you could be married for a year and then have a wedding in a church."

    Since I don't mind being snarky, I would also say "Do you truly not see that pretending you were not really married, when you were in fact married and reaping the benefits of said marriage, is hugely disrespectful to the sanctity of marriage? If you don't, then I truly pity you for not understanding that the institution of marriage is about more than benefits and a party with a big dress."  But that's just me. 
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  • LizzieyounceLizzieyounce member
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    edited May 2014
    ladyamanuet said:
    OP, what PPs have said is correct - you cannot have a Catholic wedding if you are already legally married. You can apply for a convalidation - but again, as other PPs have said, this is not easy to get. It really sounds to me, based on the limited information she's provided, that she LIED to her church which is even more crappy than the PPD. @HisGirlFriday13 will probably have a better response to her than I will, since my response would be to call her out on the lie and not be nice about her crappy decision at all. But that's me =D
    Well, that's all going to come out in the wash anyway, since in most areas of the country, the officiant must sign the marriage license.  How are they going to manage that aspect without having to come clean to the priest?  There won't be a wedding mass, that's for sure.  Or there shouldn't be.




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  • ladyamanuetladyamanuet member
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    Lizzieyounce said:
    Well, that's all going to come out in the wash anyway, since in most areas of the country, the officiant must sign the marriage license.  How are they going to manage that aspect without having to come clean to the priest?  There won't be a wedding mass, that's for sure.  Or there shouldn't be.


    According to her comment on FB, she already did this - she did it a year after her wedding.  She didn't say planning, if I read correctly, she said that's what they already did. I don't see how she could have without lying to the church and lying to all her guests
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  • AuroraRose41AuroraRose41 member
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    @ladyamanuet, you are correct. This woman is already married, both legally and in the Catholic Church. She was insulted that I don't like the fact that Kim and Kanye had a PPD, because she did the same thing.

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  • AuroraRose41AuroraRose41 member
    Ninth Anniversary 1000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper
    And @hisgirlfriday13 and @ladyamanuet, I think I am going to start getting progressively bitchier with this. I like to start out nice and then go from there >:). I like both of your suggestions, a lot. I knew you ladies could help with this!

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  • LizzieyounceLizzieyounce member
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    ladyamanuet said:
    Lizzieyounce said:
    Well, that's all going to come out in the wash anyway, since in most areas of the country, the officiant must sign the marriage license.  How are they going to manage that aspect without having to come clean to the priest?  There won't be a wedding mass, that's for sure.  Or there shouldn't be.


    According to her comment on FB, she already did this - she did it a year after her wedding.  She didn't say planning, if I read correctly, she said that's what they already did. I don't see how she could have without lying to the church and lying to all her guests
    Oops, missed the already done part.  I don't get how the priest didn't catch it when it came to a license?  Maybe it was a con validation.
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  • ladyamanuetladyamanuet member
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    @aurorarose - check out my comment in the PPD sticky about choices - might give you some material. (Comment is here: http://forums.theknot.com/discussion/comment/7254674/#Comment_7254674) She behaved like a selfish child - not an adult prepared for a marriage and all it entails.

    She is ABSOLUTELY saying JoP weddings aren't good enough and valuing a party over the marriage.  I feel bad for her spouse.  And family and friends that were LIED to. 
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  • ladyamanuetladyamanuet member
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    I am also SHOCKED that a priest went along with the lie. 
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  • ladyamanuetladyamanuet member
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    "Then someone else jumped in defending this woman (not her husband), by defining what matrimony means in the Catholic Church, and telling me that I was trying to argue both sides and there was no argument"

    I'm curious how the definition of marriage in the Catholic Church means there is no argument here. I would tell that person while they may not have been WED in the catholic church, the couple was still MARRIED and could not then be WED at a later date. All that could happen is a convalidation - which is not a wedding.  That convalidation does make their union recognized by the church, but part of that is recognizing an EXISTING union. So his definition provides no argument....

    I continue to be in disbelief that a priest okayed all this....
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  • AuroraRose41AuroraRose41 member
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    So, I think I won. I echoed many of your responses.

    TL;DR: The woman resorted to calling me an a-hole for judging her "special day" and getting married the way she wanted, and decided to leave the conversation. The man resorted to ad hominem attacks on me for being "holier than thou and a bad Catholic." after I said that she lied to her family and friends, and lying is wrong and also is forbidden in the Holy Commandments. I did respond that I didn't need to be Catholic to know how marriage works in the Catholic Church, and was using the teachings that Catholics follow to make my point.

    But, for your entertainment, here is the conversation (I also want to give a shout out to @hisgirl for her wonderful response that I copied parts of in this). This was after my last comment about having her take a step back and ask why she chose to lie to her closest family and friends:

    Her: "Because it was non of their business and no need for them to know. And as far as we were concerned this was our real wedding day, again the day we were taking our vows before our family, our friends and God. And no one including you has the right to take that away from us because you feel like it's a slap in the face. I honestly think the only people who would ever feel that way would be couples who hold regrets about their own wedding, which is their issue not anyone else's!"

    Him: "For much of the Church's history, no specific ritual was prescribed for celebrating a marriage: "Marriage vows did not have to be exchanged in a church, nor was a priest's presence required"."

    Me: "(at him), this is my point. If that is historically true, then why are vows said in front of a JP not considered to be a real marriage? And if your religion does dictate marrying in a church, then have the priest handle the legal part too."

    Him: "You either want to argue what is marriage or what is marriage in the eyes of the church. Pick a point...Gay marriage (a slap in the face of anyone who doesn't have the legal right to marry); is not valid in the eyes of the Catholic church; not even with dispensation; yet you attempt to interject that into your argument. Last thought...."when vows are said in front of a JP not considered to be a real marriage"....says who?"

    Me: "(to her), no one can take away what you did. But they can disagree with your choice. Yes, you made a choice as an adult, and there were many options to have a both legal and religious ceremony quickly. You chose not to. I understand the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony being paramount in importance to Catholics, but it sounds to me that the civil benefits of marriage, conferred by the state, were more important than the Sacrament conferred by the Church. Otherwise, you would have found a way to do it at the same time. However, you refused to acknowledge that you were married by the JP, even though you reaped the benefits." (thanks @hisgirl for this one!)

    Him:" Ahh finally; you disagree with her choices therefore they are wrong."

    Me: "Most people agree that lying is wrong.....even the Commandments forbid it."

    Her: "I'm not arguing that they aren't real or that to some are just as special. For US, it was a legal arrangement we had to do so I could be added to my husbands benefits and change my status at work. It was not how we wanted to do it. For us personally we do not celebrate our day in court. I have participated in many weddings for friends and family and view their marriages just as personal and and special as ours. And we did not lie. Even our priest said, this was our wedding day! If anyone asked we would tell them the same thing, we were legally married on 4/15 but our wedding day is celebrated on 5/28!"


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  • JennyColadaJennyColada member
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    AuroraRose41 said:

    Her: "...If anyone asked we would tell them the same thing, we were legally married on 4/15 but our wedding day is celebrated on 5/28!"

    Did she take a large blow to the head? Because I don't see how anyone in their right mind can say this with a straight face.
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  • AuroraRose41AuroraRose41 member
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    edited May 2014

    Continued because I ran out of character space:

    Me: "You didn't tell the truth to all of your friends and family before the religious ceremony. How is that not lying?"

    Him: "Wow, to be holier than thou. You live your life as a Catholic? This "argument" is going to digress rapidly if that's the case."

    Her: "It was no ones business, and the day we choose to celebrate is ours to choose. You are the first person I've ever come across who seems to have an issue with this??? Again I repeat, whatever your opinion maybe, my option is that it takes a true a hole to belittle what someone views as their special day, which ironically you brought up because people like me are slapping others in the face! Again, it wasn't what we wanted, but I would NEVER tell someone they were any less married than my husband and I!"

    (I wish some of you were friends with my BF's mother on Facebook by this point; I could have used some back up here.)

    Me: "I don't have to be a Catholic to know this information about how the Catholic Church works. And I am using the teachings that Catholics supposedly follow to argue why this is not the right thing to do."

    Her: "(BF's Mom), I'm sorry your fun post turned into this! But on one should be made to feel bad about how they choose to get married and what they view as their special day! I had to defend myself! I'll be leaving this conversation now!"

    ETF: TK is eating paragraphs again :(


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  • AuroraRose41AuroraRose41 member
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    I also totally just linked the PPD FAQ thread, and commented that "There are many others who share my feelings on this subject, as you can see from this link. Please see the FAQ. Also, your nearest and dearest probably won't ever tell you how you really made them feel by doing this." The guy is being stupid again by asking me why I am dragging this out and won't let it go. He also asked if I was even married. I just sent a one sentence response: "As for the first question, I could ask you the same thing." I haven't checked Facebook since, and i don't intend on responding to anymore of his comments, but I probably just pissed him off too >:).

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  • ladyamanuetladyamanuet member
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    @aurorarose41 - don't give yourself an aneurism over this! LOL.  I think you've said plenty to prove your point.  That's an important thing about arguing with fools on the internet - knowing when to back away for your own sanity!

    That one dude is a moron.... he just seems like he wants to argue and doesn't really know why or what he is arguing for.... 

    If I hear "it's my special day" one more time I might have an aneurism myself
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