Arresting Pregnant Moms On Drugs

offensivekitten2 · July 2014

MagicInk said:

offensivekitten2 said:

Holy shit, being kidnapped and cut open while you watch sounds like a horror movie. Why the hell is our nation even thinking about laws allowing that??

DA BABIES!!! Women is 'possed to have da babies and we gotta protect da babies. Even at the cost of the woman's emotional/physical safety or even her wants because da babies.

Also congrats on your impending baby!

Thanks! I'm actually keeping it a secret from RL peeps for exactly that reason. I am NOT going to deal well with people suddenly treating me like public property and telling me what to do.

MamaAlly89 · July 2014

MagicInk said:

Gerbertmcway said:

ashley8918 said:

I think it's disgusting.

As PPs have said, nobody wants to see a baby born addicted to drugs. It's terrible. But all this does is ensure that pregnant women who use do not seek out prenatal care. As damaging as drugs are to a fetus, when that is combined with lack of prenatal care, they have NO chance.

Because pregnant mothers who choose to do drugs usually give a giant fuck about prenatal care, right? Because they are so concerned with the health of their unborn child. What I think is terrible is that people think pregnant women should have the RIGHT to cause their children to be born addicted to drugs. Of course this law isn't going to fix everything, if anything, but I think some people have a really shitty attitude about women's rights vs children's rights to not be born addicted to drugs.

They might. An addiction isn't just waking up one day and going "Ya know what sounds good with my Fruit Loops? Meth. I think I'll do some meth today, who cares that I'm pregnant, I wanna get some meth, sounds tasty", that's not what pregnant women with a drug addiction are thinking.

It's an uncontrollable urge. They might want to control it. They might think they have it under control. But the addiction is a disease. Like cancer. It has taken over their bodies, their minds, it controls their every waking thought. They might want to get prenatal care, the might earnestly want their child, but they can't just put down the drugs because that isn't how a drug addiction works.

Read the story I posted above. That woman wanted children, she wanted to be a mom, but her addiction has so consumed her life, she had one child die and one child taken by the state, and she's still using. She uses the same way you or I breathe. We do it because we have to live. For her, her drug addiction feels the same way.

The law is a slippery slope. Lunch meat isn't safe during pregnancy. Sushi, caffeine, hot dogs I think, all on the things to avoid during pregnancy. All carry risks to the fetus. Would you be ok if we start jailing pregnant women for having a cup coffee? Eating Subway for lunch? Getting sushi with the girls? They do carry possible risks to the unborn child.

Sorry, but I think having a cup of coffee while pregnant and doing crack-cocaine while pregnant are two totally different things.

offensivekitten2 · July 2014

schramm2407 said:

MagicInk said:

Gerbertmcway said:

ashley8918 said:

I think it's disgusting.

As PPs have said, nobody wants to see a baby born addicted to drugs. It's terrible. But all this does is ensure that pregnant women who use do not seek out prenatal care. As damaging as drugs are to a fetus, when that is combined with lack of prenatal care, they have NO chance.

Because pregnant mothers who choose to do drugs usually give a giant fuck about prenatal care, right? Because they are so concerned with the health of their unborn child. What I think is terrible is that people think pregnant women should have the RIGHT to cause their children to be born addicted to drugs. Of course this law isn't going to fix everything, if anything, but I think some people have a really shitty attitude about women's rights vs children's rights to not be born addicted to drugs.

They might. An addiction isn't just waking up one day and going "Ya know what sounds good with my Fruit Loops? Meth. I think I'll do some meth today, who cares that I'm pregnant, I wanna get some meth, sounds tasty", that's not what pregnant women with a drug addiction are thinking.

It's an uncontrollable urge. They might want to control it. They might think they have it under control. But the addiction is a disease. Like cancer. It has taken over their bodies, their minds, it controls their every waking thought. They might want to get prenatal care, the might earnestly want their child, but they can't just put down the drugs because that isn't how a drug addiction works.

Read the story I posted above. That woman wanted children, she wanted to be a mom, but her addiction has so consumed her life, she had one child die and one child taken by the state, and she's still using. She uses the same way you or I breathe. We do it because we have to live. For her, her drug addiction feels the same way.

The law is a slippery slope. Lunch meat isn't safe during pregnancy. Sushi, caffeine, hot dogs I think, all on the things to avoid during pregnancy. All carry risks to the fetus. Would you be ok if we start jailing pregnant women for having a cup coffee? Eating Subway for lunch? Getting sushi with the girls? They do carry possible risks to the unborn child.

Sorry, but I think having a cup of coffee while pregnant and doing crack-cocaine while pregnant are two totally different things.

You think so, but not everyone does. I could show you dozens of articles waxing eloquent about how hot dogs = fetal murder. You start passing laws singling out what pregnant women can put in their bodies, then you set precedence for other laws.

Also, there ALREADY ARE laws against drug use. This is just misogynistic bullshit. If this becomes popular, all people have to do is say 'but the babies!!!!' to justify the most random shit.

hellosweetie1015 · July 2014

Gerbertmcway said:

ashley8918 said:

I think it's disgusting.

As PPs have said, nobody wants to see a baby born addicted to drugs. It's terrible. But all this does is ensure that pregnant women who use do not seek out prenatal care. As damaging as drugs are to a fetus, when that is combined with lack of prenatal care, they have NO chance.

Because pregnant mothers who choose to do drugs usually give a giant fuck about prenatal care, right? Because they are so concerned with the health of their unborn child. What I think is terrible is that people think pregnant women should have the RIGHT to cause their children to be born addicted to drugs. Of course this law isn't going to fix everything, if anything, but I think some people have a really shitty attitude about women's rights vs children's rights to not be born addicted to drugs.

Whoa. Pump the brakes. Nobody is arguing that pregnant women have the RIGHT to cause their children to be born addicted to drugs. BUT they have the right to prenatal care and possible prevention of that infant being born addicted. And if it fixes ANYTHING I'll be floored. I would be much less surprised to see the rate of miscarriages and stillbirths skyrocket, because these women are getting NO care.

Also - isn't taking drugs such as meth ALREADY illegal? What did they do, make it even MORE illegal? Is that like making a sin MORE a sin? Cus I'm pretty sure a sin's a sin, and illegal is still illegal, whether it's speeding or murder.... so I'm not seeing it being more illegal as a deterrent from committing the crime. I'm just seeing it making people less likely to seek help.

KatieinBkln · July 2014

schramm2407 said:

MagicInk said:

Gerbertmcway said:

ashley8918 said:

I think it's disgusting.

As PPs have said, nobody wants to see a baby born addicted to drugs. It's terrible. But all this does is ensure that pregnant women who use do not seek out prenatal care. As damaging as drugs are to a fetus, when that is combined with lack of prenatal care, they have NO chance.

Because pregnant mothers who choose to do drugs usually give a giant fuck about prenatal care, right? Because they are so concerned with the health of their unborn child. What I think is terrible is that people think pregnant women should have the RIGHT to cause their children to be born addicted to drugs. Of course this law isn't going to fix everything, if anything, but I think some people have a really shitty attitude about women's rights vs children's rights to not be born addicted to drugs.

They might. An addiction isn't just waking up one day and going "Ya know what sounds good with my Fruit Loops? Meth. I think I'll do some meth today, who cares that I'm pregnant, I wanna get some meth, sounds tasty", that's not what pregnant women with a drug addiction are thinking.

It's an uncontrollable urge. They might want to control it. They might think they have it under control. But the addiction is a disease. Like cancer. It has taken over their bodies, their minds, it controls their every waking thought. They might want to get prenatal care, the might earnestly want their child, but they can't just put down the drugs because that isn't how a drug addiction works.

Read the story I posted above. That woman wanted children, she wanted to be a mom, but her addiction has so consumed her life, she had one child die and one child taken by the state, and she's still using. She uses the same way you or I breathe. We do it because we have to live. For her, her drug addiction feels the same way.

The law is a slippery slope. Lunch meat isn't safe during pregnancy. Sushi, caffeine, hot dogs I think, all on the things to avoid during pregnancy. All carry risks to the fetus. Would you be ok if we start jailing pregnant women for having a cup coffee? Eating Subway for lunch? Getting sushi with the girls? They do carry possible risks to the unborn child.

Sorry, but I think having a cup of coffee while pregnant and doing crack-cocaine while pregnant are two totally different things.

I mean, so do I. So do most reasonable people, I would think. But the problem is that when laws like this go into effect, they set a legal precedent for some (unreasonable) person to put some poor coffee-drinking pregnant woman through hell in the future. I can absolutely imagine an ugly custody battle invoking just such a precedent actually. That's the scary part.

The other reason I hate this kind of law is that it's pure lip service. Arresting an unborn baby's pregnant mother does NOTHING for that fetus, but it makes people feel awfully self-righteous about saying they care about the unborn baby. Like, the poor kid is still in trouble, but now mom's in prison, a place that is not lauded for its ability to treat inmates as patients in the first place, let alone a high-risk, difficult patient like a drug addict. It's just so damn ICKY.

ETF words

mysticl · July 2014

schramm2407 said:

MagicInk said:

Gerbertmcway said:

ashley8918 said:

I think it's disgusting.

As PPs have said, nobody wants to see a baby born addicted to drugs. It's terrible. But all this does is ensure that pregnant women who use do not seek out prenatal care. As damaging as drugs are to a fetus, when that is combined with lack of prenatal care, they have NO chance.

Because pregnant mothers who choose to do drugs usually give a giant fuck about prenatal care, right? Because they are so concerned with the health of their unborn child. What I think is terrible is that people think pregnant women should have the RIGHT to cause their children to be born addicted to drugs. Of course this law isn't going to fix everything, if anything, but I think some people have a really shitty attitude about women's rights vs children's rights to not be born addicted to drugs.

They might. An addiction isn't just waking up one day and going "Ya know what sounds good with my Fruit Loops? Meth. I think I'll do some meth today, who cares that I'm pregnant, I wanna get some meth, sounds tasty", that's not what pregnant women with a drug addiction are thinking.

It's an uncontrollable urge. They might want to control it. They might think they have it under control. But the addiction is a disease. Like cancer. It has taken over their bodies, their minds, it controls their every waking thought. They might want to get prenatal care, the might earnestly want their child, but they can't just put down the drugs because that isn't how a drug addiction works.

Read the story I posted above. That woman wanted children, she wanted to be a mom, but her addiction has so consumed her life, she had one child die and one child taken by the state, and she's still using. She uses the same way you or I breathe. We do it because we have to live. For her, her drug addiction feels the same way.

The law is a slippery slope. Lunch meat isn't safe during pregnancy. Sushi, caffeine, hot dogs I think, all on the things to avoid during pregnancy. All carry risks to the fetus. Would you be ok if we start jailing pregnant women for having a cup coffee? Eating Subway for lunch? Getting sushi with the girls? They do carry possible risks to the unborn child.

Sorry, but I think having a cup of coffee while pregnant and doing crack-cocaine while pregnant are two totally different things.

Caffeine may or may not contribute to miscarriage. It depends on which article you read. To be on the safe side pregnant women are advised to a least limit their intake during pregnancy. Maybe law makers decide that it does, so they make it illegal for pregnant women to have any. Or they charge women who have suffered a miscarriage with murder if they find out she had caffeine during the pregnancy. This is not a stretch there have been attempts to get laws passed to charge women with murder if they suffer a miscarriage and there is reason to believe that something they did contributed to it.

VulgarGirl · July 2014

schramm2407 said:

MagicInk said:

Gerbertmcway said:

ashley8918 said:

I think it's disgusting.

As PPs have said, nobody wants to see a baby born addicted to drugs. It's terrible. But all this does is ensure that pregnant women who use do not seek out prenatal care. As damaging as drugs are to a fetus, when that is combined with lack of prenatal care, they have NO chance.

Because pregnant mothers who choose to do drugs usually give a giant fuck about prenatal care, right? Because they are so concerned with the health of their unborn child. What I think is terrible is that people think pregnant women should have the RIGHT to cause their children to be born addicted to drugs. Of course this law isn't going to fix everything, if anything, but I think some people have a really shitty attitude about women's rights vs children's rights to not be born addicted to drugs.

They might. An addiction isn't just waking up one day and going "Ya know what sounds good with my Fruit Loops? Meth. I think I'll do some meth today, who cares that I'm pregnant, I wanna get some meth, sounds tasty", that's not what pregnant women with a drug addiction are thinking.

It's an uncontrollable urge. They might want to control it. They might think they have it under control. But the addiction is a disease. Like cancer. It has taken over their bodies, their minds, it controls their every waking thought. They might want to get prenatal care, the might earnestly want their child, but they can't just put down the drugs because that isn't how a drug addiction works.

Read the story I posted above. That woman wanted children, she wanted to be a mom, but her addiction has so consumed her life, she had one child die and one child taken by the state, and she's still using. She uses the same way you or I breathe. We do it because we have to live. For her, her drug addiction feels the same way.

The law is a slippery slope. Lunch meat isn't safe during pregnancy. Sushi, caffeine, hot dogs I think, all on the things to avoid during pregnancy. All carry risks to the fetus. Would you be ok if we start jailing pregnant women for having a cup coffee? Eating Subway for lunch? Getting sushi with the girls? They do carry possible risks to the unborn child.

Sorry, but I think having a cup of coffee while pregnant and doing crack-cocaine while pregnant are two totally different things.

My point was not that they're exactly the same, but they both carry risks to a fetus, and this law opens the door to the possiblity of saying "Well you're pregnant, you can't do anything that risks the fetus" which would include coffee. Risk is risk.

MamaAlly89 · July 2014

@MagicInk I see your point and agree that arresting these mothers isn't the right thing to do. I just feel so bad for all these babies who are forced to go through withdrawal and have no say in the matter!

ashley8918 · July 2014

Gerbertmcway said:

ashley8918 said:

I think it's disgusting.

As PPs have said, nobody wants to see a baby born addicted to drugs. It's terrible. But all this does is ensure that pregnant women who use do not seek out prenatal care. As damaging as drugs are to a fetus, when that is combined with lack of prenatal care, they have NO chance.

Because pregnant mothers who choose to do drugs usually give a giant fuck about prenatal care, right? Because they are so concerned with the health of their unborn child. What I think is terrible is that people think pregnant women should have the RIGHT to cause their children to be born addicted to drugs. Of course this law isn't going to fix everything, if anything, but I think some people have a really shitty attitude about women's rights vs children's rights to not be born addicted to drugs.

We've gone over this a few times here, but we are largely talking about addictions here, not recreational use. There comes a point where it ceases to be a choice. Furthermore, whether or not addicted pregnant women " give a giant fuck about prenatal care" is not really the point I was making. This law all but guarantees that the ones who do/would have given a fuck will take as far away from medical professionals as possible.

The bottom line is: This will not deter them from using while pregnant. There is already a legal deterrent against drugs. Making it "double illegal" for pregnant women isn't going to make a damn bit of difference on that front. What it will do is cause a whole lot more potential danger the the fetus/baby when these women decide not to get prenatal care, and give birth without any medical oversight so that they don't go to jail. It's the same thing that would happen if abortion was made illegal. It wouldn't stop happening, it would just happen in a terribly unsafe manner and people would die.

jdluvr06 · July 2014

Former addict here so maybe I can offer a different perspective here. Do I think that women should be arrested while pregnant because of drugs? Nope but I think they should be forced to seek treatment and if by the time the baby is born if there is no sign that the mother sought out said treatment and the baby's life is in danger because of the drug use then yes I feel like the mother should be arrested for endangering the life if another.

Sugargirl1019 · July 2014

I think the article was saying women giving birth to a baby that tests positive for drugs will be arrested, not all pregnant women will be arrested if on drugs if they show up for prenatal care. I think there's a timing difference. I think if anything, women will be educated at their prenatal appointments about the possibility of being arrested if their baby tests positive at birth. Then they can choose to seek help/rehab and then that would prevent them from being arrested for trying to do the right thing, regardless of how many times they slip before birth.

And who knows, there will probably be women that DO stop using for the rest of their pregnancy after finding out about this. Can't say everyone is an addict with no control. Some might be able to defeat it.

southernbelle0915 · July 2014

With this law, drug addicted pregnant women will avoid prenatal care. Even outside the issue that this is a major slippery slope for women's rights, I think this will end up being VERY expensive for others. I used to work for a health insurance company and I can tell you that women who don't get prenatal care often have much more expensive deliveries and babies that end up costing more.

mysticl · July 2014

Sugargirl1019 said:

I think the article was saying women giving birth to a baby that tests positive for drugs will be arrested, not all pregnant women will be arrested if on drugs if they show up for prenatal care. I think there's a timing difference. I think if anything, women will be educated at their prenatal appointments about the possibility of being arrested if their baby tests positive at birth. Then they can choose to seek help/rehab and then that would prevent them from being arrested for trying to do the right thing, regardless of how many times they slip before birth. And who knows, there will probably be women that DO stop using for the rest of their pregnancy after finding out about this. Can't say everyone is an addict with no control. Some might be able to defeat it.

Or they'll be arrested. Different state but it has happened, to a woman who tested clean. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/shackled-pregnant-wis-case-challenges-fetal-protection-law-f8C11457748

lyndausvi · July 2014

mysticl said:

Sugargirl1019 said:

I think the article was saying women giving birth to a baby that tests positive for drugs will be arrested, not all pregnant women will be arrested if on drugs if they show up for prenatal care. I think there's a timing difference. I think if anything, women will be educated at their prenatal appointments about the possibility of being arrested if their baby tests positive at birth. Then they can choose to seek help/rehab and then that would prevent them from being arrested for trying to do the right thing, regardless of how many times they slip before birth. And who knows, there will probably be women that DO stop using for the rest of their pregnancy after finding out about this. Can't say everyone is an addict with no control. Some might be able to defeat it.

Or they'll be arrested. Different state but it has happened, to a woman who tested clean. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/shackled-pregnant-wis-case-challenges-fetal-protection-law-f8C11457748

scary.

In her case she just didn't want to take a drug. Her results said she wasn't on percocets. I understand monitoring her to see if she slipped, but damn being arrested for not taking medication is messed up.

mysticl · July 2014

lyndausvi said:

mysticl said:

Sugargirl1019 said:

I think the article was saying women giving birth to a baby that tests positive for drugs will be arrested, not all pregnant women will be arrested if on drugs if they show up for prenatal care. I think there's a timing difference. I think if anything, women will be educated at their prenatal appointments about the possibility of being arrested if their baby tests positive at birth. Then they can choose to seek help/rehab and then that would prevent them from being arrested for trying to do the right thing, regardless of how many times they slip before birth. And who knows, there will probably be women that DO stop using for the rest of their pregnancy after finding out about this. Can't say everyone is an addict with no control. Some might be able to defeat it.

Or they'll be arrested. Different state but it has happened, to a woman who tested clean. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/shackled-pregnant-wis-case-challenges-fetal-protection-law-f8C11457748

scary.

In her case she just didn't want to take a drug. Her results said she wasn't on percocets. I understand monitoring her to see if she slipped, but damn being arrested for not taking medication is messed up.

Think about the repercussions it has for health care. Just about any medical history you give will ask about drug, alcohol, and tobacco use. This woman was honest about her history and it landed her in cuffs. How many women are going to lie because of things like this? Lying about your medical history can put your health at risk.

lyndausvi · July 2014

mysticl said:

lyndausvi said:

mysticl said:

Sugargirl1019 said:

I think the article was saying women giving birth to a baby that tests positive for drugs will be arrested, not all pregnant women will be arrested if on drugs if they show up for prenatal care. I think there's a timing difference. I think if anything, women will be educated at their prenatal appointments about the possibility of being arrested if their baby tests positive at birth. Then they can choose to seek help/rehab and then that would prevent them from being arrested for trying to do the right thing, regardless of how many times they slip before birth. And who knows, there will probably be women that DO stop using for the rest of their pregnancy after finding out about this. Can't say everyone is an addict with no control. Some might be able to defeat it.

Or they'll be arrested. Different state but it has happened, to a woman who tested clean. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/shackled-pregnant-wis-case-challenges-fetal-protection-law-f8C11457748

scary.

In her case she just didn't want to take a drug. Her results said she wasn't on percocets. I understand monitoring her to see if she slipped, but damn being arrested for not taking medication is messed up.

Think about the repercussions it has for health care. Just about any medical history you give will ask about drug, alcohol, and tobacco use. This woman was honest about her history and it landed her in cuffs. How many women are going to lie because of things like this? Lying about your medical history can put your health at risk.

our new doctor makes you fill some questions on an IPAD. Every time it's asks about your alcohol and drug usage in the last few weeks/month.

My period ranges from 21 to 35 days. I'm older, not on BC but not TTC either. I do not start getting worried I'm late until 6 weeks after my last period. So it's possible I could go into the doctors feeling sick and find out I'm pregnant. But I've already answered the question I had 6 drinks last night celebrating my birthday. So now I could be arrested for endangering a fetus for getting drunk when I didn't know I was pregnant?

Might not be as far fetched as some might think.

mysticl · July 2014

lyndausvi said:

mysticl said:

lyndausvi said:

mysticl said:

Sugargirl1019 said:

I think the article was saying women giving birth to a baby that tests positive for drugs will be arrested, not all pregnant women will be arrested if on drugs if they show up for prenatal care. I think there's a timing difference. I think if anything, women will be educated at their prenatal appointments about the possibility of being arrested if their baby tests positive at birth. Then they can choose to seek help/rehab and then that would prevent them from being arrested for trying to do the right thing, regardless of how many times they slip before birth. And who knows, there will probably be women that DO stop using for the rest of their pregnancy after finding out about this. Can't say everyone is an addict with no control. Some might be able to defeat it.

Or they'll be arrested. Different state but it has happened, to a woman who tested clean. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/shackled-pregnant-wis-case-challenges-fetal-protection-law-f8C11457748

scary.

In her case she just didn't want to take a drug. Her results said she wasn't on percocets. I understand monitoring her to see if she slipped, but damn being arrested for not taking medication is messed up.

Think about the repercussions it has for health care. Just about any medical history you give will ask about drug, alcohol, and tobacco use. This woman was honest about her history and it landed her in cuffs. How many women are going to lie because of things like this? Lying about your medical history can put your health at risk.

our new doctor makes you fill some questions on an IPAD. Every time it's asks about your alcohol and drug usage in the last few weeks/month.

My period ranges from 21 to 35 days. I'm older, not on BC but not TTC either. I do not start getting worried I'm late until 6 weeks after my last period. So it's possible I could go into the doctors feeling sick and find out I'm pregnant. But I've already answered the question I had 6 drinks last night celebrating my birthday. So now I could be arrested for endangering a fetus for getting drunk when I didn't know I was pregnant?

Might not be as far fetched as some might think.

Exactly.

ohannabelle · July 2014

mysticl said:

Sugargirl1019 said:

I think the article was saying women giving birth to a baby that tests positive for drugs will be arrested, not all pregnant women will be arrested if on drugs if they show up for prenatal care. I think there's a timing difference. I think if anything, women will be educated at their prenatal appointments about the possibility of being arrested if their baby tests positive at birth. Then they can choose to seek help/rehab and then that would prevent them from being arrested for trying to do the right thing, regardless of how many times they slip before birth. And who knows, there will probably be women that DO stop using for the rest of their pregnancy after finding out about this. Can't say everyone is an addict with no control. Some might be able to defeat it.

Or they'll be arrested. Different state but it has happened, to a woman who tested clean. http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/shackled-pregnant-wis-case-challenges-fetal-protection-law-f8C11457748

Well, there it is. Exactly why everyone needs to be afraid.

There is a woman, seeking regular medical care, who confided honestly in her physician that she had previously had a drug problem, but had weaned herself away, and then tested clean for the drug.

She didn't want to take more maintenance drugs.

"At the center of Beltran’s case is a 1997 Wisconsin law that grants courts authority over the fetus of any pregnant woman who “habitually lacks self-control” with drugs and alcohol “to a severe degree” such that there is “substantial risk” to the unborn child. "

This is the kind of vague language in these laws that poses a very real threat to everyone. Define a "habitual lack of self control."

A clear and terrible example of why these laws are dangerous.

Arresting Pregnant Moms On Drugs

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