Camera to Show Harassment

photokitty · October 2014

I don't live in NYC. I live in a big city, but not a MAJOR metropolitan type city. When I walk down the main street of downtown I might have one or two men comment inappropriately, but more frequently I just get "hellos" and "good mornings" - for both sexes. Unless the "good morning" is preceded by a "Damn!" or followed by a "good looking, sweetie, you sexy" (etc) I tend to believe that people are just being friendly - like I am.

I think the cat calling and harassment needs to stop. But I would hate to see us get to the point that as a society we stopped greeting each other bc we were afraid of offending people.

Incidentally I tell strangers - "I love your dress." "Cute shoes!" "Have a good one." on a regular basis. I certainly hope I am not seen as harassing or given a pass to be polite just bc I am a woman. I think some times things are compliments, but it's all about the delivery and intention.

The men that follow women or won't no or silence for an answer should be invited to enjoy pepper spray on a regular basis.

My husband says hello both men and women when we talk down the street, I know he's not harassing or hitting on them. He was just raised to politely greet people. I certainly hope people aren't judging him for doing so while not judging me for doing the same thing.

But then again he's not sitting on the corner hollering exclusively at women walking by.

flyingfoxes · October 2014

Ugh...this shit ALWAYS makes me so uncomfortable. I am in the camp to just ignore it - I wish I knew what to do otherwise.

raissyrais · October 2014

@photokitty: Do you mean that you and/or your H walk in all the streets, anywhere you're heading to and just say Hello/Good Morning etc to everyone you see? I've lived in Toronto, Montreal and now London and I've never seen anyone just say hello to anybody else like that. I guess that if you live in a small area where you all know each other or are acquaintances then it makes sense... And I have to admit that when I visited NY for only 3 days, even though I was accompanied by a male friend, the cat calls still came very, very strong. It is so bizarre and I hate it so much.

@mobride2015: Yes I feel like I'm defenceless because every time I want to say something back I stop myself because I remember that this man could just attack me and there won't be anything I can do physically to stop him.

CrazyCatLady3 · October 2014

Cookie Pusher said:

Bethany Frankel was on the radio this morning, and when asked about this video, said it was just boys being boys, women should be flattered, take the compliment, blah blah blah. It's bad enough that men think this behavior is acceptable but it's even worse when women think the same thing.

Although I'm not sure whether I should be insulted or not that I hardly ever get harassed when I'm in NYC, or any city for that matter. I've had far more harassment in the 'burbs.

Ugh. Another reason I am not a fan of Bethany Frankel. I also think she glorifies borderline anorexia.

photokitty · October 2014

raissyrais said:

@photokitty: Do you mean that you and/or your H walk in all the streets, anywhere you're heading to and just say Hello/Good Morning etc to everyone you see? I've lived in Toronto, Montreal and now London and I've never seen anyone just say hello to anybody else like that. I guess that if you live in a small area where you all know each other or are acquaintances then it makes sense... And I have to admit that when I visited NY for only 3 days, even though I was accompanied by a male friend, the cat calls still came very, very strong. It is so bizarre and I hate it so much.

@mobride2015: Yes I feel like I'm defenceless because every time I want to say something back I stop myself because I remember that this man could just attack me and there won't be anything I can do physically to stop him.

Yep, pretty much - not everyday (we all have our off days), but when I'm in a good mood and I pass someone I will say hello. DH actually does it on a more regular basis since he grew up in a small town. When we are on vacation in other cities we always notice how friendly or unfriendly the city is based on whether or not people reply to our greeting.

I don't live in a city where you constantly pass someone on the sidewalk, more like every 30 feet you pass someone on the sidewalk. I don't greet large groups or people having conversations as they walk - bc that would seem a little aggressive.

It's a large midwest city - but yes, people regularly say "hello" or "good morning" as I pass them on the sidewalk.

I get the cat calls and I hate them too. But I get far more polite "hellos" than rude, harassing comments.

daria24 · October 2014

@photokitty it's all about the culture of where you live. In my hometown in rural PA, everyone greets each other, either verbally or with a polite smile, nod of the head, etc.

Here in NYC, the only people who greet you are either trying to sell you something or they are harassing you. And when you see a man walk by a dozen men, some older women, etc and not say anything, then he says "good morning" while lingering a little too long on your boobs/ass with his eyes, yeah it's harassment, not being polite.

I have yet to find a pattern to the harassment. I've been harassed more wearing my heavy winter coat where I am the shape of the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man than when it's 95 degrees out and I'm wearing as little as possible. I do seem to get the comments more when I'm wearing sunglasses.

HaileyDancingbear · October 2014

I was once sitting on a bench waiting for FI to get off a bus and two douches pulled up in their car and started bugging me to go with them to a party or some shit. WELL GOLLY MISTER RANDOM DOUCEHBAG, THAT SOUNDS DELIGHTFUL. LET ME JUST HOP INTO THAT SKETCHY ASS CAR OF YOURS AND GO TO YOUR SKETCHY ASS PARTY. IS CRACK PROVIDED OR DO I NEED CASH? YOU KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT CASH CRACK PARTIES, THAT IS FUCKING RUDE. THAT MIGHT BE A DEAL-BREAKER.

When "No thanks" didn't get them to leave me the fuck alone immediately and they asked me why I just said "I'm BUSY." "But you're just listening to music on a bench" "Yep. Busy." I actually was busy since as soon as FI got off the bus we were going somewhere, but I wanted them to drive away knowing I was so not interested that I was absolutely content to do nothing rather than be with them. I just wanna sit on a fucking bench without being bothered. and as far as the "Don't dress so sexy" argument goes, it was fucking winter. Full coat, long pants, gloves, scarf, hat. If that's apparently too sexy for men to control themselves then what, should I surgically remove my fucking face? Am I really that fucking unbelievably sexy that even a coat can't make me less provocative?

FUCK cat callers and all these assholes. Fucking entitled fuckheads who think women just owe them shit for some reason. Bitch, I don't owe you anything, not even an explanation. Fuck off. Frankly I am overjoyed to be "bitchy" to these assholes. Because these people have fragile egos (Which is why they get SO OFFENDED when "Hey baby show me your tits" doesn't work.) Fuck you, if you're going to make random women uncomfortable by harassing them, I'm going to ruin your day.

photokitty · October 2014

daria24 said:

@photokitty it's all about the culture of where you live. In my hometown in rural PA, everyone greets each other, either verbally or with a polite smile, nod of the head, etc.

Here in NYC, the only people who greet you are either trying to sell you something or they are harassing you. And when you see a man walk by a dozen men, some older women, etc and not say anything, then he says "good morning" while lingering a little too long on your boobs/ass with his eyes, yeah it's harassment, not being polite.

I have yet to find a pattern to the harassment. I've been harassed more wearing my heavy winter coat where I am the shape of the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man than when it's 95 degrees out and I'm wearing as little as possible. I do seem to get the comments more when I'm wearing sunglasses.

That was my point exactly - delivery/intention or as you said culture/location play a huge factor. uncomfortable that the topic can taken out of context or applied to widely. In NYC "good morning" might be a cat call where in other cities it's just a polite greeting - it varies case by case.

I don't want to see the movement to end call calling and harassment "PC" us to the point that we are afraid to speak to a stranger. What happens in NYC is a far cry form what happens in most of America - it's a very different culture with a VERY high population density.

Heck I was in another big city in the South last Friday and was shocked that I maybe saw 5 people walking around downtown during the day - if they weren't on the phone they all greeted me or said hello in reply.

raissyrais · October 2014

@daria24 I feel so safe behind those sunglasses but yes you're right, it doesn't stop anyone from saying shit.

@HaileyDancingbear Dude you crack me up, well said!!! And when you decide to fully ignore them, you hear "excuse you bitch, I was paying you a compliment, you could at least smile and say thank you, you stupid bitch!" or "what? Do you think you're too beautiful you ho?"

novella1186 · October 2014

HaileyDancingbear said:

I was once sitting on a bench waiting for FI to get off a bus and two douches pulled up in their car and started bugging me to go with them to a party or some shit. WELL GOLLY MISTER RANDOM DOUCEHBAG, THAT SOUNDS DELIGHTFUL. LET ME JUST HOP INTO THAT SKETCHY ASS CAR OF YOURS AND GO TO YOUR SKETCHY ASS PARTY. IS CRACK PROVIDED OR DO I NEED CASH? YOU KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT CASH CRACK PARTIES, THAT IS FUCKING RUDE. THAT MIGHT BE A DEAL-BREAKER.

When "No thanks" didn't get them to leave me the fuck alone immediately and they asked me why I just said "I'm BUSY." "But you're just listening to music on a bench" "Yep. Busy." I actually was busy since as soon as FI got off the bus we were going somewhere, but I wanted them to drive away knowing I was so not interested that I was absolutely content to do nothing rather than be with them. I just wanna sit on a fucking bench without being bothered. and as far as the "Don't dress so sexy" argument goes, it was fucking winter. Full coat, long pants, gloves, scarf, hat. If that's apparently too sexy for men to control themselves then what, should I surgically remove my fucking face? Am I really that fucking unbelievably sexy that even a coat can't make me less provocative?

FUCK cat callers and all these assholes. Fucking entitled fuckheads who think women just owe them shit for some reason. Bitch, I don't owe you anything, not even an explanation. Fuck off. Frankly I am overjoyed to be "bitchy" to these assholes. Because these people have fragile egos (Which is why they get SO OFFENDED when "Hey baby show me your tits" doesn't work.) Fuck you, if you're going to make random women uncomfortable by harassing them, I'm going to ruin your day.

I heart you.

HaileyDancingbear · October 2014

@rassyrais that's when you turn around and tell them to fuck off and quit being an entitled little shit. Again, I love the idea of being mean to these people. Even if they call you nasty things, you still get to grin, knowing you hurt their egos and when they think of you, it's going to make them feel inadequate and upset. FUCKING GOOD. BE UPSET. YOU DESERVE THE DISCOMFORT.

VulgarGirl · October 2014

You know really bothers me? We aren't supposed to say anything back. They can tell us to "smile beautiful", or "shake that ass", or "I wanna see them titties", or "hey fat ass!", or whatever the fuck they want. But we know, we are to not engage. We are not to say, fuck you motherfuck go fuck yourself with your limp little dick you inbred fuckhead. Because that will get us raped/murdered/attacked...and it's not very lady like.

No we need to keep our mouth shut. Do not make eye contact. Make sure you wear sunglasses. Don't smile. Never smile. Bitch face on at all times.

If we do engage and we are raped/murdered/attacked it's our fault for engaging. Because we should have known better. We should've known to keep our mouths shut. Yes, it's a real damn shame what happened to that girl but come on...why'd she say anything?

So we keep silent to keep safe. We keep moving right along saying nothing, bitch face on sunglasses in place, and we're frightened and we're hurting and we're pissed, but we're silent like we're supposed to be to stay safe. And this fuckhead little idiots think that means it's ok, because no means no and silence means yes. If we don't object we must be ok with being whistled at, with being told to give us smile, with being smacked on the ass, and groped on public transportation because we're keeping silent. If we wanted them to stop, we'd tell them. But if we tell them we might get raped/murdered/attacked and as women we are to make sure we are not raped/murdered/attacked because if we are it our fault because we know boys will boys and they cannot control themselves so we need to make sure we cover up and shut up and say no but polietly so as not to hurt their feelings and fragile egos so as not to be called a bitch or a cunt or a whore (I'm whore for not sucking your dick? What level of sense does that make?), honestly don't even say no just lay back and take it. What...it's compliment.

But girls, girls, #notallmen right? That makes it better cause #notallmen.

pinkcow13 · October 2014

photokitty said:

daria24 said:

@photokitty it's all about the culture of where you live. In my hometown in rural PA, everyone greets each other, either verbally or with a polite smile, nod of the head, etc.

Here in NYC, the only people who greet you are either trying to sell you something or they are harassing you. And when you see a man walk by a dozen men, some older women, etc and not say anything, then he says "good morning" while lingering a little too long on your boobs/ass with his eyes, yeah it's harassment, not being polite.

I have yet to find a pattern to the harassment. I've been harassed more wearing my heavy winter coat where I am the shape of the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man than when it's 95 degrees out and I'm wearing as little as possible. I do seem to get the comments more when I'm wearing sunglasses.

That was my point exactly - delivery/intention or as you said culture/location play a huge factor. uncomfortable that the topic can taken out of context or applied to widely. In NYC "good morning" might be a cat call where in other cities it's just a polite greeting - it varies case by case.

I don't want to see the movement to end call calling and harassment "PC" us to the point that we are afraid to speak to a stranger. What happens in NYC is a far cry form what happens in most of America - it's a very different culture with a VERY high population density.

Heck I was in another big city in the South last Friday and was shocked that I maybe saw 5 people walking around downtown during the day - if they weren't on the phone they all greeted me or said hello in reply.

Yea, in NYC good morning (or any sort of greeting) is usually a cat call, or someone trying to hustle you. I once took a card from a monk (gullible moment), and he tried to hustle me out of 20 bucks for it!

It definitely is different in other, smaller cities. When I was in Austin, walking downtown by myself, I was extremely wary when I was greeted by a man. Turns out, he was just genuinely being friendly and sayinh hello!.

For the most part, I just walk around with my headphones. There have been a couple of times in which a guy has tried to grab my attention, and once I determine they are not someone asking for directions, I just keep it moving.

novella1186 · October 2014

We went to a night club for my friend's bachelorette party and it was my fucking nightmare to the extreme. The club was packed and dark, and hands were coming from every direction and just grabbing me. One guy even grabbed my croch and when I turned around to smack him, there were so many people around me that I couldn't even tell who had done it. I had a total panic attack, went back to the hotel by myself, and cried my eyes out.

The group insisted that we go back to that same club the next night, even though everyone got grabbed so much the night before, so I have no idea why they wanted to go again but I didn't want to be the one asshole who wouldn't go. (One of the girls had already given me shit for going back to the hotel early but when I told her what had happened she let up).

I was determined to not be the "victim" again, so I decided that guys needed to see how it felt. One guy grabbed my waist (I fucking HAAAAATE when it's crowded and someone grabs your waist as they go past you as if it's necessary because of the crowd. No fuckhead, you can fucking walk past me without touching me. I promise this is possible) so I grabbed his waist back and squeezed and fucking dug my nails in. He goes "whoa!" and I was like "Yeah, you don't need to grab me. It's not fun is it?"

And then I just kept doing that the rest of the night. None of the guys seemed to enjoy it much. Especially the ones who couldn't tell who had grabbed them because it was so dark and crowded. I hope more than anything that giving them a taste of their own medicine made them think twice about it.

chibiyui · October 2014

pinkrevenge said:
As for her getting rape threats now, I'm not surprised. Are you guys not watching GamerGate? Women are not allowed to portray anything a guy ever does in a negative way, ever. EVER.

My personal favorite is the inevitable "It's not misogyny, you stupid fucking c*nt". Never fails.

I've been following gamergate. This is why we can't have nice things.

Sugargirl1019 · October 2014

I've heard these comments maybe once or twice. Once walking along the street with a friend from a bar, and another in NYC in broad daylight. No random man has ever put his hands on me. (Except a 5 year old boy who ran up to me squeezed my boob and ran away. That's a different story.)

I've never heard any other comments like that.

So, it surprises me that you ladies hear this and deal with this ALL THE TIME. Like I'm confused how men could grow up that way. The few times that it did happen, I counted it off to being a mentally unstable drug addict or alcoholic.

Depresses my heart to find out that there are so many lowlife sleazy men in our world. I truly never see it in my life.

I receive complements often in public, but they never make me feel uncomfortable. Even when older men (grandpas) tell me at work, "you are the prettiest nurse I've ever had", it doesn't make me uncomfortable. It doesn't seem like a derogatory catcall to me.

But by now you all have figured out I live in a bubble.

photokitty · October 2014

I actually do speak up if harassed. Once I was slapped on the butt and I loudly screamed "You don't touch me! You have NO right to touch me!" He was startled on rode off in a hurry - he was on a bike - seriously, a man on a bike smack my ass.

The only time I would not say something is if I was alone or felt threatened. But I believe in calling people out on their rude behavior. I think that as a society we let people get away with things and as a result they continue to do it.

If you say or do something rude, I will call you out. But I also don't automatically assume everyone is being rude - like for saying "good morning."

If I get a "damn! you look good sweetie" I'll say, "I know and I don't need you to tell me" with a resting bitch face, turn on my heels and walk away head held high and assertive.

I think we all should be speaking up - unless it jeopardizes your safety. Then carry pepper spray just in case.

Cookie Pusher · October 2014

As bad as it is in NYC, I've actually heard that street harassment is worse in Philly.

[Deleted User] · October 2014

beethery · October 2014

Nothing gives me a heartier laugh than when, upon not responding positively to catcalls (even just with a stank-face), I get called a fat bitch, stupid cunt, ugly slut.

I was a fat bitch before you showed up and I don't owe you a god damn thing!

littlemushroom · October 2014

@photokitty I agree with you that intent is what determines whether something should be harassment.

I lived and worked in the Loop in Chicago. I took the El and buses to and from work and walked around downtown by myself all the time. I would often say "hello" or "good morning/evening" or smile at/to the people, be they men or women, I passed on the street or on public transit whenever we caught eyes. I wouldn't say it to everyone. I wouldn't smile at everyone. It is just the natural thing to do when you pass by one person or if you catch eyes in a crowd. I had no ulterior motive other than being polite. I wouldn't, and don't, think twice about doing the same no matter where I am.

Other people would do the same to me. Both men and women would say hello as they passed, good morning, etc. Not everyone, or even most people, would do it, but it happened every day at least once. I was also harassed by some people. But there is a huge difference between being harassed and being paid a compliment by a stranger, whether it is a man or woman saying it.

This also made me think of the other thread about giving out more compliments to strangers/people we see throughout the day. Is that only OK because we are (mostly) women? There should be a difference drawn between true compliments and polite interactions and street harassment.

daria24 · October 2014

@Sugargirl1019 even if a cat call isn't "negative", it doesn't mean it isn't harassment. It's great that it doesn't make you uncomfortable. But when your 10 minute walk to & from work can include 10 of those comments, it starts to get to you. You feel like you are being "assessed" every moment of the day when you are just trying to walk down the street. And I don't give a shit if you think I'm pretty or not.

I've been exposed to on the subway multiple times, I've had men press their boners into me on a crowded train. I've had men run their hands up my legs on the subway. I've had men grab my arm on the street to "pay me a compliment." So when you've had all those experiences, a simple "hey beautiful" from a man on the street makes me ragey.

raissyrais · October 2014

Sugargirl1019 said:

I've heard these comments maybe once or twice. Once walking along the street with a friend from a bar, and another in NYC in broad daylight. No random man has ever put his hands on me. (Except a 5 year old boy who ran up to me squeezed my boob and ran away. That's a different story.) I've never heard any other comments like that. So, it surprises me that you ladies hear this and deal with this ALL THE TIME. Like I'm confused how men could grow up that way. The few times that it did happen, I counted it off to being a mentally unstable drug addict or alcoholic. Depresses my heart to find out that there are so many lowlife sleazy men in our world. I truly never see it in my life. I receive complements often in public, but they never make me feel uncomfortable. Even when older men (grandpas) tell me at work, "you are the prettiest nurse I've ever had", it doesn't make me uncomfortable. It doesn't seem like a derogatory catcall to me. But by now you all have figured out I live in a bubble.

Yes sometimes I myself am baffled even though it's been happening to me since I started growing boobs and ass (about 12). I don't know if you saw my previous comment, but twelve year old boys cat called me, in the afternoon, while I was walking HAND IN HAND with my 6ft soon to be husband. I was like WHAT THE DARN FUCK?!

@MagicInk Your post made my heart squeeze cause it's exactly what I think. Nope #notallmen.

southernbelle0915 · October 2014

How do y'all feel about the rubberneck, shameless staring? For me, it makes me almost as uncomfortable as the cat calling.

I know it's unfair to generalize construction workers, but where I live, I have to brace myself to walk past a construction site. Especially if they're on lunch. It's blatant, full-on staring. Like 50 full yards of watching me, elbowing each other, pointing, and making comments (to each other). SO uncomfortable and just really awkward.

raissyrais · October 2014

photokitty said:

I think we all should be speaking up - unless it jeopardizes your safety. Then carry pepper spray just in case.

That's the thing though, I always always keep my mouth shut because, as MagicInk said, I'm scared to get smacked/pushed to the ground/raped/brutalized etc...I have to remember that I weigh 80lbs and no taller than a 12 year old boy and even though my mouth is bigger than any of those little dipshits' dicks will ever be; I decide to keep it shut. Always for my safety.

ETA: @southernbelle0915 I think it's safe to say that almost everywhere in the world, construction workers seem to be the staple for that.

daria24 · October 2014

raissyrais said:

photokitty said:

I think we all should be speaking up - unless it jeopardizes your safety. Then carry pepper spray just in case.

That's the thing though, I always always keep my mouth shut because, as MagicInk said, I'm scared to get smacked/pushed to the ground/raped/brutalized etc...I have to remember that I weigh 80lbs and no taller than a 12 year old boy and even though my mouth is bigger than any of those little dipshits' dicks will ever be; I decide to keep it shut. Always for my safety.

ETA: @southernbelle0915 I think it's safe to say that almost everywhere in the world, construction workers seem to be the staple for that.

Speaking up usually results in being called worse names, and being followed down the street while they scream how much of a bitch/c*nt/whore you are.

Really what I wish would happen is that other people on the street, especially men would have the balls to say "hey, cut that shit out." There's been times when afterwards a woman will come up to me and say "I'm sorry that happened to you." Yeah well the 15 dudes who all had 100+lbs on me could have easily have said "shut the fuck up asshole" and that would have meant more than a private "Sorry."

sarawifenow · October 2014

I find that the more commanding my presence it (think full on business attire, hair back in a sleek bun, firm stance/walk) the less I hear catcalls. I have actually taken to "walking with a purpose" even if it is just a stroll around the park.

I think it is a shame that we, as women, cannot walk around our cities without having to worry about it.

levioosa · October 2014

One of my friends on FB just posted this. Of course three guys protested the use of the word "harassment" in the comments.

"It's a bit much to call it harassment. It's more just unwanted attention."

Oh yeah? It's just "unwanted attention" for someone to follow me for a half mile? It's just unwanted attention for someone to tell me they like the way my ass moves? I'm sorry, I should have been grateful that your "good morning" was followed by that lingering glance on my boobs. Thank god anyone wants to acknowledge my boobs!

Fuck you, dude. It's not unwanted attention. Unwanted attention is when I made accidental eye contact with the old lady at the bar the other night and she latched onto me and SO for a 90 minute talk when we wanted to be in and out of the bar in 20 minutes.

My favorite comment though? "You have to see where she's coming from. Everything seems predatory after awhile."

Ah yes, I'm too stupid to know the difference between an honest greeting and a "predatory remark." My bad. I forgot that as a female I'm not allowed to make judgment calls regarding safety.

Ugh, rage face.

[Deleted User] · October 2014

climbingsingle · October 2014

I once had a guy slap my ass as I was walking out of a Tool concert in Camden. And I spun around and screamed at him. And he and all of his friends fucking laughed, like it was the funniest thing they'd ever seen. If I hadn't been with my younger cousin, I would have jumped on his fucking face like a spider monkey. But I just grabbed my cousin and walked away. And I was sick to my stomach the rest of the night.

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