At What Point is Crowd Funding OK?

theartistformerlyknownas · November 2014

holyguacamole79 said:

lolo883 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

I'm not sure ifyoure aware, @doeydo, but texas just elected a man in a wheelchair to be our governor.

But what's his stance on black cat equality?

H! I figured someome would snark on him. Like him or not, he did overcome a tragic accident and is going to govern a large state while in a wheelchair.

Noooo not snarking on him at all! (don't know anything about the guy, actually)

yogapants · November 2014

holyguacamole79 said:

lolo883 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

I'm not sure ifyoure aware, @doeydo, but texas just elected a man in a wheelchair to be our governor.

But what's his stance on black cat equality?

H! I figured someome would snark on him. Like him or not, he did overcome a tragic accident and is going to govern a large state while in a wheelchair.

She's snarking on doey, not Abbott.

chibiyui · November 2014

holyguacamole79 said:

lolo883 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

I'm not sure ifyoure aware, @doeydo, but texas just elected a man in a wheelchair to be our governor.

But what's his stance on black cat equality?

H! I figured someome would snark on him. Like him or not, he did overcome a tragic accident and is going to govern a large state while in a wheelchair.

Lolo883 wasn't snarking him. Snarking him would be pointing out that he's a republican in Texas, so he would havery to be dead to have lost.

holyguacamole79 · November 2014

Forgive me, lolo. There were were some allegations during the campaign claiming that he would not strike down an interracial marriage ban. I thought you were referring to that. Mah bad. Carry on.

holyguacamole79 · November 2014

chibiyui said:

lolo883 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

I'm not sure ifyoure aware, @doeydo, but texas just elected a man in a wheelchair to be our governor.

But what's his stance on black cat equality?

H! I figured someome would snark on him. Like him or not, he did overcome a tragic accident and is going to govern a large state while in a wheelchair.
Lolo883 wasn't snarking him. Snarking him would be pointing out that he's a republican in Texas, so he would havery to be dead to have lost.

You'd be surprised ... Houston has quite a liberal mayor, as does San Antonio.

theartistformerlyknownas · November 2014

holyguacamole79 said:

Forgive me, lolo. There were were some allegations during the campaign claiming that he would not strike down an interracial marriage ban. I thought you were referring to that. Mah bad. Carry on.

No prob. Forgive me for not knowing jack about politics in Texas.

holyguacamole79 · November 2014

lolo883 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

Forgive me, lolo. There were were some allegations during the campaign claiming that he would not strike down an interracial marriage ban. I thought you were referring to that. Mah bad. Carry on.

No prob. Forgive me for not knowing jack about politics in Texas.

We're good, yo.

chibiyui · November 2014

holyguacamole79 said:

chibiyui said:

holyguacamole79 said:

lolo883 said:

holyguacamole79 said:

I'm not sure ifyoure aware, @doeydo, but texas just elected a man in a wheelchair to be our governor.

But what's his stance on black cat equality?

H! I figured someome would snark on him. Like him or not, he did overcome a tragic accident and is going to govern a large state while in a wheelchair.

Lolo883 wasn't snarking him. Snarking him would be pointing out that he's a republican in Texas, so he would havery to be dead to have lost.

You'd be surprised ... Houston has quite a liberal mayor, as does San Antonio.

Yeah, but that's like pointing out Philly and Pittsburgh skew liberal.

levioosa · November 2014

I can't with this whole thread.

Doey, I can't even believe some of the things you have said. Some of what you said is so fucked up I can't even respond to it directly.

FWIW, my brother was a dumbass and got into an accident with his girlfriend. He actually killed her and they brought her back. She was in a coma for three months. In one night alone her medical bills were over $1 Million. Her family was well off, but there's no way they could handle the literal millions of dollars worth of medical bills in such a short amount of time. So, you know, they never should have had her in the first place because they didn't plan for a future in which their beloved child became a head trauma. *eye roll*

I honestly don't even know if you could rack up a million dollars worth of vet bills in a cat's lifetime, let alone on one single day. Comparing the two is seriously ignorant. Get your head out of the clouds and into reality.

I judge crowd funding for frivolous things like vacations, weddings, or extra curricular activities. I don't side eye tragedy crowdfunding (although I did side eye one couple who crowd funded for a funeral the other day. Mostly because they posted pictures of their deceased preemie child and I thought that was inappropriate).

Tragedy does not only strike the fabulously rich. It does not pick and choose only those who are "bad" and "deserve" it. Tragedy is senseless and cares not for who it affects or the lives it destroys. The suffering of others should not be trivialized because they are poor and cannot afford to move. If you don't want to donate, then fine, but get up and out of your chair of privilege.

larrygaga · November 2014

No, this is the point of donation money. To help out in emergencies.

AddieCake · November 2014

I don't know who Lil Bub is. Do I need to look this up? Am I disrespecting my cats b/c I am not familiar with one of their representatives? Is this why they were walking on my head at dawn?

levioosa · November 2014

AddieCake said:

I don't know who Lil Bub is. Do I need to look this up? Am I disrespecting my cats b/c I am not familiar with one of their representatives? Is this why they were walking on my head at dawn?

You're totes disrespecting your cats. Don't you know all the rights Lil Bub has fought for?! At the very least he is comparable to Dorthea Dix or Susan B. Anthony.

theartistformerlyknownas · November 2014

So tell me @doeydo‌. I'd love to know what it is that your cat specifically contributes to the world that gives you such a strong belief that s/he is equal (or greater) in value to a human life. You were so offended by my assumption that a person would be motivated to save a pet because that pet makes them happy, so your reasons must not include anything regarding YOUR own feelings or how your cat makes YOU feel. Please, enlighten me. You have the floor.

alpacalunch · November 2014

Okay.... Huh. OP, I'm so sorry to hear about what happened, my thoughts are with them. This is the sort of crowd funding I'm okay with, particularly when it's someone removed from the situation getting things started. Tragedies can destroy people financially. I think, doey, that's something you aren't understanding. This far exceeds an 'emergency fund', say six months of expenses. Insured or not, this family could face hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills. If my family was in the US, even with solid insurance, we would have been bankrupted when I was in elementary school, Drs visits alone, not even the surgeries and prescriptions. We are so lucky to live where we do, and to not be as concerned about this happening. This is the time for compassion, not snide remarks. Though straight up, I hate cats, so I am biased. ETA:iPad won't let me format, sorry

huskypuppy14 · November 2014

doeydo said:

lolo883 said:

yogapants said:

Lurker de-lurking to say that you sound both self-righteous and uninformed, doeydo, which is a terrible combination.

I've found that most of the time it's not even the person directly affected by the tragedy that makes the gofundme or whatever. It's often a friend, neighbor, etc. who sees the need and steps in. I cannot imagine side-eying this kind of crowd funding. Are you kidding me? Two of their children were grievously injured in a hit-and-run. One is losing his LEG. He's going to be disabled for the rest of his life. The other boy may need to be cared for by his parents for the rest of his life, depending on the severity of his head/brain injuries. There's no way to plan for that, and the suggestion that they should've planned better by emigrating is asinine. Emigration can take years and thousands of dollars, and it means leaving behind family, friends, potentially pets ("fur babies", fuck*) unless you're willing to put them in a 6-month quarantine, etc. And it may require sponsorship from a company or having an in-demand skill to even begin the process of applying for a work visa. You can't "just move" to another country.

So no, OP, I don't side-eye this kind of crowd funding. But my eyes are bugging out of my head at this thread.

*I've paid for surgery for a cat before. It was $1200. But if I had to pay a grand for surgery and they amputated the cat's leg, okay. After the surgery, I didn't have to worry about potential long-term care for the cat (either providing care for the cat well after when it should be able to function as an adult, or paying someone to come to the home, or paying to put the cat in a facility - this is about the possibly brain-damaged boy, obviously), applying for disability for the cat, getting an IEP for the cat so that it has accommodations in school, what kind of job the cat might be able to do when it grows up, on and on and on. There is no comparison here between paying for surgery for a pet and amputating the leg of a child or dealing with long-term brain damage. None.

You also don't have to consider the lifetime potential of a cat when considering the level of care and money you're willing to spend and time you're willing to devote to saving it. You don't think about your cat graduating high school, college, falling in love, raising a family. Whether your cat could grow up to be president, or cure cancer, or find life on another planet. Whether your cat will inspire millions of people with an art form or a physical skill. When you give EVERYTHING YOU HAVE to save your child, you don't do it just because you love the kid. You do it for ALL the reasons you hope a person has a long, healthy, fulfilling and fulfilled life. You put your heart and soul into a child hoping that their being and their presence in this world will make it a better place, whether it's just to one person or to billions.

All you have to think about with a cat is "this cat makes me happy when he purrs on my chest, and could continue to make me happy for the next x years if I spend this $x on this treatment. I could get a different cat, but he might not make me quite as happy, so I'll save this cat." NO. FUCKING. COMPARISON.

So if a person has zero chance of doing any of the bolded (let's say the person is in a wheel chair and cannot express themselves other than pointing to something on a mat thing in front of them ie. a picture of food when they are hungry), their lives don't matter as much as someone who is brilliant and might go on to do great things? And let's be honest, most people in the world are not extraordinary. They just go about their daily lives and die and when their friends and family die nothing from them will be remembered, just the facts. Sure, parents think their little SS is amazeballs, but they probably aren't.

Also, a cat can absolutely inspire people and do amazing things (not saying my cats would, just that they can). I mean look at how amazing Lil Bub is, she is such an inspiration and a happy little girl http://www.buzzfeed.com/samimain/lil-bub-continues-to-be-an-amazing-inspiration-to-everybody
And cats like Princess Monster Truck have become "spokespersons" for adoption, black cat equality, and adopting a pet even though they might be ugly to some people http://www.princessmonstertruck.com/about
And hero cats http://www.today.com/pets/good-kitty-these-6-hero-cats-saved-humans-they-loved-2D79677090

The last bit you said about why I would save my cats, that I am doing it for me so I can get cuddles I am not even going to respond to.

huskypuppy14 · November 2014

Doey, do you know how much an amputation and follow up care, prosthetic legs etc costs? It's astronomical, even if you have good insurance. You will never come close to a speck of that type of money with a cat, so get your head out of your ass and think before you post.

I have no problem with crowdfunding for this type of situation. There is no problem if you disagree, but the way you're explaining yourself is disgusting.

LadyMillil · November 2014

huskypuppy14 said:

Doey, do you know how much an amputation and follow up care, prosthetic legs etc costs? It's astronomical, even if you have good insurance. You will never come close to a speck of that type of money with a cat, so get your head out of your ass and think before you post.

I have no problem with crowdfunding for this type of situation. There is no problem if you disagree, but the way you're explaining yourself is disgusting.

Even with good insurance in Canada a lot of the follow up care like PT visits and medical stuff needed at home like shower chairs, hand rails etc are not covered, or not covered in full and can get very expensive. On top of that is potential lost wages, potentially having to move to a home that is more accessible or undertaking renovations at your home to increase accessibility and a lot of other quality of life things that won't be coverd by even the best health insurance. ETA - I have a cousin that is disabled. My aunt and uncle live in Canada and have jobs with very good health insurance. They still pay $10,000-20,000 out of pocket each year to cover medically necessary therapy visits, after school care for a disabled teenager, and upgrading medical equipment at home as cousin outgrows stuff.

PrettyGirlLost · November 2014

This discussion is going off the rails. This is a terrible tragedy. Horrific. I wish this family well. Situations like these seem to be the reason crowdsourcing exists.

As to this debate on humans vs animals, well human beings *are* animals. . . We are not plant's or bacteria. I don't automatically value human life over non human life, either. I try to value all life equally.

As the dominant species on this planet, human beings do some pretty fucked up shit to each other and other animals, shit that is unconscionable and beyond cruel.

If a building was burning and I had to save a person or a dog or cat, I'd die trying to save both.

themosthappy91 · November 2014

I just read through this thread and honestly I'm floored. So much so that, while I fully recognize I don't really have anything new to contribute, I just have to say some stuff because my feelings are that strong.

I have had two cats in my life. I loved and cared for my first cat (who recently passed away) beyond what most people in my family considered strictly "normal", and spent a good deal of money prolonging his life and increasing his quality of life where others might have decided just to let the cat go. I assume I will do the same with my new cat as she ages.

But to compare the potential of a cat (or any animal) to a human is simply disgusting. To compare a cat to a person's child is beyond reprehensible. I am so disturbed, @doeydo , by your comparison of the impact cats can have on the world with the contributions of even the most insignificant human being. Like, to the point where, and other's can say I've gone to far if that's the case, I honestly feel that if what you've expressed in this thread is your genuine opinion, you might need to seek professional help. I don't know your posting history enough to say more than I THOUGHT I would usually tend to agree with you and you're a frequent enough poster that obviously you're not a troll, but this lack of compassion for human life really bothers me. A pet is not comparable to a person's child. That is not a disputable fact.

People can save and they can plan. They can be prepared to cover a trip to the emergency room, a totaled car, even a longterm illness like some forms of cancer. It is unreasonable to expect anyone to save enough to be able to cover multiple children having life-threatening horrible medical emergencies at the same time, and to suggest that it's not is callous and vile. If that were the prerequisite to having kids, I think Earth's population would dwindle pretty quickly. Which maybe you would like, because then humans woulds die off and cats could take over the world.

@Doeydo, you haven't answered many questions raised in this thread that I would like answers to. If you plan to have children, what will happen if one of them is allergic to your cats? If it were a choice between saving your cat and another person's child, would you truly value your cat over a beloved human being? And finally, what in the HECK is a Lil Bub?

PrettyGirlLost · November 2014

lolo883 said:
So tell me @doeydo‌. I'd love to know what it is that your cat specifically contributes to the world that gives you such a strong belief that s/he is equal (or greater) in value to a human life. You were so offended by my assumption that a person would be motivated to save a pet because that pet makes them happy, so your reasons must not include anything regarding YOUR own feelings or how your cat makes YOU feel. Please, enlighten me. You have the floor.

This is a silly line of logic because it assumes that all human life contributes something fantastic and earth shattering to the rest of society, and that just isn't the case.

I understand the point you are trying to make Lolo, but I don't necessarily agree 100%

levioosa · November 2014

Lil Bub

Edit: SOAB. I am embeding incompetent.

http://youtu.be/aSpldua2rec

There's the link, y'all.

theartistformerlyknownas · November 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

So tell me @doeydo‌. I'd love to know what it is that your cat specifically contributes to the world that gives you such a strong belief that s/he is equal (or greater) in value to a human life. You were so offended by my assumption that a person would be motivated to save a pet because that pet makes them happy, so your reasons must not include anything regarding YOUR own feelings or how your cat makes YOU feel. Please, enlighten me. You have the floor.
This is a silly line of logic because it assumes that all human life contributes something fantastic and earth shattering to the rest of society, and that just isn't the case. I understand the point you are trying to make Lolo, but I don't necessarily agree 100%

Of course not every person does. But every person has the potential to, which was my argument for why a human life has more inherent value than a cat's life. No cat has the potential to independently have anywhere close the amount of impact a person can potentially have. Animals can be instrumental in very important things, sure. But not independently. Animals don't create. They don't invent.

We love our pets for selfish reasons, and there's nothing wrong with that. We love them for the joy they provide to our lives. They make us happy, feel loved and safe and needed. I would go to great lengths to save my dog, for those reasons. But Doey was aghast at my assertion that we make decisions to save our pets for selfish reasons, so I wanted to know what purpose she saw her cat fulfilling, beyond her own needs and feelings. Considering one of the main reasons she gave for staying with her SO was that he kills the bugs, I'm truly curious to hear it.

yogapants · November 2014

@PrettyGirlLost, you come in here to say that this thread has been badly derailed...only to further derail it? Lolo asked doeydo about what fantastic thing her cat has done because Doey implied that her reason for paying for life-saving surgeries for the cat would be bigger than kitty cuddles. Her tone in that post read as pretty facetious to me.

The whole reason we're even talking about animals is that doeydo said that people should only have kids if they can afford to pay for catastrophe, just like she can afford to pay for her cat's vet bills - bills which, as several of us have said, will never ever ever in a million years even come close to this family's expenses. No one is saying that pets aren't important and don't deserve to be loved and cared for, but there was no reason for surgery for a pet to even be brought into this discussion because it doesn't remotely compare. At all.

PrettyGirlLost · November 2014

lolo883 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

lolo883 said:
So tell me @doeydo‌. I'd love to know what it is that your cat specifically contributes to the world that gives you such a strong belief that s/he is equal (or greater) in value to a human life. You were so offended by my assumption that a person would be motivated to save a pet because that pet makes them happy, so your reasons must not include anything regarding YOUR own feelings or how your cat makes YOU feel. Please, enlighten me. You have the floor.
This is a silly line of logic because it assumes that all human life contributes something fantastic and earth shattering to the rest of society, and that just isn't the case.

I understand the point you are trying to make Lolo, but I don't necessarily agree 100%

Of course not every person does. But every person has the potential to, which was my argument for why a human life has more inherent value than a cat's life. No cat has the potential to independently have anywhere close the amount of impact a person can potentially have. Animals can be instrumental in very important things, sure. But not independently. Animals don't create. They don't invent.

We love our pets for selfish reasons, and there's nothing wrong with that. We love them for the joy they provide to our lives. They make us happy, feel loved and safe and needed. I would go to great lengths to save my dog, for those reasons. But Doey was aghast at my assertion that we make decisions to save our pets for selfish reasons, so I wanted to know what purpose she saw her cat fulfilling, beyond her own needs and feelings. Considering one of the main reasons she gave for staying with her SO was that he kills the bugs, I'm truly curious to hear it.

Psychologists and sociologists would argue that we save our children for selfish reasons as well. . . Cant let our genes die off. In fact some believe that true altruism doesn't exist at all and that our "good Samaritans" are actually fueled by a desire for attention and live via attention.

Why does any life have to fulfill a purpose or contribute anything in order for it to have value? That's where this line of logic points

misshart00 · November 2014

To be honest, I would probably side eye on a case by case basis. That being said, I will generally not side eye most of these things if it is set up by someone who is not the recipient.

Viczaesar · November 2014

doeydo said:

Sorrynotsorry, people choose to have children (or pets) and they should be prepared for if a tragedy strikes and they need to provide for something such as multiple surgeries. If they are not prepared for that, that is on them to get an extra job, take out loans, etc. They should not ever ask anyone for money. However, if someone of their own free will hands them a check or envelope of money, good for them and the parents can totally accept that, IMO.

holyguacamole79 said:

I wouldn't side eye that. It's not for a vacation, or becasuse they were neglecting their health, it's a fucking tragedy.
Agree 100%. And, @doeydo‌, I don't think this has anything to do with whether or not a family has children. If the victims had been adults, it could have been handled the same way.

Um, OK, well lets say it was just the parents that need health care. Sorry, but you should be prepared for shit to strike, so they could have chosen to live in a country with a better health care system, had a savings account, etc.

This is asinine, @doeydo, and tells me more than I want to know about your maturity level and ability to reason.

PrettyGirlLost · November 2014

yogapants said:
@PrettyGirlLost, you come in here to say that this thread has been badly derailed...only to further derail it? Lolo asked doeydo about what fantastic thing her cat has done because Doey implied that her reason for paying for life-saving surgeries for the cat would be bigger than kitty cuddles. Her tone in that post read as pretty facetious to me.

The whole reason we're even talking about animals is that doeydo said that people should only have kids if they can afford to pay for catastrophe, just like she can afford to pay for her cat's vet bills - bills which, as several of us have said, will never ever ever in a million years even come close to this family's expenses. No one is saying that pets aren't important and don't deserve to be loved and cared for, but there was no reason for surgery for a pet to even be brought into this discussion because it doesn't remotely compare. At all.

I said off the rails. . . As in ppl are freaking the fuck out.

And I'm sorry, I thought the point of a discussion forum was to discuss shit? No? Oh well I'm going to give my opinion any fucking way.

I think people are taking shit way too damn personally. . .as usual for this board it seems. Yes, Doey's comments are naive, not well formed, close minded, etc. Most people would choose a human life over another animal. Fine. She doesn't necessarily agree.

The point of my comments was that these ethical discussions are not always black and white, and not everyone is going to agree.

theartistformerlyknownas · November 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

So tell me @doeydo‌. I'd love to know what it is that your cat specifically contributes to the world that gives you such a strong belief that s/he is equal (or greater) in value to a human life. You were so offended by my assumption that a person would be motivated to save a pet because that pet makes them happy, so your reasons must not include anything regarding YOUR own feelings or how your cat makes YOU feel. Please, enlighten me. You have the floor.
This is a silly line of logic because it assumes that all human life contributes something fantastic and earth shattering to the rest of society, and that just isn't the case. I understand the point you are trying to make Lolo, but I don't necessarily agree 100%

Of course not every person does. But every person has the potential to, which was my argument for why a human life has more inherent value than a cat's life. No cat has the potential to independently have anywhere close the amount of impact a person can potentially have. Animals can be instrumental in very important things, sure. But not independently. Animals don't create. They don't invent.

We love our pets for selfish reasons, and there's nothing wrong with that. We love them for the joy they provide to our lives. They make us happy, feel loved and safe and needed. I would go to great lengths to save my dog, for those reasons. But Doey was aghast at my assertion that we make decisions to save our pets for selfish reasons, so I wanted to know what purpose she saw her cat fulfilling, beyond her own needs and feelings. Considering one of the main reasons she gave for staying with her SO was that he kills the bugs, I'm truly curious to hear it.
Psychologists and sociologists would argue that we save our children for selfish reasons as well. . . Cant let our genes die off. In fact some believe that true altruism doesn't exist at all and that our "good Samaritans" are actually fueled by a desire for attention and live via attention. Why does any life have to fulfill a purpose or contribute anything in order for it to have value? That's where this line of logic points

I'm not saying that anyone consciously goes through that thought process or calculation, but at the end of the day that's what ultimately separates us from animals.

doeydo · November 2014

I'm not responding further. This is pointless. We disagree, and that's fine. I do not "lack compassion for human life", far from it. I just have more "compassion" for other animals' lives than y'all seem to. Whatever.

Viczaesar · November 2014

doeydo said:

steph861 said:

No, I would not side-eye this. There's a massive difference between honeyfunds and collecting donations for a family in need. @doeydo‌ You know it's not as simple as moving to another country or saving more. That's an incredibly simplistic view. (Do you know how complicated it is to emigrate? Or how much money a couple would have to make in order to save enough to cover catastrophic hospital bills in the US?). You're entitled to your opinions, and opposition to crowdfunding is a legitimate opinion, but don't put this on the family for "not being prepared." There are so many variables here. If being 100% prepared for every disaster that could befall children were a prerequisite for having kids, nobody would ever have kids. I doubt you'd be singing this tune if your loved ones were the people in this situation.

People in my family have had cancer, heart attacks, broken hips, knee replacements, and that sort of thing all covered and whatever is not covered, they have paid for by themselves. I realize how lucky I am to live in Canada, and am very grateful. No, I am not well educated on immigration processes since I never looked into it. IDK, I just can't imagine living in a country like the USA and just going through life knowing that if I was to get sick or in an accident I would be SOL. I feel like I'd turn into Spongebob when he was scared of getting hurt and getting the iron butt, until I could figure something out

ETA and you can bet your bottom dollar that I would spend ever cent I have to save my fur babies if need be, get a payment plan with my vet, take out loans, get another job, etc. but I would never, ever ask anyone for money.

Then maybe you shouldn't speak out of your ass about things you are ignorant about.

Newsflash: no matter what happens to your pets, it's unlikely to cost you $1M. If by some anti-miracle the cost for caring for your pet came to $500,000+, I'd love to know your exact, detailed plan for paying for that. What second job would you take, how many hours a week, and for what pay? What loan do you think you could convince someone to give you in order to pay for health care for your pet, and at what interest rate? Do you really think your vet would allow you to pay $50/month toward a 500K bill for the rest of your life? How much money do you have sitting around in your bank account or under your mattress right this moment to pay towards that 500K bill?

At What Point is Crowd Funding OK?

Re: At What Point is Crowd Funding OK?

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