At What Point is Crowd Funding OK?

jenna8984 · November 2014

PrettyGirlLost said:

LondonLisa said:

Coming from a country with free health care, I am just baffled at how it can be expected for one family to pay for such a catastrophic accident on their own. So yes, I agree that crowdfunding in an extreme circumstance should help, but a better solution is figuring out a way where people don't have to pay for medical emergencies that are absolutely no fault of their own. My cousin has cerebral palsey, and his family had paid nothing (absolutely ZERO) for his care, special schooling, therapy, and medical costs (including experimental treatments).

If someone is stabbed, we don't expect them to pay more for policing to find the criminal. I don't understand how that can be expected of healthcare.

I love visiting the States and I certainly don't mean this as a reflection on everyone (I would never make such a gross generalisation), but the opposition to free healthcare is something I will never wrap my head around. I'm SO thankful for the NHS!

Your healthcare isn't free, though. Isn't it paid for from the taxes you pay (income, VAT, etc.)?

Also the company's taxes. We hired a man over in our UK office but since he's doing work for my division, we are being cross charged for his salary and benefits. I was shocked to see that what we pay for his laundry list of taxes over there, is 100% equal to what we pay him in salary. That is crazy. In the US a company might pay $50k for a salary and $10k worth of insurance and taxes for that person. This guy is costing basically 50k in salary and 50k in insurance and taxes.

ETA- not that our system is better, clearly by the life ruining medical bills, just pointing out that yours is not "free".

LondonLisa · November 2014

jenna8984 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

LondonLisa said:

Coming from a country with free health care, I am just baffled at how it can be expected for one family to pay for such a catastrophic accident on their own. So yes, I agree that crowdfunding in an extreme circumstance should help, but a better solution is figuring out a way where people don't have to pay for medical emergencies that are absolutely no fault of their own. My cousin has cerebral palsey, and his family had paid nothing (absolutely ZERO) for his care, special schooling, therapy, and medical costs (including experimental treatments).

If someone is stabbed, we don't expect them to pay more for policing to find the criminal. I don't understand how that can be expected of healthcare.

I love visiting the States and I certainly don't mean this as a reflection on everyone (I would never make such a gross generalisation), but the opposition to free healthcare is something I will never wrap my head around. I'm SO thankful for the NHS!

Your healthcare isn't free, though. Isn't it paid for from the taxes you pay (income, VAT, etc.)?

Also the company's taxes. We hired a man over in our UK office but since he's doing work for my division, we are being cross charged for his salary and benefits. I was shocked to see that what we pay for his laundry list of taxes over there, is 100% equal to what we pay him in salary. That is crazy. In the US a company might pay $50k for a salary and $10k worth of insurance and taxes for that person. This guy is costing basically 50k in salary and 50k in insurance and taxes.
ETA- not that our system is better, clearly by the life ruining medical bills, just pointing out that yours is not "free".

Obviously it isn't "free". But do you look at policing or public schooling based on the tax per benefit? That is a silly reason to not support it. The reason I said free is because the key tenant of the NHS is "free from the point of entry."

At the end of the day, I pay 20% in income tax and would never have to worry about losing my house if god forbid a tragedy like that hit me. And the UK has half the corporate tax as the US. Comparing a double taxation on an exchange worker seems silly (and you need a new accountant, because the US and UK have a tax reciprocity treaty, I work in NYC a lot).

I don't want to make this overtly political, but goodness gracious, if you don't see something wrong with a system where you have to have a community fundraiser for those poor children to pay for them to not be lying dead on the street, I really have nothing!

PrettyGirlLost · November 2014

LondonLisa said:

jenna8984 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

LondonLisa said:

Coming from a country with free health care, I am just baffled at how it can be expected for one family to pay for such a catastrophic accident on their own. So yes, I agree that crowdfunding in an extreme circumstance should help, but a better solution is figuring out a way where people don't have to pay for medical emergencies that are absolutely no fault of their own. My cousin has cerebral palsey, and his family had paid nothing (absolutely ZERO) for his care, special schooling, therapy, and medical costs (including experimental treatments).

If someone is stabbed, we don't expect them to pay more for policing to find the criminal. I don't understand how that can be expected of healthcare.

I love visiting the States and I certainly don't mean this as a reflection on everyone (I would never make such a gross generalisation), but the opposition to free healthcare is something I will never wrap my head around. I'm SO thankful for the NHS!

Your healthcare isn't free, though. Isn't it paid for from the taxes you pay (income, VAT, etc.)?

Also the company's taxes. We hired a man over in our UK office but since he's doing work for my division, we are being cross charged for his salary and benefits. I was shocked to see that what we pay for his laundry list of taxes over there, is 100% equal to what we pay him in salary. That is crazy. In the US a company might pay $50k for a salary and $10k worth of insurance and taxes for that person. This guy is costing basically 50k in salary and 50k in insurance and taxes.
ETA- not that our system is better, clearly by the life ruining medical bills, just pointing out that yours is not "free".

Obviously it isn't "free". But do you look at policing or public schooling based on the tax per benefit? That is a silly reason to not support it. The reason I said free is because the key tenant of the NHS is "free from the point of entry."

At the end of the day, I pay 20% in income tax and would never have to worry about losing my house if god forbid a tragedy like that hit me. And the UK has half the corporate tax as the US. Comparing a double taxation on an exchange worker seems silly (and you need a new accountant, because the US and UK have a tax reciprocity treaty, I work in NYC a lot).

I don't want to make this overtly political, but goodness gracious, if you don't see something wrong with a system where you have to have a community fundraiser for those poor children to pay for them to not be lying dead on the street, I really have nothing!

Yes, we weren't making apolitical statement, just a point of clarification. This concept of "free" healthcare or anything just isn't true. Everything has to be paid for somehow, whether it be via employee contributions out of your paycheck directly, or via some other form of taxation later on.

ohmrs2014 · November 2014

While I am all for free healthcare if done right, the US economy depends on it. It's a multibillion dollar business and without, this country's economy would plummet worse than what it already has.

LondonLisa · November 2014

ohmrs2014 said:

While I am all for free healthcare if done right, the US economy depends on it. It's a multibillion dollar business and without, this country's economy would plummet worse than what it already has.

Again, I cannot argue with this- I am genuinely baffled that anyone would not be outraged by a system where these poor children's parents could lose their house/ be indebted for life for having the audacity to be hit by a car.

I really don't see any excuse as a valid one (especially taxes). I think we may have to draw a line under this because we have fundamentally different belief systems.

levioosa · November 2014

LondonLisa said:

jenna8984 said:

PrettyGirlLost said:

LondonLisa said:

Coming from a country with free health care, I am just baffled at how it can be expected for one family to pay for such a catastrophic accident on their own. So yes, I agree that crowdfunding in an extreme circumstance should help, but a better solution is figuring out a way where people don't have to pay for medical emergencies that are absolutely no fault of their own. My cousin has cerebral palsey, and his family had paid nothing (absolutely ZERO) for his care, special schooling, therapy, and medical costs (including experimental treatments).

If someone is stabbed, we don't expect them to pay more for policing to find the criminal. I don't understand how that can be expected of healthcare.

I love visiting the States and I certainly don't mean this as a reflection on everyone (I would never make such a gross generalisation), but the opposition to free healthcare is something I will never wrap my head around. I'm SO thankful for the NHS!

Your healthcare isn't free, though. Isn't it paid for from the taxes you pay (income, VAT, etc.)?

Also the company's taxes. We hired a man over in our UK office but since he's doing work for my division, we are being cross charged for his salary and benefits. I was shocked to see that what we pay for his laundry list of taxes over there, is 100% equal to what we pay him in salary. That is crazy. In the US a company might pay $50k for a salary and $10k worth of insurance and taxes for that person. This guy is costing basically 50k in salary and 50k in insurance and taxes.
ETA- not that our system is better, clearly by the life ruining medical bills, just pointing out that yours is not "free".

Obviously it isn't "free". But do you look at policing or public schooling based on the tax per benefit? That is a silly reason to not support it. The reason I said free is because the key tenant of the NHS is "free from the point of entry."

At the end of the day, I pay 20% in income tax and would never have to worry about losing my house if god forbid a tragedy like that hit me. And the UK has half the corporate tax as the US. Comparing a double taxation on an exchange worker seems silly (and you need a new accountant, because the US and UK have a tax reciprocity treaty, I work in NYC a lot).

I don't want to make this overtly political, but goodness gracious, if you don't see something wrong with a system where you have to have a community fundraiser for those poor children to pay for them to not be lying dead on the street, I really have nothing!

I don't think anyone is saying that our system doesn't need some major overhauling, merely that countries that provide government healthcare aren't actually "free."

jenna8984 · November 2014

Yes. I definitely agree that our system sucks and no one should have to lose their home or fundraise a million dollars for medical expenses. But sometimes Canadians or Britians don't understand how impossible it is with our population. They are just like "well do it like we do it" and that's not possible when Canada has 19 million people, UK has 68 million people, and the US has 319 million people. A very high percentage of this country doesn't have jobs (due to both disability and poor economy) so it would require practically 99% tax rate of the working individuals and corporations to afford the systems that these other countries have. It really is a sucky situation with no real solution. And we already pay between 15-30% in taxes so it's not like we are paying nothing and complaining about getting nothing- we pay a lot.

hellosweetie1015 · November 2014

I'm staying away from the healthcare debate, because I frankly don't understand it well enough to be involved.

I also am going to (mostly) stay away from the people-versus-animals debate, because - in the fairly disreputable words of the Bloodhound Gang - "You and me, baby, ain't nuthin' but mammals."

I am going to say, however, that when our house burned, four people, two cats (both of whom were my babies), and a bird were inside. Four people, one cat, and the bird got out. My 17-year-old sister went after the one cat that didn't get out, and he ran away from her. She cried for DAYS. DAYS. over that cat, and how she didn't save him, and how if she'd just chased him another minute she could have caught him. I finally had to ask her whether she thought I'd rather have my cat over my sister. If she'd stayed in the house another 30 seconds trying to catch him, she would have never gotten out - the house would have been falling down around her ears. I miss my cat; he was a love and a baby and generally much easier to get along with than my sister. But I can recover from the loss of a cat. I don't know that I could recover from the loss of my sister.

My thoughts and prayers are with this family as they move forward. I have absolutely no issue with the thought of crowdfunding for something like this other than the fact that any donations will be charged the crowdfunding fees, and if I knew these people I would ensure that whatever I gave went straight to them rather than through fees.

alpacalunch · November 2014

jenna8984 said:

Yes. I definitely agree that our system sucks and no one should have to lose their home or fundraise a million dollars for medical expenses. But sometimes Canadians or Britians don't understand how impossible it is with our population. They are just like "well do it like we do it" and that's not possible when Canada has 19 million people, UK has 68 million people, and the US has 319 million people. A very high percentage of this country doesn't have jobs (due to both disability and poor economy) so it would require practically 99% tax rate of the working individuals and corporations to afford the systems that these other countries have. It really is a sucky situation with no real solution. And we already pay between 15-30% in taxes so it's not like we are paying nothing and complaining about getting nothing- we pay a lot.

Just as a clarification, Canada has nearly twice that population (around 35 million last I checked).

Somehow converting over to social healthcare in the United States would likely take decades and trillions of dollars. It's not an easily acheived transition. As a citizen of a country with healthcare provisions in our Charter of Rights and Freedoms (section 7), it's truly hard to wrap my head around why people wouldn't want pubic healthcare, even when the process of attaining it is obviously not a simple task.

I do find it interesting the differences in what countries use their tax dollars for, and how it's reflected in society though. Could be health care, education, scientific research, armed forces. Just a side point.

jdluvr06 · November 2014

Honestly I'm happy the US doesn't have a single payer system. Yes the way things are suck but I honestly think it would be worse if our taxes covered health care cost. We can be pretty greedy with our money in the US and I can really see the quality of health care suffering greatly because of cost. I just don't see the majority of people paying more in taxes for better healthcare.

Op I'm sending all the postive energy to your friend's family. I wanted to avoid the debates but they've been in my thoughts.

lovesclimbing · November 2014

Our health care system is not great right now, but I have to say I do not think so called "free" health care would be any better. I do not know anything about the system over in the UK, but I have heard stories about the Canadian system from friends and family that make me very glad we do not have that system.

At What Point is Crowd Funding OK?

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