Wedding Etiquette Forum

New twist on a PPD

So, I've just come home from a vacation to the Dominican Republic with my SO and I'd like to share an experience with you all that we had there. Cliff notes: A couple we met on the plane ride to DR asked us to be their MOH and BM that weekend, and as it turns out, it was just a commitment ceremony because they weren't ever going to get legally married due to the much-higher tax bracket they'd enter if they did.

On the plane ride from the US to DR, we met a couple seated right beside us who was going there to get married. It was just the two of them, as it was just too difficult for them to get their VIPs all on the same page schedule-wise and, after 2 years of engagement, they just decided to go ahead and elope. No problem, I thought, to each their own and what a beautiful place to do it. The bride and I started chatting and I mentioned being a makeup artist, and she asked me if I would come to her resort and do her wedding makeup (she also offered to pay me to do it). I told her that I'd be happy to do that, free of charge, since it would cost her to get me a guest pass onto her resort when her wedding package included makeup services that she'd already paid for. 

Next thing you know, they were asking if we would stand up with them as their MOH and BM. They said they'd really love to have someone there supporting them, and we just bonded on their 3.5 hour flight. We thought, ok! Let's do it! My SO has never even been to a wedding before and this was his first time on a legitimate vacation (as in, not just a weekend roadtrip to NYC) and we both figured this would certainly be a great story to tell. Plus, the couple was super nice and they were actually very awesome plane-mates, so what the hell.

The day of the wedding, we went to their resort and we were both provided with guest passes. While I got the bride ready, the groom and my SO hung out at the bar and had a snack and a few drinks. Then we went down to the ceremony, which was absolutely gorgeous and very nice to be a part of. Afterwards, we had dinner at the restaurant on the resort that they'd made reservations for. All in all, the wedding was beautiful, we were hosted generously, and we have a cool story to tell.

Now for the PPD part.... at one point during the evening, they told us that this was actually just a commitment ceremony and that they weren't going to be legally married ever, at any point, back in the US. They said that with their incomes combined, it would cost them nearly $30k more a year in taxes. They said that they'd already been living together as husband and wife for years (although not under common-law as their state doesn't recognize it), she was in fact going to change her last name when they got home, and this wedding was just about doing something concrete to mark their lifelong commitment to each other. 

How do you yall feel about that? I can't recall ever reading on here about a PPD that was actually taking the place of a wedding. While one part of me feels like it's a little fraudulent to hold yourselves out as married without actually being so in order to avoid paying higher taxes, I suppose it's not a problem for the millions of other couples in the world who live together without being married. I just couldn't imagine going through with the whole thing and knowing that I'm not actually coming out legally married on the other end.... when we say a PPD is just playing dress-up because it's a reenactment, this REALLY struck me as playing dress up! 

Re: New twist on a PPD

  • That is certainly different!
    What did you think would happen if you walked up to a group of internet strangers and told them to get shoehorned by their lady doc?~StageManager14
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  • That's interesting- not just the ceremony, but also becoming instant friends with these people. Overall, I'm cool with it. 

    To me it seems a weird reason not to get married, but at the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with having a commitment ceremony. It's not like they made a bunch of friends and family fly to the DR so they could "pretend" to get married. Even if they did have friends and family come to the DR, as long as they were upfront about what they were doing and hosted everyone properly, nothing wrong with that.

    It's not what I would choose, because I see value in marriage, but not everyone has the same view and I think that is OK. Friends of ours have said they will not get married, but they live together, plan on children one day, etc.... my friend (one half of the couple) just does not value the act of marrying (why exactly I am not sure), and her boyfriend/common-law is OK with that. I keep encouraging them to have a commitment ceremony because I think it would be lovely ;). Otherwise, lots of people live together common-law and no one thinks twice about it. In Canada common-law is recognized and the government will tax you as such anyway ;)
  • @AddieCake yes, "different" and "unique" are two of the first words that keep springing to my mind when I tell people this story lol just a very different experience.

    @SP29 The fact that we all bonded over rather copious amounts of vodka on the flight certainly helped launch the instant friendship lmao but, they were just two very cool people and apparently they thought the same of us.
     I'm just kinda torn between two thoughts about the whole thing. On the one hand, while I also value the concept of marriage, I see no reason why a couple can't formally commit to one another without becoming legal husband and wife. On the other hand, just as much as I think it's wrong to be legally married and pretend you're not (for the sake of having a PPD later), a part of me feels like it's also kinda wrong to pretend to be husband and wife when you're actually not.

    Either way, I know this is all a moot point because my signature is on the Witness line of their certificate, and I definitely support their union. I was just curious of other's thoughts. Also, just to reiterate: hosted beautifully! My SO was invited to participate! And amazing vanilla almond wedding cake (that was WAY too big for four people, so after we had our share, we asked the staff to let us cut it up and the four of us served it to the rest of the dining room lol)!
  • Well, they didn't lie to you about their status or keep it secret!

    As long as they're not pretending to be married and claiming legal and other benefits of marriage while they're not legally married, I can live with that.
  • Seniors sometimes do this to avoid complicating their estates, but I have never heard of young people doing this.  Why would they want to do this?  I am clueless.
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  • We thought long and hard about not legally marrying due to tax implications. We're both six figure earners, so it pushed us into a brutal tax bracket. We opted to marry legally anyway as we won't be in this situation too long since DH will retire in 5-7 years. I hate to say it, but we pay more in taxes than a lot of people make. It sucks.

    That being said, I'm glad that this couple eloped. If they were keeping things on the DL that it wasn't a legal marriage, AND for the reason they noted, it would certainly rub people the wrong way.

     







  • mlg78mlg78 member
    500 Love Its 1000 Comments Second Anniversary 5 Answers
    edited January 2015
    I see nothing wrong with this.  If it'd been a secret and they'd hauled a bunch of family and friends there to put on this big event that was supposed to be a marriage ceremony, then yes, it's a PPD.  It was simply a nice commitment ceremony and they shared vows with one another. I'd sort of compare this to same sex commitment ceremonies for states where marriage isn't legal and that's certainly not considered a PPD.  Also, do they possibly live in a state that has common law marriages?
  • I'm ok with this because 1. They eloped and didn't make anyone pay to go watch them and 2. cos they're not planning on getting married later.  

    I see it as if DH and I did a private vow renewal every year to celebrate while on vacation.  It's not impacting anyone else, so I'm cool with it.  

  • Well... I also see nothing wrong with this but they could do legal separation of their assets and get married.  

    FI and I are doing this within our pre-nup, that way what is his is his and what is mine is mine, but what we own together is ours. 

    Anywho, sounds like a nice time and possibly a good friendship 


  • As long as they're not lying to anyone, I'm cool with it.

    What a crazy story.

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  • It was a really wonderful time, and yes all of their VIP family members and friends knew what was going on. The only cost we incurred was $20 for a taxi to and from their resort, so practically nothing; they hosted us before & after, and paid for our guest passes to come onto their resort. Much more generous than many of the DW horror stories we see on this board about couples forcing guests to book week-long vacations and things like that.

    @Jells2dot0 I'm surprised to learn that this happens more than I thought, you almost always hear of the tax breaks that married couples get, not the tax increases. 
  • It was a really wonderful time, and yes all of their VIP family members and friends knew what was going on. The only cost we incurred was $20 for a taxi to and from their resort, so practically nothing; they hosted us before & after, and paid for our guest passes to come onto their resort. Much more generous than many of the DW horror stories we see on this board about couples forcing guests to book week-long vacations and things like that.


    @Jells2dot0 I'm surprised to learn that this happens more than I thought, you almost always hear of the tax breaks that married couples get, not the tax increases. 
    Nooope, the breaks are pretty rare nowadays. Unless you both make very little money, or there's a big income disparity between you, it's usually what's called a "marriage penalty." There was a thread on CC about this a few months ago. :)

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  • It was a really wonderful time, and yes all of their VIP family members and friends knew what was going on. The only cost we incurred was $20 for a taxi to and from their resort, so practically nothing; they hosted us before & after, and paid for our guest passes to come onto their resort. Much more generous than many of the DW horror stories we see on this board about couples forcing guests to book week-long vacations and things like that.

    @Jells2dot0 I'm surprised to learn that this happens more than I thought, you almost always hear of the tax breaks that married couples get, not the tax increases. 
    Nooope, the breaks are pretty rare nowadays. Unless you both make very little money, or there's a big income disparity between you, it's usually what's called a "marriage penalty." There was a thread on CC about this a few months ago. :)
    I really should wander over to some other boards. I just like it here best :)
  • It was a really wonderful time, and yes all of their VIP family members and friends knew what was going on. The only cost we incurred was $20 for a taxi to and from their resort, so practically nothing; they hosted us before & after, and paid for our guest passes to come onto their resort. Much more generous than many of the DW horror stories we see on this board about couples forcing guests to book week-long vacations and things like that.

    @Jells2dot0 I'm surprised to learn that this happens more than I thought, you almost always hear of the tax breaks that married couples get, not the tax increases. 
    Nooope, the breaks are pretty rare nowadays. Unless you both make very little money, or there's a big income disparity between you, it's usually what's called a "marriage penalty." There was a thread on CC about this a few months ago. :)
    DH and I have a large income disparity (he makes more than twice what I make), but we will still get screwed if we file jointly. Until my own salary pushes me into the next tax bracket, we'll be filing separately. Filing jointly, I'd lose the medical expense deduction because our medical expenses would not meet the minimum. It's all kinds of screwy.
    ~*~*~*~*~

  • On the OP, I don't really see anything wrong with the exercise, it's different for sure. It's not like they lied to people, or threw a big fake wedding and asked for gifts. 

    It's true for high income couples that the tax effect is not good. With the salaries FI and I make right now the highest marginal rate that applies to us will be the same but more of our salaries will be subject to it. On the other hand there are other good legal protections associated with being married. For example, if you're not married your SO is not your heir at law, so if you die without a valid will they get nothing from your estate. Couples just have to weight the benefits. 
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  • A lot of things can become complicated if you are not legally married, like power of attorney- if they are in a car accident one doesn't have the legal right to make decisions and stuff like that. Pensions, life insurances, bank accounts, and other things that automatically go to a spouse upon death would be really hard to fight for if you were not legally married. I personally wouldn't take that risk just to avoid taxes.

    Like others have said, they didn't drag a bunch of unsuspecting guests down there and lie so good for them! Buuuut, I would feel like I were lying everytime I referred to him as my husband. In my eyes, they did this ceremony and consider themselves married so that's how they will address each other which is essentially a lie everyday to everyone.

                                                                     

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  • I agree with the PP who mentioned it seems like the Commitment ceremonies that gay couples had/have in states that don't legally recognize marriage.  

    Although any of us can stand in our living rooms and make promises to each other, I can see how taking a special trip and having witnesses gives greater weight to the promises. I imagine they're probably taking other steps to ensure they don't leave each other out in the cold if one dies.  Besides beneficiaries on retirement accounts or the like, I would think they're taking care of wills and whatnot. 
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  • As long as 2 people are honest, I see no issue with it. Personally, I wouldn't do it since I value the religious and legal aspects of marriage, but that's a personal choice.

    What always concerns me though is the risk of NOT having the legal side, especially when the unexpected or unforeseen things come up. Gay and lesbian couples fight for this, because it is important, and when money gets involved due to inheritances, people get MEAN in ways you may never expect. Even "ironclad" wills can fall apart in court, and the right to make medical decisions can be taken away by a court when a family objects to an unmarried partners choice.  An uncle from my grandfathers previous marriage had a will, in which gave his estate to his partner. When he died, the uncles brother (shared dad, diff mom from my side of the family) fought the will in court and won, leaving the elderly, disabled partner homeless. It was only when the siblings from the 2nd marriage got involved and the estate got split up in 8ths was the home saved--7 of the 8 siblings gave their inheritance to their brothers partner, although the evil brother from the first marriage kept his portion of the estate (it was a 2 year court battle, ughhh). 

    Because of situations like this, there is no way I'm not signing the paperwork. Both FI and I make in the very low 6 figures, but the protections offered by a legal marriage far outweigh the $1-$2K in marriage penalty we're going to pay. 
  • I agree with the PP who mentioned it seems like the Commitment ceremonies that gay couples had/have in states that don't legally recognize marriage.  

    Although any of us can stand in our living rooms and make promises to each other, I can see how taking a special trip and having witnesses gives greater weight to the promises. I imagine they're probably taking other steps to ensure they don't leave each other out in the cold if one dies.  Besides beneficiaries on retirement accounts or the like, I would think they're taking care of wills and whatnot. 
    I am an estate planning attorney and you'd be surprised how many people put this off for "later". That is fine unless something happens. 
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  • That's definitely a cool story! I personally don't have a problem with this, they're being honest and upfront.

    I am pretty clueless with this tax stuff, though. Can't they be legally married and just file their taxes separately? I thought married couples had the option to file jointly or separately? Not that I really even know what that means!
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  • @pinkcow your bracket still changes. If you click single then you're at the low bracket until you hit 50k (just an example not actual number), if you click married filing separately then you're at the low bracket only up to 40k (again not exact). So no it's not the same as filing separately, the IRS screws you. 

                                                                     

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  • UO here: this kind of seems like a form of tax fraud/evasion. They are living together and sharing expenses; why shouldn't they pay taxes based on their combined income?

    (Flame away!)
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  • wrigleyvillewrigleyville member
    2500 Comments Fifth Anniversary 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited January 2015
    UO here: this kind of seems like a form of tax fraud/evasion. They are living together and sharing expenses; why shouldn't they pay taxes based on their combined income?

    (Flame away!)
    Because roommates share expenses too. You'd have to apply that law to every apartment containing college students and other types of adult roommates.
  • UO here: this kind of seems like a form of tax fraud/evasion. They are living together and sharing expenses; why shouldn't they pay taxes based on their combined income?

    (Flame away!)

    If states or the federal govt wanted to fix it, they could. Its called common law marriage. Its just not very popular and only a few states do it. Because there is a solution, I wouldn't call it fraud. I would call it states and the fed govt preferring to leave things the way they are. Note--common law marriage is a little more complicated than just living together, but buying a house together, sharing a joint bank or credit card account, or other things will qualify you as married in Texas at least.
  • UO here: this kind of seems like a form of tax fraud/evasion. They are living together and sharing expenses; why shouldn't they pay taxes based on their combined income?

    (Flame away!)
    That's kinda how I felt too, but similar to what @wrigleyville said, if that's the case then every single household with two or more adults should be forced to be pay taxes, too. There is no law that says two adults in a relationship HAVE to get married, so I guess this is one of the perks of that.
  • What a fun story!  I don't see anything wrong with what they did, though I do find it slightly irksome when a couple refers to themselves as husband/wife when they actually aren't.  My only exception to that slight side-eye is if a same sex couple who would LIKE to be legally married, but was forced to have a commitment ceremony instead, refers to themselves as husband/wife.

    Plus, I see people ALL the time referring to themselves as husband/wife...whether they had any kind of commitment ceremony at all.  And most of the time there is no reason whatsoever for them not to get married.  So I just find it odd to use the terms, but then have something against following through.

    I remember a story my aunt told me.  She had a job in a doctor's office on a military base.  There was a regular patient who came in often.  Had two sons with her "husband" and wore a wedding ring.  One day, my aunt noticed the woman had marked "single" on a form.  She thought it was an error and pointed it out to the woman.  Who slyly smiled and said, "I'm actually not married.  Military widow."  (Though I think nowadays military widows/widowers can choose to take a lump sum instead of monthly income).

    And yes, there can be huge and tragic legal ramifications of not being legally married, but those are the gambles people choose to take.     

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  • teddygirl9teddygirl9 member
    Knottie Warrior 500 Love Its 500 Comments Name Dropper
    edited January 2015

    This was very interesting to read, both the OP and the comments. I'm not 100% sure how Canada works, but I know we just enacted a new 'income shifting' tax break. So if one partner does make significantly more, they can 'shift' some of that income onto the other partner. So for example if one person makes 100k and one makes 0, they can split it so that each file for 50k (there are limitations and whatnot, so these numbers may not be totally correct). Anyways, it's kind of interesting.

     

    We also have common law, which gives identical benefits to couples as if they were married, but I do not know if its manditory to take advantage of. For example, me and SO bought a house together, so we share a mortgage and we have one joint bank account, but everything else is still seperate (phone, car insurance, chequing accounts), and we are not even on each other's work benefits. So I think we CAN take advantage of that, but we haven't yet.

     

    Personally, if I were going to be taxed an extra 30k, I'd probably hold off doing it legally too!

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  • UO here: this kind of seems like a form of tax fraud/evasion. They are living together and sharing expenses; why shouldn't they pay taxes based on their combined income?

    (Flame away!)
    Because roommates share expenses too. You'd have to apply that law to every apartment containing college students and other types of adult roommates.
    I shared the cable bill with my roommate. I didn't share her hospital bill when she broke her arm. Then I moved out and had no more responsibility for her cable bill at all. Roommates aren't life partners. 
  • And for more odd stuff to throw in the "common law" marriage pile.  I worked for a large company a about 8 years ago that would allow an employee to add someone they lived with (not married) to the health policy, but only if they were the SAME sex.  So, I couldn't add my b/f I'd been living with for over 5 years (now my DH), but if I'd had a platonic female roommate who had just moved in the day before, I could have added her.

    While I certainly applauded them for their efforts to be inclusive of same sex couples not allowed to marry (at the time, few states had this option), I can't help that it still struck me as odd they didn't just expand the policy to any adult living in your household or any adult living in your household for longer than X time.

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