@holyguacamole79 do you honestly not see what a bad decision this would be for churches? Church attendance is at an all time low across the country. People are leaving religious organizations in record numbers. Three Christian schools in my area have had to close in the past two years because of low enrollment and they couldn't afford to keep there doors open. I am in freaking Kentucky and enrollment of Christian schools is low. If it is that low heere imagine how it must be in the rest of the country. If religion in this country wants to survive it needs to be more inclusive not less.
I went to New Years Mass at a church where the seating capacity was 2400. It was standing room only. There have been 2 new Catholic high schools here in Houston in the past 5 years. We had a youth day at our church and had 750+ students from grades 6-12 show up. From where I sit, the church is doing fine.
@holyguacamole79 do you honestly not see what a bad decision this would be for churches? Church attendance is at an all time low across the country. People are leaving religious organizations in record numbers. Three Christian schools in my area have had to close in the past two years because of low enrollment and they couldn't afford to keep there doors open. I am in freaking Kentucky and enrollment of Christian schools is low. If it is that low heere imagine how it must be in the rest of the country. If religion in this country wants to survive it needs to be more inclusive not less.
I went to New Years Mass at a church where the seating capacity was 2400. It was standing room only. There have been 2 new Catholic high schools here in Houston in the past 5 years. We had a youth day at our church and had 750+ students from grades 6-12 show up. From where I sit, the church is doing fine.
@pinkrevenge , we most likely run in different circles. The friends I know who married in the church would have had it no other way.
Well my mom's side is Catholic, my ILs are Catholic, and a decent number of my friends are Catholic. But only a handful still consider themselves as deeply involved in the church because they've been pretty unhappy about what's been going on. I know a decent number of them have been having crisis of faith. My husband left the church in his twenties and of my childhood homeschool Catholic friends, about a third of the kids are still deeply entrenched in the church, and of them two are starting to have doubts themselves. I can name maybe a handful of loved ones who are still fully integrated in the church with no qualms. The rest are starting to lean away from the church or left / were thrown out.
Is there a reason you're taking what I have to say so personally? Your tone is getting super-defensive and I'm not saying anything I think warrants it.
@pinkrevenge , I'm honestly not taking offense to your comments. I'm just stating that we have different people in our circles of families / friends, which gives us different perspectives. I'll be the first to admit that I live in a Catholic bubble. I'm actually a bit liberal compared to some friends. All I'm saying is that we have different people in our lives that help form these perceptions. Not defensive at all. We cool.
@holyguacamole79 do you honestly not see what a bad decision this would be for churches? Church attendance is at an all time low across the country. People are leaving religious organizations in record numbers. Three Christian schools in my area have had to close in the past two years because of low enrollment and they couldn't afford to keep there doors open. I am in freaking Kentucky and enrollment of Christian schools is low. If it is that low heere imagine how it must be in the rest of the country. If religion in this country wants to survive it needs to be more inclusive not less.
I went to New Years Mass at a church where the seating capacity was 2400. It was standing room only. There have been 2 new Catholic high schools here in Houston in the past 5 years. We had a youth day at our church and had 750+ students from grades 6-12 show up. From where I sit, the church is doing fine.
You sound incredibly defensive. What was the actual motivation behind posting this article if you're just going to respond like this to everyone?
@holyguacamole79 do you honestly not see what a bad decision this would be for churches? Church attendance is at an all time low across the country. People are leaving religious organizations in record numbers. Three Christian schools in my area have had to close in the past two years because of low enrollment and they couldn't afford to keep there doors open. I am in freaking Kentucky and enrollment of Christian schools is low. If it is that low heere imagine how it must be in the rest of the country. If religion in this country wants to survive it needs to be more inclusive not less.
I went to New Years Mass at a church where the seating capacity was 2400. It was standing room only. There have been 2 new Catholic high schools here in Houston in the past 5 years. We had a youth day at our church and had 750+ students from grades 6-12 show up. From where I sit, the church is doing fine.
You sound incredibly defensive. What was the actual motivation behind posting this article if you're just going to respond like this to everyone?
Y'all, I'm sitting here enjoying a Margarita. I'm sharing that my perception is different than yours, and that's okay. Considering the person who originally shared this article with me aligns more with yall on these issues, I honestly thought it would be received well.
You really need to not get defensive about this. So we don't share your perspective, so what? If you wanted a bunch of people to go "neato!" you should have posted it on a different board that is more religiously like-minded. Chitchat is a much more blended board and as such, opinions will vary.
I feel like this discussion has been pretty mild and civil.
I'm actually quite chill right now. It's hard to "see" that online, but I am. Want a Margarita with me?
ETA - just saw your update. I hadn't thought of the implications that many of you brought up. As I said, a friend of mine shared this with me. She's a liberal, agnostic lesbian who said she liked this idea. I read it through her eyes and thought the women here would have a similar perspective since the "vibe" of this forum matches her views.
Marriage is a legal contract in most of the world. It is only the Catholic church that has the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony. Protestant marriages are legal marriages that ask for the blessing of God, but they are not one of the three sacraments recognized by protestant churches. Many churches are moving towards blessing same sex marriages. I think this will happen with some churches, and not with others. A courthouse marriage is no different than a protestant church marriage. Both are legal, and God is in the courthouse, too! @wrigleyville, you sound bitter. What church were you affiliated with and why did you leave? I am so sorry.
To the bolded: Wow, is it really that distressing for you to grasp that there are people in the world who have different opinions about religion than you, that you have to resort to passive aggressive, condescending pity remarks that they don't need? This was so unnecessary and just gross.
@holyguacamole79 do you honestly not see what a bad decision this would be for churches? Church attendance is at an all time low across the country. People are leaving religious organizations in record numbers. Three Christian schools in my area have had to close in the past two years because of low enrollment and they couldn't afford to keep there doors open. I am in freaking Kentucky and enrollment of Christian schools is low. If it is that low heere imagine how it must be in the rest of the country. If religion in this country wants to survive it needs to be more inclusive not less.
I went to New Years Mass at a church where the seating capacity was 2400. It was standing room only. There have been 2 new Catholic high schools here in Houston in the past 5 years. We had a youth day at our church and had 750+ students from grades 6-12 show up. From where I sit, the church is doing fine.
You live in Texas.
I'm sure living in Texas does make a difference. Where I am churches are barely staying open.
@jdluvr06, precisely. And I know things are more bleak in different parts of the country. I used to work down the street from Lakewood, the forder Rockets stadium turned into a church.
@pinkrevenge , I saw your update and TK mobile ate my response. I think you bring good points to the table and appreciate the persoective. As I mentioned, this was shared by a person who espouses political / religious views similar to this community, and I thought the group would agree with her. Maybe my surprise came off as defensiveness.
Fwiw, this article was shared by a religion scholar who is an agnostic lesbian. She made the comment that ministers / priests should not be administering the state's work anyway. I'm not so bold to think that everyone would share her beliefs, but she shares a lot of beliefs y'all espouse, so I thought the community would appreciate it. Thanks for the perspective.
If churches really wanted to get out of state business, they'd all stop performing marriages altogether. But they don't want to do that, they just want to provide some people a more marriagey marriage than other people.
If the government wanted to take religion out of marriage, they would require a civil ceremony, and then people could choose to add a religious blessing on top of that which the government would, in turn, butt out of. That would be a true government-driven separation of church and state. That's not what's happening here.
Who the author was or where they stand religiously is irrelevant to the point of the article. Mr. Rogers could've hopped out his grave and fired up the ipad to write it and everyone would be bullshit about what the church is doing.
I can't get with anybody who would take Leviticus's stupid ass seriously, and that is where a lot of this hateful bullshit comes from. If anyone is part of something that can't get down with a basic human principle (LOVE, regardless of gender), then they ain't worth my fuckin' time and it is VERY telling of a person's character if they can't see beyond some lines that fool motherfucker Leviticus narrow-minded pearl-clutchin' ass wrote back when the WHEEL WAS BARELY EVEN A THING and people thought the sun revolved around the earth.
Leviticus and them lines about Sodom in Genesis ain't my fuckin jam and anyone who is down with that horse shit can keep it to they goddamn self. You (general you) partake of that shit, whatever, do you. But know 100% without a doubt that it says a lot about who a person is if they struggle so much with the fact that everyone isn't like them.
Here's my problem. How many years have members of the clergy been allowed to perform legally binding marriages? Awhile right? Like a couple centuries.
Ok so they didn't decide to pack up their bags and want to separate themselves right up until gay people started being treated the same as straight people.
The government has allowed lots of things churches don't agree with. But it's the queers that put them over the edge.
@holyguacamole79 do you honestly not see what a bad decision this would be for churches? Church attendance is at an all time low across the country. People are leaving religious organizations in record numbers. Three Christian schools in my area have had to close in the past two years because of low enrollment and they couldn't afford to keep there doors open. I am in freaking Kentucky and enrollment of Christian schools is low. If it is that low heere imagine how it must be in the rest of the country. If religion in this country wants to survive it needs to be more inclusive not less.
I went to New Years Mass at a church where the seating capacity was 2400. It was standing room only. There have been 2 new Catholic high schools here in Houston in the past 5 years. We had a youth day at our church and had 750+ students from grades 6-12 show up. From where I sit, the church is doing fine.
You live in Texas.
I'm sure living in Texas does make a difference. Where I am churches are barely staying open.
Do you live in Texas too? My point was there are a lot of immigrants from Catholic countries going to Texas, and that could be a reason for a higher number of Catholic churches being full. Across the nation, the Catholic church is losing members at a higher rate than any other religion.
Seriously. I'll take it a lot more seriously if they follow the other shit Leviticus laid down, such as "no haircuts" and "no shellfish".
The second you get a haircut and eat some motherfucking shrimp, you are a hypocrite, plain and simple. You can't say, "Oh, the Bible says so," and then ignore 90% of the other shit the Bible says. I refuse to take you (general "you") seriously if that's the case.
Seriously. I'll take it a lot more seriously if they follow the other shit Leviticus laid down, such as "no haircuts" and "no shellfish".
The second you get a haircut and eat some motherfucking shrimp, you are a hypocrite, plain and simple. You can't say, "Oh, the Bible says so," and then ignore 90% of the other shit the Bible says. I refuse to take you (general "you") seriously if that's the case.
Seriously. I'll take it a lot more seriously if they follow the other shit Leviticus laid down, such as "no haircuts" and "no shellfish".
The second you get a haircut and eat some motherfucking shrimp, you are a hypocrite, plain and simple. You can't say, "Oh, the Bible says so," and then ignore 90% of the other shit the Bible says. I refuse to take you (general "you") seriously if that's the case.
Sorry I got ranty, y'all. I spent too much time around FI's homophobic SUPER catholic uncle this weekend.
The same one who had to find a new church because he divorced his first wife and is big on shit-talking the gays like it makes him some kind of cool. Motherfucker almost met jesus this weekend.
Here's my problem. How many years have members of the clergy been allowed to perform legally binding marriages? Awhile right? Like a couple centuries.
Ok so they didn't decide to pack up their bags and want to separate themselves right up until gay people started being treated the same as straight people.
The government has allowed lots of things churches don't agree with. But it's the queers that put them over the edge.
This is exactly how it looks and even how the article framed it, and yeah, that's going to be a big problem for the church in more liberal-leaning areas / any churches that demand 7 billion expensive hoops for a couple who wants to be married.
Which is why the second big problem with this is that if they split, only wealthier individuals will be able to afford to be married by the church. I know not all churches will make a couple shell out the THOUSANDS my friend had to for her wedding, but those that do will be making it that much harder for people who don't have thousands to be married Catholic.
If you can't tell, my brain is still reeling over how much my friend had to pay to get married. I know I didn't even cover all the expenses she had, because once she said "mandatory $400 per couple pre-marital weekend camping trip" I noped the fuck out.
Hooooo child. They'd have to pay me to go camping.
@holyguacamole79 do you honestly not see what a bad decision this would be for churches? Church attendance is at an all time low across the country. People are leaving religious organizations in record numbers. Three Christian schools in my area have had to close in the past two years because of low enrollment and they couldn't afford to keep there doors open. I am in freaking Kentucky and enrollment of Christian schools is low. If it is that low heere imagine how it must be in the rest of the country. If religion in this country wants to survive it needs to be more inclusive not less.
I went to New Years Mass at a church where the seating capacity was 2400. It was standing room only. There have been 2 new Catholic high schools here in Houston in the past 5 years. We had a youth day at our church and had 750+ students from grades 6-12 show up. From where I sit, the church is doing fine.
You live in Texas.
I'm sure living in Texas does make a difference. Where I am churches are barely staying open.
Do you live in Texas too? My point was they're are a lot of immigrants from Catholic counties going to Texas, and that could be a reason for a higher number of Catholic churches being full. Across the nation, the Catholic church is losing members at a higher rate than any other religion.
Nope. I live in Kentucky. I wasn't just referring to Catholic Churches either. It is rather funny, in an ironic way, actually. Church attendence is down in the state the Creation Museum is located in.
Here's my problem. How many years have members of the clergy been allowed to perform legally binding marriages? Awhile right? Like a couple centuries.
Ok so they didn't decide to pack up their bags and want to separate themselves right up until gay people started being treated the same as straight people.
The government has allowed lots of things churches don't agree with. But it's the queers that put them over the edge.
Hooooo child. They'd have to pay me to go camping.
What? You mean you don't want to fork over that kind of money to be split into gender-divided cabins with army-style bunkers and a 10pm lights out set by an old church member and sit around a camp fire making s'mores and being warned of the dangers of premarrital sex in the form of a corny ghost story? Having to hear everyone's story of how they met before being served breakfast at the crack of dawn doesn't sound like a good time?
-yeah, my friend and her husband did not enjoy themselves. But it was pony up and endure or no church wedding.
Dammit, this is what I'm missing?!
I'll stay over here with my premarital sex, lights out when I want and smores from the comfort of my apartment
Hooooo child. They'd have to pay me to go camping.
What? You mean you don't want to fork over that kind of money to be split into gender-divided cabins with army-style bunkers and a 10pm lights out set by an old church member and sit around a camp fire making s'mores and being warned of the dangers of premarrital sex in the form of a corny ghost story? Having to hear everyone's story of how they met before being served breakfast at the crack of dawn doesn't sound like a good time?
-yeah, my friend and her husband did not enjoy themselves. But it was pony up and endure or no church wedding.
Hooooo child. They'd have to pay me to go camping.
What? You mean you don't want to fork over that kind of money to be split into gender-divided cabins with army-style bunkers and a 10pm lights out set by an old church member and sit around a camp fire making s'mores and being warned of the dangers of premarrital sex in the form of a corny ghost story? Having to hear everyone's story of how they met before being served breakfast at the crack of dawn doesn't sound like a good time?
-yeah, my friend and her husband did not enjoy themselves. But it was pony up and endure or no church wedding.
Re: Interesting Read Regarding Marriage, Religion, and Government
But only a handful still consider themselves as deeply involved in the church because they've been pretty unhappy about what's been going on. I know a decent number of them have been having crisis of faith. My husband left the church in his twenties and of my childhood homeschool Catholic friends, about a third of the kids are still deeply entrenched in the church, and of them two are starting to have doubts themselves. I can name maybe a handful of loved ones who are still fully integrated in the church with no qualms. The rest are starting to lean away from the church or left / were thrown out.
Is there a reason you're taking what I have to say so personally? Your tone is getting super-defensive and I'm not saying anything I think warrants it.
@pinkrevenge , I'm honestly not taking offense to your comments. I'm just stating that we have different people in our circles of families / friends, which gives us different perspectives. I'll be the first to admit that I live in a Catholic bubble. I'm actually a bit liberal compared to some friends. All I'm saying is that we have different people in our lives that help form these perceptions. Not defensive at all. We cool.
You sound incredibly defensive. What was the actual motivation behind posting this article if you're just going to respond like this to everyone?
Formerly martha1818
You sound incredibly defensive. What was the actual motivation behind posting this article if you're just going to respond like this to everyone?
Y'all, I'm sitting here enjoying a Margarita. I'm sharing that my perception is different than yours, and that's okay. Considering the person who originally shared this article with me aligns more with yall on these issues, I honestly thought it would be received well.ETA - just saw your update. I hadn't thought of the implications that many of you brought up. As I said, a friend of mine shared this with me. She's a liberal, agnostic lesbian who said she liked this idea. I read it through her eyes and thought the women here would have a similar perspective since the "vibe" of this forum matches her views.
Formerly martha1818
I'm sure living in Texas does make a difference. Where I am churches are barely staying open.
We good? Want a sip?
If the government wanted to take religion out of marriage, they would require a civil ceremony, and then people could choose to add a religious blessing on top of that which the government would, in turn, butt out of. That would be a true government-driven separation of church and state. That's not what's happening here.
I'm the fuck out.
Ok so they didn't decide to pack up their bags and want to separate themselves right up until gay people started being treated the same as straight people.
The government has allowed lots of things churches don't agree with. But it's the queers that put them over the edge.
I'm the fuck out.
I'm the fuck out.
Nope. I live in Kentucky. I wasn't just referring to Catholic Churches either. It is rather funny, in an ironic way, actually. Church attendence is down in the state the Creation Museum is located in.
Dammit, this is what I'm missing?!
I'll stay over here with my premarital sex, lights out when I want and smores from the comfort of my apartment
Formerly martha1818
I'm the fuck out.
Those camps are hell on Earth.