Marriage is a legal contract in most of the world. It is only the Catholic church that has the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony. Protestant marriages are legal marriages that ask for the blessing of God, but they are not one of the three sacraments recognized by protestant churches. Many churches are moving towards blessing same sex marriages. I think this will happen with some churches, and not with others. A courthouse marriage is no different than a protestant church marriage. Both are legal, and God is in the courthouse, too! @wrigleyville, you sound bitter. What church were you affiliated with and why did you leave? I am so sorry.
To the bolded: Wow, is it really that distressing for you to grasp that there are people in the world who have different opinions about religion than you, that you have to resort to passive aggressive, condescending pity remarks that they don't need? This was so unnecessary and just gross.
BACK OFF! I am allowed to express genuine concern. What is your problem today? Your posts are very aggressive towards almost everyone. Who the hell are you to judge other people? You obviously haven't read many of my posts if you have decided that I am a rigid religious person.
Only aggressive to people with condescending attitudes. I stand by my opinions.
You have certainly made an impression on me. I won't forget.
Marriage is a legal contract in most of the world. It is only the Catholic church that has the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony. Protestant marriages are legal marriages that ask for the blessing of God, but they are not one of the three sacraments recognized by protestant churches. Many churches are moving towards blessing same sex marriages. I think this will happen with some churches, and not with others. A courthouse marriage is no different than a protestant church marriage. Both are legal, and God is in the courthouse, too! @wrigleyville, you sound bitter. What church were you affiliated with and why did you leave? I am so sorry.
To the bolded: Wow, is it really that distressing for you to grasp that there are people in the world who have different opinions about religion than you, that you have to resort to passive aggressive, condescending pity remarks that they don't need? This was so unnecessary and just gross.
BACK OFF! I am allowed to express genuine concern. What is your problem today? Your posts are very aggressive towards almost everyone. Who the hell are you to judge other people? You obviously haven't read many of my posts if you have decided that I am a rigid religious person.
Only aggressive to people with condescending attitudes. I stand by my opinions.
You have certainly made an impression on me. I won't forget.
1. I don't believe CMGr's comment to Wriggley was condescending at all. In fact, it read to me as genuine concern and a legit question. I feel like anyone reading it as otherwise is just once again jumping on the "CMGr is old fashioned/annoying/condescending" bandwagon and just immediately getting their fur up,and reading shit that isn't even there.
2. I am pretty surprised OP has chosen to embroil herself in yet another conversation on this topic after how poorly it has gone for her a few times in the past.
What did you think would happen if you walked up to a group of internet strangers and told them to get shoehorned by their lady doc?~StageManager14
What exactly is cool about the church throwing a hissy fit because, THE GAYS?
Last group they can throw public tantrums about? I don't get it. It's just yet another round of what has failed before. How many times does something have to be a clear failure before people learn that discrimination is wrong?
When I first saw this article, the friend who shared it said "Good idea. They should never have served as agents of state in the first place. " As I said previously, she is an agnostic lesbian whose views generally are in line with many of yours. I had no intention of offending people, and I apologize for doing so. For what it's worth, many of you have taught me a lot and for that I am thankful. Have a good Sunday, everyone.
When I first saw this article, the friend who shared it said "Good idea. They should never have served as agents of state in the first place. " As I said previously, she is an agnostic lesbian whose views generally are in line with many of yours. I had no intention of offending people, and I apologize for doing so. For what it's worth, many of you have taught me a lot and for that I am thankful. Have a good Sunday, everyone.
This just tells me that you can't think for yourself. Which is unsurprising, considering you still oppose gay marriage since your church tells you to, even though you claim to be totes cool with teh gays. "Someone else said it was good! It must be good!" No, what your token lez friend was implying was that churches have already taken far too much power and never should have conducted marriage ceremonies to begin with, which is obviously not a viewpoint you share.
Does The Church still say that voting to support marriage equality and abortion rights is a sin, even if you don't get gay-married or have an abortion? When they stop that, I'll believe they want out of government business.
One church near me took a different route- they wanted no part in performing a legal ceremony that treated their parishioners differently, so they stopped performing all marriages, gay or straight, until gay marriage was legalized. Now that it is, they marry all couples, including gay ones, even though the official church position prohibits gay marriage.
I'm not sure I agree with their stance but I respect it. At every stage the church has taken considerable risk on itself (censure, loss of membership, financial losses) for what it believes to be true. Instead of placing that burden on someone else.
My friend has a daughter and son-in-law, at the time of their marriage they were both in the military. Now, only he is. At that time, they were only together for a week before each was deployed in different parts of the world.
They asked the mayor to marry them, he refused. Two military people on active duty!
The mayor refused because he won't do gay weddings, so he won't do any weddings. No exceptions for a couple (who isn't gay, but that isn't the point) who is defending his ass along with the rest of the country.
Don't know if this applies to this discussion, but this gay marriage thing has got to be accepted. It isn't going anywhere and people are people first.
No, I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth. No church is "the church", at least not since the Orthodox church split from the Catholic church in 1054 AD. My point is that it isn't fair to lump all Christian churches together, since they vary so much in their beliefs and practices. It is wrong to stereotype any group, isn't it?
No, I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth. No church is "the church", at least not since the Orthodox church split from the Catholic church in 1054 AD. My point is that it isn't fair to lump all Christian churches together, since they vary so much in their beliefs and practices. It is wrong to stereotype any group, isn't it?
You do constantly tell us how your church is different, which is great.
I'm not lumping all churches together. I'm lumping all discriminatory/holier then thou/"if you're not with us you're against us" churches together. My annoyance in that post isn't with all churches/religion in general, it's with you constantly repeating yourself. We got it. If your church doesn't act this way, we're not talking about your church. Nothing to get defensive about.
Does The Church still say that voting to support marriage equality and abortion rights is a sin, even if you don't get gay-married or have an abortion? When they stop that, I'll believe they want out of government business.
Good point. I think I read somewhere that the Catholic church didn't allow Patrick (?) Kennedy to take communion because he voted for something the Church opposed. Um he's a representative of the state of Rhode Island. He kind of has to vote based on his constituents not what his religious teachings tell him. Ugh.
I am simply objecting to using the words "the church" to describe the ones you are referring to. I get that, too. I have been in so many different churches - Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Baptist, and I had a family of Catholic relatives. It is like saying "the Gays are.....", or "the blacks are ...." Not acceptable. So why is it OK to say "the church does...." when so many Christian churches do not fit this stereotype?
I do not approve of stereotyping ANY group, whether it is religious, racial, sexually preference - whatever. I could not be a member of any church that promotes the hatred you describe. The problem is that the media gives them so much coverage. They are very vocal, but they do not speak for the majority of Christians. I know there are people out there who call themselves "Christian" but who do not practice tolerance. I think Jesus would have been very sad.
When you ladies refer to "the church", which church are you talking about?
When I am speaking with my family, "the church" means The Church of Latter Day Saints because that is what we all went to. In general, I think "the church" refers to Roman Catholic, or at least Catholic, since it is such a popular one.
When I say "the church" I am generalizing, that's kind of the point. So when I say "medical attention not within the teachings of the church" I mean "Any church that is in control of / setting the guidelines for a hospital". While that might be a catholic church, it could be ANY church that falls within the parameters of owning a non-church entity and setting religious guidelines.
Seriously, not every discussion needs to dissolve into "Not all (insert whatever thing was being mentioned in general terms that was obviously not meant to represent every and all of that thing)!"
I understand your concern about privately owned hospitals. I don't want to even touch that issue! But the Catholic Church is not the same as "the church". Please be more specific in posts when you are referring to it. Thank you.
I am simply objecting to using the words "the church" to describe the ones you are referring to. I get that, too. I have been in so many different churches - Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Baptist, and I had a family of Catholic relatives. It is like saying "the Gays are.....", or "the blacks are ...." Not acceptable. So why is it OK to say "the church does...." when so many Christian churches do not fit this stereotype?
I do not approve of stereotyping ANY group, whether it is religious, racial, sexually preference - whatever. I could not be a member of any church that promotes the hatred you describe. The problem is that the media gives them so much coverage. They are very vocal, but they do not speak for the majority of Christians. I know there are people out there who call themselves "Christian" but who do not practice tolerance. I think Jesus would have been very sad.
Well considering most Christians churches use the general "the church" when speaking of various Christian religions then I think it is ok for people on a MB to do so.
1. I don't believe CMGr's comment to Wriggley was condescending at all. In fact, it read to me as genuine concern and a legit question. I feel like anyone reading it as otherwise is just once again jumping on the "CMGr is old fashioned/annoying/condescending" bandwagon and just immediately getting their fur up,and reading shit that isn't even there.
Seriously. I didn't take it that way at all. I PM'd her to let her know I wasn't upset and that I'd read it in the tone intended.
If I say "the church" it's usually in reference to local excessively conservative Catholic diocese. I typically don't call the aggressively hyper conservative Protestant versions churches, I do find they are more cult like and refer to them as such.
I'm Congregational line United Church of Christ for myself.
Was raised cult Lutheran type. Any church that supports an abusive drug addict over another simply because drug addict is male is not one for me. Any church that considers the racist, bigoted narcissist that is my mother of requirement to be a positive role model and woman's leader is not one for me. I left, by and large the cult has shunned me. The narcissist hasn't because she needs someone to belittle and I was her favorite choice.
If I say "the church" it's usually in reference to local excessively conservative Catholic diocese. I typically don't call the aggressively hyper conservative Protestant versions churches, I do find they are more cult like and refer to them as such.
I'm Congregational line United Church of Christ for myself.
Was raised cult Lutheran type. Any church that supports an abusive drug addict over another simply because drug addict is male is not one for me. Any church that considers the racist, bigoted narcissist that is my mother of requirement to be a positive role model and woman's leader is not one for me. I left, by and large the cult has shunned me. The narcissist hasn't because she needs someone to belittle and I was her favorite choice.
I feel for you! My late mother didn't attend daughter's wedding. She didn't want to be around all those "Chinese people". So happy she missed it!
I put up with everything because it's family. She started up on calling my daughters defect mutants and racial slurs, I went oh fuck no. She screwed me up enough, I was sure not letting her destroy my babies. Went strictly no contact 47 months ago to the day, and never looked back. She still tries contacting me, I junk all email, voice mail and text, I shred all written mail. Any boxes get dumped straight in the trash. Yup, I'll eventually throw out stuff I left behind. I'll eventually miss "important" family news. I no longer care. I've tried opening a few random things, it's the same how my horrible ways are tearing the family apart, no racial slurs are to be in our family, etc... She can't admit she's wrong, she's truly a narcissist, so I have no hope for a relationship. I just work on getting her to mean nothing to me.
As one who has "been there", I strongly suggest you talk to a therapist, if you haven't already. There is an excellent book, Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Dr. Karyl McBride. It has helped a lot of daughters of narcissistic mothers.
So I haven't read the comments here yet. But it seems to me that by abdicating their right to sign the legal documentation, clergy are just making themselves more irrelevant than ever, and encouraging bullshit PPDs in the process. SOUNDS FUN.
Re: Interesting Read Regarding Marriage, Religion, and Government
I'm not sure I agree with their stance but I respect it. At every stage the church has taken considerable risk on itself (censure, loss of membership, financial losses) for what it believes to be true. Instead of placing that burden on someone else.
My friend has a daughter and son-in-law, at the time of their marriage they were both in the military. Now, only he is. At that time, they were only together for a week before each was deployed in different parts of the world.
They asked the mayor to marry them, he refused. Two military people on active duty!
The mayor refused because he won't do gay weddings, so he won't do any weddings. No exceptions for a couple (who isn't gay, but that isn't the point) who is defending his ass along with the rest of the country.
Don't know if this applies to this discussion, but this gay marriage thing has got to be accepted. It isn't going anywhere and people are people first.
We know, we know, your church is so much better and more welcoming. Cool.
No church is "the church", at least not since the Orthodox church split from the Catholic church in 1054 AD. My point is that it isn't fair to lump all Christian churches together, since they vary so much in their beliefs and practices. It is wrong to stereotype any group, isn't it?
I'm not lumping all churches together. I'm lumping all discriminatory/holier then thou/"if you're not with us you're against us" churches together. My annoyance in that post isn't with all churches/religion in general, it's with you constantly repeating yourself. We got it. If your church doesn't act this way, we're not talking about your church. Nothing to get defensive about.
I do not approve of stereotyping ANY group, whether it is religious, racial, sexually preference - whatever. I could not be a member of any church that promotes the hatred you describe. The problem is that the media gives them so much coverage. They are very vocal, but they do not speak for the majority of Christians. I know there are people out there who call themselves "Christian" but who do not practice tolerance. I think Jesus would have been very sad.
Well considering most Christians churches use the general "the church" when speaking of various Christian religions then I think it is ok for people on a MB to do so.
I'm Congregational line United Church of Christ for myself.
Was raised cult Lutheran type. Any church that supports an abusive drug addict over another simply because drug addict is male is not one for me. Any church that considers the racist, bigoted narcissist that is my mother of requirement to be a positive role model and woman's leader is not one for me. I left, by and large the cult has shunned me. The narcissist hasn't because she needs someone to belittle and I was her favorite choice.
I feel for you! My late mother didn't attend daughter's wedding. She didn't want to be around all those "Chinese people". So happy she missed it!
At least my girls aren't damaged by her.