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Interesting Read Regarding Marriage, Religion, and Government

124

Re: Interesting Read Regarding Marriage, Religion, and Government

  • CMGragain said:
    You have certainly made an impression on me.  I won't forget.


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    Pretty sure she doesn't care. 
  • What exactly is cool about the church throwing a hissy fit because, THE GAYS?

    Last group they can throw public tantrums about? I don't get it. It's just yet another round of what has failed before. How many times does something have to be a clear failure before people learn that discrimination is wrong?
  • edited June 2015
  • When I first saw this article, the friend who shared it said "Good idea. They should never have served as agents of state in the first place. " As I said previously, she is an agnostic lesbian whose views generally are in line with many of yours. I had no intention of offending people, and I apologize for doing so. For what it's worth, many of you have taught me a lot and for that I am thankful. Have a good Sunday, everyone.
  • edited January 2015
    Have a good Sunday
  • One church near me took a different route- they wanted no part in performing a legal ceremony that treated their parishioners differently, so they stopped performing all marriages, gay or straight, until gay marriage was legalized. Now that it is, they marry all couples, including gay ones, even though the official church position prohibits gay marriage.

    I'm not sure I agree with their stance but I respect it. At every stage the church has taken considerable risk on itself (censure, loss of membership, financial losses) for what it believes to be true. Instead of placing that burden on someone else.
  • My friend has a daughter and son-in-law, at the time of their marriage they were both in the military. Now, only he is. At that time, they were only together for a week before each was deployed in different parts of the world.

    They asked the mayor to marry them, he refused. Two military people on active duty!

    The mayor refused because he won't do gay weddings, so he won't do any weddings. No exceptions for a couple (who isn't gay, but that isn't the point) who is defending his ass along with the rest of the country.

    Don't know if this applies to this discussion, but this gay marriage thing has got to be accepted. It isn't going anywhere and people are people first.

  • edited June 2015
  • When you ladies refer to "the church", which church are you talking about?
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  • No, I didn't say that.  Don't put words in my mouth.
    No church is "the church", at least not since the Orthodox church split from the Catholic church in 1054 AD.  My point is that it isn't fair to lump all Christian churches together, since they vary so much in their beliefs and practices.  It is wrong to stereotype any group, isn't it?
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  • CMGragain said:

    No, I didn't say that.  Don't put words in my mouth.
    No church is "the church", at least not since the Orthodox church split from the Catholic church in 1054 AD.  My point is that it isn't fair to lump all Christian churches together, since they vary so much in their beliefs and practices.  It is wrong to stereotype any group, isn't it?

    You do constantly tell us how your church is different, which is great.

    I'm not lumping all churches together. I'm lumping all discriminatory/holier then thou/"if you're not with us you're against us" churches together. My annoyance in that post isn't with all churches/religion in general, it's with you constantly repeating yourself. We got it. If your church doesn't act this way, we're not talking about your church. Nothing to get defensive about.

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  • Does The Church still say that voting to support marriage equality and abortion rights is a sin, even if you don't get gay-married or have an abortion? When they stop that, I'll believe they want out of government business.
    Good point. I think I read somewhere that the Catholic church didn't allow Patrick (?) Kennedy to take communion because he voted for something the Church opposed. Um he's a representative of the state of Rhode Island. He kind of has to vote based on his constituents not what his religious teachings tell him. Ugh.
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  • I am simply objecting to using the words "the church" to describe the ones you are referring to.  I get that, too.  I have been in so many different churches - Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Baptist, and I had a family of Catholic relatives.  It is like saying "the Gays are.....", or "the blacks are ...."   Not acceptable.  So why is it OK to say "the church does...." when so many Christian churches do not fit this stereotype?

    I do not approve of stereotyping ANY group, whether it is religious, racial, sexually preference - whatever.  I could not be a member of any church that promotes the hatred you describe.  The problem is that the media gives them so much coverage.  They are very vocal, but they do not speak for the majority of Christians.  I know there are people out there who call themselves "Christian" but who do not practice tolerance.  I think Jesus would have been very sad.
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  • edited June 2015
  • CMGragain said:
    When you ladies refer to "the church", which church are you talking about?
    When I am speaking with my family, "the church" means The Church of Latter Day Saints because that is what we all went to.  In general, I think "the church" refers to Roman Catholic, or at least Catholic, since it is such a popular one.
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  • When I say "the church" I am generalizing, that's kind of the point. So when I say "medical attention not within the teachings of the church" I mean "Any church that is in control of / setting the guidelines for a hospital". While that might be a catholic church, it could be ANY church that falls within the parameters of owning a non-church entity and setting religious guidelines.

    Seriously, not every discussion needs to dissolve into "Not all (insert whatever thing was being mentioned in general terms that was obviously not meant to represent every and all of that thing)!"
    I understand your concern about privately owned hospitals.  I don't want to even touch that issue!  But the Catholic Church is not the same as "the church".  Please be more specific in posts when you are referring to it.  Thank you.
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  • Honestly, I thought all references to "the church" were regarding the Catholic church since that is what the OP was about. 
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  • CMGragain said:
    I am simply objecting to using the words "the church" to describe the ones you are referring to.  I get that, too.  I have been in so many different churches - Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Baptist, and I had a family of Catholic relatives.  It is like saying "the Gays are.....", or "the blacks are ...."   Not acceptable.  So why is it OK to say "the church does...." when so many Christian churches do not fit this stereotype?

    I do not approve of stereotyping ANY group, whether it is religious, racial, sexually preference - whatever.  I could not be a member of any church that promotes the hatred you describe.  The problem is that the media gives them so much coverage.  They are very vocal, but they do not speak for the majority of Christians.  I know there are people out there who call themselves "Christian" but who do not practice tolerance.  I think Jesus would have been very sad.

    Well considering most Christians churches use the general "the church" when speaking of various Christian religions then I think it is ok for people on a MB to do so.
  • AddieCake said:
    My 2 cents: 

    1. I don't believe CMGr's comment to Wriggley was condescending at all. In fact, it read to me as genuine concern and a legit question. I feel like anyone reading it as otherwise is just once again jumping on the "CMGr is old fashioned/annoying/condescending" bandwagon and just immediately getting their fur up,and reading shit that isn't even there.

    Seriously. I didn't take it that way at all. I PM'd her to let her know I wasn't upset and that I'd read it in the tone intended.
  • edited June 2015
  • If I say "the church" it's usually in reference to local excessively conservative Catholic diocese. I typically don't call the aggressively hyper conservative Protestant versions churches, I do find they are more cult like and refer to them as such.

    I'm Congregational line United Church of Christ for myself.

    Was raised cult Lutheran type. Any church that supports an abusive drug addict over another simply because drug addict is male is not one for me. Any church that considers the racist, bigoted narcissist that is my mother of requirement to be a positive role model and woman's leader is not one for me. I left, by and large the cult has shunned me. The narcissist hasn't because she needs someone to belittle and I was her favorite choice.
  • If I say "the church" it's usually in reference to local excessively conservative Catholic diocese. I typically don't call the aggressively hyper conservative Protestant versions churches, I do find they are more cult like and refer to them as such. I'm Congregational line United Church of Christ for myself. Was raised cult Lutheran type. Any church that supports an abusive drug addict over another simply because drug addict is male is not one for me. Any church that considers the racist, bigoted narcissist that is my mother of requirement to be a positive role model and woman's leader is not one for me. I left, by and large the cult has shunned me. The narcissist hasn't because she needs someone to belittle and I was her favorite choice.

    I feel for you!  My late mother didn't attend daughter's wedding.  She didn't want to be around all those "Chinese people".  So happy she missed it!
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  • I put up with everything because it's family. She started up on calling my daughters defect mutants and racial slurs, I went oh fuck no. She screwed me up enough, I was sure not letting her destroy my babies. Went strictly no contact 47 months ago to the day, and never looked back. She still tries contacting me, I junk all email, voice mail and text, I shred all written mail. Any boxes get dumped straight in the trash. Yup, I'll eventually throw out stuff I left behind. I'll eventually miss "important" family news. I no longer care. I've tried opening a few random things, it's the same how my horrible ways are tearing the family apart, no racial slurs are to be in our family, etc... She can't admit she's wrong, she's truly a narcissist, so I have no hope for a relationship. I just work on getting her to mean nothing to me.

    At least my girls aren't damaged by her.
  • As one who has "been there", I strongly suggest you talk to a therapist, if you haven't already.  There is an excellent book, Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Dr. Karyl McBride.  It has helped a lot of daughters of narcissistic mothers.
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  • So I haven't read the comments here yet. But it seems to me that by abdicating their right to sign the legal documentation, clergy are just making themselves more irrelevant than ever, and encouraging bullshit PPDs in the process. SOUNDS FUN.
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    This baby knows exactly how I feel
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