Is this a PPD?

leelabear · January 2015

If a couple had to legally marry before they could do anything else. Would that anything else afterwards be a PPD?

When I say legally married I mean no party, no family, no friends, no traditions, no calling each other newly weds, no exchanging of vows, no promises kept for each other, no meeting with a minster, priest, etc., no changing of FB status, no gifts. Just simply legally getting married in your county. Then celebrating, exchanging vows etc. on another day. Would you consider second part to be a PPD?

fwtx5815 · January 2015

Yes. They are married. It doesn't matter what their reasons were for doing a JOP wedding.

The only way it wouldn't be a PPD is if they had a celebration of marriage (so, a party basically) without all of the typical wedding traditions, and if they were honest with the party guests about being married already.

NYCMercedes · January 2015

leelabear said:

If a couple had to legally marry before they could do anything else. Would that anything else afterwards be a PPD?

When I say legally married I mean no party, no family, no friends, no traditions, no calling each other newly weds, no exchanging of vows, no promises kept for each other, no meeting with a minster, priest, etc., no changing of FB status, no gifts. Just simply legally getting married in your county. Then celebrating, exchanging vows etc. on another day. Would you consider second part to be a PPD?

Yes. You are clearly married. You can certainly have a party for any reason. There's no reason at the party to do anything bridal, of course.

artbyallie · January 2015

That is pretty much the definition of a PPD. And really, I have yet to hear a reason that genuinely prevented any couple from planning a wedding party that coincided with their legal marriage. I have only ever heard reasons that indicated the couple was shit at planning and/or unwilling to jump through the hoops to get what they wanted.

BlueBirdMB · January 2015

artbyallie said:

That is pretty much the definition of a PPD. And really, I have yet to hear a reason that genuinely prevented any couple from planning a wedding party that coincided with their legal marriage. I have only ever heard reasons that indicated the couple was shit at planning and/or unwilling to jump through the hoops to get what they wanted.

TOTALLY

slothiegal · January 2015

leelabear said:

If a couple had to legally marry before they could do anything else. Would that anything else afterwards be a PPD?

When I say legally married I mean no party, no family, no friends, no traditions, no calling each other newly weds, no exchanging of vows, no promises kept for each other, no meeting with a minster, priest, etc., no changing of FB status, no gifts. Just simply legally getting married in your county. Then celebrating, exchanging vows etc. on another day. Would you consider second part to be a PPD?

This is a poor choice of words.

And yes, this is the exact definition of a PPD.

ShesSoCold · January 2015

leelabear said:

If a couple had to legally marry before they could do anything else. Would that anything else afterwards be a PPD?

When I say legally married I mean no party, no family, no friends, no traditions, no calling each other newly weds, no exchanging of vows, no promises kept for each other, no meeting with a minster, priest, etc., no changing of FB status, no gifts. Just simply legally getting married in your county. Then celebrating, exchanging vows etc. on another day. Would you consider second part to be a PPD?

I disagree with PPs. Changing our facebook statuses was the most important thing to H and I and we didn't consider ourselves married until we did so. Rings, certificates, legality? Fuck that. It's all about changing facebook statuses. And wearing panties that say "mrs" in rhinestones.

leelabear · January 2015

Well, I guess that settles it then. It’s a pretty princess day.

To be honest, it really saddens me that this seems to be the case. I guess my view of getting married is a little different than everybody else’s. To me marriage is a promise, a commitment to another human being. The point of becoming married comes when you tell that person you will be there for them. I’m sure everyone may have slightly different wording for this. Some people write their own vows (promises and commitments) and others prefer to use the standard version (in sickness and in health, etc.). For those who believe in God, it might involve saying these commitments with as Him as a witness. These commitments along with love and understanding are what hold a couple together.

To me getting married isn’t about the white dress, the perfect reception, the gifts, the sendoff, or the traditions. It’s also not about a piece of paper that tells my government I’m in a legal contract with another person. Is that what marriage is to you? A legal marriage contract doesn’t make me feel confident that someone will cheer me up when I am down, hug me when I need one, or hold my hand when I am on my deathbed.

Maybe perhaps, my view on marriage is rather skewed. It could be that I watched too many movies growing up. Like in Brave Heart how William Wallace married Murron in secret so he didn’t have to share his wife with an Englishman. Technically his marriage wasn’t legal by today’s standards.

So when people define a PPD by having anything marriage like including vow exchange on a day after the day they only legally got married, I think it’s sad. One the other hand, I can completely agree it’s a PPD if a couple vow/commit themselves to each other one day and then have an over the top party with reenactment vows another day.

I cannot agree that marriage is simply a piece of paper handed out by our government. It’s sad that so many people view it this way.

LondonLisa · January 2015

leelabear said:

Well, I guess that settles it then. It’s a pretty princess day.

To be honest, it really saddens me that this seems to be the case. I guess my view of getting married is a little different than everybody else’s. To me marriage is a promise, a commitment to another human being. The point of becoming married comes when you tell that person you will be there for them. I’m sure everyone may have slightly different wording for this. Some people write their own vows (promises and commitments) and others prefer to use the standard version (in sickness and in health, etc.). For those who believe in God, it might involve saying these commitments with as Him as a witness. These commitments along with love and understanding are what hold a couple together.

To me getting married isn’t about the white dress, the perfect reception, the gifts, the sendoff, or the traditions. It’s also not about a piece of paper that tells my government I’m in a legal contract with another person. Is that what marriage is to you? A legal marriage contract doesn’t make me feel confident that someone will cheer me up when I am down, hug me when I need one, or hold my hand when I am on my deathbed.

Maybe perhaps, my view on marriage is rather skewed. It could be that I watched too many movies growing up. Like in Brave Heart how William Wallace married Murron in secret so he didn’t have to share his wife with an Englishman. Technically his marriage wasn’t legal by today’s standards.

So when people define a PPD by having anything marriage like including vow exchange on a day after the day they only legally got married, I think it’s sad. One the other hand, I can completely agree it’s a PPD if a couple vow/commit themselves to each other one day and then have an over the top party with reenactment vows another day.

I cannot agree that marriage is simply a piece of paper handed out by our government. It’s sad that so many people view it this way.

If that is the case, and vows are so important, why would this couple then not wait to do it at the same time as getting legally married. Every church where I am from will not perform a wedding ceremony if you are already legally married. That is because marriage is a binary state, you either are or aren't. If you want to get married in the church, actually get married in the church. As PP said, it is usually down to bad planning or wanting a benefit of being married. What extenuating circumstance happened where they HAD to get married beforehand?

ETA: to your last point, a diploma is just a piece of paper. Power of attorney is just paper. A citizenship naturalisation certificate is just a piece of paper handed out by the government. There are so many examples of just some 'paper' but in reality it is SO much more. That paper gives rights, securities, assurances and benefits. It is actually incredibly insulting to so many people fighting for marriage equality and rights. If it wasn't a big deal, just say your vows to your Fi and don't get the 'paper'. That is what you define marriage as, correct? Enjoy paying higher taxes and separate health insurance. Have children? Have fun navigating that mine field if you split up. God forbid something happen to your no-paper 'husband' and enjoy not being let into the hospital room, or to make medical decisions on his behalf. If he didn't have a will, see half of the life you built with him go to his siblings and not you. It's disgusting how flippant you are about 'paper' when so many people are fighting for that right and privilege.

artbyallie · January 2015

Except that legal marriage is a public record that you have made that commitment. You do have to acknowledge in signing that paper that you are freely entering into matrimony with that person. Most states also require some form of vows. If you are treated the legal portion flippantly, IMO you do not need to get legally married. Obviously that part is important to you though if you're going to do it.

And frankly it is offensive to call it 'simply a piece of paper' when so many people still are denied the thousand-plus rights that come with it and would do anything to be able to get it.

ohannabelle · January 2015

I'll probably be sorry I asked, but....

"Maybe perhaps, my view on marriage is rather skewed. It could be that I watched too many movies growing up. Like in Brave Heart how William Wallace married Murron in secret so he didn’t have to share his wife with an Englishman. Technically his marriage wasn’t legal by today’s standards."

WTF?

I'm just completely baffled by the Braveheart reference. What in the everloving hell do fictional Hollywood interpretations of medieval Scottish marriage laws have to do with the price of tea?

This may be the weirdest supporting argument for a PPD I have ever read.

Yes, the legal requirements have changed. That was another country, 700 years ago, where about one person in a thousand could read or write. Record keeping has somewhat improved with literacy.

Also:

This isn't a movie.

This isn't 1290.

There was, in real life, no Murron. Wallace's "wife" was invented for the movie.

Mel Gibson is a dick.

(Yes, that has nothing to do with anything, but neither does anything else.)

Just...what?

ohannabelle · January 2015

leelabear said:

If a couple had to legally marry before they could do anything else. Would that anything else afterwards be a PPD?

When I say legally married I mean no party, no family, no friends, no traditions, no calling each other newly weds, no exchanging of vows, no promises kept for each other, no meeting with a minster, priest, etc., no changing of FB status, no gifts. Just simply legally getting married in your county. Then celebrating, exchanging vows etc. on another day. Would you consider second part to be a PPD?

I am also curious why anyone "had" to legally marry. Is this a legal obligation, like marry or go to prison, or were guns held to your heads?

Nobody "has" to get married. It's a choice.

LondonLisa · January 2015

Ditto Annabelle- the Braveheart reference was ridiculous. It is a Hollywood film with so many historical inaccuracies it is hilarious. There is absolutely no evidence that jus primae noctis ever existed. Also William Wallace didn't even wear a kilt or have blue face paint. Kilts were invented in the 18th century by the English wealthy lords to wear on their Scottish estates. I mean, technically Maid Marion and Robin Hood in the children's Disney film had a PPD because foxes cannot legally get married...

leelabear · January 2015

I think my point was missed. The commitment made is more important than the marriage license. The definition of a PPD makes this legal document the most important.

Yes, the marriage license matters. It gives you a lot of legal rights. Its something LGBT should fight for. I'm just pointing out that it shouldn't be the keystone in your marriage.

Yes, Mel Gibson is an ars and Braveheart is riddled with historic inaccuracies. That wasn't the point I was making.

Yes, most people that get married one day and have a party the next do have PPDs suited by both yours and my definition. And they should acknowledge and let people know it is a PPD.

Yes, most people should do better planning so all these things can happen on the same day. But a small amount of people can't for understandable reasons. They shouldn't be thrown under the bus, be labeled, have guests who are so offended that they actually don't attend the "PPD" party, etc.

My point is the definition of a PPD gives the marriage license more importance than the commitment.

mrscomposer · January 2015

I guess I just don't understand, then.

When I got married, I committed to my husband by signing our marriage license. You can be committed without signing a license, but you are not married. You cannot be married without signing the license. In the country where I live, we are not viewed as legally married until we sign the legal document - because that is how marriage is defined in my country.

leelabear said:

My point is the definition of a PPD gives the marriage license more importance than the commitment.

That's not accurate. The fact that people sign the marriage license and then not tell anyone about it makes the license not as important. If something is important to you, you naturally want to share it. People who have a PPD are demonstrating that it's the party that is important, not the license and not the commitment.

slothiegal · January 2015

leelabear said:

I think my point was missed. The commitment made is more important than the marriage license. The definition of a PPD makes this legal document the most important.

Yes, the marriage license matters. It gives you a lot of legal rights. Its something LGBT should fight for. I'm just pointing out that it shouldn't be the keystone in your marriage.
Yes, Mel Gibson is an ars and Braveheart is riddled with historic inaccuracies. That wasn't the point I was making.
Yes, most people that get married one day and have a party the next do have PPDs suited by both yours and my definition. And they should acknowledge and let people know it is a PPD.
Yes, most people should do better planning so all these things can happen on the same day. But a small amount of people can't for understandable reasons. They shouldn't be thrown under the bus, be labeled, have guests who are so offended that they actually don't attend the "PPD" party, etc.

My point is the definition of a PPD gives the marriage license more importance than the commitment.

Count me in as another who is apparently "missing the point". Signing that marriage license IS that commitment. That is what makes you married. And if you believe marriage is where you take your partner in sickness and in health, that happens once you sign that paper, even if you have not said those exact words out loud.

I'm not even going to go into the weird movie analogy.

And I, like @ohannabelle, would like you know what circumstances would dictate that a couple would "have" to get married. Visa, insurance, etc.--these are choices you make. They can be hard. When I couldn't find a job out here and lost my health insurance, slothieguy asked if I wanted to get married earlier, just a simple courthouse wedding. We seriously discussed it. At the end of the day, having our friends and family present when we got married was far too important, so I found other solutions to the insurance issue. Yes, we paid more than we would've if we had just gotten married and I hopped on his. But we made a choice. 'cause if you'e ready to get married, you (should) be ready to make tough choices.

ETA a point

theartistformerlyknownas · January 2015

If the vows/commitment part was so important to you, you shouldn't have skipped it.

Similarly, if the vows/commitment part is still so meaningful to you, you're free to go ahead and do it. You just don't get to throw a giant party around then because you're already married, and that party is intended to celebrate with those who witnessed you becoming married. So please feel free to join hands with your spouse in your living room and make all those promises.

Otherwise, definition of a PPD, reenacting what people assume to be a marriage when really you just wanted to show off in a pretty dress.

Teddy917 · January 2015

I see your point (kinda). The paper doesn't insure that he'll always love you. The paper is the physical display of the commitment that you're pledging your love but that doesn't mean that you can just have a PPD. The party isn't the commitment. The party is just a party. At least that paper means that H is willing to stay with me forever. What does the party mean? That you could throw a party.

The commitment is made every day, not on the day you have the party. I saw a quote once that said "Marriage is waking up next to your husband and thinking: I could strangle him or make breakfast. Oh well, pancakes it is."

That paper does however give you legal rights. That party doesn't give you squat.

LondonLisa · January 2015

leelabear said:

I think my point was missed. The commitment made is more important than the marriage license. The definition of a PPD makes this legal document the most important.

Yes, the marriage license matters. It gives you a lot of legal rights. Its something LGBT should fight for. I'm just pointing out that it shouldn't be the keystone in your marriage.
Yes, Mel Gibson is an ars and Braveheart is riddled with historic inaccuracies. That wasn't the point I was making.
Yes, most people that get married one day and have a party the next do have PPDs suited by both yours and my definition. And they should acknowledge and let people know it is a PPD.
Yes, most people should do better planning so all these things can happen on the same day. But a small amount of people can't for understandable reasons. They shouldn't be thrown under the bus, be labeled, have guests who are so offended that they actually don't attend the "PPD" party, etc.

My point is the definition of a PPD gives the marriage license more importance than the commitment.

Name one situation where the two people can't say vows to each other when signing the marriage license. What is an understandable reason? I'm genuinely curious. I can't think of one other than poor planning and the vanity of a poofy white dress day...

artbyallie · January 2015

LondonLisa said:

show previous quotes

leelabear said:

I think my point was missed. The commitment made is more important than the marriage license. The definition of a PPD makes this legal document the most important.

Yes, the marriage license matters. It gives you a lot of legal rights. Its something LGBT should fight for. I'm just pointing out that it shouldn't be the keystone in your marriage.
Yes, Mel Gibson is an ars and Braveheart is riddled with historic inaccuracies. That wasn't the point I was making.
Yes, most people that get married one day and have a party the next do have PPDs suited by both yours and my definition. And they should acknowledge and let people know it is a PPD.
Yes, most people should do better planning so all these things can happen on the same day. But a small amount of people can't for understandable reasons. They shouldn't be thrown under the bus, be labeled, have guests who are so offended that they actually don't attend the "PPD" party, etc.

My point is the definition of a PPD gives the marriage license more importance than the commitment.

Name one situation where the two people can't say vows to each other when signing the marriage license. What is an understandable reason? I'm genuinely curious. I can't think of one other than poor planning and the vanity of a poofy white dress day...

I would also like to know this. And really, @leelabear, you keep on speaking as if this is a hypothetical. I expect it's rather that you're trying to get validation for your own situation but without giving this 'understandable reason' you think you have. Do tell, please.

lyndausvi · January 2015

My point would be "that piece of paper" might not be MORE important to some. I get it, some people want the religious ceremony or formally say their vows in front of family and friends and for whatever reason (some legit, some not-so-much) circumstance prevented that. More than a lot of knotties I get that part. I really do.

C'mon mon, the paper has to be at least AS important. No? Let's face it, if it wasn't at least as important why bother getting first or even at all for that matter? You can say vows in front of your friends and family without that piece of paper, no?

I expect adults to own their choices. If you feel the need to get that paper license before you say your vows in front of family and friends OWN THAT SHIT. Don't go around pretending the paper one isn't important. That piece of paper IS IMPORTANT or you would never have gotten in the first place. FACT.

At least in my world if you own your shit. Tell everyone you got married in the courthouse but are planning a vow renewal we will support you. Hell, we like a good party. If you pretend the legal one didn't happen and go around planning a "real wedding" we will not. And trust me, in most states marriage licenses are public record. It will get out. It always does.

VulgarGirl · January 2015

I find my piece of paper really fucking important.

But I've also never seen braveheart so clearly I don't know what real love and commitment is.

ohannabelle · January 2015

I've heard about a million and one excuses, suggested reasons, justifications, arguments, and examples* regarding why various posters want a wedding reenactment day.

It's all dissembling. 100%. None of it stands up to logic and reality. All the arguments presented are covering the actual genuine motivation.

Bottom line, they wanted some sort of benefit, chose not to wait, and now they want the big poofy dress show. They want the flowers and presents and photographers and an audience and a show. There it is. That's the truth.

There is no deeper philosophy at play about what marriage means, or belief that "paper doesn't matter," or whatever.

They want the big showcase wedding, and to play star for a day.

* This post, however, is the first time I've seen Braveheart offered as an example of why the actual marriage certificate doesn't matter. Am I bad because that really made me laugh? Just the worst example ever- look, a fictional event in a romantical movie set in a time where you didn't need a paper, so there's a good example of why.

It just takes dissembling to new and absurd heights. It also made me shout things in a bad Scots accent. Like, "Ye may tek our land, ye may tek our lives, but ye canna tek our big...white....dresses!"

kmmssg · January 2015

lyndausvi said:

My point would be "that piece of paper" might not be MORE important to some. I get it, some people want the religious ceremony or formally say their vows in front of family and friends and for whatever reason (some legit, some not-so-much) circumstance prevented that. More than a lot of knotties I get that part. I really do.

C'mon mon, the paper has to be at least AS important. No? Let's face it, if it wasn't at least as important why bother getting first or even at all for that matter? You can say vows in front of your friends and family without that piece of paper, no?

I expect adults to own their choices. If you feel the need to get that paper license before you say your vows in front of family and friends OWN THAT SHIT. Don't go around pretending the paper one isn't important. That piece of paper IS IMPORTANT or you would never have gotten in the first place. FACT.

At least in my world if you own your shit. Tell everyone you got married in the courthouse but are planning a vow renewal we will support you. Hell, we like a good party. If you pretend the legal one didn't happen and go around planning a "real wedding" we will not. And trust me, in most states marriage licenses are public record. It will get out. It always does.

I share Lynda's view on this 100%.

You mentioned God in one of your responses and a couple of thoughts came to me as a Christian (not sure if you are and that's cool, just sharing my thoughts).

You said, "For those who believe in God, it might involve saying these commitments with as Him as a witness. These commitments along with love and understanding are what hold a couple together." I believe God is everywhere. You could stand in the city dump and recite the most amazing, loving vows to your husband and God is there to witness it. You can share them at the courthouse, your living room, anywhere - and He is there to witness it.

A short story to share with you: I am retired military and a good friend of mine is still in. She is the anti-christ of makeup - calls it war paint. You take Carole as she is and she is feisty/no nonsense. She got a call that her SO (keep in mind he was early 50's, she is late 40's) was in the hospital and had a heart attack. She got there and they were going to have to do some kind of emergency surgery too. He had no insurance. She wanted to get married on the spot so he could have her insurance, in her camouflage uniform, boots, no make-up, and pinned up hair with all the machines buzzing and whirring. The hospital social worker got a magistrate in there and they got married just before they wheeled him into surgery. He told her she could have a big shindig do over if she wanted and she told him, "No, it was absolutely perfect, we are married, and I love you."

No time for poetic vows, no dress, no fancy anything, just ICU, nurses, a camouflage uniform, and super quick vows. God witnessed it. Most importantly, they owned their shit.

You married the person you love. I too am curious as to why you guys "had" to get married at the courthouse, but that is what apparently worked for your circumstances. Embrace it! Celebrate your love, and be glad you could get married!!!

emmaaa · January 2015

This is one of the most confusing threads I've read in a while. Why did this "hypothetical" couple HAVE to get legally married before they could do anything else?

In case I am missing something, whenever you get your marriage license and then have the JOP or someone else oversee your wedding (yes wedding, this "hypothetical" couple had a wedding) you probably had the option of saying vows.

You said that vows and the verbal commitment are important to you and perhaps more important than a piece of paper. Was the proposal not a verbal commitment? What about when this hypothetical couple verbally decided to go get married? All of that is a commitment. It is no one else's fault, othern than the couple, that they got married privately, that's what some people really want.

Have your "hypothetical" couple have a celebration with dancing, drinking, and food and move on.

kaos16 · January 2015

OP, I think we would all have a much easier trying to follow your logic if you would just explain your situation that you are trying to have validated.

larrygaga · January 2015

BlueBirdMB said:

show previous quotes

artbyallie said:

That is pretty much the definition of a PPD. And really, I have yet to hear a reason that genuinely prevented any couple from planning a wedding party that coincided with their legal marriage. I have only ever heard reasons that indicated the couple was shit at planning and/or unwilling to jump through the hoops to get what they wanted.

TOTALLY

Gay people sometimes have to leave their state but don't want to force everyone to attend a DW.

Which in my opinion is the only fair PPD. Anything else is a lame excuse. Military related, foreigner related or even insurance purposes are all lame excuses and can be avoided.

larrygaga · January 2015

leelabear said:

Well, I guess that settles it then. It’s a pretty princess day.

To be honest, it really saddens me that this seems to be the case. I guess my view of getting married is a little different than everybody else’s. To me marriage is a promise, a commitment to another human being. The point of becoming married comes when you tell that person you will be there for them. I’m sure everyone may have slightly different wording for this. Some people write their own vows (promises and commitments) and others prefer to use the standard version (in sickness and in health, etc.). For those who believe in God, it might involve saying these commitments with as Him as a witness. These commitments along with love and understanding are what hold a couple together.

To me getting married isn’t about the white dress, the perfect reception, the gifts, the sendoff, or the traditions. It’s also not about a piece of paper that tells my government I’m in a legal contract with another person. Is that what marriage is to you? A legal marriage contract doesn’t make me feel confident that someone will cheer me up when I am down, hug me when I need one, or hold my hand when I am on my deathbed.

Maybe perhaps, my view on marriage is rather skewed. It could be that I watched too many movies growing up. Like in Brave Heart how William Wallace married Murron in secret so he didn’t have to share his wife with an Englishman. Technically his marriage wasn’t legal by today’s standards.

So when people define a PPD by having anything marriage like including vow exchange on a day after the day they only legally got married, I think it’s sad. One the other hand, I can completely agree it’s a PPD if a couple vow/commit themselves to each other one day and then have an over the top party with reenactment vows another day.

I cannot agree that marriage is simply a piece of paper handed out by our government. It’s sad that so many people view it this way.

Marriage is exactly a legal document. Otherwise everyone would just stay boyfriend and girlfriend. The loving commitment you speak of is recorded on a piece of paper so it's legal and recognized by basically everyone ever. The emotional commitment could be covered by a very serious set of boyfriend girlfriend or whatever LGBT combo it is.

Didn't want to exclude LGBT.

LGBTQ* I think is what it is now?

flantastic · January 2015

Regarding marriage as more than just a piece of paper from the government...

In my faith, the "real" marriage is also the religious covenant. The religious promises therein are very important to me, because we do believe that making them changes both of you in a spiritual way, and that you've specifically promised before God to be husband and wife forever.

HOWEVER... This belief can't be used as an excuse to say the signing of the government paper doesn't matter. Because a) if the benefits accorded by the government by said piece of paper truly didn't matter at all, we wouldn't bother to get one and b) separating the marriage license from my marriage is defrauding the government for my own convenience. If I truly don't believe that I'm married until I make the religious promises, then I can't tell the government I'm married when I'm not, just for the legal benefits. So PPDs are still out.

If you really believe that the "emotional commitment" or vows are when your marriage truly happens, you can't divorce the marriage license from that day without being fraudulent.*

*Unless you live in France and are required to

artbyallie · January 2015

@larrygaga I believe the full acronym is now LGBTQIA (questioning, intersex, asexual on those last three)

And I agree with you that SSM is the only excuse I find acceptable in a PPD scenario.

VulgarGirl · January 2015

@larrygaga, I usually use LGBTQ to include queer/questioning, LGBT is still widely used and accepted. And @artbyallie is right, I and A are often included in the long form. But Q can stand for both queer and questioning. More and more people use "queer" as a label as they don't feel the others fit them. Oh and sometimes we add P for panasexual. I'm waiting for us to add an S for straight allies at which point I'm just suggesting we drop down to "NHA" for "Not homophobic assholes".

Is this a PPD?

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