need advice on breach of contract [Update in comments-- it gets WORSE]

pinkcow13 · January 2015

Omg that is just horrible. I would say definitely get a lawyer involved at this point. Wow, that makes me so furious for you.

charcoalandblush · January 2015

Are there any law schools near you? If you're worried about the $$ of hiring a lawyer, you could see if a law clinic at a local law school could help. We had civil litigation, business law, and conciliation court (small claims) clinics that handled stuff like this all the time. It would be free or very cheap. And as PPs have said, my guess is a nastygram would do the trick.

thisismynickname2 · January 2015

I appreciate the moral support of this community

thisismynickname2 · January 2015

charcoalandblush said:

Are there any law schools near you? If you're worried about the $$ of hiring a lawyer, you could see if a law clinic at a local law school could help. We had civil litigation, business law, and conciliation court (small claims) clinics that handled stuff like this all the time. It would be free or very cheap. And as PPs have said, my guess is a nastygram would do the trick.

Ooooo great tip!

dcbride86 · January 2015

thisismynickname said:

charcoalandblush said:

Are there any law schools near you? If you're worried about the $$ of hiring a lawyer, you could see if a law clinic at a local law school could help. We had civil litigation, business law, and conciliation court (small claims) clinics that handled stuff like this all the time. It would be free or very cheap. And as PPs have said, my guess is a nastygram would do the trick.

Ooooo great tip!

This is a great tip, although at my law school, you had to qualify as low-income to obtain student attorney services. I don't know if that's the case everywhere, though

atlastmrsg · January 2015

dcbride86 said:

atlastmrsg said:

dcbride86 said:

No problem . Also, hiring a lawyer shouldn't cost you anything upfront. Most will just do it on a contingency. PM me if you have any questions, and I can do as much for you as I'm allowed to while only having bar membership in another state.

No. I charge hourly rates, never contingency on things like this. What do I have to get out of something like this that's contingency? 30-40% of the recovery would be 30-40% of the photos since she isn't asking for anything financial.

And yes, hiring a lawyer costs money upfront unless the person is doing you a favor. Many of us offer a 30-minute free consultation, but then we often charge a retainer for anticipated hourly bills, a filing fee if an action is initiated, etc.

So while @dcbride86 might not charge, I can't say the same for those that I practice with. If you end up hiring someone, don't go without being prepared to pay. It won't be much though since a letter is less than an hour of work. Even a small claims court is something that can be given to the newest attorney in a group with the lowest billing rate for just a few hours of work.

I assumed she would be asking for monetary damages as well as the actual pictures, which is why a lawyer would take it on a contingency. I admittedly primarily have experience with the government, where this wouldn't be an issue, but all the small firms I've worked with and my friends have worked with took everything on contingency (except obviously criminal law, child support, etc.). Yes, if she exclusively asked for the pictures in a legal action, she would have to pay an hourly rate. I just assumed that wouldn't be the case.

The money damages are so small that it just isn't worth contingency. So she asks for $5,000 if that's what she paid. Say I get 40% or about $2,000. I bill out at $215/hour. That would mean that if I have $150 in filing fees (small claims court is less, district court is about this), I can't spend more than 8.6 hours on the whole thing. If I spend 1 hour with her as an initial consultation to hear the story, I'm down to 7.6. If I have to go to court twice, where I end up waiting a long time each time (hence lots of TK time...) than this money is spent after drafting a pleading. A simplest of simple matter can often take about 15 hours of my time, which is worth $3,225 plus filing fees, copies, etc.

The law school closest to me does have a law clinic, but you have to have minimal income, and it must be landlord-tenant, domestic relations, or bankruptcy. But still worth a call.

The best gig is to find someone fresh out of law school desperate to build a book of business. They'll do it for very little just to say they have a client.

kaitlynmichelle · January 2015

Ugh that sucks. I wonder how many other brides she has waiting for their pictures too. Hopefully the second shooter can get the images from her!

dcbride86 · January 2015

atlastmrsg said:

dcbride86 said:

atlastmrsg said:

dcbride86 said:

No problem . Also, hiring a lawyer shouldn't cost you anything upfront. Most will just do it on a contingency. PM me if you have any questions, and I can do as much for you as I'm allowed to while only having bar membership in another state.

No. I charge hourly rates, never contingency on things like this. What do I have to get out of something like this that's contingency? 30-40% of the recovery would be 30-40% of the photos since she isn't asking for anything financial.

And yes, hiring a lawyer costs money upfront unless the person is doing you a favor. Many of us offer a 30-minute free consultation, but then we often charge a retainer for anticipated hourly bills, a filing fee if an action is initiated, etc.

So while @dcbride86 might not charge, I can't say the same for those that I practice with. If you end up hiring someone, don't go without being prepared to pay. It won't be much though since a letter is less than an hour of work. Even a small claims court is something that can be given to the newest attorney in a group with the lowest billing rate for just a few hours of work.

I assumed she would be asking for monetary damages as well as the actual pictures, which is why a lawyer would take it on a contingency. I admittedly primarily have experience with the government, where this wouldn't be an issue, but all the small firms I've worked with and my friends have worked with took everything on contingency (except obviously criminal law, child support, etc.). Yes, if she exclusively asked for the pictures in a legal action, she would have to pay an hourly rate. I just assumed that wouldn't be the case.

The money damages are so small that it just isn't worth contingency. So she asks for $5,000 if that's what she paid. Say I get 40% or about $2,000. I bill out at $215/hour. That would mean that if I have $150 in filing fees (small claims court is less, district court is about this), I can't spend more than 8.6 hours on the whole thing. If I spend 1 hour with her as an initial consultation to hear the story, I'm down to 7.6. If I have to go to court twice, where I end up waiting a long time each time (hence lots of TK time...) than this money is spent after drafting a pleading. A simplest of simple matter can often take about 15 hours of my time, which is worth $3,225 plus filing fees, copies, etc.

The law school closest to me does have a law clinic, but you have to have minimal income, and it must be landlord-tenant, domestic relations, or bankruptcy. But still worth a call.

The best gig is to find someone fresh out of law school desperate to build a book of business. They'll do it for very little just to say they have a client.

Yeah, that's probably true. Again, I don't have too much experience with the private sector, so I just went off my experience. For the demand letters I wrote, treble damages were almost always involved, so even if the actual amount was nominal, it would end up being worth it. Plus the defendant would have to pay attorneys fees. I have no idea if trebles would be involved here, though. Although if it settles out of court, I guess trebles wouldn't be as important

charcoalandblush · January 2015

atlastmrsg said:

The law school closest to me does have a law clinic, but you have to have minimal income, and it must be landlord-tenant, domestic relations, or bankruptcy. But still worth a call.

The best gig is to find someone fresh out of law school desperate to build a book of business. They'll do it for very little just to say they have a client.

#1 - This definitely varies from school to school. Our law school had something like 32 clinics, each with a different focus. My clinic didn't have an income requirement (civil rights law), I know some did and others didn't. So I'd say it's worth a shot.

#2 - Definitely this. Especially a solo practitioner/someone at a very small firm.

msuprincess04 · January 2015

Small claims court doesn't require representation. It's a pretty simple process, and it's designed that way to keep your costs low. May courthouses also have research centers and people who can help you file your own claim. But, I also suggest checking out law schools in the area. My law school didn't have a small claims clinic but it sounds like some others do.

atlastmrsg · January 2015

msuprincess04 said:

Small claims court doesn't require representation. It's a pretty simple process, and it's designed that way to keep your costs low. May courthouses also have research centers and people who can help you file your own claim. But, I also suggest checking out law schools in the area. My law school didn't have a small claims clinic but it sounds like some others do.

Not entirely true, at least from the defense side. In Indiana, if you're a business and you get sued in small claims for a sum over a certain amount (maybe $3,000?), you have to have representation. Something along these lines. I avoid small claims court. That's what first year associates are for.

lovesclimbing · January 2015

I wonder if she lost the images somehow and can't hand them over. I can't imagine any other explanation.

JennyColada · January 2015

atlastmrsg said:

msuprincess04 said:

Small claims court doesn't require representation. It's a pretty simple process, and it's designed that way to keep your costs low. May courthouses also have research centers and people who can help you file your own claim. But, I also suggest checking out law schools in the area. My law school didn't have a small claims clinic but it sounds like some others do.

Not entirely true, at least from the defense side. In Indiana, if you're a business and you get sued in small claims for a sum over a certain amount (maybe $3,000?), you have to have representation. Something along these lines. I avoid small claims court. That's what first year associates are for.

I think that's kind of the point though. Who cares if the photog needs to hire someone...if the OP doesn't have to then that seems like the BEST choice honestly. One should HOPE that the photog would have to spend LOTS of money on the situation (because that will encourage her to settle quickly and appease OP out of court).

floridabride44 · January 2015

Watching the Today show this morning inspired an idea for this - have you considered calling up a local news station about this? Especially now that it's not just you and that this photographer has screwed at least one other person. Sometimes when those investigative reporters start poking around, they get stuff DONE! Plus then there'd be a public story out there about her that would make nobody else consider booking her in her new non-wedding business.

novella1186 · January 2015

lovesclimbing said:

I wonder if she lost the images somehow and can't hand them over. I can't imagine any other explanation.

That's what I was thinking too. But how the hell does she lose multiple clients' images? She sounds like the worst business person ever. EVER.

climbingsingle · January 2015

Holy shit. I'm so angry for you!

kaitlynmichelle · January 2015

novella1186 said:

lovesclimbing said:

I wonder if she lost the images somehow and can't hand them over. I can't imagine any other explanation.

That's what I was thinking too. But how the hell does she lose multiple clients' images? She sounds like the worst business person ever. EVER.
-----------------

My boss told us a few months before my wedding that her recently married daughter just found out all her photos were gone. ALL of them. Her photographer left her laptop in her car while shooting another wedding and it was stolen. She had never backed up the pictures.

I felt so bad for her, and still do. I would have been devastated.

Edit: She also lost another wedding's photos on that laptop. I saw it on the news and then realized I knew her from a work event. I'd second the idea of going to a local news station. That might light a fire under her ass too.

novella1186 · January 2015

kaitlynmichelle said:

lovesclimbing said:

I wonder if she lost the images somehow and can't hand them over. I can't imagine any other explanation.

That's what I was thinking too. But how the hell does she lose multiple clients' images? She sounds like the worst business person ever. EVER.
----------------- My boss told us a few months before my wedding that her recently married daughter just found out all her photos were gone. ALL of them. Her photographer left her laptop in her car while shooting another wedding and it was stolen. She had never backed up the pictures. I felt so bad for her, and still do. I would have been devastated. Edit: She also lost another wedding's photos on that laptop. I saw it on the news and then realized I knew her from a work event. I'd second the idea of going to a local news station. That might light a fire under her ass too.

More support for NOT doing an un-plugged wedding. Hopefully at the very least, the guests snapped some good pictures. That would be so heart-breaking

mrstrevor15 · January 2015

Maybe she died. Seriously...you never know.

levioosa · January 2015

mrstrevor15 said:

Maybe she died. Seriously...you never know.

She's been shooting other events, just not weddings.

thisismynickname2 · January 2015

Thanks all!

I'm looking into the clinic thing. I also need to find time to research arbitration. I know this sounds weird, but I think scaring the hell out of this photographer is the least effective method. Just with her personality... head in the sand.

And guess what... the second bride (who did the unplugged thing and has NO photos of her ceremony) just told me there is a THIRD bride who also got in touch on Yelp! Now we've all filed consumer complaints with the IL Attorney General. Several years ago this AG sued a photography company with just three couples involved. It'll be interesting to see if this prompts action.

As far as the media, there is a columnist with the Tribune called the Problem Solver. It's something to keep in mind.

Oh, and after a couple bad reviews on this photographers new (non-wedding) photo page? She took down the page!

kaitlynmichelle · January 2015

My boss told us a few months before my wedding that her recently married daughter just found out all her photos were gone. ALL of them. Her photographer left her laptop in her car while shooting another wedding and it was stolen. She had never backed up the pictures.

I felt so bad for her, and still do. I would have been devastated.

Edit: She also lost another wedding's photos on that laptop. I saw it on the news and then realized I knew her from a work event. I'd second the idea of going to a local news station. That might light a fire under her ass too.

-----------'

More support for NOT doing an un-plugged wedding. Hopefully at the very least, the guests snapped some good pictures. That would be so heart-breaking

----------
She did manage to get some pictures from guests but not many. They have next to nothing of the ceremony I think (from what I remember my boss saying) and a lot of the family pictures with far away relatives they didn't have anyone else around to take pictures. They were offering a reward for the return of the laptop/even just the data but nothing ever was recovered.

That photographer will likely not do so well with future business. She tried to help with the recovery but if I saw news articles about that situation no way would I hire her.

photokitty · January 2015

Not sure, but if you dispute the CC charge and get your money back then you may not be entitled to the photos. Any decent photog contract says the photog is only liable for the amount paid. I'm not sure what the legal stance is, but I would be cautious getting the money back bc that might make you whole legally and then you wouldn't get the images.

This sucks. I'm sorry you are dealing with it. GL!

thisismynickname2 · January 2015

photokitty said: Not sure, but if you dispute the CC charge and get your money back then you may not be entitled to the photos. Any decent photog contract says the photog is only liable for the amount paid. I'm not sure what the legal stance is, but I would be cautious getting the money back bc that might make you whole legally and then you wouldn't get the images.
This sucks. I'm sorry you are dealing with it. GL! -----------------------The CC company said the vendor would get a letter stating why it was disputed and that if they completed the work, they'd get the money returned. We have every intention of paying her if we get the photos. And actually her contract did not say she's liable for amount paid. It more said that she's not liable for blah-di-blah.

So... yeah. There's seemingly a lot of variance in the quality of contracts, and live and learn! Edit: Oh, boxes...

need advice on breach of contract [Update in comments-- it gets WORSE]

Re: need advice on breach of contract [Update in comments-- it gets WORSE]

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