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Declines = Depression

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Re: Declines = Depression

  • lovesclimbinglovesclimbing member
    Seventh Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    WhatawagSBNy said:
    wrigleyville said:
    tcnoble said:
    amelisha said:
    It's not like they're saying no because they don't like you, either - people just have stuff going on in their lives and sometimes that has to come before a wedding even if they love you a lot, you know? And especially if there's travel involved. Vacation time, money, babysitters and pets and meetings and who knows what else. It's not personal, it's just....life. People have commitments and plans and they're busy and it doesn't reflect on how they feel about you.
    So much this. I've tried explaining that to him. And he's all "Well I know Aunt and Uncle so-and-so are taking a trip to Disneyworld this month so it's not like they can't afford it!" and I have to gently explain that how they spend their money is their choice and it doesn't mean they don't love us or wish us the best, but they have made the choice not to attend. 

    I've also reminded him many times that no one else thinks our wedding day is THEBESTDAYEVER except us. I think he will feel better if there are more declines from my portion of the list lol
    Yes, but they probably saved for that trip and had it earmarked long before they got your wedding invitation. They might not have any travel money and/or vacation time left now. (I'm saying that to him, not you.) ;)
    That's exactly what I pointed out to him... I said "we saved for almost two years for our honeymoon. If someone invites us to an OOT wedding this summer we won't be able to afford it, but we paid for our honeymoon. See how that works??"

    He was so upset he wanted to B-List. Slow your roll, groomzilla.
    *********** This is why b lists are something that some people accept and have for sixty years, while others hate B lists. And in principle they seem bad etiquette. If you really wanted the people you invited, more than those you left off the list, then your B list is second choice also- rans, and that late invitation says Come on down, you second class better- than -no-one friend. So insulting, so wrong. But if you cut from your invitation list almost all of the people whom you really wanted most, because parents and friends all said, family first whether you like it or not ( and we are paying,) then it is natural to feel, well now the family plan failed can we at least put back on the list our Best friends? More people than not will do that, if it is still a respectable time before the wedding and within the usual time of sending invitations 4 to 8 weeks before the wedding. These were your first choice people. And contrary to what many people say on these boards, etiquette rules are not hard and fast, one rule fits every situation. The distinction with B lists is, are these people really the ones first in your heart who should have been on the list to begin with, no question? And if that is true, will they receive the invitation at least a month ahead so they will not feel insulted ? Those two things are the principles behind invitation etiquette way back to 1920's Emily Post, and all through the years . One thing people often say is, well maybe they will know others got invitations earlier. People compare notes. Isn't that bad? The traditional society hostesses answer is that surely people have busy enough lives of their own that they are not so rude as to inquire about WHEN other people get their invitations. Who would ever invite someone rude enough to do that? Everyday fact is that lots of people address and stamp the first third of invitations, out of time, mail those, and the next time they have the time, 2 or 3 days later they do more, and it may be a week to ten days between the times the first ones go to the post office and the last. Especially if the post office near you is open only one a week or twice a month when either of you can get there. Even invitations all mailed at the same time may arrive 10 to 14 days apart. And only social secretaries and very compulsive hosts sit down, figure out how long it takes for mail to cross the street (up to ten days in Boston and NYC), go to a distant state big suburb ( 3 to 8) or another country (6 To 21) or rural areas (at least five days, then likely up to 3 weeks more when they make the monthly trip to town). Then mail each type so they arrive at the same time. People need to think through the principles regarding invitations and judge what is right, from that. Don't fill seats with second tier people. But don't sit in a half empty hall, knowing most of the people you wanted most to come are some where else when you could have invited them a month in advance, within the window of acceptable time, and did not because people on a message board said NEVER, NEVER! Aside from refraining from hurting your hosts or guests, there are a lot of times when proper etiquette is a flexible thing.
    To the bolded: where the heck do you think people live? I lived in a tiny town of about 35 people for a short period of time. They still got mail twice a week.  I also lived in a town of about 50-60, and that post office was open every day for 5-6 hours.
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  • WhatawagSBNyWhatawagSBNy member
    Sixth Anniversary 250 Love Its 500 Comments First Answer
    tcnoble said:

    And all that whatawag nonsense novel that was typed? I can't.

    ***********
    The two of you are the only ones who can decide whether to invite others or not. The etiquette experts are split. But if your husband to be really wants to do it, and you do not, you may have an issue he is angry and simmers about for a long time.
    Etiquette on this is not as cut and dried as many ladies on this board suggest.

    There is also the etiquette judgement: Do you have the right to make your FI very unhappy on his wedding day about something not even half the etiquette experts would say is wrong? It is his wedding too. People who gender stereotype say the wedding only matters to the woman, but in my experience that is wrong. Most men are very emotionally involved in their wedding.
    And if your husband is angry now, as you twice stated, that should matter most. You are getting married. Do you want all future decisions made by one of you with the other never giving an inch?

    Think about it. Divorces are tough. Good marriages depend on working things out, and you are the one who told us how upset he is.
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  • KatieinBklnKatieinBkln member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer First Anniversary
    WhatawagSBNy said:
    And all that whatawag nonsense novel that was typed? I can't.
    *********** The two of you are the only ones who can decide whether to invite others or not. The etiquette experts are split. But if your husband to be really wants to do it, and you do not, you may have an issue he is angry and simmers about for a long time. Etiquette on this is not as cut and dried as many ladies on this board suggest. There is also the etiquette judgement: Do you have the right to make your FI very unhappy on his wedding day about something not even half the etiquette experts would say is wrong? It is his wedding too. People who gender stereotype say the wedding only matters to the woman, but in my experience that is wrong. Most men are very emotionally involved in their wedding. And if your husband is angry now, as you twice stated, that should matter most. You are getting married. Do you want all future decisions made by one of you with the other never giving an inch? Think about it. Divorces are tough. Good marriages depend on working things out, and you are the one who told us how upset he is.
    I guess I would seriously have to reconsider some shit if I were marrying someone who refused to listen to the logical reasons why etiquette matters. 

    I would also like to see citations from "half" of these etiquette experts you claim are okay with B-listing. Don't rush, I'll wait.
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  • WhatawagSBNyWhatawagSBNy member
    Sixth Anniversary 250 Love Its 500 Comments First Answer
    KatieinBkln said:


    WhatawagSBNy said:

    tcnoble said:

    And all that whatawag nonsense novel that was typed? I can't.

    ***********
    The two of you are the only ones who can decide whether to invite others or not. The etiquette experts are split. But if your husband to be really wants to do it, and you do not, you may have an issue he is angry and simmers about for a long time.
    Etiquette on this is not as cut and dried as many ladies on this board suggest.

    There is also the etiquette judgement: Do you have the right to make your FI very unhappy on his wedding day about something not even half the etiquette experts would say is wrong? It is his wedding too. People who gender stereotype say the wedding only matters to the woman, but in my experience that is wrong. Most men are very emotionally involved in their wedding.
    And if your husband is angry now, as you twice stated, that should matter most. You are getting married. Do you want all future decisions made by one of you with the other never giving an inch?

    Think about it. Divorces are tough. Good marriages depend on working things out, and you are the one who told us how upset he is.

    I guess I would seriously have to reconsider some shit if I were marrying someone who refused to listen to the logical reasons why etiquette matters. 

    I would also like to see citations from "half" of these etiquette experts you claim are okay with B-listing. Don't rush, I'll wait.


    **********
    Glad you can wait because mostly I have books and have to get to PC not this mobile to enter.

    But quick online reference from one of Miss Manners columns on. www.Uexpress.com , answering a question:

    Miss Manners


    Nothing Wrong With B Lists
    Jan 30, 2001

    Miss Manners doesn't blame you -- and she is grateful that you did the right thing -- but neither should you blame your hostess, whose only crime was to issue you an invitation. It is sort of like blaming your spouse because you have fallen in love with someone else, which, come to think of it, people do all the time. But then, people do a lot of things of which Miss Manners does not approve -- all the time.

    It is especially far-fetched to blame the hostess for not telling you that you were on the B list. Having a B list is not a crime, but letting someone know that he is on it, is. Since you point out that you had not been close to the guest of honor or his circle, it is not surprising that the hostess did not think of you first, but if you want someone to blame, Miss Manners recommends the person who blabbed.
    ------------------------------------
    Over and over, in general etiquette books and columns, Miss Manners says, weddings are simply a more formal occasion than everyday entertaining and parties, and the same principles apply to all of them.
    There is nothing wrong with B listing, as long as they were people you would have invited first except for financial or space considerations, the invitation is sent in a timely manner,
    And one never, ever tells someone that they were second choice. The other thing is that hostesses who have behaved correctly are not for other guests who blabbed.


    Emily Post, the original, and daughter Peggy Post;
    Ann Landers and her Daughter Margo Howard who for years was Miss Prudence on slate.com and now has her own books and columns; Letitia Baldrige who was the White House social secretary for Jacqueline Kennedy and later wrote on protocol and etiquette, Dear Abby and her daughter Jeanne Phillips, and a State Dept book on protocol
    ALL say essentially the same as Miss Manners
    I will try to get to scan them if I can, but any of you on computers can probably Search any of the names above AND "B List" and come up with them yourself, too. Mobile phones like mine are not up to the task.
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  • WhatawagSBNyWhatawagSBNy member
    Sixth Anniversary 250 Love Its 500 Comments First Answer
    Dear Abby on B listing. At the time Mother Pauline Phillips who was the original Dear Abby co-wrote this with daughter Jeanne Phillips. From the sun-sentinel.com



    Dear Abby: This concerns questioning the propriety of a telephone invitation to a wedding that came just two weeks before the wedding: I am sure many will join me in disagreeing with you.

    This is the very understandable system of the ``A`` list and the ``B`` list, not because of social order, but because of cost and family limitations.

    This past year, we received an invitation by phone from a dear friend who earlier had apologized for not including us in her limited number for her son`s wedding. It was 10 days before the wedding, and we were delighted to accept. Those invited early or late get to go and have a good time, and the host or hostess can fill all the seats. -- Adeline in Homewood, Ill.

    Dear Adeline: I admire your generous attitude; it has probably saved you many an ulcer. However, I still think it`s very insensitive to make guests feel that they are on any list other than the ``A`` list. And when an invitation to a formal affair is issued by telephone less than two weeks before the ``big day,`` the recipient cannot miss the implication.

    ----Write to Dear Abby, P.O. Box 69440, Hollywood, Calif. 90069

    Note that she does not say B listing is bad, but that the invitation was not timely, and the short notice by phone made it clear by implication that guest was B list. Violates principle, b posters still must receive the invitation with reasonable notice and not allowed to know if a list or b list.
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  • KatieinBklnKatieinBkln member
    2500 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer First Anniversary
    WhatawagSBNy said:
    Dear Abby on B listing. At the time Mother Pauline Phillips who was the original Dear Abby co-wrote this with daughter Jeanne Phillips. From the sun-sentinel.com Dear Abby: This concerns questioning the propriety of a telephone invitation to a wedding that came just two weeks before the wedding: I am sure many will join me in disagreeing with you. This is the very understandable system of the ``A`` list and the ``B`` list, not because of social order, but because of cost and family limitations. This past year, we received an invitation by phone from a dear friend who earlier had apologized for not including us in her limited number for her son`s wedding. It was 10 days before the wedding, and we were delighted to accept. Those invited early or late get to go and have a good time, and the host or hostess can fill all the seats. -- Adeline in Homewood, Ill. Dear Adeline: I admire your generous attitude; it has probably saved you many an ulcer. However, I still think it`s very insensitive to make guests feel that they are on any list other than the ``A`` list. And when an invitation to a formal affair is issued by telephone less than two weeks before the ``big day,`` the recipient cannot miss the implication. ----Write to Dear Abby, P.O. Box 69440, Hollywood, Calif. 90069 Note that she does not say B listing is bad, but that the invitation was not timely, and the short notice by phone made it clear by implication that guest was B list. Violates principle, b posters still must receive the invitation with reasonable notice and not allowed to know if a list or b list.
    Dude, she flatly states that it's "insensitive" to obviously B-list someone. For practical purposes, that IS saying that B-listing is bad. Pretending otherwise is overly literal hair-splitting.

    I would argue that if some relative calls you the day after you sent your invitation and declines, a person could certainly extend an invitation to a friend who for some reason didn't make the cut. The invitation would go out the same week, so who's the wiser? I do think that there is a VERY limited window where this is the case (like, actually within the week you sent the invitations). Much later than that, the "insensitive implication" is definitely there.

    But my earlier point stands: if this person were so important to you (general) then they would've been on the list in the first place. 
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  • WhatawagSBNyWhatawagSBNy member
    Sixth Anniversary 250 Love Its 500 Comments First Answer
    Obviously B listing is wrong, it violates the principle that polite people do it without letting anyone know and not doing it in a timely manner. But B lists are not always wrong, doing it badly is what is rude.
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  • thespeshulestsnowflakethespeshulestsnowflake member
    500 Love Its 500 Comments Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    WhatawagSBNy said:
    Obviously B listing is wrong, it violates the principle that polite people do it without letting anyone know and not doing it in a timely manner. But B lists are not always wrong, doing it badly is what is rude.

    Do you read what you write? You are contradicting yourself in two sentences.
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  • theartistformerlyknownastheartistformerlyknownas member
    10000 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers First Anniversary
    WhatawagSBNy said:
    Obviously B listing is wrong, it violates the principle that polite people do it without letting anyone know and not doing it in a timely manner. But B lists are not always wrong, doing it badly is what is rude.
    So B LISTING is wrong, but B LISTS are not wrong? Well sure, I suppose there's nothing inherently wrong with a list as long as you don't act upon the list.

    The fuck?
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  • charcoalandblushcharcoalandblush member
    Sixth Anniversary 500 Love Its 500 Comments First Answer
    edited January 2015
    lolo883 said: WhatawagSBNy said: Obviously B listing is wrong, it violates the principle that polite people do it without letting anyone know and not doing it in a timely manner. But B lists are not always wrong, doing it badly is what is rude. So B LISTING is wrong, but B LISTS are not wrong? Well sure, I suppose there's nothing inherently wrong with a list as long as you don't act upon the list.
    The fuck?

    ***BOX***



     I think what she's trying to say is <    being obvious about the fact that you're b-listing> is wrong but <subtly b-listing> is ok.

    Not saying I agree. Just saying that's how I read it.

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  • dalegayledalegayle member
    Third Anniversary First Comment

    I have a feeling we may be in your shoes this summer. I will probably feel a little hurt too.  We have 110 out of town guests and 80 in town.  Save the dates were sent out 6 months in advance. We are having a New Orleans wedding with very good room rates in the French Quarter.  Our venue has a minimum.  I am afraid we won't have the 135 guests we need.  Oh well, I guess we will add more appetizers and another course! ;)

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  • WhatawagSBNyWhatawagSBNy member
    Sixth Anniversary 250 Love Its 500 Comments First Answer
    thespeshulestsnowflake said:


    WhatawagSBNy said:

    Obviously B listing is wrong, it violates the principle that polite people do it without letting anyone know and not doing it in a timely manner. But B lists are not always wrong, doing it badly is what is rude.




    Do you read what you write? You are contradicting yourself in two sentences.

    ***************
    Let me rephrase the same thing:

    When you B list and do it in such an obvious way (obviously) as when you call someone on short notice and worse tell them well since ninety people cancelled we want you, that violates the principle of doing it in a polite way without letting anyone know.

    Which is what the columnist said too.

    I was not saying , that it is obvious that B listing is wrong. That would have called for a comma -
    Obviously, b listing is whatever.

    Check it out in an English grammar book.
    I did not contradict myself, you read it incorrectly.

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  • thespeshulestsnowflakethespeshulestsnowflake member
    500 Love Its 500 Comments Second Anniversary Name Dropper
    WhatawagSBNy said:
    WhatawagSBNy said:
    Obviously B listing is wrong, it violates the principle that polite people do it without letting anyone know and not doing it in a timely manner. But B lists are not always wrong, doing it badly is what is rude.

    Do you read what you write? You are contradicting yourself in two sentences.
    *************** Let me rephrase the same thing: When you B list and do it in such an obvious way (obviously) as when you call someone on short notice and worse tell them well since ninety people cancelled we want you, that violates the principle of doing it in a polite way without letting anyone know. Which is what the columnist said too. I was not saying , that it is obvious that B listing is wrong. That would have called for a comma - Obviously, b listing is whatever. Check it out in an English grammar book. I did not contradict myself, you read it incorrectly.

    Or if you didn't write in such a long winded manner, people would read incorrectly. All the same, either way, you are wrong. B listing, no matter how you do it, it rude.
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  • drunkenwitchdrunkenwitch member
    Ninth Anniversary 1000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    WhatawagSBNy said:

    Dear Abby on B listing. At the time Mother Pauline Phillips who was the original Dear Abby co-wrote this with daughter Jeanne Phillips. From the sun-sentinel.com



    Dear Abby: This concerns questioning the propriety of a telephone invitation to a wedding that came just two weeks before the wedding: I am sure many will join me in disagreeing with you.

    This is the very understandable system of the ``A`` list and the ``B`` list, not because of social order, but because of cost and family limitations.

    This past year, we received an invitation by phone from a dear friend who earlier had apologized for not including us in her limited number for her son`s wedding. It was 10 days before the wedding, and we were delighted to accept. Those invited early or late get to go and have a good time, and the host or hostess can fill all the seats. -- Adeline in Homewood, Ill.

    Dear Adeline: I admire your generous attitude; it has probably saved you many an ulcer. However, I still think it`s very insensitive to make guests feel that they are on any list other than the ``A`` list. And when an invitation to a formal affair is issued by telephone less than two weeks before the ``big day,`` the recipient cannot miss the implication.

    ----Write to Dear Abby, P.O. Box 69440, Hollywood, Calif. 90069

    Note that she does not say B listing is bad, but that the invitation was not timely, and the short notice by phone made it clear by implication that guest was B list. Violates principle, b posters still must receive the invitation with reasonable notice and not allowed to know if a list or b list.

    Your point: find it, get to it and state it.

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  • WhatawagSBNyWhatawagSBNy member
    Sixth Anniversary 250 Love Its 500 Comments First Answer
    edited January 2015
    Drunkenwitch says: Your point: find it, get to it and state it.

    Were you raised by telegraph operators. Or perhaps you never developed reading comprehension skills and cannot find your way around a sentence with dependent clauses?

    Just ask someone to show you how to use a scroll button, or swipe your finger to scroll. Then every time you see the dancing polar bear Avatar, use that knowledge and skip my post.

    You don't have to suffer through through reading my posts, I don't need yours. Win, win.

    Why keep reading, over and over if you know the result will be the same. Einstein's words on insanity come to mind.
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