Is it a second wedding?

[Deleted User] · February 2015

Okay, here goes.

In my religion, men and women cannot interact unless they're married. So that's what my guy and I did. We had an Islamic marriage ceremony done (Nikkah) so we could be together as a couple. We are not legally married and our fist 'wedding' was just him, myself, my mother and the imam (pastor). Now we are planning our traditional American wedding - big white dress, legalizing the marriage and all that. Is it considered pretending or having a fake second wedding if we didn't actually have a wedding in the first place and are not legal married? Or am I safe to call this my wedding?

*note: This wedding is happening over 2 years from the time we did the Islamic marriage.

*there are no vows in an Islamic marriage.

Jells2dot0 · February 2015

If your culture requires two separate ceremonies (religious and civil), it would not be considered a PPD. Did you have the choice of doing things together and making it legal or does it have to be separate?

However, this board is primarily for those who are getting married a second, or more, time because of divorce or death.

[Deleted User] · February 2015

Sorry is there somewhere else I can take this board? And while some imams do perform both, the imam who did ours did not. There is no marriage contract or legal representation.

Jells2dot0 · February 2015

Are you looking for etiquette feedback? I can move your post, but just want to make sure I move it to the right place.

[Deleted User] · February 2015

Yes Please Jells

Jells2dot0 · February 2015

Moved to Etiquette per OP's request

AddieCake · February 2015

I am confused. You can't interact unless you are married, so you got married but you say you are not legally married?

redoryx · February 2015

AddieCake said:

I am confused. You can't interact unless you are married, so you got married but you say you are not legally married?

I think they are married as far as their church is concerned but that's it. From a legal standpoint they aren't married yet.

firebabe6519 · February 2015

I wouldn't have any objections to the legal wedding following your religious wedding.

photokitty · February 2015

A few questions :
1) do you live in the USA?
2) does your family consider you married?
3) have other members of your family had the Nikkah and then a large American wedding?
4) will your family side eye you having one, or do people normal just quietly sign the legal paperwork after the Nikkah is done?
5) what would have happened had you and your man decided not to get legally married after celebrating your Nikkah ?

Since you aren't legally married, then I don't see this as second wedding, but I think you need to be aware of the traditions that your religions holds with the matter.

SP29 · February 2015

It sounds like the OP had a religious ceremony (for cultural reasons), but not a legal ceremony, and the religious ceremony is not recognized (at least in NA) as legal.

It is a bit of an odd scenario, but I think it's OK as long as you are honest with your guests.

I would look at it similar to a couple who lived common law for many years then decided to get married. You and your SO had the religious ceremony so you could be together, and even if you referred to each other as husband/wife, you wouldn't legally be married (for example, for tax purposes). Lots of people live common-law, in long-term committed relationships, and personally, I think of those couples the same as husband/wife (in that I don't think their relationship is any less valid, important, or meaningful than mine), but if they so decided years down the road, I would never be offended if they got married.

AddieCake · February 2015

I'm totally OK with this.

littlepep · February 2015

I agree with PPs. A unique situation, but seems ok to me.

theartistformerlyknownas · February 2015

I agree, as long as this would not offend your family/other guests within your religion, I would not side-eye it.

MyNameIsNot · February 2015

If you're married in the eyes of your religion for the purposes of accepting some of the benefits only offered to married couples, why would you not consider yourself married? Does everyone just consider that marriage to be a trivial matter, or do others within your religion accept it as marriage?

I'm not sure I see the distinction between this and doing the legal first to get health insurance.

photokitty · February 2015

MyNameIsNot said:
If you're married in the eyes of your religion for the purposes of accepting some of the benefits only offered to married couples, why would you not consider yourself married? Does everyone just consider that marriage to be a trivial matter, or do others within your religion accept it as marriage?

I'm not sure I see the distinction between this and doing the legal first to get health insurance.

You can't tell the difference between a cultural/religious tradition that prevents men and wine from interacting and getting married bc you don't want to pay for your own health insurance?

Both are ideas I would not personally participate in, but I can respect a cultural or religious practice. I can't respect anyone who wants to get married to scam on health care and have a ppd later

LondonLisa · February 2015

OP, where are you located and where was your original ceremony?

In the UK and in America, the legal and religious ceremony are the same thing as long as your Imam was recoginsed (which I'm willing to be is). If you and your culture view yourselves as married, why do you want the big white wedding? Even if you didn't have a civil ceremony, your Nikah (if performed in some countries, especially in the Middle East) would be legal. If you did it in the US, why didn't you have it be the same ceremony?

Also, are you saying that you aren't going to use any marriage benefits for 2 years? Insurance? Taxes? Anything? You already said that you got married so you can live with your husband in your culture. I just don't understand if you view yourself as married, your husband views you as married, your culture and religion view you as married, why you wouldn't just want to get on with it and go to city hall to file your license.

I know plenty of Muslims (and very observant ones) who didn't have to follow the "no men and women interacting" rules. My question is, if you are SO religious that you needed to have the Nikah to even talk with your husband, why wouldn't you make it the legal one as well? Why put on the show of an American-style white wedding? Doesn't your community already view you as married. I see this as no different to the military-style get married quick to get certain benefits and have a big wedding later.

What you are doing is really a slap in the face of the many Muslim men and women who have their Nikah (religiously and legally), and very disrespectful to the religion you allegedly hold very close. Honestly, yes, I feel like this is just a PPD in reverse.

Liatris2010 · February 2015

I'm assuming that since you and your husband are seen together, everyone knows you are married in the eyes of your religion? If that is the case and you want to make it legal in front of family and friends, I don't see the problem.

MyNameIsNot · February 2015

show previous quotes
photokitty said:
If you're married in the eyes of your religion for the purposes of accepting some of the benefits only offered to married couples, why would you not consider yourself married? Does everyone just consider that marriage to be a trivial matter, or do others within your religion accept it as marriage?

I'm not sure I see the distinction between this and doing the legal first to get health insurance.
You can't tell the difference between a cultural/religious tradition that prevents men and wine from interacting and getting married bc you don't want to pay for your own health insurance? Both are ideas I would not personally participate in, but I can respect a cultural or religious practice. I can't respect anyone who wants to get married to scam on health care and have a ppd later
No, I really don't. That's why I asked clarification questions (that she hasn't answered.)

If she disagreed with the teachings of her religion and wanted to "date" her husband before committing to him, she had the option to leave the religion or to "disobey" that part of the teachings. If this religion is truly her belief system, she would have considered that marriage her true marriage, not a convenience to get around a rule. Thus, my confusion.

On the flip, if it's common place to have these religious "marriages" to get around an outdated rule, but the community doesn't recognize them as marriage, it's a different scenario.

Honestly, this seems more like (but opposite) the ultraconservative Christian couple who gets legally married so that they can have sex/live together, but then has the PPD later. If the second event is the "real" wedding, then why does the first get you there? Also, from her post, it seems like one of her issues with the first wedding is that there weren't many guests.

Of course, if she is held in this religion against her will (psychologically), then everything changes, but she didn't say anything to suggest that that's the case.

I just don't see it as an automatic exception to the "rule" just because it is based on religion.

[Deleted User] · February 2015

To answer some questions - as I was away at work - I don't think doing so would be a slap in the face of any muslims - some choose never to do the legal marriage and MANY muslims get religiously married before the wedding so they can actually hold hands at the wedding and kiss and every thing like that.

In my religion there is no - if you want to date give up your religion. We cannot interact on our own until we get married. Also we were not living in a state that recognizes common-law so we are not considered common law married. My entire family wants me to have the big white wedding. Again, my Nikkah was my religious permission to be together in any capacity with my guy.

And simply because many muslims didn't follow the no interaction between men and women rules, it doesn't mean that all of us are willing to do that. That being said, if I married (religiously) him to be able to interact with him why would I immediately legally marry him if our religious marriage was the first time we were able to interact without an audience?

That said, our community knows were religiously married, but also knows that we are having a wedding later - that isn't tied to religion. Beyond that my family - who isn't Muslim - does not recognize my marriage at all because it isn't legal.

In addition to that, In my religion the marriage is performed first and then as much as days to months later, a big feast (Walimah) is held.

artbyallie · February 2015

Obviously this is not the case, but what would you have done if you had decided you didn't work out together and you didn't want a legal marriage to him? This is such a bizarre situation to me and I'm curious; I don't mean any offense.

LondonLisa · February 2015

WifeofPeace said:

To answer some questions - as I was away at work - I don't think doing so would be a slap in the face of any muslims - some choose never to do the legal marriage and MANY muslims get religiously married before the wedding so they can actually hold hands at the wedding and kiss and every thing like that.

In my religion there is no - if you want to date give up your religion. We cannot interact on our own until we get married. Also we were not living in a state that recognizes common-law so we are not considered common law married. My entire family wants me to have the big white wedding. Again, my Nikkah was my religious permission to be together in any capacity with my guy.

And simply because many muslims didn't follow the no interaction between men and women rules, it doesn't mean that all of us are willing to do that. That being said, if I married (religiously) him to be able to interact with him why would I immediately legally marry him if our religious marriage was the first time we were able to interact without an audience?

That said, our community knows were religiously married, but also knows that we are having a wedding later - that isn't tied to religion. Beyond that my family - who isn't Muslim - does not recognize my marriage at all because it isn't legal.

In addition to that, In my religion the marriage is performed first and then as much as days to months later, a big feast (Walimah) is held.

It sounds like you are going to have the big white civil wedding no matter what. Why are you waiting 2 years in between your Nikah and your civil marriage? Are you not going to use each other's insurance? How are you doing your taxes?

I guess what I don't understand is, if you are so religious and your community will shun you if you even talked to your husband (again, I have many very observant hijabi freinds that would consider this fairly extreme), wouldn't this same community shun a big Western-style white wedding? Won't this have men and women interacting together?

This just seems like you want a big American-style wedding day AND a religious Nikah, which isn't bad per se, but I think it is fairly silly to wait 2 years in between them.

I have been to many Muslim weddings (which I know are incredibly diverse, but I have been to weddings in the UAE, Pakistan, Egypt, Turkey and here in the UK) that include huge celebrations, but never 2 years after the fact. Where they needed legal documentation, they always figured out a way to include the civil side with the religious. This is like having a Catholic Mass, and then a big white civil wedding 2 years later after living as Husband and Wife. I don't understand the delay...

LtPowers · February 2015

LondonLisa said:

show previous quotes

WifeofPeace said:

To answer some questions - as I was away at work - I don't think doing so would be a slap in the face of any muslims - some choose never to do the legal marriage and MANY muslims get religiously married before the wedding so they can actually hold hands at the wedding and kiss and every thing like that.

In my religion there is no - if you want to date give up your religion. We cannot interact on our own until we get married. Also we were not living in a state that recognizes common-law so we are not considered common law married. My entire family wants me to have the big white wedding. Again, my Nikkah was my religious permission to be together in any capacity with my guy.

And simply because many muslims didn't follow the no interaction between men and women rules, it doesn't mean that all of us are willing to do that. That being said, if I married (religiously) him to be able to interact with him why would I immediately legally marry him if our religious marriage was the first time we were able to interact without an audience?

That said, our community knows were religiously married, but also knows that we are having a wedding later - that isn't tied to religion. Beyond that my family - who isn't Muslim - does not recognize my marriage at all because it isn't legal.

In addition to that, In my religion the marriage is performed first and then as much as days to months later, a big feast (Walimah) is held.

It sounds like you are going to have the big white civil wedding no matter what. Why are you waiting 2 years in between your Nikah and your civil marriage? Are you not going to use each other's insurance? How are you doing your taxes?

I guess what I don't understand is, if you are so religious and your community will shun you if you even talked to your husband (again, I have many very observant hijabi freinds that would consider this fairly extreme), wouldn't this same community shun a big Western-style white wedding? Won't this have men and women interacting together?

This just seems like you want a big American-style wedding day AND a religious Nikah, which isn't bad per se, but I think it is fairly silly to wait 2 years in between them.

I have been to many Muslim weddings (which I know are incredibly diverse, but I have been to weddings in the UAE, Pakistan, Egypt, Turkey and here in the UK) that include huge celebrations, but never 2 years after the fact. Where they needed legal documentation, they always figured out a way to include the civil side with the religious. This is like having a Catholic Mass, and then a big white civil wedding 2 years later after living as Husband and Wife. I don't understand the delay...

It sounds to me as if the Nikkah was required before hand just to determine if they wanted to get legally married. Essentially a two-year courtship. That doesn't seem excessive.

redoryx · February 2015

LondonLisa said:

show previous quotes

WifeofPeace said:

To answer some questions - as I was away at work - I don't think doing so would be a slap in the face of any muslims - some choose never to do the legal marriage and MANY muslims get religiously married before the wedding so they can actually hold hands at the wedding and kiss and every thing like that.

In my religion there is no - if you want to date give up your religion. We cannot interact on our own until we get married. Also we were not living in a state that recognizes common-law so we are not considered common law married. My entire family wants me to have the big white wedding. Again, my Nikkah was my religious permission to be together in any capacity with my guy.

And simply because many muslims didn't follow the no interaction between men and women rules, it doesn't mean that all of us are willing to do that. That being said, if I married (religiously) him to be able to interact with him why would I immediately legally marry him if our religious marriage was the first time we were able to interact without an audience?

That said, our community knows were religiously married, but also knows that we are having a wedding later - that isn't tied to religion. Beyond that my family - who isn't Muslim - does not recognize my marriage at all because it isn't legal.

In addition to that, In my religion the marriage is performed first and then as much as days to months later, a big feast (Walimah) is held.

It sounds like you are going to have the big white civil wedding no matter what. Why are you waiting 2 years in between your Nikah and your civil marriage? Are you not going to use each other's insurance? How are you doing your taxes?

I guess what I don't understand is, if you are so religious and your community will shun you if you even talked to your husband (again, I have many very observant hijabi freinds that would consider this fairly extreme), wouldn't this same community shun a big Western-style white wedding? Won't this have men and women interacting together?

This just seems like you want a big American-style wedding day AND a religious Nikah, which isn't bad per se, but I think it is fairly silly to wait 2 years in between them.

I have been to many Muslim weddings (which I know are incredibly diverse, but I have been to weddings in the UAE, Pakistan, Egypt, Turkey and here in the UK) that include huge celebrations, but never 2 years after the fact. Where they needed legal documentation, they always figured out a way to include the civil side with the religious. This is like having a Catholic Mass, and then a big white civil wedding 2 years later after living as Husband and Wife. I don't understand the delay...

I may be speaking completely out of my ass here, but I believe the delay is about trying to decide if they actually want to take the next step and be legally married. Up until this point they haven't even been able to hold hands or kiss -- it's sort of like (odd example but work with me) when one of the Duggars starts courting a guy. They don't "date" casually, when they court they court with the intention to marry and only after they have started courting are they allowed to do certain things although they are still VERY limited in the affection they are allowed to show each other.

In this case, now that the OP is religiously married does she have the opportunity to start to get to know her FI on a more intimate level -- not necessarily physically, let alone sexually -- but in all the other ways one gets to know a person they want to marry.

LondonLisa · February 2015

LtPowers said:

show previous quotes

LondonLisa said:

WifeofPeace said:

To answer some questions - as I was away at work - I don't think doing so would be a slap in the face of any muslims - some choose never to do the legal marriage and MANY muslims get religiously married before the wedding so they can actually hold hands at the wedding and kiss and every thing like that.

In my religion there is no - if you want to date give up your religion. We cannot interact on our own until we get married. Also we were not living in a state that recognizes common-law so we are not considered common law married. My entire family wants me to have the big white wedding. Again, my Nikkah was my religious permission to be together in any capacity with my guy.

And simply because many muslims didn't follow the no interaction between men and women rules, it doesn't mean that all of us are willing to do that. That being said, if I married (religiously) him to be able to interact with him why would I immediately legally marry him if our religious marriage was the first time we were able to interact without an audience?

That said, our community knows were religiously married, but also knows that we are having a wedding later - that isn't tied to religion. Beyond that my family - who isn't Muslim - does not recognize my marriage at all because it isn't legal.

In addition to that, In my religion the marriage is performed first and then as much as days to months later, a big feast (Walimah) is held.

It sounds like you are going to have the big white civil wedding no matter what. Why are you waiting 2 years in between your Nikah and your civil marriage? Are you not going to use each other's insurance? How are you doing your taxes?

I guess what I don't understand is, if you are so religious and your community will shun you if you even talked to your husband (again, I have many very observant hijabi freinds that would consider this fairly extreme), wouldn't this same community shun a big Western-style white wedding? Won't this have men and women interacting together?

This just seems like you want a big American-style wedding day AND a religious Nikah, which isn't bad per se, but I think it is fairly silly to wait 2 years in between them.

I have been to many Muslim weddings (which I know are incredibly diverse, but I have been to weddings in the UAE, Pakistan, Egypt, Turkey and here in the UK) that include huge celebrations, but never 2 years after the fact. Where they needed legal documentation, they always figured out a way to include the civil side with the religious. This is like having a Catholic Mass, and then a big white civil wedding 2 years later after living as Husband and Wife. I don't understand the delay...

It sounds to me as if the Nikkah was required before hand just to determine if they wanted to get legally married. Essentially a two-year courtship. That doesn't seem excessive.

A Nikah in the UK (and most Middle Eastern countries) IS the marriage. I have been to a couple of my friend's Nikahs and they always had a huge party afterwards or the next day (depending on their cultures). That was their wedding. I know some places require civil weddings too, but never 2 years after the fact. It is synonymous with a Catholic Mass wedding so there shouldn't be a need to wait 2 years.

[Deleted User] · February 2015

This.

*I don't know what I did to my last comment - it dissappeared... O.o

[Deleted User] · February 2015

You hit the nail on the head Redoryx

redoryx · February 2015

No, the American faux pas is to do the legal marriage first, usually JOP, and then have a PPD ("Pretty Princess Day") where you wear the big white dress and go through all the pomp and circumstance, often lying by omission and not telling guests they are already legally married.

In this case I think you're okay for no other reason than you aren't legally married. America is a country where the civil and religious ceremonies can be done in one go -- other countries and cultures keep them separate. Regardless, it's the paperwork itself that makes you legally married and eligible for the benefits that people want when they pull a PPD.

LondonLisa · February 2015

Thanks for clarifying and I'm sorry that you had to leave your home. Of course, I realise the practices are different, but from what I gathered from the range of Muslim weddings I have been to is the Nikah is pretty universally fundamental in being the wedding in Islam.

Are you saying you will wait an additional 2 years from now or you are throwing a party now? If it were me, I would just throw an awesome party now. Get a fab dress, go down to the courthouse and have your family and friends over for cake and fun times and enjoy the life with your husband.

Good luck.

[Deleted User] · February 2015

Thank you guys so much for clearing this up for me. As far as waiting another two year, no we're going to have a relatively relaxed, low-key wedding with friends and family within the next few months. I just didn't want to be doing anything offensive. Thank you guys so much.

AlexisA01 · February 2015

LondonLisa said:

OP, where are you located and where was your original ceremony?

In the UK and in America, the legal and religious ceremony are the same thing as long as your Imam was recoginsed (which I'm willing to be is). If you and your culture view yourselves as married, why do you want the big white wedding? Even if you didn't have a civil ceremony, your Nikah (if performed in some countries, especially in the Middle East) would be legal. If you did it in the US, why didn't you have it be the same ceremony?

Also, are you saying that you aren't going to use any marriage benefits for 2 years? Insurance? Taxes? Anything? You already said that you got married so you can live with your husband in your culture. I just don't understand if you view yourself as married, your husband views you as married, your culture and religion view you as married, why you wouldn't just want to get on with it and go to city hall to file your license.

I know plenty of Muslims (and very observant ones) who didn't have to follow the "no men and women interacting" rules. My question is, if you are SO religious that you needed to have the Nikah to even talk with your husband, why wouldn't you make it the legal one as well? Why put on the show of an American-style white wedding? Doesn't your community already view you as married. I see this as no different to the military-style get married quick to get certain benefits and have a big wedding later.

What you are doing is really a slap in the face of the many Muslim men and women who have their Nikah (religiously and legally), and very disrespectful to the religion you allegedly hold very close. Honestly, yes, I feel like this is just a PPD in reverse.

What....no. Not entirely true. I'm Muslim and can tell you depending on where you live (where your family is from) you go by those guidelines. This rubs me the wrong way on so many levels.

Is it a second wedding?

Re: Is it a second wedding?

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