Girl or Woman?

ashley8918 · May 2015

lolo883 said:

photokitty said:

ashley8918 said:

bizzy592 said:

tfmrserwin said:
I would never call a grown man a boy though, that seems really weird.
I guess this is what bothers me about using 'girl' to refer to a grown woman.
Exactly. Why the double standard?
I use female, woman, girl and lady interchangeably, dependent on the situation and context. I also use boy to describe men - so it's not a double standard. I always refer to my grown brothers as "the boys" and if DH is out with his male friends - he's out with the boys.

To me it boils down to context. If someone is using the term girl to suggest they are young and inexperienced as an insult, then I would be pissed. If someone uses it to identify my sex - then I could care less. But then I'm in camp "ladies - NBD" too.

ETA - for my it's guys and gals. Never guys and girls. Or just a gender neutral guys for both.

I was specifically referring to tfmrserwin's statement that it is okay to call grown women "girls", but not okay to call grown men "boys".

VulgarGirl · May 2015

I call people by their names.

"Have Jane cover the phones" vs. "Have the girl cover the phones". I mean...I know the names of the people I work with.

I use chick/dude/broad/girl/guy a lot. I call everyone, regardless of genitals or gender, dude. Even my mom. Drives her nuts.

madamerwin · May 2015

ashley8918 said: lolo883 said: photokitty said: ashley8918 said: bizzy592 said: tfmrserwin said: I would never call a grown man a boy though, that seems really weird.

I guess this is what bothers me about using 'girl' to refer to a grown woman.

Exactly. Why the double standard?

I use female, woman, girl and lady interchangeably, dependent on the situation and context. I also use boy to describe men - so it's not a double standard. I always refer to my grown brothers as "the boys" and if DH is out with his male friends - he's out with the boys.
To me it boils down to context. If someone is using the term girl to suggest they are young and inexperienced as an insult, then I would be pissed. If someone uses it to identify my sex - then I could care less. But then I'm in camp "ladies - NBD" too.
ETA - for my it's guys and gals. Never guys and girls. Or just a gender neutral guys for both.

I was specifically referring to tfmrserwin's statement that it is okay to call grown women "girls", but not okay to call grown men "boys".
---BOXES---

Never said it's ok, I just stated my opinion. And then I conceded that it is indeed contradictory.

And after further thought, I do use "boys" when referring to FI and his friends. Girl and boy are terms used to refer to familiars.

ashley8918 · May 2015

tfmrserwin said:
ashley8918 said:

lolo883 said:

photokitty said:

ashley8918 said:

bizzy592 said:

tfmrserwin said:
I would never call a grown man a boy though, that seems really weird.
I guess this is what bothers me about using 'girl' to refer to a grown woman.
Exactly. Why the double standard?
I use female, woman, girl and lady interchangeably, dependent on the situation and context. I also use boy to describe men - so it's not a double standard. I always refer to my grown brothers as "the boys" and if DH is out with his male friends - he's out with the boys.

To me it boils down to context. If someone is using the term girl to suggest they are young and inexperienced as an insult, then I would be pissed. If someone uses it to identify my sex - then I could care less. But then I'm in camp "ladies - NBD" too.

ETA - for my it's guys and gals. Never guys and girls. Or just a gender neutral guys for both.
I was specifically referring to tfmrserwin's statement that it is okay to call grown women "girls", but not okay to call grown men "boys".

---BOXES---

Never said it's ok, I just stated my opinion. And then I conceded that it is indeed contradictory.

And after further thought, I do use "boys" when referring to FI and his friends. Girl and boy are terms used to refer to familiars.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh yeah, that wasn't a dig at you. I was just explaining to Photokitty why I used the term double standard in the first place.

madamerwin · May 2015

ashley8918 said: tfmrserwin said: ashley8918 said: lolo883 said: photokitty said: ashley8918 said: bizzy592 said: tfmrserwin said: I would never call a grown man a boy though, that seems really weird.

I guess this is what bothers me about using 'girl' to refer to a grown woman.

Exactly. Why the double standard?

I use female, woman, girl and lady interchangeably, dependent on the situation and context. I also use boy to describe men - so it's not a double standard. I always refer to my grown brothers as "the boys" and if DH is out with his male friends - he's out with the boys.
To me it boils down to context. If someone is using the term girl to suggest they are young and inexperienced as an insult, then I would be pissed. If someone uses it to identify my sex - then I could care less. But then I'm in camp "ladies - NBD" too.
ETA - for my it's guys and gals. Never guys and girls. Or just a gender neutral guys for both.

I was specifically referring to tfmrserwin's statement that it is okay to call grown women "girls", but not okay to call grown men "boys".
---BOXES---
Never said it's ok, I just stated my opinion. And then I conceded that it is indeed contradictory.
And after further thought, I do use "boys" when referring to FI and his friends. Girl and boy are terms used to refer to familiars.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh yeah, that wasn't a dig at you. I was just explaining to Photokitty why I used the term double standard in the first place.

----Why do boxes hate me?----

I agree, it is a double standard. But I'm ok being called "girl" by people I know, mainly because I do identify with the term (I am not sure I will ever feel like a "woman"). But I can see why it would bother a lot of people. I guess it's just contextual/personal.

madamerwin · May 2015

MagicInk said:
I call people by their names.

"Have Jane cover the phones" vs. "Have the girl cover the phones". I mean...I know the names of the people I work with.

I use chick/dude/broad/girl/guy a lot. I call everyone, regardless of genitals or gender, dude. Even my mom. Drives her nuts.

Do people use "girl" when they know the person's name? THAT seems super weird and not very respectful. I only use lady/girl/woman when referring to someone whose name I don't know, or when talking about someone in the third person who the listener doesn't know. (As in "Hey Joan, see that lady over there? She's Barbara, she is in charge of snacks.")

photokitty · May 2015

ashley8918 said:

tfmrserwin said:
ashley8918 said:

lolo883 said:

photokitty said:

ashley8918 said:

bizzy592 said:

tfmrserwin said:
I would never call a grown man a boy though, that seems really weird.
I guess this is what bothers me about using 'girl' to refer to a grown woman.
Exactly. Why the double standard?
I use female, woman, girl and lady interchangeably, dependent on the situation and context. I also use boy to describe men - so it's not a double standard. I always refer to my grown brothers as "the boys" and if DH is out with his male friends - he's out with the boys.

To me it boils down to context. If someone is using the term girl to suggest they are young and inexperienced as an insult, then I would be pissed. If someone uses it to identify my sex - then I could care less. But then I'm in camp "ladies - NBD" too.

ETA - for my it's guys and gals. Never guys and girls. Or just a gender neutral guys for both.
I was specifically referring to tfmrserwin's statement that it is okay to call grown women "girls", but not okay to call grown men "boys".

---BOXES---

Never said it's ok, I just stated my opinion. And then I conceded that it is indeed contradictory.

And after further thought, I do use "boys" when referring to FI and his friends. Girl and boy are terms used to refer to familiars.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh yeah, that wasn't a dig at you. I was just explaining to Photokitty why I used the term double standard in the first place.

*****************

Totally understand both of you. I was just quoting to say it's not a double standard for me - merely MHO on the suggestion of double standards. No judgment or angst toward anyone, I swear

I feel like there is a bit of anxiety over the use of quotes lately. It's not always incendiary or calling someone out. Sometimes (frequently) it's just bc the statement made you think about something and you want to tether your response to it for background.

TrixieJess · May 2015

lurkergirl said:
This is one of those things where people within a group can call each other/themselves something that outsiders cannot. I sometimes call myself/my friends "girls" (although I'm trying to get out of the habit). But a man, particularly one at work? No, he cannot. Regardless of how he hears me refer to myself.

This is similar to That White Dude acting all affronted that he's not "allowed" to use the N-word even though he just totally heard a black guy say it tho! (Clearly I don't think being called a girl is anywhere NEAR as offensive as use of the n-word, just an example of how the norms for appropriate usage are parallel).

ETA: this is not always a battle I'm going to pick, though. If an old man calls my friends and me "girls" at his little cafe or whatever, I'm not going to make a stink. But I'll certainly tell my friend to stop referring to the women he dates as "girls" or "chicks."

I always say chicks! Is that a word we aren't using anymore? I'm not easily offended and admittedly sometimes don't realize when things I think are meaningless are actually offensive to others.

To be clear, I don't say that at work, but I do in any other situation.

Me too! I was worried I was the only one reading through the posts. Or Chiquita.

KatieinBkln · May 2015

lurkergirl said:

KatieinBkln said:
This is one of those things where people within a group can call each other/themselves something that outsiders cannot. I sometimes call myself/my friends "girls" (although I'm trying to get out of the habit). But a man, particularly one at work? No, he cannot. Regardless of how he hears me refer to myself.

This is similar to That White Dude acting all affronted that he's not "allowed" to use the N-word even though he just totally heard a black guy say it tho! (Clearly I don't think being called a girl is anywhere NEAR as offensive as use of the n-word, just an example of how the norms for appropriate usage are parallel).

ETA: this is not always a battle I'm going to pick, though. If an old man calls my friends and me "girls" at his little cafe or whatever, I'm not going to make a stink. But I'll certainly tell my friend to stop referring to the women he dates as "girls" or "chicks."
I always say chicks! Is that a word we aren't using anymore? I'm not easily offended and admittedly sometimes don't realize when things I think are meaningless are actually offensive to others.

To be clear, I don't say that at work, but I do in any other situation.

YOU can say it.

ETA: Trust me, if you heard this (otherwise kind, cool guy) referring to "this chick I went on a date with" it would rub you the wrong way too, I think.

FiancB · May 2015

It kinda depends on the context. At school, I call most people girls because most of us are young and students and sort of subordinate. If I'm talking about some random adult, I usually say "that lady over there". Otherwise, woman.

Not really appropriate at work. I guess I said girls a lot when working at Applebee's, but that's Applebee's- kind of goes with the student thing.

I agree though I'm 28 and just now starting to think of myself more as a woman.

Kahlyla · May 2015

I guess it depends on context for me. No, being called "a girl" in just about any context at work would not be appropriate. But I can definitely go out for a "girls' night" and I don't feel like that's trivializing or belittling my friends and me in any way (I think "boys' night" also works).

We've also talked on this forum about how "lady" can be very inappropriate, and I agree, but I also think "lady" and "gentleman" can often be the best way to refer to a customer. Like back when I worked at sandwich counters and such, if I needed some help from my boss I might say, "this gentleman was wondering..." or "this lady needs..." I feel like that just sounds nicer than saying "this woman" or "that man over there".

I think I had "chicks" very strongly beaten out of me when I was a kid by Archie Comics! Betty and Veronica were very against it!

bizzy592 · May 2015

photokitty said:

ashley8918 said:

tfmrserwin said:
ashley8918 said:

---BOXES---

Never said it's ok, I just stated my opinion. And then I conceded that it is indeed contradictory.

And after further thought, I do use "boys" when referring to FI and his friends. Girl and boy are terms used to refer to familiars.

I feel like there is a bit of anxiety over the use of quotes lately. It's not always incendiary or calling someone out. Sometimes (frequently) it's just bc the statement made you think about something and you want to tether your response to it for background.

ETA BOXES _________

Definitely not a dig. Your statement helped define for me the general feeling of ickyness that I felt when my (male) coworker called her a girl.

To clarify, he's new-ish, and was asking her name: "What's the name of the red-haired girl on your team?"

In my life I do mix it up between lady, young lady, and woman. I'll use girl occasionally, but usually only if I'm speaking to someone who's early twenties or under. With friends it's lady-dates, ladies brunch/lunch, etc.. I've got 2 friends who use 'gal' as the pairing to 'guy'.

I think I'm probably sensitive to it in a work environment because I'm usually the youngest person in the room (by 20-30 years), and often the only woman. Combined with having young features, and a higher pitched voice, I have to work hard to be taken seriously in a room full of old white guys.

ChemFanatic25 · May 2015

Oh gosh, I just say "guys" for everyone no matter what gender they are/identify with outside of work. I feel weird calling grown men and women "boys and girls", though I'm sure I do it. Normally at work it's fellow employees or coworkers. Outside of work - "hey guys!" because I'm more familiar with my friends then I am my coworkers. Babies don't get identified except with "baby" and "it".

On the knot "ladies" but I can stop that if people find it offensive and just start saying "it" or "them" or just "people". Hmmm how would that work? "Hello people of the knot" . . . oh wait! I like "Hello World!" I am going to start doing that with my OP's. :-D So much fun!

theartistformerlyknownas · May 2015

ChemFanatic25 said:
Oh gosh, I just say "guys" for everyone no matter what gender they are/identify with outside of work. I feel weird calling grown men and women "boys and girls", though I'm sure I do it. Normally at work it's fellow employees or coworkers. Outside of work - "hey guys!" because I'm more familiar with my friends then I am my coworkers. Babies don't get identified except with "baby" and "it".
On the knot "ladies" but I can stop that if people find it offensive and just start saying "it" or "them" or just "people". Hmmm how would that work? "Hello people of the knot" . . . oh wait! I like "Hello World!" I am going to start doing that with my OP's. :-D So much fun!

What's wrong with Knotties?

beachyone15 · May 2015

How do we feel about "ma'am"?

[Deleted User] · May 2015

beachyone15 said:
How do we feel about "ma'am"?

I'm not a ma'am fan (lol) unless it's coming from an old southern woman.

bizzy592 · May 2015

abcdevonn said:

beachyone15 said:
How do we feel about "ma'am"?
I'm not a ma'am fan (lol) unless it's coming from an old southern woman.

Or a handsome southern man

KatieinBkln · May 2015

beachyone15 said:
How do we feel about "ma'am"?

I've only recently started hearing it. I've been "miss" forever.

It makes me feel a little old, but I don't really care. I feel like it has a male equivalent ("sir") so it doesn't offend me on feminist terms.

hellosweetie1015 · May 2015

beachyone15 said:How do we feel about "ma'am"?

I call everyone ma'am. (Possibly due to my very Southern location). ETA I also use sir, but nobody asked about that haha.

I will protest if I am called ma'am by a person of 17 or 18. You're only 8 years younger than me, I'm not cool with that. 16.... eh... I'll probably say something. But kids - the way I see it, it's not my place to tell them not to call me ma'am. Their parents have instituted a policy of addressing older people as "ma'am / sir" and the kid is respecting their parents' rules (and the people to whom they are speaking) and it pleases my cranky old heart to see kids being respectful.

Andplusalso when you're nine, 26 seems old as Methuselah. So. To them, I am old hahahah.

There is not a lot better than hearing a handsome young Southern gentleman say "ma'am"... as long as they are not saying it TO ME. At which point it loses all its power.

labro · May 2015

beachyone15 said:
How do we feel about "ma'am"?

I say it ALL the time. My parents raised us to say yes sir/no sir, yes ma'am/no ma'am (military family) and that probably got reinforced by spending most of my young adulthood in Georgia. I say it to be polite and respectful of someone.

madamerwin · May 2015

beachyone15 said:How do we feel about "ma'am"?

I don't feel like a ma'am, but I have definitely had people call me that. I am fine with it. The only time I use it is in very specific phrases and contexts with people I know: "Thank you, ma'am" when a close coworker opens a door for me "Yes, sir" when a friend asks me if we're meeting at 6... And only then if I am in a certain (chipper) mood. Not sure if that makes sense...

photokitty · May 2015

hellosweetie1015 said:
beachyone15 said:
How do we feel about "ma'am"?

I call everyone ma'am. (Possibly due to my very Southern location). ETA I also use sir, but nobody asked about that haha.

I will protest if I am called ma'am by a person of 17 or 18. You're only 8 years younger than me, I'm not cool with that. 16.... eh... I'll probably say something. But kids - the way I see it, it's not my place to tell them not to call me ma'am. Their parents have instituted a policy of addressing older people as "ma'am / sir" and the kid is respecting their parents' rules (and the people to whom they are speaking) and it pleases my cranky old heart to see kids being respectful.

Andplusalso when you're nine, 26 seems old as Methuselah. So. To them, I am old hahahah.

There is not a lot better than hearing a handsome young Southern gentleman say "ma'am"... as long as they are not saying it TO ME. At which point it loses all its power.

ETA ************* BOXES**************

If I get carded and the person says "ma'am" I tell them if they think I'm young enough to card then need to say "miss!" Unless it's a handsome man in a cowboy hat - they get a pass on ma'am, always have regardless of my age.

beachyone15 · May 2015

Good to know that I'm not the only who feels differently when a cowboy says it!

I used to have an ex who was raised in the south and always called me "darlin'". It was the cutest thing coming from him.

southernbelle0915 · May 2015

beachyone15 said:
How do we feel about "ma'am"?

I think it's polite.

ashley8918 · May 2015

beachyone15 said:
How do we feel about "ma'am"?

I don't like it and find it really annoying, but i'm not super offended or anything.

falsara · May 2015

I normally use people's names, unless I'm saying "girls night" or "I'm going out with the guys". Or people, I use people a lot.

As far as ma'am goes. It doesn't bother me, because I know it's a term of respect. I'd much rather here it from a man in a cowboy hat than a coworker at the office though.

VulgarGirl · May 2015

beachyone15 said:
How do we feel about "ma'am"?

I have never put that much thought into it and it really doesn't bug me. At all.

I get ma'am and miss pretty equally.

VulgarGirl · May 2015

bizzy592 said:

abcdevonn said:

beachyone15 said:
How do we feel about "ma'am"?
I'm not a ma'am fan (lol) unless it's coming from an old southern woman.
Or a handsome southern man

Or a gorgeous sountern woman.

ChemFanatic25 · May 2015

lolo883 said:

ChemFanatic25 said:
Oh gosh, I just say "guys" for everyone no matter what gender they are/identify with outside of work. I feel weird calling grown men and women "boys and girls", though I'm sure I do it. Normally at work it's fellow employees or coworkers. Outside of work - "hey guys!" because I'm more familiar with my friends then I am my coworkers. Babies don't get identified except with "baby" and "it".
On the knot "ladies" but I can stop that if people find it offensive and just start saying "it" or "them" or just "people". Hmmm how would that work? "Hello people of the knot" . . . oh wait! I like "Hello World!" I am going to start doing that with my OP's. :-D So much fun!
What's wrong with Knotties?

But "hello world" has such a fun ring to it. :-)

I was also raised to say "ma'am" and "sir". My mom told me I had to call her "ma'am" and my dad "sir" because it was disrespectful if I didn't. I actually still sometimes resort back to it even though it's been a while since I've been scolded. I say "sir" if I accidentally resort to my old ways even if they have female parts. I get weird looks. I don't blame them.

kaitlynmichelle · May 2015

sarawifenow said:
This is exactly where my mind went with this:

So glad it wasn't just me that immediately thought of this!

Girl or Woman?

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