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Need Advice About Getting A Dog

themosthappy91themosthappy91 member
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So, I really want to get a dog.  But I'm not sure where to start.  Here are the basics:

1. We have an (extremely friendly) cat, so our first priority is making sure above all else that we do not get a dog that could potentially hurt her.  I know that within every breed there are some individuals who are friendly and some who aren't, but I also believe that some breeds do have a baseline higher prey-drive and therefore would not be a good fit for us.  I've heard horror stories of huskies/shepherds etc. who are raised with cats, got along with them their entire lives, and then one day just got too riled up and killed them... so that is like my worst nightmare.  

2. I would like a puppy if possible... because they are cute and snuggly and you have more influence on their training.  I feel sort of like a terrible person for not being more open to adopting an older dog when there are so many in need, but... I kind of really want a puppy.

3. My H and I both like large dogs- no small dogs for us.  The smallest dog I've ever owned was about 45 pounds and I wouldn't want anything smaller than that (and would prefer a larger dog in general).

4. I really want to rescue if possible because I feel like that's the right thing to do, though I will definitely consider going through a breeder if that's what ultimately makes more sense for our family.

So that's what we're looking for, but I'm getting increasingly concerned that it isn't possible to find a dog that meets all those criteria and I don't really know where to look anymore.  Over the past six months or so I've been keeping an eye on all the local shelters and it seems like 1) the almost never have puppies and 2) 90% of the dogs they have are some sort of pit bull mix, which would make me nervous around the cat (no need to tell me you have a pit bull who just LOVES your cat because I definitely do know that can happen... it just feels like a risk to me).  Then there's the fact that a lot of shelter dogs are "mutts" with all kinds of unknown heritage, so I just feel like I could be getting an "aggressive" breed of dog without even knowing it.  There are relatively few breeds of large dogs that are considered completely "safe" around cats- golden retrievers and labs come to mind the most- but those dogs are very rarely left at shelters (I just don't think I'm ever going to get lucky and walk into a humane society with an adorable golden retriever puppy for adoption, lol).  

So what do I do?  Am I making too much of the specific breed of the dog we will be getting, and trust that temperament will always win out over instinct?  Do I need to just put aside my guilt and start looking at dogs from breeders in order to ensure getting a dog that can live harmoniously with our cat?  Is there somewhere I should be looking that I'm not?  Help me Knotties!
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Re: Need Advice About Getting A Dog

  • themosthappy91themosthappy91 member
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    ashley8918 said:

    "Aggressive breeds" are complete bullshit, but since you seem completely unwilling to accept that, I have no advice for you at all.

    Don't get me wrong, I completely know and believe that it's not the breeds that are aggressive but the individuals! I just acknowledge the fact that there are more aggressive individuals within certain breeds than others, for a number of reasons- inbreeding, the purpose the dogs were originally bred for etc.  And then there's a fact that some breeds dogs can just "do more damage" than others- the bite strength of a golden retriever is never going to rival that of a pit bull.  

    If we didn't have a cat I would absolutely be adopting a dog from from of the so-called "aggressive breed" list (I LOVE huskies, pit bulls, rottweilers etc.), but I'm just so worried about having this wonderful sweet dog who one day has his/her prey drive set in and it ending in tragedy, because I've known that to happen. 
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  • themosthappy91themosthappy91 member
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    huskypuppy14 said:

    show previous quotes
    We got a dog from a rescue organization, and it pretty much meets all your criteria. He's about 45 pounds at 9 months old, he's a border collie lab mix. We don't have a cat, but my parents do, and he's gone over there and been absolutely fine with her. We're more concerned that the cat would scratch the dog than the dog hurting the cat. 

    Not sure where you are located, but there were tons of lab mixes at the rescue. How it worked for us, was once we were approved to adopt we just kept checking the website until we saw a dog we liked. We contacted them and said we were interested in puppy X and they put a hold on him. Our dog is from Tennessee but we live in Massachusetts. They brought him up once he was old enough. They quarantined him for a couple days and then we brought him home.

    I'm a big believer in that it's more the owners than the breed that determine how aggressive a dog will be. Pitbulls get a really bad rap. I know tons of people with Pitbulls or Rottweilers and they are so friendly. It's how they are trained, and if you train him/her well, most likely they will be fine. 

    A co worker of mine had to get rid of their Irish setter because he attacked his son. His son pulled the dog's ears or tail or something. Any animal can be aggressive when they are cornered. 


    That's a really good point, it'd probably help a lot to get in the system before there's actually a dog we want so we can move quickly if the right pup comes along... how did you come across a puppy that was in a shelter so far away from your state though?  I have only been looking at in-state shelters and rescues because I assumed transport wouldn't be feasible.  
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  • themosthappy91themosthappy91 member
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    ashley8918 said:

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    All of this is still complete made up bullshit. The "prey drive" does not just randomly "set in". Dogs that are trained to be aggressive (by you) are aggressive. Period. If they attack/kill it is because they are provoked to do so. Not because of some made up ass drive.

    Oh, and guess what? It has never been proven that the bite strength of a pit bull is any greater that that of a similar-sized dog.
    I'm sorry but I've known too many families who have had bad things happen with their dogs to believe that dogs are only aggressive if you train them to be aggressive.  The reality is, sometimes dogs just get "riled up" and accidentally bite or kill things.  It really isn't even "aggression" because to the dog it's like an extension of "playing"- it's not their fault.  

    A close childhood friend of mine had a wonder husky who they raised from a puppy and who always got along beautifully with their cat.  Until one day my friend's parents we sitting in bed watching TV and getting ready to go to sleep, and the dog brought in the cat, dead in its mouth, as a "present" (like dogs sometimes do), with completely no comprehension that it had done anything wrong.  These people certainly hadn't treated the dog in any way to make it aggressive, and the dog certainly wasn't acting maliciously.  But it probably just got to chasing the cat around and took it too far.  If you can't tell, this incident is a large part of what makes me so cautious about this decision!

    Basically every book/website/breeder says certain types of dogs should not be kept with small animals because they have a natural prey drive that will kick in... so I don't really know where you're getting your info from because I think that fact is pretty established.  
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  • themosthappy91themosthappy91 member
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    @ashley8918 I find this website ( http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/dogbreeds/) is really useful about being honest about the pros and cons of owning certain types of dogs, including when a given breed of dog will have an inclination to chase and hunt things that run from them.  But if you don't believe this one literally countless others will affirm that some breeds of dogs do in fact have a higher prey drive as a baseline- just google any variation of "dogs to get/not to get with small pets", "pros and cons of different types of dogs" etc.  Or talk to some established breeders who work exclusively with specific dog breeds- especially "Spitz family" dog breeds, if you're looking for dogs that are particularly known to have higher prey drives and an inclination to chase small animals.  
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  • themosthappy91themosthappy91 member
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    hellosweetie1015 said:

    http://www.pickthepit.com/

    Aggressive dogs get that way by their owners. Were certain breeds of dog bred for some specific purpose? Yes. I will grant you that. Chihuahuas were bred for a specific type of hunting - I think rats. All dogs came about for some purpose. Goldens and labs are hunting dogs.

    Get that out of your mind and focus on temperament and history. Breeding does not a killer make. Training does. Caring to ensure your dog is not vicious will make certain it never is.

    It sounds more like you're trying to justify going to a breeder to me, honestly. Which is fine. I have a dog from a breeder. I didn't buy her, she was going to the shelter if I didn't adopt her. But a reputable breeder - even a golden breeder - will tell you that poor training will get you an aggressive dog no matter how well-bred the dog is.

    I think that's a very good thing for me to hear... I guess I need to accept that these are animals and on some level there's always going to be a level of unpredictability with their behavior, so I really just need to focus on finding the dog with the right individual temperament and not worry so much about the "breed characteristics".  

    Though I do disagree with you that caring to ensure your dog isn't vicious will guarantee it never will be.   See my above story about the husky, for example- I know those people extensively trained, socialized, and loved that dog... but like I said, there's always some level of unpredictability.     
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  • themosthappy91themosthappy91 member
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    ashley8918 said:

    show previous quotes


    I'm sorry but I've known too many families who have had bad things happen with their dogs to believe that dogs are only aggressive if you train them to be aggressive.      The reality is, sometimes dogs just get "riled up" and accidentally bite or kill things.  It really isn't even "aggression" because to the dog it's like an extension of "playing"- it's not their fault.  

    A close childhood friend of mine had a wonder husky who they raised from a puppy and who always got along beautifully with their cat.  Until one day my friend's parents we sitting in bed watching TV and getting ready to go to sleep, and the dog brought in the cat, dead in its mouth, as a "present" (like dogs sometimes do), with completely no comprehension that it had done anything wrong.  These people certainly hadn't treated the dog in any way to make it aggressive, and the dog certainly wasn't acting maliciously.  But it probably just got to chasing the cat around and took it too far.  If you can't tell, this incident is a large part of what makes me so cautious about this decision!

    Basically every book/website/breeder says certain types of dogs should not be kept with small animals because they have a natural prey drive that will kick in... so I don't really know where you're getting your info from because I think that fact is pretty established.  

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    I mean, you can believe that a unicorn killed Lincoln, too. Having a certain belief doesn't make it not ass-backwards.

    Anecdotal evidence is not the same as facts. Do you know for a fact how that dog was treated? That the cat didn't attack it? That it had no comprehension of what it had done? Any of the circumstances whatsoever? Unless you are the dog or were a witness to the dog's entire life, i'm going to go with no.

    And no. Generally when you are looking to adopt, there is information regarding that specific dog's (not the breed's) temperament around kids, other dogs, other animals, etc. 


    Like are you honestly trying to argue that there are no personality characteristics that are generally common (though not universal) to different breeds of dogs?  Literally anyone who works with dogs professionally will tell you otherwise.  Dogs became different breeds for a reason- because people were selecting for certain characteristics.  

    As I said before, do a google search, go to the library, call up some breeder- basically all of them will confirm for you that certain breed and families of dogs are not ideally kept with small animals (though many individuals provide exceptions) because they have an instinct to chase small animals that run away from them.  

    You are basically saying a dog is the sum of how you treat it, which is so backwards its laughable.  Is how you treat your dog a huge factor?  Of course.  But dogs, like people, each have their own personality, and so yes, sometimes dogs who are treated wonderfully will lash out because that's just something inside of them.  Again, just like people.

    But the fact that you're devolving to the "well you don't know every single thing about that dog's life so you can't say anything about it" line of argument just tells me you're looking to argue rather than discuss, and honestly I find you pretty tiresome.  
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  • themosthappy91themosthappy91 member
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    lyndausvi said:

    I'm of the thought that certain breeds do better with stronger masters. Others do fine with a softy.  Certain breeds are better with more active owners.  Others are fine with lazier owners.    Each breed has different needs. 


     My bulldog is pretty active as far as bulldogs go, but he does not need a 2 miles walk everyday. Perfect for DH.  However, he does need a stronger owner or they will walk over you.  They are pretty damn stubborn.  I have to pretty firm with him on who is boss.

    My rescue is part german shepherd,not sure the other part(s).  He is overall pretty chill and easy.  I do not have to be as strong as owner with him as the bulldog.  As far as activity goes, he does need long  daily walks.  Which is great for me. I love taking long walks and hike.   Outside of his daily long walk, he is less active then the bulldog.

    I understand Ashley's point, however I personally feel there is nothing wrong with scratching off a certain breed from your list.  If you do not feel comfortable and/or a strong enough master for a certain breed it's not doing you or the dog any good being together.

    For example, I like boarder collies, but I think I would be a horrible boarder collie owner. They require a lot of exercise and I don't think it's in me. Not willing to find out either.  I should not be shamed for rejecting a certain breed when I know I would not be a good fit for the dog.    

    For now,  I will stick to my bulldog and my german Shepard/whatever mix.  They both  fix our personalities better.


    That's a really good point... and though I grew up with dogs, this will be my first as an adult on my own, so it might be good for me to consider breed's that are known for being trainable for "beginners".  

    BTW I love shepherds and I really hope to own one one day... they are the most beautiful dogs!
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  • ashley8918ashley8918 member
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    themosthappy91 said:

    show previous quotes

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    I mean, you can believe that a unicorn killed Lincoln, too. Having a certain belief doesn't make it not ass-backwards.

    Anecdotal evidence is not the same as facts. Do you know for a fact how that dog was treated? That the cat didn't attack it? That it had no comprehension of what it had done? Any of the circumstances whatsoever? Unless you are the dog or were a witness to the dog's entire life, i'm going to go with no.

    And no. Generally when you are looking to adopt, there is information regarding that specific dog's (not the breed's) temperament around kids, other dogs, other animals, etc. 


    Like are you honestly trying to argue that there are no personality characteristics that are generally common (though not universal) to different breeds of dogs?  Literally anyone who works with dogs professionally will tell you otherwise.  Dogs became different breeds for a reason- because people were selecting for certain characteristics.  

    As I said before, do a google search, go to the library, call up some breeder- basically all of them will confirm for you that certain breed and families of dogs are not ideally kept with small animals (though many individuals provide exceptions) because they have an instinct to chase small animals that run away from them.  

    You are basically saying a dog is the sum of how you treat it, which is so backwards its laughable.  Is how you treat your dog a huge factor?  Of course.  But dogs, like people, each have their own personality, and so yes, sometimes dogs who are treated wonderfully will lash out because that's just something inside of them.  Again, just like people.

    But the fact that you're devolving to the "well you don't know every single thing about that dog's life so you can't say anything about it" line of argument just tells me you're looking to argue rather than discuss, and honestly I find you pretty tiresome.  




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    This is actually not at all what I said. I said that is is anecdotal evidence because you don't know the facts. Anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy, and doesn't prove any point ever, really. There is nothing quantitative or scientific about it, and it is largely unreliable.


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  • themosthappy91themosthappy91 member
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    ashley8918 said:

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    Thanks, It turns out, I know how to do the google. 

     I am not interested in what some rando named Michelle, with no known credentials has to say. Now, a reputable source like the ASPCA? Absolutely.


    ETA and I am not looking for a dog. I have a perfectly wonderful beagle and a Dachshund-Pit Bull mix that were trained properly and are not at all agressive, because that is how it works.

    __________________________________

    Ashley I feel like you are trying to argue with me but we are actually on the exact same page.  The first line of that article: "Dog breeds are characterized by certain physical and behavioral traits".  That is literally ALL I'm saying- some dog breeds have certain behavioral traits that makes them a better fit for certain living situations than others.  I don't believe that all a dog is is a product of it's treatment- they have personalities that are unique, just like us, and often their breeds are a clue to what their personalities might be (though that's certainly not a guarantee).   All I'm looking for is increasing the chances of getting a dog that fits with my lifestyle, while recognizing that nothing is certain and even within a given breed there is a ton of variation.  I completely agree with everything that article you shared says, and honestly feel like it's completely supporting the points I'm making, so I really do think we're on the same side here.     


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  • FiancBFiancB member
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    edited May 2015
    It's not impossible, but it's a little contradictory. 

    If you want to make sure your cat will be safe, it's best to get a small dog. But you don't want a small dog. It's also much harder to gauge prey drive and general temperament in a puppy, but you want one anyway. This is most likely problematic. It sounds like this is your first dog? 

    I think your best bet is to contact a foster group and talk to them about what you're looking for. My experience with fosters has been PIA, but they are better equipped than most to match you up well, and take the dog back if it isn't a good fit. 

    I have small pets and both my Border Collie and Sheltie have been great with them, especially the Sheltie. They tend to not have an aggressive bone in their body. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms as herding breeds aren't for everyone either. 

    As far as the rest of the discussion goes, this stuff seems to happen out of the blue because contrary to popular belief, owning a dog does not make a person a dog expert. People are really clueless to signals that a dog gives that they are uncomfortable that are any more subtle than growling and snarling. 

    For example, this was taken and it's oh-em-gee so kyooot but actually the dog is looking and leaning away with the whites of its eyes showing and it is not happy. If it were pushed harder or had a lower threshold, kid would get bit. 

    image

    And uh I've seen a shitton of labs at shelters. Tons. Like the majority of big dogs are "pits" or labs or "pit/lab mixes". Also keep in mind that shelter workers tend to not be great at breed identification and tend to throw "mix" onto the end of everything- our dog was listed as a border collie mix but now that he's grown up, there is no question that he is all BC. Not that it really matters. 
    image
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  • ashley8918ashley8918 member
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    themosthappy91 said:

    show previous quotes
    Thanks, It turns out, I know how to do the google. 

     I am not interested in what some rando named Michelle, with no known credentials has to say. Now, a reputable source like the ASPCA? Absolutely.


    ETA and I am not looking for a dog. I have a perfectly wonderful beagle and a Dachshund-Pit Bull mix that were trained properly and are not at all agressive, because that is how it works.

    __________________________________

    Ashley I feel like you are trying to argue with me but we are actually on the exact same page.  The first line of that article: "Dog breeds are characterized by certain physical and behavioral traits".  That is literally ALL I'm saying- some dog breeds have certain behavioral traits that makes them a better fit for certain living situations than others.  I don't believe that all a dog is is a product of it's treatment- they have personalities that are unique, just like us, and often their breeds are a clue to what their personalities might be (though that's certainly not a guarantee).   All I'm looking for is increasing the chances of getting a dog that fits with my lifestyle, while recognizing that nothing is certain and even within a given breed there is a ton of variation.  I completely agree with everything that article you shared says, and honestly feel like it's completely supporting the points I'm making, so I really do think we're on the same side here.     


    Then you didn't really read it. The takeaway is that dogs can absolutely be trained in a way that makes them aggressive. All dogs, of all breeds. No specific breed is inherently more aggressive than another.
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  • themosthappy91themosthappy91 member
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    FiancB said:

    It's not impossible, but it's a little contradictory. 


    If you want to make sure your cat will be safe, it's best to get a small dog. But you don't want a small dog. It's also much harder to gauge prey drive and general temperament in a puppy, but you want one anyway. This is most likely problematic. It sounds like this is your first dog? 

    I think your best bet is to contact a foster group and talk to them about what you're looking for. My experience with fosters has been PIA, but they are better equipped than most to match you up well, and take the dog back if it isn't a good fit. 

    I have small pets and both my Border Collie and Sheltie have been great with them, especially the Sheltie. They tend to not have an aggressive bone in their body. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms as herding breeds aren't for everyone either. 

    As far as the rest of the discussion goes, this stuff seems to happen out of the blue because contrary to popular belief, owning a dog does not make a person a dog expert. People are really clueless to signals that a dog gives that they are uncomfortable that are any more subtle than growling and snarling. 

    For example, this was taken and it's oh-em-gee so kyooot but actually the dog is looking and leaning away with the whites of its eyes showing and it is not happy. If it were pushed harder or had a lower threshold, kid would get bit. 

    image
    That's a great idea actually!  I get intimidated because some foster groups are super intense about their dogs so it can be kind of nerve-wrecking to have them picking apart your life, but you're right that ultimately it's for the good of the dog and the owner, which is what is important.

    Also shelties always top all the "best dogs to get with other pets" list, I really might need to consider them because they really are super cute.  I grew up with herding dogs so I'm used to those kind of energy demands at least :P.  
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  • themosthappy91themosthappy91 member
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    lyndausvi said:

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    People say over and over it's the training and I agree.  

    I just  think more often then not when a person says they do not want an aggressive breed they are really saying "I'm not a strong enough master to own that type of dog.  There are too many stories of "x" breed that I'm afraid to be that owner."

    Of course  all breeds have the ability to be an aggressive dog with the right "training".  I just feel there are  some dogs that have more aggressive and protective traits that are need a strong master to keep those in check.


    Exactly this! Thank you for saying it better than I apparently could.  I've tried to be clear from the get-go- all dog breeds can be loving and friendly, all dog breeds can be aggressive.  I am definitely not trying to spread misinformation on that count.  I am just getting my first dog as an adult and I don't want to set myself for a challenge that would potentially endanger my sweet kitty if I'm not up to it.      
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    What differentiates an average host and a great host is anticipating unexpressed needs and wants of their guests.  Just because the want/need is not expressed, doesn't mean it wouldn't be appreciated. 
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  • themosthappy91themosthappy91 member
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    edited May 2015
    themosthappy91 said:

    ashley8918 said:

    @ashley8918 I find this website ( http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/dogbreeds/) is really useful about being honest about the pros and cons of owning certain types of dogs, including when a given breed of dog will have an inclination to chase and hunt things that run from them.  But if you don't believe this one literally countless others will affirm that some breeds of dogs do in fact have a higher prey drive as a baseline- just google any variation of "dogs to get/not to get with small pets", "pros and cons of different types of dogs" etc.  Or talk to some established breeders who work exclusively with specific dog breeds- especially "Spitz family" dog breeds, if you're looking for dogs that are particularly known to have higher prey drives and an inclination to chase small animals.  
    Thanks, It turns out, I know how to do the google. 

     I am not interested in what some rando named Michelle, with no known credentials has to say. Now, a reputable source like the ASPCA? Absolutely.


    ETA and I am not looking for a dog. I have a perfectly wonderful beagle and a Dachshund-Pit Bull mix that were trained properly and are not at all agressive, because that is how it works.

    __________________________________

    Ashley I feel like you are trying to argue with me but we are actually on the exact same page.  The first line of that article: "Dog breeds are characterized by certain physical and behavioral traits".  That is literally ALL I'm saying- some dog breeds have certain behavioral traits that makes them a better fit for certain living situations than others.  I don't believe that all a dog is is a product of it's treatment- they have personalities that are unique, just like us, and often their breeds are a clue to what their personalities might be (though that's certainly not a guarantee).   All I'm looking for is increasing the chances of getting a dog that fits with my lifestyle, while recognizing that nothing is certain and even within a given breed there is a ton of variation.  I completely agree with everything that article you shared says, and honestly feel like it's completely supporting the points I'm making, so I really do think we're on the same side here.     
    Then you didn't really read it. The takeaway is that dogs can absolutely be trained in a way that makes them aggressive. All dogs, of all breeds. No specific breed is inherently more aggressive than another

    I'm sorry but I think you're the one who may need to reread.  Dogs of all breeds can become aggressive does not equal all dog breeds have equal potential to become aggressive.  I said in my first post that every breed has some individuals who are friendly and some who aren't.  As the article says, they are all individuals.  It also says breeds share common behavioral traits, which is the opposite of saying all breeds are inherently the same behaviorally.  
    Let's break it down to it's simplest level.  Some breeds of dogs were bred from day one to be snuggly lap dogs.  Some were bred from day one to fight and kill things.  Of course the dog breed that was never remotely selected for aggressive traits is going to be a safer bet than the dog breed that has that throughout their history.  Now when we're talking about the individuals, there's no guarantee.  But those breeds have different histories and therefore are likely to share more behavioral traits.  
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  • ashley8918ashley8918 member
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    themosthappy91 said:

    show previous quotes
    Then you didn't really read it. The takeaway is that dogs can absolutely be trained in a way that makes them aggressive. All dogs, of all breeds. No specific breed is inherently more aggressive than another

    I'm sorry but I think you're the one who may need to reread.  Dogs of all breeds can become aggressive does not equal all dog breeds have equal potential to become aggressive.  I said in my first post that every breed has some individuals who are friendly and some who aren't.  As the article says, they are all individuals.  It also says breeds share common behavioral traits, which is the opposite of saying all breeds are inherently the same behaviorally.  
    Let's break it down to it's simplest level.  Some breeds of dogs were bred from day one to be snuggly lap dogs.  Some were bred from day one to fight and kill things.  Of course the dog breed that was never remotely selected for aggressive traits is going to be a safer bet than the dog breed that has that throughout their history.  Now when we're talking about the individuals, there's no guarantee.  But those breeds have different histories and therefore are likely to share more behavioral traits.  




    ----------------------------------------------------

    You are being patronizing as fuck, and I am not into it.
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  • lurkergirllurkergirl member
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    ashley8918 said:

    Based on anecdotal evidence, Chihuahuas are by far the most aggressive dog breed. My extended family has suffered 3 separate Chihuahua bites.

    My fil's bichon growls at my Presa canario.

    Also, (disturbing content alert) I have seen a black lab pick up a cat by the neck and shake it like a chew toy.




    image
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