Wedding Woes

Oh this is bad, horrible, terrible, awful, no-good advice.

DEAR ABBY: I am a junior in high school. Last year, a guy I have known for two years began showing a sexual interest in me. I rejected his advances. Last week, he began expressing his interest again, letting me know he wanted to have sex. He invited me to study -- only study -- but said we "might" make out.

I was a virgin and had never even kissed anyone before. I had just gotten out of a relationship that didn't end very well, so I liked the attention. I decided I was fine with just kissing, but as soon as I got in his truck, he started to feel me up. He took me to a semi-isolated area and we ended up having sex. It wasn't fun or pleasurable. I told him he was hurting me, but he didn't stop until the third time I said it. He was very upset with me. He only cared about me pleasuring him.

I told two of my close friends about what happened. One said he had essentially raped me. The other said it doesn't count as rape because even though I said it hurt, I didn't say it forcefully enough. Abby, what do you think? -- UNCERTAIN IN ILLINOIS

DEAR UNCERTAIN: It appears you and that boy had a severe breakdown in communication, which led to your being sexually assaulted. He had made no secret that he wanted sex with you, and may have interpreted your willingness to kiss him after he took you somewhere other than what was agreed upon as a signal that you were willing, even though you didn't say so.

Date rape happens when a fellow ends up coercing or forcing a girl to have sex without her consent. Unless a girl explicitly expresses her willingness to proceed, it is the responsibility of the boy NOT to proceed.

To me what happened illustrates how important it is for parents to talk to their sons and daughters about responsible behavior because failure to do that can have lifelong consequences for both. If you haven't already done so, you should tell your parents what happened. However, if you don't feel safe doing that, tell a counselor at school.

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Re: Oh this is bad, horrible, terrible, awful, no-good advice.

  • Wait - what advice would you give? Go straight to the police? I think a counselor will walk her through her options first, right? 
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  • What the ever-loving fuck, Abby.  


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  • bleve0821bleve0821 member
    1000 Comments 500 Love Its Third Anniversary First Answer
    edited April 2016
    @baconsmom, when I read this the first time, I shared your thought.  I thought the advice to see a counselor was worthwhile, but something about the tone of the response gave me pause ("that boy"...).  I'm not defending her statements by any stretch of the imagination, because this was truly awful and heartbreaking to read, but I do get the sense that Abby was trying to be as PC and neutral as she could in her response ("Unless a girl explicitly expresses her willingness to proceed, it is the responsibility of the boy NOT to proceed..."  No outright blame-gaming here, but it is still implied).  Unfortunately, that resulted in a lot of victim blaming, etc.

    On the surface, the response seems innocent enough.  But that surface is very, very shallow.  And in actuality, the response is frightening in its implications.

    ETF words.


    "And when they use our atoms to make new lives, they won’t just be able to take one, they’ll have to take two, one of you and one of me..."
    --Philip Pullman

  • VarunaTT said:

    To me what happened illustrates how important it is for parents to talk to their sons and daughters about responsible behavior because failure to do that can have lifelong consequences for both (I can't even with this statement, responsible behavior?  Can she not be done with the victim blaming yet?). If you haven't already done so, you should tell your parents what happened. However, if you don't feel safe doing that, tell a counselor at school. <--- only worthwhile statement she made,

    This doesn't come across as victim blaming for me - "responsible behavior" covers a whole gamut of situations, which would also include not pressuring someone to have sex/not raping or assaulting someone/not having sex without consent. 

    People don't deserve to be raped/assaulted because they behave irresponsibly, but making responsible decisions (not getting in the truck, not getting blackout dunk, not being alone in a "bad" area, etc.) is less likely to end in these consequences.
  • Yeah, I didn't see a lot of that in Abby's response. Maybe what I usually see is so blatant that I'm happy for any scrap of vaguely -not-victim-blamey shit, I don't know. 

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  • VarunaTT said:

    Unless a girl explicitly expresses her willingness to proceed, it is the responsibility of the boy NOT to proceed (victim blaming b/c she has put the onus on the victim here that she should've said something louder b/c THREE FUCKING TIMES APPARENTLY WASN'T EXPLICIT ENOUGH).

    Varuna, I agree with everything you're saying and agree she does some victim blaming here, but I think maybe you misread this part.  She's not saying it's on the victim to say no, she's saying it's on the boy NOT to touch her unless the girl MAKES CLEAR that she wants to be touched.  Which I think sounds pretty sound.  The proper thing to do would be to not engage in any action unless the person has CLEARLY invited you to do so.

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  • *Barbie* said:
    VarunaTT said:

    To me what happened illustrates how important it is for parents to talk to their sons and daughters about responsible behavior because failure to do that can have lifelong consequences for both (I can't even with this statement, responsible behavior?  Can she not be done with the victim blaming yet?). If you haven't already done so, you should tell your parents what happened. However, if you don't feel safe doing that, tell a counselor at school. <--- only worthwhile statement she made,

    This doesn't come across as victim blaming for me - "responsible behavior" covers a whole gamut of situations, which would also include not pressuring someone to have sex/not raping or assaulting someone/not having sex without consent. 

    People don't deserve to be raped/assaulted because they behave irresponsibly, but making responsible decisions (not getting in the truck, not getting blackout dunk, not being alone in a "bad" area, etc.) is less likely to end in these consequences.
    I don't see how getting in the truck was "irresponsible."  She'd known him a while and they were going to study and maybe make out.  Should women never let men drive for a date?
  • *Barbie* said:
    VarunaTT said:

    To me what happened illustrates how important it is for parents to talk to their sons and daughters about responsible behavior because failure to do that can have lifelong consequences for both (I can't even with this statement, responsible behavior?  Can she not be done with the victim blaming yet?). If you haven't already done so, you should tell your parents what happened. However, if you don't feel safe doing that, tell a counselor at school. <--- only worthwhile statement she made,

    This doesn't come across as victim blaming for me - "responsible behavior" covers a whole gamut of situations, which would also include not pressuring someone to have sex/not raping or assaulting someone/not having sex without consent. 

    People don't deserve to be raped/assaulted because they behave irresponsibly, but making responsible decisions (not getting in the truck, not getting blackout dunk, not being alone in a "bad" area, etc.) is less likely to end in these consequences.
    I don't see how getting in the truck was "irresponsible."  She'd known him a while and they were going to study and maybe make out.  Should women never let men drive for a date?
    Yeah and we're (women) more likely to get raped by someone we know than by some random assailant in a "bad" area.


  • 6fsn6fsn member
    Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its Name Dropper
    Getting in a truck was not irresponsible.  I think  it's also hard for a 16 year old to feel that they have a voice and a right to be heard, especially for a girl.
  • lnixon8 said:
    *Barbie* said:
    VarunaTT said:

    To me what happened illustrates how important it is for parents to talk to their sons and daughters about responsible behavior because failure to do that can have lifelong consequences for both (I can't even with this statement, responsible behavior?  Can she not be done with the victim blaming yet?). If you haven't already done so, you should tell your parents what happened. However, if you don't feel safe doing that, tell a counselor at school. <--- only worthwhile statement she made,

    This doesn't come across as victim blaming for me - "responsible behavior" covers a whole gamut of situations, which would also include not pressuring someone to have sex/not raping or assaulting someone/not having sex without consent. 

    People don't deserve to be raped/assaulted because they behave irresponsibly, but making responsible decisions (not getting in the truck, not getting blackout dunk, not being alone in a "bad" area, etc.) is less likely to end in these consequences.
    I don't see how getting in the truck was "irresponsible."  She'd known him a while and they were going to study and maybe make out.  Should women never let men drive for a date?
    Yeah and we're (women) more likely to get raped by someone we know than by some random assailant in a "bad" area.
    Truth. Personal experience talking here.

  • lnixon8 said:
    *Barbie* said:
    VarunaTT said:

    To me what happened illustrates how important it is for parents to talk to their sons and daughters about responsible behavior because failure to do that can have lifelong consequences for both (I can't even with this statement, responsible behavior?  Can she not be done with the victim blaming yet?). If you haven't already done so, you should tell your parents what happened. However, if you don't feel safe doing that, tell a counselor at school. <--- only worthwhile statement she made,

    This doesn't come across as victim blaming for me - "responsible behavior" covers a whole gamut of situations, which would also include not pressuring someone to have sex/not raping or assaulting someone/not having sex without consent. 

    People don't deserve to be raped/assaulted because they behave irresponsibly, but making responsible decisions (not getting in the truck, not getting blackout dunk, not being alone in a "bad" area, etc.) is less likely to end in these consequences.
    I don't see how getting in the truck was "irresponsible."  She'd known him a while and they were going to study and maybe make out.  Should women never let men drive for a date?
    Yeah and we're (women) more likely to get raped by someone we know than by some random assailant in a "bad" area.
    Truth. Personal experience talking here.
    Same. Sorry to hear that though.


  • lnixon8 said:
    lnixon8 said:
    *Barbie* said:
    VarunaTT said:

    To me what happened illustrates how important it is for parents to talk to their sons and daughters about responsible behavior because failure to do that can have lifelong consequences for both (I can't even with this statement, responsible behavior?  Can she not be done with the victim blaming yet?). If you haven't already done so, you should tell your parents what happened. However, if you don't feel safe doing that, tell a counselor at school. <--- only worthwhile statement she made,

    This doesn't come across as victim blaming for me - "responsible behavior" covers a whole gamut of situations, which would also include not pressuring someone to have sex/not raping or assaulting someone/not having sex without consent. 

    People don't deserve to be raped/assaulted because they behave irresponsibly, but making responsible decisions (not getting in the truck, not getting blackout dunk, not being alone in a "bad" area, etc.) is less likely to end in these consequences.
    I don't see how getting in the truck was "irresponsible."  She'd known him a while and they were going to study and maybe make out.  Should women never let men drive for a date?
    Yeah and we're (women) more likely to get raped by someone we know than by some random assailant in a "bad" area.
    Truth. Personal experience talking here.
    Same. Sorry to hear that though.
    Sorry to you too @lnixon8 :(

  • mrsconn23mrsconn23 member
    Knottie Warrior 10000 Comments 500 Love Its First Answer
    edited April 2016
    lnixon8 said:
    lnixon8 said:
    *Barbie* said:
    VarunaTT said:

    To me what happened illustrates how important it is for parents to talk to their sons and daughters about responsible behavior because failure to do that can have lifelong consequences for both (I can't even with this statement, responsible behavior?  Can she not be done with the victim blaming yet?). If you haven't already done so, you should tell your parents what happened. However, if you don't feel safe doing that, tell a counselor at school. <--- only worthwhile statement she made,

    This doesn't come across as victim blaming for me - "responsible behavior" covers a whole gamut of situations, which would also include not pressuring someone to have sex/not raping or assaulting someone/not having sex without consent. 

    People don't deserve to be raped/assaulted because they behave irresponsibly, but making responsible decisions (not getting in the truck, not getting blackout dunk, not being alone in a "bad" area, etc.) is less likely to end in these consequences.
    I don't see how getting in the truck was "irresponsible."  She'd known him a while and they were going to study and maybe make out.  Should women never let men drive for a date?
    Yeah and we're (women) more likely to get raped by someone we know than by some random assailant in a "bad" area.
    Truth. Personal experience talking here.
    Same. Sorry to hear that though.
    Sorry to you too @lnixon8 :(
    Ugh, so sorry lades.  That sucks.

    I distinctly remember a few situations from my teens and early 20's that could have soured quickly.  That feeling of fear was palpable and I'm glad I was able to GTFO w/o experiencing anything traumatic.  

    And these were situations with people I thought I *knew* and I had spent some time with them without incident. 

  • I don't see how getting in the truck was "irresponsible."  She'd known him a while and they were going to study and maybe make out.  Should women never let men drive for a date?
    the OP said "I decided I was fine with just kissing, but as soon as I got in his truck, he started to feel me up. " - so within seconds of getting in the truck, he had already crossed her boundary of "just kissing" 

    She also said that the guy had been pressuring her for some time, despite her turning him down "Last year, a guy I have known for two years began showing a sexual interest in me. I rejected his advances. Last week, he began expressing his interest again, letting me know he wanted to have sex."

    The guy sounds like he was clear about his intentions though both actions and words - by getting in the truck and staying there when he immediately crossed a boundary, I would say that she made an irresponsible choice.

    If she was interested in seeing the guy, she could have insisted on going somewhere public for a date, driving herself, or going with a group.  Any of those decisions would have been more responsible and would likely have kept her safer. It sounds like she was unsure of her comfort level with the guy, and they were clearly on different pages regarding sex - she could have spent more time getting to know him in a public setting before agreeing to go off alone with him. 

    (Also, yes, I understand that date rape is more prevalent than getting raped because you walk through a bad area alone at night - but there are other dangers to this "irresponsible choice" like getting mugged/robbed.)

  • Truth. Personal experience talking here.
    Sorry you had to experience that. 
  • edited April 2016

    Barbie, I think, for a lot of people, that line between irresponsibility and keeping yourself safe is kind of grey. Like, women shouldn't have to feel the need to protect themselves. This girl should have been safe to get into this truck and he shouldn't have pushed her. Which is all well and good, in theory. Yes, people need to teach their children that no means no and maybe means no and anything other than "YES YES YESSSS" mean no, but unfortunately that doesn't always happen. But in reality, this shit happens and I'm going to do whatever I can to keep myself safe. Does it suck that I don't go here or there alone or that I avoid X place at night? Sure. But I'm not willing to rely on the "should"s.

    Edited because I didn't like my use of "blurred". I still can't think of the word but 'grey' will have to do.

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  • Barbie, I think, for a lot of people, that line between irresponsibility and keeping yourself safe is kind of blurred. Like, women shouldn't have to feel the need to protect themselves. This girl should have been safe to get into this truck and he shouldn't have pushed her. Which is all well and good, in theory. Yes, people need to teach their children that no means no and maybe means no and anything other than "YES YES YESSSS" mean no, but unfortunately that doesn't always happen. But in reality, this shit happens and I'm going to do whatever I can to keep myself safe. Does it suck that I don't go here or there alone or that I avoid X place at night? Sure. But I'm not willing to rely on the "should"s.

    That's my point. 

    She (or anyone) absolutely should be able to go out on a date and not be pressured/assaulted/raped/etc.  but unfortunately the world isn't all puppies and rainbows and that is a very real danger. 

    I have a daughter - I hope she will never find herself in this situation, and I hope that if she does, she will be able to fight back. I hope that she will take precautions to minimize her risks of something like this happening to her. I know that if something does happen, I'll also be there to support her, and make sure she gets the help that she needs. 
  • Oh I agree with you 100%. I was just trying to see both sides and there have been a lot of discussions here about how people should be/feel safe everywhere. I've seen extreme opinions where people think that people like you and I, who think maybe people should avoid potentially unsafe locations and situations are "part of the problem".

    Regardless though, I'm doing what I can to keep myself safe. And that means not relying on the goodness of other people.

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  • So the way I read it she knew he was interested, he knew she wasn't, they agreed to study and maybe make out, and yet she was irresponsible for getting in the car to go study? Why don't we see him as irresponsible for assaulting her?
  • I can't quote but I think that was a given, Charlotte. I don't believe anyone here is saying he didn't do anything wrong and he absolutely did do something wrong. The letter is written by the girl and we were discussing the response (to the girl).

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  • @ShesSoCold I guess I'm just surprised that there is any discussion of whether or not she is irresponsible. They had an understanding, he disrespected that, she told him to stop and he didn't, and yet there is criticism of her being irresponsible, like I really just don't get this argument. How is she supposed to know that after they agreed to make out he is going to assault her? And that after she said stop he wouldn't listen? Now we're expecting young women to anticipating being assaulted?

    It wasn't a breakdown in communication that resulted in sexual assault, it was him committing sexual assault. 

    I think my outrage didn't adequately come through on my last post. 
    Thank you, I was having trouble finding the words.
  • Abby's quote:
    "To me what happened illustrates how important it is for parents to talk to their sons and daughters about responsible behavior because failure to do that can have lifelong consequences for both. "

    I didn't read that as though the LW  herself needed to think about what was responsible. Abby always gives General You statements, and I read this part as imploring parents of both sexes to talk to BOTH of them about responsible behavior, in general.  As a PP said, girls can assault boys just as boys can assault girls.  Lifelong consequences include rape charges for either sex. Abby didn't say, "parents of boys need to teach them that no means no," she wrote that all parents should always discuss overarching responsible behavior. 


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  • lnixon8 said:
    lnixon8 said:
    *Barbie* said:
    VarunaTT said:

    To me what happened illustrates how important it is for parents to talk to their sons and daughters about responsible behavior because failure to do that can have lifelong consequences for both (I can't even with this statement, responsible behavior?  Can she not be done with the victim blaming yet?). If you haven't already done so, you should tell your parents what happened. However, if you don't feel safe doing that, tell a counselor at school. <--- only worthwhile statement she made,

    This doesn't come across as victim blaming for me - "responsible behavior" covers a whole gamut of situations, which would also include not pressuring someone to have sex/not raping or assaulting someone/not having sex without consent. 

    People don't deserve to be raped/assaulted because they behave irresponsibly, but making responsible decisions (not getting in the truck, not getting blackout dunk, not being alone in a "bad" area, etc.) is less likely to end in these consequences.
    I don't see how getting in the truck was "irresponsible."  She'd known him a while and they were going to study and maybe make out.  Should women never let men drive for a date?
    Yeah and we're (women) more likely to get raped by someone we know than by some random assailant in a "bad" area.
    Truth. Personal experience talking here.
    Same. Sorry to hear that though.
    Sorry to you too @lnixon8 :(
    Yep!  Stats don't lie!  Nor life experience...  No matter how well one thinks they're "prepared" if a situation arises, or has had those discussions, in the moment, it's about survival and mental toughness, nothing more, nothing less...  <gosh dang I didn't need that scab ripped off today>..
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