Can we talk about rape for a moment?

monkeysip · June 2016

Kind of a heavy topic for the chit chat board, but I'd like to talk to some reasonable women (and occasional men here) from different backgrounds to understand something better.

All this stuff going on with the Stanford rape case is so disturbing. I'm so upset for this girl (and all the other victims out there), and I hate to see the victim blaming that always happens.

But there's one argument I'm having a hard time getting my head wrapped around and being able to respond to. A common argument I've seen is that if the man (or perpetrator, I know a woman can rape too) is intoxicated, then he didn't consent to his actions either. So it's not really rape.

Now, I do understand that sometimes two people can drink too much and end up doing sexual things they wouldn't normally have done. So in a way, sometimes sex isn't truly consensual for either, but it wasn't one person doing it to another necessarily.

But that seems completely different from the Brock Turner case. I don't think that you can just get drunk and take someone behind a dumpster and do sexual things to them while they're unconscious. That just seems like flat out rape, even if he was drunk. But where is the line? Is there a line? How is that handled on both a legal and moral level?

Like, if a girl wakes up at a party and says she's been raped, but the guy says he was drunk too and doesn't even remember, are his actions mitigated at all? Or in the most extreme for form of the question, can he claim rape too?

These are just things I've heard people argue, and while I DO think people like Brock Turner is a rapist, it seems like it can get tricky. Is there any evidence that drinking can make someone who's normally not a rapist do things like force sex on someone else?

Pardon this long post, I'd just like to be better prepared to discuss these things, especially when people argue that it's not rape if both were intoxicated.

thisismynickname2 · June 2016

Well... Two things.

One.
My opinion, completely lacking any scientific base, is that the raping behavior must be deeply ingrained for it to come out in this kind of situation. Sure, I've been really drunk. I've even kissed boys while drunk at bars without remembering it (according to one friend, anyway). Once I woke up after getting drunk with a date and didn't remember having sex with him and he said we did. However, I didn't care, because I liked the guy, and figured my drunk self just did what my sober self wanted to do anyway.

But that's dangerous behavior, for both me and him. What if I had woken up and been aghast at what had transpired? Did that make him a rapist automatically because I don't remember consenting? Exact same act, different outcomes.

I think a big difference is the violence behind it. That girl woke up behind a dumpster with debris in her vagina. You don't consent to that. That guy, drunk as he could have been... for him to have sex with someone unconscious behind a dumpster is pretty different, in my eyes, from the guy who had sex with me in my bed after a date with me.

The second thing is this video was posted awhile ago that I think is just great:
https://www.facebook.com/thisisinsider/videos/1486796681627725/?pnref=story ("The UK explained sexual consent in the most British way possible.")

bohobrideCA · June 2016

Well, in this case it wasn't two drunk people having sex. It was a drunk person raping an unconscious person. A drunk person can also choose to drive a car and they don't get the excuse of "but I was drunk", they get a DUI. He was aware enough to know he was doing something wrong because he ran away when he was caught.

I understand what you're asking though. Two drunk people having sex cannot both be victims of rape as well as rapists? The difference between two drunk people having sex and someone who has been drinking raping someone else who has been drinking needs to be clearly defined. I will tell you there have been (rare) times I have refused my FI's advances when I know he has had too much to drink, while I myself have been drinking enough to not be able to drive a car. That was me using common sense even though I know my FI would not have felt violated, it didn't feel right at the time. 99.9% of the time we have been drinking and have sex we just our judgement without even knowing it, he would never do anything to me while I was asleep sober or drunk because that would be rape.

monkeysip · June 2016

bohobrideCA said:

Well, in this case it wasn't two drunk people having sex. It was a drunk person raping an unconscious person. A drunk person can also choose to drive a car and they don't get the excuse of "but I was drunk", they get a DUI. He was aware enough to know he was doing something wrong because he ran aways when he was caught.

I understand what you're asking though. Two drunk people having sex cannot both be victims of rape as well as rapists? The difference between two drunk people having sex and someone who has been drinking raping someone else who has been drinking needs to be clearly defined. I will tell you there have been (rare) times I have refused my FI's advances when I know he has had too much to drink, while I myself have been drinking enough to not be able to drive a car.

To your first paragraph--that's what I was thinking too. I think the Brock Turner case is much more clear (and he WAS convicted by the jury!).

But like you said in your second paragraph, there seems to be other cases that are trickier to determine.

bohobrideCA · June 2016

monkeysip said:

bohobrideCA said:

Well, in this case it wasn't two drunk people having sex. It was a drunk person raping an unconscious person. A drunk person can also choose to drive a car and they don't get the excuse of "but I was drunk", they get a DUI. He was aware enough to know he was doing something wrong because he ran aways when he was caught.

I understand what you're asking though. Two drunk people having sex cannot both be victims of rape as well as rapists? The difference between two drunk people having sex and someone who has been drinking raping someone else who has been drinking needs to be clearly defined. I will tell you there have been (rare) times I have refused my FI's advances when I know he has had too much to drink, while I myself have been drinking enough to not be able to drive a car.

To your first paragraph--that's what I was thinking too. I think the Brock Turner case is much more clear (and he WAS convicted by the jury!).

But like you said in your second paragraph, there seems to be other cases that are trickier to determine.

I don't like the "if a woman has been drinking she cannot consent" or "if a man has sex with a woman that has been drinking he has committed rape". Because clearly that isn't true and as you said, men are capable of being raped by men and women and women are capable of raping men and women. But I don't know how to better defend someone who says they have been raped besides, of course, believing them.

artbyallie · June 2016

I firmly believe that being intoxicated does not 'make' anyone do something they would otherwise never do. Being incapable of saying no/stopping someone, yes, which is why it's rape to do sexual things to a drunk person. But the one initiating is in control enough of their actions to be responsible for them, IMO. I can see that alcohol might lower one's inhibitions, but it does not put ideas in one's head that weren't there to begin with.

monkeysip · June 2016

artbyallie said:

I firmly believe that being intoxicated does not 'make' anyone do something they would otherwise never do. Being incapable of saying no/stopping someone, yes, which is why it's rape to do sexual things to a drunk person. But the one initiating is in control enough of their actions to be responsible for them, IMO. I can see that alcohol might lower one's inhibitions, but it does not put ideas in one's head that weren't there to begin with.

I guess the problem is when neither remember what happened because they were so drunk, but one of them feels violated and says it was rape.

madamerwin · June 2016

artbyallie said:

I firmly believe that being intoxicated does not 'make' anyone do something they would otherwise never do. Being incapable of saying no/stopping someone, yes, which is why it's rape to do sexual things to a drunk person. But the one initiating is in control enough of their actions to be responsible for them, IMO. I can see that alcohol might lower one's inhibitions, but it does not put ideas in one's head that weren't there to begin with.

This. I agree that alcohol will not turn someone into a rapist (or murderer, or whatever type of criminal) if the criminal does not already have control issues, or anger issues, or a tendency toward violence.

Brock Turner knew what he was doing was wrong; the fact that he dragged her behind a dumpster and then ran away when caught demonstrates that he had the presence of mind to know right from wrong. Alcohol lowered his inhibitions, but it cannot be blamed for his actions.

charlotte989875 · June 2016

On the question of "if two people are drunk and they don't remember consenting"; there are many US states where being incapacitated (by alcohol, drugs, permanently incapacitated, etc) means you cannot, legally, give consent. (Side note, this is just about sex, but rather giving consent to anything, even legal documents). Does that mean people can't ever have sex when they're drunk? No, of course not. What it means for practical purposes is that people should be on the same page about what happens (or doesn't happen) before they get drunk. Again, I know this doesn't always happen. And if both people are consenting adults, even when they are drunk, there is no rape.

However if both people are drunk and Person A says no, just because Person B is drunk does not mean they are not responsible. Yes, person B might not be able to legally consent either, but that is not the same thing as forcibly touching, raping, harassing someone either. The law still applies even when you are drunk so in this case Person B is still legally responsible not to commit a crime.

scrunchythief · June 2016

So I did some reading on this a while ago. From what I found is that most (but obviously not all) men when they are so drunk that they can't consent to their actions (at least brown out drunk) are at the same time not physically capable of maintaining an erection.

If there were a case where a man and a woman were both so drunk that neither could consent, but sex was still possible, I'd say it'd be treated like statutory rape when both parties are under the age of consent. Neither gets charged because they both had the same lack of ability to consent.

But, normally there's a difference in the amount of alcohol consumed. Also, there's a culture around partying that is coercive towards women drinking. Some rapists also say they purposefully try to get women to drink more to lower their inhibitions/make it easier to force them.

It would help to have better guidelines on what level of drunkenness means a person is no longer able to consent to sex. And not just a BAC, since people react differently to different levels.

MCmeow · June 2016

Drunk drivers who kill serve time. Rape impacts a person's life and can destroy a person's life. Both types of criminals need to be held accountable. The Brock Turner case is beyond disgusting, I read her letter and it was heartbreaking and I found out he's being released in SEPTEMBER.

CMGragain · June 2016

I know a young lady who was raped by a drunken young man. The young man has no memory of the incident. He served jail time. He has apologized. He will be a registered sex offender for the rest of his life. I knew both people when they were in high school. Very sad for everyone. There are no winners in a rape case.

STARMOON44 · June 2016

CMGragain said:

I know a young lady who was raped by a drunken young man. The young man has no memory of the incident. He served jail time. He has apologized. He will be a registered sex offender for the rest of his life. I knew both people when they were in high school. Very sad for everyone. There are no winners in a rape case.

No, but there are losers. Who are primarily the women who were raped. I find your post disturbingly focused on the consequences to him, and it isn't equally sad for everyone.

STARMOON44 · June 2016

monkeysip said:

Kind of a heavy topic for the chit chat board, but I'd like to talk to some reasonable women (and occasional men here) from different backgrounds to understand something better.

All this stuff going on with the Stanford rape case is so disturbing. I'm so upset for this girl (and all the other victims out there), and I hate to see the victim blaming that always happens.

But there's one argument I'm having a hard time getting my head wrapped around and being able to respond to. A common argument I've seen is that if the man (or perpetrator, I know a woman can rape too) is intoxicated, then he didn't consent to his actions either. So it's not really rape.

Now, I do understand that sometimes two people can drink too much and end up doing sexual things they wouldn't normally have done. So in a way, sometimes sex isn't truly consensual for either, but it wasn't one person doing it to another necessarily.

But that seems completely different from the Brock Turner case. I don't think that you can just get drunk and take someone behind a dumpster and do sexual things to them while they're unconscious. That just seems like flat out rape, even if he was drunk. But where is the line? Is there a line? How is that handled on both a legal and moral level?

Like, if a girl wakes up at a party and says she's been raped, but the guy says he was drunk too and doesn't even remember, are his actions mitigated at all? Or in the most extreme for form of the question, can he claim rape too?

These are just things I've heard people argue, and while I DO think people like Brock Turner is a rapist, it seems like it can get tricky. Is there any evidence that drinking can make someone who's normally not a rapist do things like force sex on someone else?

Pardon this long post, I'd just like to be better prepared to discuss these things, especially when people argue that it's not rape if both were intoxicated.

To me your post reads as "I hate to see victim blaming, but actually aren't there all these other situations where it might not be like rape rape? Why don't we discuss them now in direct response to a completely different situation involving high profile victim blaming."

honestly i I find it really problematic.

STARMOON44 · June 2016

But if we must discuss this now, your questions are the whole reason we have courts. To weigh evidence in complicated situations. To consider the credibility of witnesses. It's a tough burden to convict someone of rape, which is why most rapes aren't reported and even reported rapes aren't prosecuted and even prosecuted rapes don't always lead to convictions. It's a system set up by men, run to this day largely by men, for their benefit. I waste zero time worrying about the plight of the poor drunken frat bro because he is already protected. Unless you are a black man raping a white woman, you're protected enough.

CMGragain · June 2016

STARMOON44 said:

CMGragain said:

I know a young lady who was raped by a drunken young man. The young man has no memory of the incident. He served jail time. He has apologized. He will be a registered sex offender for the rest of his life. I knew both people when they were in high school. Very sad for everyone. There are no winners in a rape case.

No, but there are losers. Who are primarily the women who were raped. I find your post disturbingly focused on the consequences to him, and it isn't equally sad for everyone.

I sent you a PM to tell you why I am so offended by your post.

It is very sad for everyone. The young man is not welcome in my home. The young lady is still a friend. She is very happy in her life, now, and has closure.

monkeysip · June 2016

STARMOON44 said:

To me your post reads as "I hate to see victim blaming, but actually aren't there all these other situations where it might not be like rape rape? Why don't we discuss them now in direct response to a completely different situation involving high profile victim blaming."

honestly i I find it really problematic.

*SIB*

Sorry if my question bothered you, but my point was that this Turner case has me thinking about the issue.

I'M not saying it's not rape. ESPECIALLY in the Turner case. I'm just trying to figure out how to respond to what I've seen people arguing.

I guess it's better to you if I just don't ask about these things? How the heck are people supposed to discuss these issues if people like you are going to be dismissive?

Like I said, the Turner case is clear. And I'm not blaming victims. A woman should be able to get as drunk as she pleases without having foreign objects shoved inside her without her consent. I'm just honestly trying to understand HOW these cases are dealt with.

I know that's why we have courts, but obviously they don't always work well. I just wanted to see if anyone here had any good insight at to the legalities involved or the science behind alcohol and consent. I actually got some good answers. So obviously my post wasn't pointless.

bohobrideCA · June 2016

STARMOON44 said:

monkeysip said:

Kind of a heavy topic for the chit chat board, but I'd like to talk to some reasonable women (and occasional men here) from different backgrounds to understand something better.

All this stuff going on with the Stanford rape case is so disturbing. I'm so upset for this girl (and all the other victims out there), and I hate to see the victim blaming that always happens.

But there's one argument I'm having a hard time getting my head wrapped around and being able to respond to. A common argument I've seen is that if the man (or perpetrator, I know a woman can rape too) is intoxicated, then he didn't consent to his actions either. So it's not really rape.

Now, I do understand that sometimes two people can drink too much and end up doing sexual things they wouldn't normally have done. So in a way, sometimes sex isn't truly consensual for either, but it wasn't one person doing it to another necessarily.

But that seems completely different from the Brock Turner case. I don't think that you can just get drunk and take someone behind a dumpster and do sexual things to them while they're unconscious. That just seems like flat out rape, even if he was drunk. But where is the line? Is there a line? How is that handled on both a legal and moral level?

Like, if a girl wakes up at a party and says she's been raped, but the guy says he was drunk too and doesn't even remember, are his actions mitigated at all? Or in the most extreme for form of the question, can he claim rape too?

These are just things I've heard people argue, and while I DO think people like Brock Turner is a rapist, it seems like it can get tricky. Is there any evidence that drinking can make someone who's normally not a rapist do things like force sex on someone else?

Pardon this long post, I'd just like to be better prepared to discuss these things, especially when people argue that it's not rape if both were intoxicated.

To me your post reads as "I hate to see victim blaming, but actually aren't there all these other situations where it might not be like rape rape? Why don't we discuss them now in direct response to a completely different situation involving high profile victim blaming."

honestly i I find it really problematic.

I've got to say, I really didn't see that as her intent. I think she was genuinely trying to find educated responses to defend victims of rape and learn more about what consent is BECAUSE she saw so much victim blaming and wanted to be able to argue against it. This is such an important conversation, we have not been teaching consent to our children. Rape is never excusable, never justified but the ignorance when it comes to what is or is not rape and consent needs to end and that is done with education.

MCmeow · June 2016

That's how I saw it too. It's not talked about enough. It's why her letter should be mandatory reading for everyone especially teenage boys.

TrixieJess · June 2016

CMGragain said:

I know a young lady who was raped by a drunken young man. The young man has no memory of the incident. He served jail time. He has apologized. He will be a registered sex offender for the rest of his life. I knew both people when they were in high school. Very sad for everyone. There are no winners in a rape case.

And here is the problem with rape culture and toxic masculinity right there.

Thank you CMG for that example.

In the Brock Turner case, he comes from a culture of toxicity that reeked through the whole proceeding. We need to teach our boys that women are not objects and that consent is a two way street.

scrunchythief · June 2016

CMGragain said:

STARMOON44 said:

CMGragain said:

I know a young lady who was raped by a drunken young man. The young man has no memory of the incident. He served jail time. He has apologized. He will be a registered sex offender for the rest of his life. I knew both people when they were in high school. Very sad for everyone. There are no winners in a rape case.

No, but there are losers. Who are primarily the women who were raped. I find your post disturbingly focused on the consequences to him, and it isn't equally sad for everyone.

I sent you a PM to tell you why I am so offended by your post.

It is very sad for everyone. The young man is not welcome in my home. The young lady is still a friend. She is very happy in her life, now, and has closure.

You're offended by someone saying it's sadder for the victim of rape than the criminal? Seriously?!

As a two-time survivor, and someone who generally has a lot of compassion towards those convicted of crimes, this position is absurd. If he's really remorseful, he wouldn't want you to be saying that he has it just as rough as she does.

charlotte989875 · June 2016

So I'm taking @monkeysip's word that she really does want science and arguments to try and explain to other people why these situations are still rape.

Here are are some basic stastics on rape and sexual assault:

For on campus assaults (From the 2014-2015 campus climate study by the US gov, averages): 90% of victims know their attackers, 59% of victims believed their attacker to be on drugs or alcohol, 63% of victims used some drugs or alcohol. 7% of rapes and 2.7% of sexual battery (non-rape) were reported.

National data (from RAINN and DOJ): 284,00 raped or sexual assault (over the age of 12); only 6 in 1,000 perpetrators go to prison (compared to 20 of 1,000 perpetrators of burglaries); between 2010-2015 of people that didn't report 20% feared retailiation and 13% didn't believe the police would do anything. 48% of rape victims were sleepy or doing another activity at home when they were attacked.

60% of released prisoners (who were imprisoned because of rape or sexual battery) will be rear rested within 5 years and 51% had at least one (8% had 10+) convictions (felony or misdemeanor) at the time of arrest.

I know now hat doesn't exactly answer your question, but I hope it at least paints the picture of rape and assault in this country.

Also, on how to argue against people saying "well if they are both drink, why is he responsible" if she (or he) says no, even if they're both drunk it's still his responsibility not to rape her (using gendered labels here because 90% of rape victims are women).

SP29 · June 2016

I think the scenarios you bring up @Monkeysip are a few of the reasons why rape can be so hard to convict, unfortunately.

In one of the articles I was reading, it said one of the reasons he was given leniency was because he had also been drinking at the same party, so his judgement was off, versus a "sober male waiting to ambush a young woman".

I don't think it is right, but the prosecution often uses such tactics (you knew each other already? You were both drinking right? You were flirting with him weren't you? Etc) to defame the victim and make the rape seem more like a miscommunication. In the Turner/Stanford case, in the victim's letter, she comments on how this happened to her in trial (they were both drinking at a party, as per Turner they were talking, she apparently rubbed his back, allegedly she earlier agreed to letting him finger her).

I think this case is very clear cut and there is definitely a lot of privilege going on here. She was unconscious, behind a dumpster, he left her when he got scared, and she had various abrasions and internal detritus. That's not two drunken people fooling around. DH and I can have some naughty sex after a few drinks, yet we both know what is going on and neither of us ends up alone somewhere with evidence of trauma.

I get what you are asking, and while yes, generally speaking an intoxicated person lacks capacity, I still think just like drinking and driving, once you initiate an action, you take responsibility for it.

charlotte989875 · June 2016

SP29 said:

I think the scenarios you bring up @Monkeysip are a few of the reasons why rape can be so hard to convict, unfortunately.

In one of the articles I was reading, it said one of the reasons he was given leniency was because he had also been drinking at the same party, so his judgement was off, versus a "sober male waiting to ambush a young woman".

I don't think it is right, but the prosecution often uses such tactics (you knew each other already? You were both drinking right? You were flirting with him weren't you? Etc) to defame the victim and make the rape seem more like a miscommunication. In the Turner/Stanford case, in the victim's letter, she comments on how this happened to her in trial (they were both drinking at a party, as per Turner they were talking, she apparently rubbed his back, allegedly she earlier agreed to letting him finger her).

I think this case is very clear cut and there is definitely a lot of privilege going on here. She was unconscious, behind a dumpster, he left her when he got scared, and she had various abrasions and internal detritus. That's not two drunken people fooling around. DH and I can have some naughty sex after a few drinks, yet we both know what is going on and neither of us ends up alone somewhere with evidence of trauma.

I get what you are asking, and while yes, generally speaking an intoxicated person lacks capacity, I still think just like drinking and driving, once you initiate an action, you take responsibility for it.

This is such a major part of the problem; people believe this is how rape typically happens and when something deviates from that story it just isn't rape. Problem is factually, that's a tiny portion of rapes in this country, most are committed by someone the victim knows.

scrunchythief · June 2016

charlotte989875 said:

So I'm taking @monkeysip's word that she really does want science and arguments to try and explain to other people why these situations are still rape.

Here are are some basic stastics on rape and sexual assault:

For on campus assaults (From the 2014-2015 campus climate study by the US gov, averages): 90% of victims know their attackers, 59% of victims believed their attacker to be on drugs or alcohol, 63% of victims used some drugs or alcohol. 7% of rapes and 2.7% of sexual battery (non-rape) were reported.

National data (from RAINN and DOJ): 284,00 raped or sexual assault (over the age of 12); only 6 in 1,000 perpetrators go to prison (compared to 20 of 1,000 perpetrators of burglaries); between 2010-2015 of people that didn't report 20% feared retailiation and 13% didn't believe the police would do anything. 48% of rape victims were sleepy or doing another activity at home when they were attacked.

60% of released prisoners (who were imprisoned because of rape or sexual battery) will be rear rested within 5 years and 51% had at least one (8% had 10+) convictions (felony or misdemeanor) at the time of arrest.

I know now hat doesn't exactly answer your question, but I hope it at least paints the picture of rape and assault in this country.

Also, on how to argue against people saying "well if they are both drink, why is he responsible" if she (or he) says no, even if they're both drunk it's still his responsibility not to rape her (using gendered labels here because 90% of rape victims are women).

Thank you so much for saying the bolded! I'm really started to get tired of every single time we talk about a woman being raped we have to say "Oh, but men get raped too! Women can rape people too!" Yes that's true, but the vast majority of the time it's a man raping a woman. And men are way more likely to be raped by another man.

It feels less like a genuine attempt to make sure men feel comfortable to come forward when they've been raped and more like a way to shut women up. To ignore that most perps are male and most victims are female in this discussion just doesn't reflect reality.

But seriously, a genuine thank you. I've been called sexist because I'm now a little wary of men I don't know very well. And that was by someone leading a small group discussion on diversity. And then called irrational for still liking dogs after being bit as a child. I just can't win:(

bohobrideCA · June 2016

scrunchythief said:

charlotte989875 said:

So I'm taking @monkeysip's word that she really does want science and arguments to try and explain to other people why these situations are still rape.

Here are are some basic stastics on rape and sexual assault:

For on campus assaults (From the 2014-2015 campus climate study by the US gov, averages): 90% of victims know their attackers, 59% of victims believed their attacker to be on drugs or alcohol, 63% of victims used some drugs or alcohol. 7% of rapes and 2.7% of sexual battery (non-rape) were reported.

National data (from RAINN and DOJ): 284,00 raped or sexual assault (over the age of 12); only 6 in 1,000 perpetrators go to prison (compared to 20 of 1,000 perpetrators of burglaries); between 2010-2015 of people that didn't report 20% feared retailiation and 13% didn't believe the police would do anything. 48% of rape victims were sleepy or doing another activity at home when they were attacked.

60% of released prisoners (who were imprisoned because of rape or sexual battery) will be rear rested within 5 years and 51% had at least one (8% had 10+) convictions (felony or misdemeanor) at the time of arrest.

I know now hat doesn't exactly answer your question, but I hope it at least paints the picture of rape and assault in this country.

Also, on how to argue against people saying "well if they are both drink, why is he responsible" if she (or he) says no, even if they're both drunk it's still his responsibility not to rape her (using gendered labels here because 90% of rape victims are women).

Thank you so much for saying the bolded! I'm really started to get tired of every single time we talk about a woman being raped we have to say "Oh, but men get raped too! Women can rape people too!" Yes that's true, but the vast majority of the time it's a man raping a woman. And men are way more likely to be raped by another man.

It feels less like a genuine attempt to make sure men feel comfortable to come forward when they've been raped and more like a way to shut women up. To ignore that most perps are male and most victims are female in this discussion just doesn't reflect reality.

But seriously, a genuine thank you. I've been called sexist because I'm now a little wary of men I don't know very well. And that was by someone leading a small group discussion on diversity. And then called irrational for still liking dogs after being bit as a child. I just can't win:(

First of all, I agree with all of this. I brought up the women/ men thing when it applies to rape NOT to play devil's advocate but because I didn't want to exclude gay men, lesbians and trans people. They need this conversation expanded to include them. And because we hear that argument (that it's sexist) so much and it is very difficult to articulate against it.

flantastic · June 2016

CMGragain said:

STARMOON44 said:

CMGragain said:

I know a young lady who was raped by a drunken young man. The young man has no memory of the incident. He served jail time. He has apologized. He will be a registered sex offender for the rest of his life. I knew both people when they were in high school. Very sad for everyone. There are no winners in a rape case.

No, but there are losers. Who are primarily the women who were raped. I find your post disturbingly focused on the consequences to him, and it isn't equally sad for everyone.

I sent you a PM to tell you why I am so offended by your post.

It is very sad for everyone. The young man is not welcome in my home. The young lady is still a friend. She is very happy in her life, now, and has closure.

Okay. Forgiveness is big for me. I might try to help a rapist get "back on their feet," per se, particularly if they were remorseful.

HOWEVER, that woman still has to live with the incredibly severe consequences of someone else's actions. That's made even more sad by how terribly violating and unfair it is. Sure, life can be tough after you commit rape, but at least you know it was your own actions and choices that put you in that position. A rape survivor has so many consequences AND had no control over whether he/she suffers them.

I honestly do not understand how you could be offended by "it isn't equally sad for everyone." I know plenty of people who wouldn't even be willing to concede that it's at all sad for the rapist.

levioosa · June 2016

CMGragain said:

STARMOON44 said:

CMGragain said:

I know a young lady who was raped by a drunken young man. The young man has no memory of the incident. He served jail time. He has apologized. He will be a registered sex offender for the rest of his life. I knew both people when they were in high school. Very sad for everyone. There are no winners in a rape case.

No, but there are losers. Who are primarily the women who were raped. I find your post disturbingly focused on the consequences to him, and it isn't equally sad for everyone.

I sent you a PM to tell you why I am so offended by your post.

It is very sad for everyone. The young man is not welcome in my home. The young lady is still a friend. She is very happy in her life, now, and has closure.

Seriously? You know for a fact that she has closure? That she is happy? That she doesn't live with the consequences and reality of her rape every day? Wow, you are so lucky to have that intimate knowledge of her personal thoughts and emotions.

I don't know why you're pretending that the consequences are the same for each party. They're not. They can't be. But by all means, continue to pretend like serving a few months, or years, and having yourself accurately labeled as a sex offender is the same as being beaten, raped, and violated.

CMGragain · June 2016

I know all about the consequences of being a rape victim. Shame on you for jumping to conclusions.

scrunchythief · June 2016

bohobrideCA said:

scrunchythief said:

charlotte989875 said:

So I'm taking @monkeysip's word that she really does want science and arguments to try and explain to other people why these situations are still rape.

Here are are some basic stastics on rape and sexual assault:

For on campus assaults (From the 2014-2015 campus climate study by the US gov, averages): 90% of victims know their attackers, 59% of victims believed their attacker to be on drugs or alcohol, 63% of victims used some drugs or alcohol. 7% of rapes and 2.7% of sexual battery (non-rape) were reported.

National data (from RAINN and DOJ): 284,00 raped or sexual assault (over the age of 12); only 6 in 1,000 perpetrators go to prison (compared to 20 of 1,000 perpetrators of burglaries); between 2010-2015 of people that didn't report 20% feared retailiation and 13% didn't believe the police would do anything. 48% of rape victims were sleepy or doing another activity at home when they were attacked.

60% of released prisoners (who were imprisoned because of rape or sexual battery) will be rear rested within 5 years and 51% had at least one (8% had 10+) convictions (felony or misdemeanor) at the time of arrest.

I know now hat doesn't exactly answer your question, but I hope it at least paints the picture of rape and assault in this country.

Also, on how to argue against people saying "well if they are both drink, why is he responsible" if she (or he) says no, even if they're both drunk it's still his responsibility not to rape her (using gendered labels here because 90% of rape victims are women).

Thank you so much for saying the bolded! I'm really started to get tired of every single time we talk about a woman being raped we have to say "Oh, but men get raped too! Women can rape people too!" Yes that's true, but the vast majority of the time it's a man raping a woman. And men are way more likely to be raped by another man.

It feels less like a genuine attempt to make sure men feel comfortable to come forward when they've been raped and more like a way to shut women up. To ignore that most perps are male and most victims are female in this discussion just doesn't reflect reality.

But seriously, a genuine thank you. I've been called sexist because I'm now a little wary of men I don't know very well. And that was by someone leading a small group discussion on diversity. And then called irrational for still liking dogs after being bit as a child. I just can't win:(

First of all, I agree with all of this. I brought up the women/ men thing when it applies to rape NOT to play devil's advocate but because I didn't want to exclude gay men, lesbians and trans people. They need this conversation expanded to include them. And because we hear that argument (that it's sexist) so much and it is very difficult to articulate against it.

I didn't mean to imply what you were doing was the same. I normally see it from straight cis males. I 100% agree with you that the conversation needs to include trans and not straight people too. Especially since they often experience even higher levels of rape:(

flantastic · June 2016

CMGragain said:

I know all about the consequences of being a rape victim. Shame on you for jumping to conclusions.

I didn't assume anything. I responded to what you wrote, which was that you were offended by the post, and the only possibly "offensive" bit was that it wasn't equally sad for both parties. This is my understanding of one of the ways it is not equally sad.

I am sorry that you too have to deal with said consequences.

Can we talk about rape for a moment?

Re: Can we talk about rape for a moment?

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