Can we talk about rape for a moment?

kimmiinthemitten · June 2016

So much to respond to.

First and foremost: hugs and love to @scrunchythief and any other victims who Are reading this. I know it's not enough, nothing ever is.

The sad thing about being an American woman (because I can't speak for the experience of those outside of our country) is that we are all either victims of rape, victims of assault, almost victims, friends of survivors, or multiple categories. Yet when we complain or speak up we are all too often sushed.

Which brings me to my next point, @monkeysip I can't believe there is a debate on this topic. (Brock). I literally just got off of the phone with my BIL who went on a 45 minute tirade about how fathers need to teach their boys to respect women and not objectify them and how angry this whole story makes him and scared for his daughter. I have yet to encounter a singe Brock apologist; I was actually telling FI how good it was to see so many men vocalize support for the girl (I can't call her his victim, it's demeaning and revictimizing since its possessive).

I would tell them to go get wasted and rob a bank and tell the judge they were too drunk to know what they were doing. Or remind them that although admitting to being drunk, Brock testified that he remembered everything which means he admitted to the court that he knew she was unconscious and still raped her anyways.

However, to the larger question, it's tough. Switched at Birth incorporated that exact question into their story line when 2 drunk characters remember different versions of the night before. The female believed she was too drunk to consent but doesn't feel comfortable labeling it as rape. I felt they went light on the topic of date rape, and believe as a PP said that alcohol doesn't make you do things you would never do. As FI said, I've been drunk and sober plenty of times with drunk women and never once did I think it was my time to make a move.

Rapists rape and blame their victims or alcohol after the fact just like an assaulter throws the first punch and then blames his victim. The people who walk away from the scenario will do that every.single.time and that is what separates the real men (generic) from the victimizers.

@Cmgraigan I will never. Ever. Ever. Feel a drop of sympathy for a convicted and guilty rapist. It should screw up the remainder of their life just like they screwed up someone else's. A man being convicted and suffering the lifelong consequences of his rape isn't sad, it's just.

monkeysip · June 2016

kimmiinthemitten said:

Which brings me to my next point, @monkeysip I can't believe there is a debate on this topic. (Brock). I literally just got off of the phone with my BIL who went on a 45 minute tirade about how fathers need to teach their boys to respect women and not objectify them and how angry this whole story makes him and scared for his daughter. I have yet to encounter a singe Brock apologist; I was actually telling FI how good it was to see so many men vocalize support for the girl (I can't call her his victim, it's demeaning and revictimizing since its possessive).

Unfortunately, yes, some people are just saying that this is a case of two people who got too drunk and ended up fooling around (therefore, it's drinking that's to blame, not rape culture). I completely agree that this doesn't fit the evidence. Why would they be behind a dumpster? Why did he run? Why was he decently coherent and she unconscious?

I think that's the big problem with cases of rape over other crimes though... there's often not enough evidence. Of course I'd like to believe every woman when she says this happens (I'm sure the % of women who would actually lie about this is really really low). But at the same time, he said/she said doesn't play out too well in the court (unless the defendant is black, like someone else already said). And there's not always physical proof.

scrunchythief · June 2016

monkeysip said:

kimmiinthemitten said:

Which brings me to my next point, @monkeysip I can't believe there is a debate on this topic. (Brock). I literally just got off of the phone with my BIL who went on a 45 minute tirade about how fathers need to teach their boys to respect women and not objectify them and how angry this whole story makes him and scared for his daughter. I have yet to encounter a singe Brock apologist; I was actually telling FI how good it was to see so many men vocalize support for the girl (I can't call her his victim, it's demeaning and revictimizing since its possessive).

Unfortunately, yes, some people are just saying that this is a case of two people who got too drunk and ended up fooling around (therefore, it's drinking that's to blame, not rape culture). I completely agree that this doesn't fit the evidence. Why would they be behind a dumpster? Why did he run? Why was he decently coherent and she unconscious?

I think that's the big problem with cases of rape over other crimes though... there's often not enough evidence. Of course I'd like to believe every woman when she says this happens (I'm sure the % of women who would actually lie about this is really really low). But at the same time, he said/she said doesn't play out too well in the court (unless the defendant is black, like someone else already said). And there's not always physical proof.

Our justice system has been weighted towards presuming innocence. In most cases this is a good thing, but you're right that it makes it harder to get a rape conviction. There also many other factors that make it harder than it should be. DA's are less willing to prosecute, even when they have evidence. That's part of why I, and I'm sure so many others, are enraged when we do get a conviction that the sentence is minuscule.

The percentage of false reporting is actually lower for rape and sexual assault than for other crimes. Including other crimes where there's often more evidence. So while, yeah, it can happen, it's not frequent. But every. single. fucking. time. a woman says she was raped, someone has to say they think she's lying. I've never seen a news article on rape, online, without seeing that. (Anger not directed at you, Sip. Just this massively unfair society.)

charlotte989875 · June 2016

monkeysip said:

kimmiinthemitten said:

Which brings me to my next point, @monkeysip I can't believe there is a debate on this topic. (Brock). I literally just got off of the phone with my BIL who went on a 45 minute tirade about how fathers need to teach their boys to respect women and not objectify them and how angry this whole story makes him and scared for his daughter. I have yet to encounter a singe Brock apologist; I was actually telling FI how good it was to see so many men vocalize support for the girl (I can't call her his victim, it's demeaning and revictimizing since its possessive).

Unfortunately, yes, some people are just saying that this is a case of two people who got too drunk and ended up fooling around (therefore, it's drinking that's to blame, not rape culture). I completely agree that this doesn't fit the evidence. Why would they be behind a dumpster? Why did he run? Why was he decently coherent and she unconscious?

I think that's the big problem with cases of rape over other crimes though... there's often not enough evidence. Of course I'd like to believe every woman when she says this happens (I'm sure the % of women who would actually lie about this is really really low). But at the same time, he said/she said doesn't play out too well in the court (unless the defendant is black, like someone else already said). And there's not always physical proof.

I think this ties into the discussion about what rape culture is and how it's perpetuated. Often there is evidence that can be collected and tested. Many women don't report, or seek medical attention, within the time in which evidence can best be preserved. Often times they are afraid; of not being believed, of retaliation, the attacker threatened them or their families if they report, of the police not being able to help them. Additionally, there is a massive backlog in having rape kits tested, so even if there is evidence collected it's not even tested.

Because we make it so hard for victims to report, and to get justice when they do report. Because collecting evidence is traumatic and painful (physically and mentally) for survivors. Because reporting rape is so much more difficult than reporting other crimes, there often is evidence that can be collected, but the burden to do so is so much higher.

Also, @monkeysip I don't mean to come off as jumping all over your posts, I think it's good to ask and discuss these questions because I believe that's the only way we ever change minds.

CMGragain · June 2016

I love Law and Order SVU. OK, it is fiction. But they catch the rapist and he actually goes to jail!

kimmiinthemitten · June 2016

scrunchythief said:

The percentage of false reporting is actually lower for rape and sexual assault than for other crimes. Including other crimes where there's often more evidence. So while, yeah, it can happen, it's not frequent. But every. single. fucking. time. a woman says she was raped, someone has to say they think she's lying. I've never seen a news article on rape, online, without seeing that. (Anger not directed at you, Sip. Just this massively unfair society.)

A few months ago FI and I watched the 30 on 30 series about the Duke Lacrosse Players and the false accusations of rape that they faced. At the end, their message was clear that their case should not be used to cast doubt or cause problems for victims, and yet every time it is. Some people only believe what they want to sadly. And unless it's a movie scene rape, or a creepy rapist, some people will never believe attractive, rich or famous people are capable of this crime. But then again those people still believe it's a crime of sex and passion instead of a crime of control, entitlement and opportunity.

monkeysip · June 2016

I really hope nothing I said in any of my posts at all came across as insensitive or victim blaming.

My mother went to a guy's house just to have dinner. Wasn't even a date. He was a nice guy. He pulled a gun on her and raped her. She never told the police. She never told ANYONE. Not even MY FATHER whom she was married to for 10 years. The only two people she ever told in the 40 years since it happened was my sister and I, and she even regretted that because it was so painful for her to talk about. I agree completely that the way we treat rape victims and the way we discuss rape has to change. I only ask all these questions to help clarify the discussion in my head, not because I think they're responsible in any way for any of this.

LondonLisa · June 2016

No, it isn't sad for a rapist in any way shape or form. I have zero sympathy. I know plenty of people who have been so drunk they don't remember things. None of them have stuck their genitiles in a passed out person.

What's sad is we aren't teaching our boys about concent. That one talk about "if the person isn't 100% into it, sober enough to make a decision and awake, don't touch them" because that is rape.

Im just sick of women being taught to not drink, wear certain clothes, or be physically present, but it is too hard to teach men to not touch someone unless they want to be touched.

MCmeow · June 2016

Saw this on Facebook. Sums it up perfectly

monkeysip · June 2016

I saw that ^^ on Facebook today and felt like it was a pretty good response to the question I first posed. I may have to save that and post it when I see people bring up the alcohol issue.

lc07 · June 2016

LondonLisa said:

No, it isn't sad for a rapist in any way shape or form. I have zero sympathy. I know plenty of people who have been so drunk they don't remember things. None of them have stuck their genitiles in a passed out person.

What's sad is we aren't teaching our boys about concent. That one talk about "if the person isn't 100% into it, sober enough to make a decision and awake, don't touch them" because that is rape.

Im just sick of women being taught to not drink, wear certain clothes, or be physically present, but it is too hard to teach men to not touch someone unless they want to be touched.

This might be true, and I agree with you almost all the time, Lisa, I love your contributions to our community. But I've seen the bolded floating around a lot lately too and this bugs me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. But it comes across to me like saying he wasn't taught any better so how could he know it was wrong? Sorry, but smart enough to get into Stanford I think it's common sense to not violate another human being. My parents never sat me down and talked to me about not robbing banks, raping or murdering and I knew full well not to do those things. While I think discussing these things with kids is important, the bolded rubs me wrong because it sounds like it's not the perpetrator's fault because he wasn't explicitly taught not to do it.

kimmiinthemitten · June 2016

@lc07 if you look at studies and interviews held with today's teens/ young adults, it's amazing how many of them truly don't understand consent. This is a failure of our sexual education system because at some point right and wrong is taught. It doesn't diminish his individual capacity to understand his role or take the blame and consequences for it, but it does speak to a larger sociatal problem.

I am on my phone right now so it's hard to simultaneously search and post, but I read a study a few months ago where high school aged girls literally did not know they could change their mind. They thought once they said yes, that was it and even if they changed their minds or didn't matter.

We are taking about a society where elementary aged school girls have purse day that includes lessons on pads and periods in addition the importance of the buddy system. Where middle school girls are taught it's okay that boys slap your ass and snap your bras because it means they like you. And once they enter in high school they learn it doesn't matter if you're a prude or a slut, you will be criticized and humiliated for your sexual choices, so you're wrong either way.

Yes. We need to do a better job at teaching what consent is. And we need to start by having opening 'purse day' to boys so they understand where we learn to watch our backs and walk with a key in front of our knuckle and so everyone understands consent.

scrunchythief · June 2016

lc07 said:

LondonLisa said:

No, it isn't sad for a rapist in any way shape or form. I have zero sympathy. I know plenty of people who have been so drunk they don't remember things. None of them have stuck their genitiles in a passed out person.

What's sad is we aren't teaching our boys about concent. That one talk about "if the person isn't 100% into it, sober enough to make a decision and awake, don't touch them" because that is rape.

Im just sick of women being taught to not drink, wear certain clothes, or be physically present, but it is too hard to teach men to not touch someone unless they want to be touched.

This might be true, and I agree with you almost all the time, Lisa, I love your contributions to our community. But I've seen the bolded floating around a lot lately too and this bugs me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. But it comes across to me like saying he wasn't taught any better so how could he know it was wrong? Sorry, but smart enough to get into Stanford I think it's common sense to not violate another human being. My parents never sat me down and talked to me about not robbing banks, raping or murdering and I knew full well not to do those things. While I think discussing these things with kids is important, the bolded rubs me wrong because it sounds like it's not the perpetrator's fault because he wasn't explicitly taught not to do it.

So yes, it should be common sense. But horrifically, it isn't. The TLDR of this study: http://www.soci270.carvajal.ca/documents/KossTheScopeofRape.pdf
is that 1 out of 12 college males admitted to forcible rape of a woman when asked questions that didn't use the word rape. But only 84% of those who admitted to physically forcing a woman to have sex believed what they did was illegal.

And that's just forcible rape. Not raping an unconscious woman. Not coercing or using blackmail, or anything else sketchy. Literally holding her down to force sex when she doesn't want it.

But it's still his fault and he's still 100% culpable, ethically, morally and legally even if he'd never heard of any of this.

But if we're going to talk about teaching people behaviors to reduce rape, teaching about what consent is would do more to reduce rates of rape more than teaching women not to drink or whatever. And there have been a few studies showing this approach is effective, though we need more research and fine tuning.

lc07 · June 2016

@kimmiinthemitten and @scrunchythief thanks for taking the time to explain it to me. Maybe it shows my privilege that I have a hard time understanding it. It's so incredibly sad (and fascinating) that some people truly believe that doing this to another human being is not illegal or a violation of someone's personal rights and extremely damaging to them. TBH, I just have a really hard time understanding how you could go through life and get to age 19 still thinking that it is okay. But I have had the good fortune of a wonderful upbringing.

Either way, I don't think it hurts to have this discussion with kids and educate them. But when this comes up in the context of Brock's case and our general discussion it just reads as an excuse for the perpetrator to me. Like he possibly didn't know any better because he wasn't educated on this topic. And that is just bullshit to me even though I'm trying to understand your explanation that some people do this not realizing it isn't okay?

LondonLisa · June 2016

lc07 said:

LondonLisa said:

No, it isn't sad for a rapist in any way shape or form. I have zero sympathy. I know plenty of people who have been so drunk they don't remember things. None of them have stuck their genitiles in a passed out person.

What's sad is we aren't teaching our boys about concent. That one talk about "if the person isn't 100% into it, sober enough to make a decision and awake, don't touch them" because that is rape.

Im just sick of women being taught to not drink, wear certain clothes, or be physically present, but it is too hard to teach men to not touch someone unless they want to be touched.

This might be true, and I agree with you almost all the time, Lisa, I love your contributions to our community. But I've seen the bolded floating around a lot lately too and this bugs me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. But it comes across to me like saying he wasn't taught any better so how could he know it was wrong? Sorry, but smart enough to get into Stanford I think it's common sense to not violate another human being. My parents never sat me down and talked to me about not robbing banks, raping or murdering and I knew full well not to do those things. While I think discussing these things with kids is important, the bolded rubs me wrong because it sounds like it's not the perpetrator's fault because he wasn't explicitly taught not to do it.

I think the problem is that he think he is the victim here. I think he knows what he did was wrong, but his actions (and father's letter) demonstrate they think this wasn't "real rape" because to them that is a stranger stalking a woman and grabbing her out of a parking structure. To them, they see it as a party that got out of control, because he is society's version of a "good kid". Just look at the way they call him the Stanford swimmer instead of convicted rapist. The way he blames "party culture".

rape culture is saying all these gray areas. What we need to teach everyone is that take isn't some random person jumping out and assaulting a woman.

Rape culture is people saying it is sad for both of them because they had bright futures.

We need to let people know that rape, most of the time, is not some stranger attacking, but this situation.

Sex without consent (and making sure the person is able to give consent, and that "yes means yes", not no means no) is rape 100% of the time. It doesn't matter if the other party I said yes and passed out, said yes previously etc etc, If they aren't active participant, it is rape.

I was not surprised to hear the rescuers were Swedish. Sweden has incredibly progressive education on rape, consent, recognising date rape etc. They also have the world's strongest rape laws. Young people are taught from an early age about consent and healthy sexual relationships. They are taught how to recognise date rape, the psychology of it and the importance of active consent. I think this was key in them recognising this wasn't two drunk kids hooking up, but a horrific crime.

It isn't changing or excusing the behaviour, it labeling it appropriately. And educating young men about the clear definition, is the first step.

I remember in the 90s there was a big push against sexual harassment in the workplace. It was incredibly successful because they defined it clearly and made it so everyone knew what was inappropriate. Before that, a lot of people thought sexual harassment was "sleep with me for a promotion" and anything else was a "bitch who couldn't take a joke". Defining, educating, legislating had done a lot to help with workplace boundaries.

http://youtu.be/oQbei5JGiT8

TrixieJess · June 2016

lc07 said:

LondonLisa said:

No, it isn't sad for a rapist in any way shape or form. I have zero sympathy. I know plenty of people who have been so drunk they don't remember things. None of them have stuck their genitiles in a passed out person.

What's sad is we aren't teaching our boys about concent. That one talk about "if the person isn't 100% into it, sober enough to make a decision and awake, don't touch them" because that is rape.

Im just sick of women being taught to not drink, wear certain clothes, or be physically present, but it is too hard to teach men to not touch someone unless they want to be touched.

This might be true, and I agree with you almost all the time, Lisa, I love your contributions to our community. But I've seen the bolded floating around a lot lately too and this bugs me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. But it comes across to me like saying he wasn't taught any better so how could he know it was wrong? Sorry, but smart enough to get into Stanford I think it's common sense to not violate another human being. My parents never sat me down and talked to me about not robbing banks, raping or murdering and I knew full well not to do those things. While I think discussing these things with kids is important, the bolded rubs me wrong because it sounds like it's not the perpetrator's fault because he wasn't explicitly taught not to do it.

They have just revamped our provincial sex-ed program to integrate modules that deal with consent, how it is given and what it is and what it is not.

The problem lays in that intoxication in cases of rape and sexual assault should be black and white when it comes to consent, but as you can see when it comes to the court of public opinion, it becomes a very different monster.

monkeysip · June 2016

I teach at an all girls high school, and my students are very interested in this topic. They wanted to discuss the issue of rape and consent laws on college campuses, so it's really good that they're thinking about these things. We have a counselor who comes and talks about that kind of stuff, but the only problem is that I'm not at the boys schools to hear what they're being told. I'm assuming it's good stuff about how to respect women and what consent means, but it sucks as the teacher of only teen girls, I can only help prevent it from the victim side, making sure the girls at least understand that they can say NO and that being drunk doesn't give a boy the right to touch them.

scrunchythief · June 2016

@lc07, I'm not sure it's a privilege thing. I've spent an ungodly amount of time researching this. If you're interested, this is a pretty good, empirically backed resource on how sexual offenders think:
https://sapac.umich.edu/article/196

One particular point from that list is important to me in this discussion. "Sex offenders are experts in rationalizing their behavior. (Slicner, 2007)"

So they want to do this. And like most people, they want to think that what they do is right, or at least not that bad. So they might be able to realize that for other people to do the same actions, it'd be wrong. But they convince themselves that their actions are an exception. Or that "everybody" else does it, so it can't be that bad. Or "yeah, it'd be wrong if she didn't want it, but I know she wanted it.(even if she said no or is passed out)"

Which is why rape myths and victim blaming can actually be dangerous. They give people ready-made rationalizations, which then makes it easier to act on their desires.

Also relevant to this case, from the same link:
Men are more likely to commit sexual violence in communities where sexual violence goes unpunished. (National Sexual Violence Resource Center, 2004).
Sex offenders minimize their number of victims. Speaking with 99 male sex offenders, court records showed 136 victims between them, but later during treatment, they eventually confessed to 959 victims between them (Slicner, 2007).

So between those two points, men seeing Turner's light sentence might be more likely to rape people. And Turner may have had more victims he won't admit to.

scrunchythief · June 2016

And, while we're on the subject of rape culture...can we please not tell rape victims they should get counseling because we're angry? At least not without concrete evidence that their anger is seriously disrupting their life?

That was especially painful for me because I've been in counseling since before I was raped, and both my rapists used my mental illness to rape me. Yes, I've been more angry now because of the recent news attention to this epidemic. No, that's not an unhealthy reaction.

I thought a long time before deciding to post that this happened in a PM, because I didn't want to start drama. But I thought that since there are so many women here that genuinely want to know what to do/not to do, it would help more than it would potentially hurt.

holyguacamole79 · June 2016

I'm mostly lurking on this thread, but just wanted to say that I'm sorry for what happened to your mom, @monkeysip.

CMGragain · June 2016

About the anger issue, it depends. Anger turned inwards is not good. This is what I tend to do. This is why I recommend counseling for anger issues.
My faith in God helped me cope with a lot of trauma. I have a really hard time dealing with my own anger, and it takes a lot for me to get very angry.

tigerlily6 · June 2016

I struggle with figuring out issues of competency in rape also. Legally, either there is no rape or each person is raping the other. But in reality, I think, there are almost always offenders and victims. When I was five years old, my mom took me with her while she was visiting with a friend. That friend had an adopted daughter around my age, and the two of us were sent outside to play. That girl ended up molesting me -- I was incredibly upset and didn't know what had happened but knew it was wrong. I remember crying and trying to explain it to my parents that evening, and I felt guilty, that it was my fault somehow. It took me years and years to finally deal with that sense of guilt and anxiety from that afternoon as a child, and finally went to get some counseling to work through it when I was in college.

My aggressor was another little girl. I now can look back and probably theorize that she had likely been abused herself at some point. That may mitigate her actions to a degree, but it does not excuse them, and that doesn't not make me a victim of her behavior which she initiated.

drunkenwitch · June 2016

I look at this way. I know lots of amazing men. I've also been around them when they were drunk. Drunkity, drunk drunk. Somehow they manged to NOT TO RAPE ANYONE. A rapist is a rapist, drunk, high or sober. Full stop.

scrunchythief · June 2016

@tigerlily6, I'm sorry that happened to you and I'm glad you got help to do the work you needed to do to process.

@CMGragain, can you just stop it already? I'm already in counseling and I don't have a problem with anger. Telling rape victims to get counseling for legitimate anger contributes to internalizing that guilt and shame. If you are uncomfortable seeing someone be angry about something they absolutely should be angry about (especially when they're using that anger to work for positive change), then you're the one with the problem, not them.

TrixieJess · June 2016

CMGragain said:

About the anger issue, it depends. Anger turned inwards is not good. This is what I tend to do. This is why I recommend counseling for anger issues.
My faith in God helped me cope with a lot of trauma. I have a really hard time dealing with my own anger, and it takes a lot for me to get very angry.

There is nothing wrong with anger. Without anger we would not have the Women's Rights movement, right to vote, the Civil Rights Movement, Stonewall, the 60s...etc... I could go on.

Women are not delicate little flowers who will wilt if they get angry and express it. On the contrary, it makes us empathetic people. Maybe you should stop the armchair psychology, and just allow people their thoughts and feelings even if it upsets your delicate sensibilities.

Can we talk about rape for a moment?

Re: Can we talk about rape for a moment?

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