I'm going to put my head through a wall...

monkeysip · June 2016

UGH. Just need to vent.

Yesterday I had to explain to a young girl that being born into wealth and having a great private school education is a privilege that she didn't "earn" with hard work (she was lecturing people on Facebook about needing to work for everything they get--nothing is free).

Today I'm trying to explain to a couple people that white privilege is a real thing, and that acknowledging white privilege is NOT "reverse discrimination".

I'm so done. Kill me now.

DrillSergeantCat · June 2016

I have a facebook friend that is the exact same way. I totally understand wanting to put your head through a wall.

OurWildKingdom · June 2016

One of many reasons I take periodic breaks from Facebook.

kimmiinthemitten · June 2016

Two people I went to HS with are having the white pride conversation on Facebook today. The friend I agree with did a good job of explaining that white isn't a nationality or religion and is therefore different than say Irish Pride.

I'm in the more rural part of my state today and when I stopped at the local gas station/gun shop I overheard about Hillarys secret plan to create more mass shootings so she can take all of our guns and force everyone onto welfare.

monkeysip · June 2016

kimmiinthemitten said:

Two people I went to HS with are having the white pride conversation on Facebook today. The friend I agree with did a good job of explaining that white isn't a nationality or religion and is therefore different than say Irish Pride.

I'm in the more rural part of my state today and when I stopped at the local gas station/gun shop I overheard about Hillarys secret plan to create more mass shootings so she can take all of our guns and force everyone onto welfare.

That's part of what this conversation was too... why is "white pride" wrong. Because white isn't a culture...

Oooh, you know that Hillary is always up to some secret plan that will somehow destroy the world. I love learning about a new one each day! Lol.

monkeysip · June 2016

And yes, I need a Facebook break! The crazy is so strong on there right now...

Anyone got any vents lately? Any crazy they want to tell us about?

scrunchythief · June 2016

Someone told my FB friend that he's worse than the Nazis and the KKK for suggesting that racism might be part of why the Orlando shooter is called a terrorist and the Charleston church shooter wasn't.

Another guy I know from church has been aggressively defending gun rights and is against any legislation that "could result in his handgun being taken away". I'm actually kind of scared to go to church now.

I think I'm overdue for a FB break...

SP29 · June 2016

Ugh....

White privilege definitely exists. There are days I feel ashamed to be a white person...

The biggest thing I keep seeing that annoys me about all this gun talk is the people who say, "Well if I/someone like me was there with my gun, the scenario would have turned out a lot different". Um, no. I do not think you are trained to deal with an active shooter in a high risk, high tension situation involving a small space with lots of civilians. Unless by different, you mean more casualties.

I also want to smack my head every time there is the word "terrorism" or "ISIS" associated with anything as SOMEONE jumps up and says, "SEE! We shouldn't let the refugees in!". Dude, the shooter was born in this country!

Anywho....

monkeysip · June 2016

Yeah, the gun talk lately is driving me insane too. I'm not necessarily in favor of every gun control idea floating around, but it bothers me that I have some pro-gun friends on FB that won't even CONSIDER *ANY* legislation that could possibly limit gun rights at all. They become enraged even at the thought of it.

I just don't know why we can't have reasonable, adult discussions over the issue. I mean, ALL rights have limits. We have to try to objectively consider the pros/cons. Not shut down any discussion immediately. It's scary.

MCmeow · June 2016

If you explain the Brock Turner case to them, and they still don't believe white privilege exists, they. are. hopeless... And yeah the gun control thing is idiotic, and it's partly because the Dem party has no backbone anymore. The republicans tried to repeal Obamacare 60 times, and when it comes to gun reform, when democrats are defeated once, that's it, no more trying until the next shooting. Although the biggest problem is money in politics.

Also these gun nuts don't realize this scenario: if they are a "good guy with a gun", and the police arrive, how do the police know who the shooter is? In this high tension situation where police need to make a quick decision the "good guys with a gun" have a death wish. They don't realize they'll likely get mistaken as the criminal.

ericasm0703 · June 2016

Donald Trump's proposed policies for his potential presidency. If I hear one more thing about that man, I might have to take a permanent vacation to another planet.

kimmiinthemitten · June 2016

First of all, the Orlando shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS, Hezbollah, and the Taliban (all competing factions) and worked for a company that started as an Israeli Prison Company. I explained that to a level minded friend who does support some crazy stuff on occasion and she was like holy crap, he wasn't a terrorist then. That was my dose of hope humanity that was swept away.

I too too hate the superheroes. Joe Blow with a CPL could stop the shooter when an off duty and armed Orlando cop couldn't. But don't reason with them and explain that witnesses say the club was so dark they could only see the flash from the gun and not the shooter himself, just like in Aurora. And don't tell them about the guy at the Arizona shooting with Gabby Giffords who did have a gun and almost pulled it out and second thought his decision (which was good because he almost pulled it out on the guy who wrestled the gun away from the shooter). And don't get FI started on the people who think all teachers should be armed and trained even when most schools have armed liaison officers nowadays.

You don't like the no fly no buy bill because it violates your right against self incrimination? Okay fine. But can we really not agree on mandatory wait times and background checks so the FBI can investigate them for a couple days before they can walk out with a gun that can kill or injure 102 people?

AddieCake · June 2016

A woman I know doesn't understand why we have to all be so PC now and not just call all Hispanic people Mexican. "Back in my day, we didn't have all this PC crap and they were Mexicans."

I tried to explain geography to her, and she still didn't understand. I wish I was kidding.

banana468 · June 2016

kimmiinthemitten said:

First of all, the Orlando shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS, Hezbollah, and the Taliban (all competing factions) and worked for a company that started as an Israeli Prison Company. I explained that to a level minded friend who does support some crazy stuff on occasion and she was like holy crap, he wasn't a terrorist then. That was my dose of hope humanity that was swept away.

I too too hate the superheroes. Joe Blow with a CPL could stop the shooter when an off duty and armed Orlando cop couldn't. But don't reason with them and explain that witnesses say the club was so dark they could only see the flash from the gun and not the shooter himself, just like in Aurora. And don't tell them about the guy at the Arizona shooting with Gabby Giffords who did have a gun and almost pulled it out and second thought his decision (which was good because he almost pulled it out on the guy who wrestled the gun away from the shooter). And don't get FI started on the people who think all teachers should be armed and trained even when most schools have armed liaison officers nowadays.

You don't like the no fly no buy bill because it violates your right against self incrimination? Okay fine. But can we really not agree on mandatory wait times and background checks so the FBI can investigate them for a couple days before they can walk out with a gun that can kill or injure 102 people?

This is where I am. Can we at least agree that we need to do a better job at checking those who want to buy a gun??

I will say I'm not thrilled with the legislation proposed. Among them are the issues that you don't know when you're on the no fly list or a government surveillance list. And since the government is SO GOOD (eyeroll) at making sure that the people on those lists should be on there, I do think it's not fair to perfectly law abiding citizens to find out that they're on a list for no other reason than an "Ooops. Your names look similar." or even better, "Oh whoa how'd that get there??"

We need to do better. And we also need to do better about proposing laws so the ones that a very divided Senate will vote on have a chance of passing. Otherwise this is an exercise in politics and nothing more.

And let's make sure that we've looked into the merits of the law and why they may not work. We've seen that 3 Strikes laws looked good on paper until they were implemented. Our safety is necessary but so are our rights. Surely we can get people to make sure that both work.

DrillSergeantCat · June 2016

banana468 said:
This is where I am. Can we at least agree that we need to do a better job at checking those who want to buy a gun??

I will say I'm not thrilled with the legislation proposed. Among them are the issues that you don't know when you're on the no fly list or a government surveillance list. And since the government is SO GOOD (eyeroll) at making sure that the people on those lists should be on there, I do think it's not fair to perfectly law abiding citizens to find out that they're on a list for no other reason than an "Ooops. Your names look similar." or even better, "Oh whoa how'd that get there??"

We need to do better. And we also need to do better about proposing laws so the ones that a very divided Senate will vote on have a chance of passing. Otherwise this is an exercise in politics and nothing more.

And let's make sure that we've looked into the merits of the law and why they may not work. We've seen that 3 Strikes laws looked good on paper until they were implemented. Our safety is necessary but so are our rights. Surely we can get people to make sure that both work.

That right there is the reason I don't agree with the no fly no buy legislation. My ex was on the no fly (extra security check, I should say) list because he has a very common name. The government was looking for someone with that name who owed either back taxes or child support, I can't remember which. Whenever we flew, he was detained and questioned until they could determine that he wasn't the person they were looking for.

Now...had he been on the list for possible terrorist connections or illegal activity not money related, I could see not allowing him to purchase a gun.

banana468 · June 2016

DrillSergeantCat said:

banana468 said:
This is where I am. Can we at least agree that we need to do a better job at checking those who want to buy a gun??

I will say I'm not thrilled with the legislation proposed. Among them are the issues that you don't know when you're on the no fly list or a government surveillance list. And since the government is SO GOOD (eyeroll) at making sure that the people on those lists should be on there, I do think it's not fair to perfectly law abiding citizens to find out that they're on a list for no other reason than an "Ooops. Your names look similar." or even better, "Oh whoa how'd that get there??"

We need to do better. And we also need to do better about proposing laws so the ones that a very divided Senate will vote on have a chance of passing. Otherwise this is an exercise in politics and nothing more.

And let's make sure that we've looked into the merits of the law and why they may not work. We've seen that 3 Strikes laws looked good on paper until they were implemented. Our safety is necessary but so are our rights. Surely we can get people to make sure that both work.

That right there is the reason I don't agree with the no fly no buy legislation. My ex was on the no fly (extra security check, I should say) list because he has a very common name. The government was looking for someone with that name who owed either back taxes or child support, I can't remember which. Whenever we flew, he was detained and questioned until they could determine that he wasn't the person they were looking for.

Now...had he been on the list for possible terrorist connections or illegal activity not money related, I could see not allowing him to purchase a gun.

And if there are common first and last names with those who are actually linked to terrorist organizations, then the proposed "no fly no buy" list is actually further discriminatory simply based on profiling.

I agree that it is far too easy to get a gun. But let's dot our "Is" and cross the "Ts" before we even write the legislation.

kimmiinthemitten · June 2016

banana468 said:

DrillSergeantCat said:

banana468 said:
This is where I am. Can we at least agree that we need to do a better job at checking those who want to buy a gun??

I will say I'm not thrilled with the legislation proposed. Among them are the issues that you don't know when you're on the no fly list or a government surveillance list. And since the government is SO GOOD (eyeroll) at making sure that the people on those lists should be on there, I do think it's not fair to perfectly law abiding citizens to find out that they're on a list for no other reason than an "Ooops. Your names look similar." or even better, "Oh whoa how'd that get there??"

We need to do better. And we also need to do better about proposing laws so the ones that a very divided Senate will vote on have a chance of passing. Otherwise this is an exercise in politics and nothing more.

And let's make sure that we've looked into the merits of the law and why they may not work. We've seen that 3 Strikes laws looked good on paper until they were implemented. Our safety is necessary but so are our rights. Surely we can get people to make sure that both work.

That right there is the reason I don't agree with the no fly no buy legislation. My ex was on the no fly (extra security check, I should say) list because he has a very common name. The government was looking for someone with that name who owed either back taxes or child support, I can't remember which. Whenever we flew, he was detained and questioned until they could determine that he wasn't the person they were looking for.

Now...had he been on the list for possible terrorist connections or illegal activity not money related, I could see not allowing him to purchase a gun.

And if there are common first and last names with those who are actually linked to terrorist organizations, then the proposed "no fly no buy" list is actually further discriminatory simply based on profiling.

I agree that it is far too easy to get a gun. But let's dot our "Is" and cross the "Ts" before we even write the legislation.

But to your original point, they don't want to. It's all a dog and pony show with no real goal of compromise.

I had a huge gun owner advocate try arguing with me that the gun show loophole was a myth and refused to listen even when other gun owner advocates agreed with me that in many states, private owners can sell to other private owners without a background check and even included links to websites where you can buy guns without a background check as long as the ship to is in certain states. Some people just don't want to see past the tip of their own nose.

scrunchythief · June 2016

DrillSergeantCat said:

banana468 said:
This is where I am. Can we at least agree that we need to do a better job at checking those who want to buy a gun??

I will say I'm not thrilled with the legislation proposed. Among them are the issues that you don't know when you're on the no fly list or a government surveillance list. And since the government is SO GOOD (eyeroll) at making sure that the people on those lists should be on there, I do think it's not fair to perfectly law abiding citizens to find out that they're on a list for no other reason than an "Ooops. Your names look similar." or even better, "Oh whoa how'd that get there??"

We need to do better. And we also need to do better about proposing laws so the ones that a very divided Senate will vote on have a chance of passing. Otherwise this is an exercise in politics and nothing more.

And let's make sure that we've looked into the merits of the law and why they may not work. We've seen that 3 Strikes laws looked good on paper until they were implemented. Our safety is necessary but so are our rights. Surely we can get people to make sure that both work.

That right there is the reason I don't agree with the no fly no buy legislation. My ex was on the no fly (extra security check, I should say) list because he has a very common name. The government was looking for someone with that name who owed either back taxes or child support, I can't remember which. Whenever we flew, he was detained and questioned until they could determine that he wasn't the person they were looking for.

Now...had he been on the list for possible terrorist connections or illegal activity not money related, I could see not allowing him to purchase a gun.

I had a friend who was also on the extra security list starting at age 10 because his father is a psychologist who researches terrorism. So I definitely get that frustration. But that is different from the no fly list that they're proposing limiting guns. If you can get on the plane, you're not on that list. Also, you do have the right to appeal being denied a gun, so it's not like there's no due process involved. It just might take longer.

I really want two things at the moment-allowing the ATF to use computers so that background check flags can be investigated in a timely manner. They currently have to search through millions of paper records and only have 3 days to do it.

And second, repeal the Dickie amendment so that the CDC can fund gun safety research. This should be a no brainer, and even the guy whose name is on the law is now against it.

And I admit, I'm a bit of an extremist. I think owning a gun should be a privilege, not a right, though especially for hunting, I think it should be legal. But I can at least see the other side, and think compromises can be found. But I really don't see that too much on the pro-gun side.

ETA: Oh, and a third thing I want-for Florida doctors to be allowed to talk to their patients about guns without fear of fines and imprisonment. Seriously.

banana468 · June 2016

I will say this as someone with limited knowledge of firearms. Most I get from DH who has somewhat limited knowledge himself but at least has experience shooting back from his Boy Scout days.

I'm not a fan of how either side is going about this.

kylexo · June 2016

the Dickie amendment is the worst and should be repealed immediately.

kimmiinthemitten · June 2016

Ugh, so FI this morning tells me there is someone running against our Congressman (who we hate and our district is super gerrymandered which is a whole other thing).

Well, the person running against him is an American born, Indian descent doctor. This man opened up his own surgical center and provides scholarship to people who can't afford their medical care so they can receive the medical attention they received. He's lived in our District his entire life. His FB Ad is full of racist and anti-Muslim sentiment. I'm not even sure I'm going to vote for this guy but what I just saw was disgusting. People make me sick. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but I still am. Especially since your name, face and sometimes job oftentimes accompany a FB post.

kylexo · June 2016

kimmiinthemitten said:

Ugh, so FI this morning tells me there is someone running against our Congressman (who we hate and our district is super gerrymandered which is a whole other thing).

Well, the person running against him is an American born, Indian descent doctor. This man opened up his own surgical center and provides scholarship to people who can't afford their medical care so they can receive the medical attention they received. He's lived in our District his entire life. His FB Ad is full of racist and anti-Muslim sentiment. I'm not even sure I'm going to vote for this guy but what I just saw was disgusting. People make me sick. I know I shouldn't be surprised, but I still am. Especially since your name, face and sometimes job oftentimes accompany a FB post.

my congressman just got in big trouble for creating a website impersonating his competitor and soliciting donations on that site that went to current congressman. he is the absolute worst, but this district is so gerrymandered that he'll prob win again.

monkeysip · June 2016

banana468 said:

I will say this as someone with limited knowledge of firearms. Most I get from DH who has somewhat limited knowledge himself but at least has experience shooting back from his Boy Scout days.

I'm not a fan of how either side is going about this.

Agreed. I mean, from the people I'm exposed to, the pro-gun side is a little bit more vehement about their strict opposition whatever the legislation is, BUT I've also seen some anti-gun people who are so quick to support any gun control idea thrown out that they don't really stop to think about the practicality of it. I want to limit gun violence too, but we do need to make sure that the legislation makes sense. And that's where I think Kimmi was probably right above that all this attempt at legislation is for show.

banana468 · June 2016

My fear is that all of this is for show and posturing in an election year.

The older I get the more I think term limits for Congress make sense.

STARMOON44 · June 2016

banana468 said:

kimmiinthemitten said:

First of all, the Orlando shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS, Hezbollah, and the Taliban (all competing factions) and worked for a company that started as an Israeli Prison Company. I explained that to a level minded friend who does support some crazy stuff on occasion and she was like holy crap, he wasn't a terrorist then. That was my dose of hope humanity that was swept away.

I too too hate the superheroes. Joe Blow with a CPL could stop the shooter when an off duty and armed Orlando cop couldn't. But don't reason with them and explain that witnesses say the club was so dark they could only see the flash from the gun and not the shooter himself, just like in Aurora. And don't tell them about the guy at the Arizona shooting with Gabby Giffords who did have a gun and almost pulled it out and second thought his decision (which was good because he almost pulled it out on the guy who wrestled the gun away from the shooter). And don't get FI started on the people who think all teachers should be armed and trained even when most schools have armed liaison officers nowadays.

You don't like the no fly no buy bill because it violates your right against self incrimination? Okay fine. But can we really not agree on mandatory wait times and background checks so the FBI can investigate them for a couple days before they can walk out with a gun that can kill or injure 102 people?

This is where I am. Can we at least agree that we need to do a better job at checking those who want to buy a gun??

I will say I'm not thrilled with the legislation proposed. Among them are the issues that you don't know when you're on the no fly list or a government surveillance list. And since the government is SO GOOD (eyeroll) at making sure that the people on those lists should be on there, I do think it's not fair to perfectly law abiding citizens to find out that they're on a list for no other reason than an "Ooops. Your names look similar." or even better, "Oh whoa how'd that get there??"

We need to do better. And we also need to do better about proposing laws so the ones that a very divided Senate will vote on have a chance of passing. Otherwise this is an exercise in politics and nothing more.

And let's make sure that we've looked into the merits of the law and why they may not work. We've seen that 3 Strikes laws looked good on paper until they were implemented. Our safety is necessary but so are our rights. Surely we can get people to make sure that both work.

Oh no. Some people might have a bit more of a delay in getting a gun. The horror. Any law that might slightly inconvenience a rich white man (because yup, they're the ones most vocally opposed) must obvi be vetoed. Meanwhile the no fly list has been terrible for anyone brown and middle eastern since it was created and there was no outrage about their rights, and black men are killed by the cops with impunity.

Im over it. Fuck people with guns. Fuck people who think guns are so important we must have everything perfect to regulate them. Fuck people who think the issue is imperfect drafting of proposed legislation. Fuck you, you are the problem. You are why nothing changes.

[ETA: this is a collective "fuck you" to people opposed to gun control legislation, not a personal one about Knotties here. Recognize that we are talking in many cases about ideas and issues and not our personal positions.]

kimmiinthemitten · June 2016

Congressman John Lewis just organized a gun control sit in!

I have to be honest, the bright eyed, naive 18 year old in me really enjoys old fashioned civil disobedience, especially when it's let from a Civil Rights leader. Get it Congressman Lewis!

thisismynickname2 · June 2016

STARMOON44 said:

banana468 said:

kimmiinthemitten said:

First of all, the Orlando shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS, Hezbollah, and the Taliban (all competing factions) and worked for a company that started as an Israeli Prison Company. I explained that to a level minded friend who does support some crazy stuff on occasion and she was like holy crap, he wasn't a terrorist then. That was my dose of hope humanity that was swept away.

I too too hate the superheroes. Joe Blow with a CPL could stop the shooter when an off duty and armed Orlando cop couldn't. But don't reason with them and explain that witnesses say the club was so dark they could only see the flash from the gun and not the shooter himself, just like in Aurora. And don't tell them about the guy at the Arizona shooting with Gabby Giffords who did have a gun and almost pulled it out and second thought his decision (which was good because he almost pulled it out on the guy who wrestled the gun away from the shooter). And don't get FI started on the people who think all teachers should be armed and trained even when most schools have armed liaison officers nowadays.

You don't like the no fly no buy bill because it violates your right against self incrimination? Okay fine. But can we really not agree on mandatory wait times and background checks so the FBI can investigate them for a couple days before they can walk out with a gun that can kill or injure 102 people?

This is where I am. Can we at least agree that we need to do a better job at checking those who want to buy a gun??

I will say I'm not thrilled with the legislation proposed. Among them are the issues that you don't know when you're on the no fly list or a government surveillance list. And since the government is SO GOOD (eyeroll) at making sure that the people on those lists should be on there, I do think it's not fair to perfectly law abiding citizens to find out that they're on a list for no other reason than an "Ooops. Your names look similar." or even better, "Oh whoa how'd that get there??"

We need to do better. And we also need to do better about proposing laws so the ones that a very divided Senate will vote on have a chance of passing. Otherwise this is an exercise in politics and nothing more.

And let's make sure that we've looked into the merits of the law and why they may not work. We've seen that 3 Strikes laws looked good on paper until they were implemented. Our safety is necessary but so are our rights. Surely we can get people to make sure that both work.

Oh no. Some people might have a bit more of a delay in getting a gun. The horror. Any law that might slightly inconvenience a rich white man (because yup, they're the ones most vocally opposed) must obvi be vetoed. Meanwhile the no fly list has been terrible for anyone brown and middle eastern since it was created and there was no outrage about their rights, and black men are killed by the cops with impunity.

Im over it. Fuck people with guns. Fuck people who think guns are so important we must have everything perfect to regulate them. Fuck people who think the issue is imperfect drafting of proposed legislation. Fuck you, you are the problem. You are why nothing changes.

[ETA: this is a collective "fuck you" to people opposed to gun control legislation, not a personal one about Knotties here. Recognize that we are talking in many cases about ideas and issues and not our personal positions.]

I'm just... the pessimistic one over here saying that gun control really doesn't work. [Insert "but it works in x country" here]. I live in Chicago, where the strictest gun control laws do jack squat to quell shootings. If we had better federal gun control instead of state-by-state variances it would certainly help matters.
Gun control is a flimsy band-aid on bigger societal issues in the U.S. (Societal issues that are not rooted in the same veins as in other countries.) The violence in Chicago is a symptom of poverty/gangs/drugs. The Orlando shooter- with that much hate in his heart, if he couldn't get guns, he could have made the same kind of bombs the Boston Marathon guys did. The Columbine kids had bombs. What do we have to do around here to quell violence? That's the question I'd rather focus on, rather than focusing on limiting one tool used for violence.
As a human being, I have a fundamental right to defend myself. The Constitution awards us the ability to bear arms specifically. I read a very interesting opinion piece that a gun is the only thing that can put a potential victim on a level playing field with a would-be criminal. No regular citizen needs military-grade weapons that do the most damage in these horrific attacks. Hunting is a way of life and a sport and there are certain guns for that. I think this whole concept of "gun control" needs to be thoughtful, logical, enforceable, and not infringe on our human right to defend and our government-given right to defend. And let's be honest that it's never going to eliminate violent acts, only change how violent acts are carried out.

MCmeow · June 2016

But we need to try, gun control does work, the statistics are there. Guns in Chicago are purchased from nearby states. People's lives are on the line, why not try something proven to work in other countries?

STARMOON44 · June 2016

thisismynickname said:

STARMOON44 said:

banana468 said:

kimmiinthemitten said:

First of all, the Orlando shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS, Hezbollah, and the Taliban (all competing factions) and worked for a company that started as an Israeli Prison Company. I explained that to a level minded friend who does support some crazy stuff on occasion and she was like holy crap, he wasn't a terrorist then. That was my dose of hope humanity that was swept away.

I too too hate the superheroes. Joe Blow with a CPL could stop the shooter when an off duty and armed Orlando cop couldn't. But don't reason with them and explain that witnesses say the club was so dark they could only see the flash from the gun and not the shooter himself, just like in Aurora. And don't tell them about the guy at the Arizona shooting with Gabby Giffords who did have a gun and almost pulled it out and second thought his decision (which was good because he almost pulled it out on the guy who wrestled the gun away from the shooter). And don't get FI started on the people who think all teachers should be armed and trained even when most schools have armed liaison officers nowadays.

You don't like the no fly no buy bill because it violates your right against self incrimination? Okay fine. But can we really not agree on mandatory wait times and background checks so the FBI can investigate them for a couple days before they can walk out with a gun that can kill or injure 102 people?

This is where I am. Can we at least agree that we need to do a better job at checking those who want to buy a gun??

I will say I'm not thrilled with the legislation proposed. Among them are the issues that you don't know when you're on the no fly list or a government surveillance list. And since the government is SO GOOD (eyeroll) at making sure that the people on those lists should be on there, I do think it's not fair to perfectly law abiding citizens to find out that they're on a list for no other reason than an "Ooops. Your names look similar." or even better, "Oh whoa how'd that get there??"

We need to do better. And we also need to do better about proposing laws so the ones that a very divided Senate will vote on have a chance of passing. Otherwise this is an exercise in politics and nothing more.

And let's make sure that we've looked into the merits of the law and why they may not work. We've seen that 3 Strikes laws looked good on paper until they were implemented. Our safety is necessary but so are our rights. Surely we can get people to make sure that both work.

Oh no. Some people might have a bit more of a delay in getting a gun. The horror. Any law that might slightly inconvenience a rich white man (because yup, they're the ones most vocally opposed) must obvi be vetoed. Meanwhile the no fly list has been terrible for anyone brown and middle eastern since it was created and there was no outrage about their rights, and black men are killed by the cops with impunity.

Im over it. Fuck people with guns. Fuck people who think guns are so important we must have everything perfect to regulate them. Fuck people who think the issue is imperfect drafting of proposed legislation. Fuck you, you are the problem. You are why nothing changes.

[ETA: this is a collective "fuck you" to people opposed to gun control legislation, not a personal one about Knotties here. Recognize that we are talking in many cases about ideas and issues and not our personal positions.]

I'm just... the pessimistic one over here saying that gun control really doesn't work. [Insert "but it works in x country" here]. I live in Chicago, where the strictest gun control laws do jack squat to quell shootings. If we had better federal gun control instead of state-by-state variances it would certainly help matters.
Gun control is a flimsy band-aid on bigger societal issues in the U.S. (Societal issues that are not rooted in the same veins as in other countries.) The violence in Chicago is a symptom of poverty/gangs/drugs. The Orlando shooter- with that much hate in his heart, if he couldn't get guns, he could have made the same kind of bombs the Boston Marathon guys did. The Columbine kids had bombs. What do we have to do around here to quell violence? That's the question I'd rather focus on, rather than focusing on limiting one tool used for violence.
As a human being, I have a fundamental right to defend myself. The Constitution awards us the ability to bear arms specifically. I read a very interesting opinion piece that a gun is the only thing that can put a potential victim on a level playing field with a would-be criminal. No regular citizen needs military-grade weapons that do the most damage in these horrific attacks. Hunting is a way of life and a sport and there are certain guns for that. I think this whole concept of "gun control" needs to be thoughtful, logical, enforceable, and not infringe on our human right to defend and our government-given right to defend. And let's be honest that it's never going to eliminate violent acts, only change how violent acts are carried out.

False. Australia had all the same issues. They implemented actual gun control and now mass shootings are actually rare. It's entirely possible to do, Americans just don't care about victims of violence enough to put their own idiotic self-interest claims aside.

Absolutely. Let's address hate and violence and poverty and the legacy of generations of apartheid. In the mean time, we can pass gun control laws. They won't solve every issue, but it's a start.

banana468 · June 2016

STARMOON44 said:

banana468 said:

kimmiinthemitten said:

First of all, the Orlando shooter pledged allegiance to ISIS, Hezbollah, and the Taliban (all competing factions) and worked for a company that started as an Israeli Prison Company. I explained that to a level minded friend who does support some crazy stuff on occasion and she was like holy crap, he wasn't a terrorist then. That was my dose of hope humanity that was swept away.

I too too hate the superheroes. Joe Blow with a CPL could stop the shooter when an off duty and armed Orlando cop couldn't. But don't reason with them and explain that witnesses say the club was so dark they could only see the flash from the gun and not the shooter himself, just like in Aurora. And don't tell them about the guy at the Arizona shooting with Gabby Giffords who did have a gun and almost pulled it out and second thought his decision (which was good because he almost pulled it out on the guy who wrestled the gun away from the shooter). And don't get FI started on the people who think all teachers should be armed and trained even when most schools have armed liaison officers nowadays.

You don't like the no fly no buy bill because it violates your right against self incrimination? Okay fine. But can we really not agree on mandatory wait times and background checks so the FBI can investigate them for a couple days before they can walk out with a gun that can kill or injure 102 people?

This is where I am. Can we at least agree that we need to do a better job at checking those who want to buy a gun??

I will say I'm not thrilled with the legislation proposed. Among them are the issues that you don't know when you're on the no fly list or a government surveillance list. And since the government is SO GOOD (eyeroll) at making sure that the people on those lists should be on there, I do think it's not fair to perfectly law abiding citizens to find out that they're on a list for no other reason than an "Ooops. Your names look similar." or even better, "Oh whoa how'd that get there??"

We need to do better. And we also need to do better about proposing laws so the ones that a very divided Senate will vote on have a chance of passing. Otherwise this is an exercise in politics and nothing more.

And let's make sure that we've looked into the merits of the law and why they may not work. We've seen that 3 Strikes laws looked good on paper until they were implemented. Our safety is necessary but so are our rights. Surely we can get people to make sure that both work.

Oh no. Some people might have a bit more of a delay in getting a gun. The horror. Any law that might slightly inconvenience a rich white man (because yup, they're the ones most vocally opposed) must obvi be vetoed. Meanwhile the no fly list has been terrible for anyone brown and middle eastern since it was created and there was no outrage about their rights, and black men are killed by the cops with impunity.

Im over it. Fuck people with guns. Fuck people who think guns are so important we must have everything perfect to regulate them. Fuck people who think the issue is imperfect drafting of proposed legislation. Fuck you, you are the problem. You are why nothing changes.

[ETA: this is a collective "fuck you" to people opposed to gun control legislation, not a personal one about Knotties here. Recognize that we are talking in many cases about ideas and issues and not our personal positions.]

My issue is that these are RIGHTS. And screaming fuck you, you're the problem isn't going to help at all. I get that this is a big vent, but the right to bear arms is pretty huge. So the notion of saying that no one needs a gun doesn't work, goes against the Constitution and it won't get off the floor.

I hear you on the complaining though. My vent to DH was just that on Sunday night while we had an hour in the car. It was something like "You mean to tell me that people are so far up in arms about a possible delay in a gun purchase but they'll still get to have one and these same people are screaming about how we can't let any Muslims in the country??!!? That pretty much sums up the concept of lets create laws that make life more difficult for everyone but us."

STARMOON44 · June 2016

Are they rights? Is there a right to buy a gun without a waiting period? Without a background check? With advanced technology? Without an obligation to store it safely? Without the threat of facing charges for manslaughter when your kid finds it and shoots a friend?

I think there is actually a ton of room to regulate guns constitutionally. And that we should all (if we want effective gun control) be telling the people in our lives who are pro-guns that we hold them responsible for these deaths.

I'm going to put my head through a wall...

Re: I'm going to put my head through a wall...

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