Chit Chat

Fiance vs. Friend Issues (seriously need advice)

I am in serious need of help with a tough situation. Brace for a of long story...

Back in December my close friend/college roommate finally got herself out of her abusive parents' house. She had basically nothing and had decided to drive cross-country to Seattle, where me and some of our other college friends are all living so she could be with people she knew. Since she didn't have enough for an apartment and told me she intended to live in her car, I rallied the house (two other college friends and my now fiance) to help her. We cleared out our breakfast nook to make a "room" for her, told her she could stay with us for free and start paying utilities when she found work. She was so, so happy and grateful to have us helping her. She moved in in January, and we hadn't seen each other since I moved to Seattle.

I have been with my fiance for three years and the two of them have been friends on Facebook for most of that, so they tangentially knew a bit about each other. They each thought the other seemed like a cool person and I was really excited for them to finally meet. My fiance is a very intellectual person who likes having deep and often difficult discussions (one of the things I love about him, as I like these discussions too). As a kid he had an anger problem and learned to deal with it through martial arts discipline. The idea that anger is something you choose, not something that just happens because of another person, is very important to him. Basically, he stops and thinks about his negative emotions before he reacts. (**I want to state here very clearly that he has never, ever been violent or threatened violence towards me in any way, ever and I have never once felt unsafe around him, but when people hear "anger problem" they make all sorts of assumptions**). PNW culture is way, way more blunt than Midwest culture (something I had to adjust to big time when I moved here and started working customer service!), and he is not afraid of stating his opinion or bringing up information he thinks is interesting or useful. He also has a sense of humor dryer than champagne, which he knows sometimes people don't pick up on right away so he's pretty careful to clarify and explain the rougher edges of his personality. My friend has a similar sense of humor and also likes to give her friends an affectionately hard time, so I figured they would pick up on each other's banter in person like they already had over Skype and facebook.

Not long after my friend moved in she started making comments to me about things he said that were upsetting. I'm not talking like, he was making inappropriate comments towards her or telling nasty jokes...things like, when she let us borrow a box of crackers for a party one night, he offered to replace it "too many times", and because she's "not the sort of person who keeps score" and it was offensive to her that he had said it more than once or even offered at all. Or one day out of nowhere when we were having a totally separate discussion, she tells me how sometimes she "wants to punch him in the face" when he talks about politics and economics (again, not that he was saying anything discriminatory or even anything that she herself disagrees with, she just didn't like that he talked about it a lot). I was really taken aback by these things, because I had never known her to be this touchy. I honestly didn't know what to do other than shrug and sort of go, "well, okay?" because they were such odd complaints. Pretty early on the two of them discovered that they have vastly different communication styles; my friend does everything off of her gut reactions, he doesn't. The one thing she said to me about him that seemed actually important was that she told me she sometimes feels as though he's talking down to her. I told her to just let him know. He knows that that can happen sometimes, that he never intends it that way, and that he expects and appreciates being told so he can adjust for that person because everyone has a different idea of what that's like. She told me that talking to him wouldn't help and that she would just deal with it and limit the time she spent around him. Meanwhile, my fiance is telling me that he feels bad because he gets the sense that my friend doesn't like him. So I let him know about her at times feeling talked down to, and ever since he's tried to change the way he interacts with her so she's more comfortable, but he had accepted they would probably never be friends. I was okay with that. It wasn't great, but I could live with it. We got officially engaged on the 10th, I told my friend, she hugged me and said how excited and happy she was.

Then this past Friday while I was at a job interview she exploded on him in the FB thread that all the housemates use to communicate important things about the house (like if someone has guests coming or something breaks etc). One of our other housemates (lets call her HM3) mentioned the toilet wasn't working right and that she hoped it would be fixed soon because she felt gross reaching into the tank. My fiance said he'd contact our landlord ASAP but that the water really was clean and ok to touch. My friend LIT INTO HIM, saying he was invalidating HM3's feelings (HM3 later told me she did not feel invalidated or anything). He told her she didn't have the right to tell him how to interact with other people and that he had already seen to the problem. She lost her shit, calling him an ass, saying that it didn't matter whether or not he meant to make HM3 feel bad and all that mattered was how she (my friend) felt about it, that she had every right to defend her friends, saying this was about her own feelings and that she didn't need to explain them and she didn't care if he thought feelings were a stupid reason to react to something.

He got pretty mad. He told her in no uncertain terms that she didn't get to dictate how the house runs, as she does not pay rent and is not on the lease. He said he did not demean HM3 in any way, that he took care of the problem as soon as he was informed (which he did), and that she had read way more into what he had said than was there. He did not swear at her or call her names, though he confided to me that he had wanted to.

(I know this is long, I'm so sorry...) I see all this when I leave my interview. HM3 texts me to say that my friend has decided she will sleep in her car until we all move at the end of the month. I think this is ridiculous, the whole thing is ridiculous, and HM3 agrees with me. When my fiance gets home the first thing he does is apologize to me because he knows it's put me in a tough spot, but he felt he needed to defend himself. I'd had several hours to think about it by then and I had to agree with him. There were points where I thought he'd been a little harsh, but I do not think he should have just taken it laying down.

With me, my friend tried to act as if nothing had happened. She even asked (via text) to borrow my car on Sunday (I was horribly sick all day on top of being conflicted about everything so I didn't answer). She hasn't asked if I'm ok, she hasn't acknowledged it at all with me. I literally don't know what to do. I keep going from being angry at her to being sad about everything. What makes it so hard is that I know she's been going through a lot of serious emotional stuff, I know she was PMSing like crazy on that day, and I've also watched her go through similar conflicts with previous super close friends. It always ends with her deciding to move out/distance herself as much as possible and there's never been any coming back from that point. I'm also decently sure (because I know her tendencies in these situations) that she's been trashing my fiance to HM3, to his friend's GF (whom she works with at a great job she wouldn't have if it wasn't for my relationship with my fiance), and to her friends back home. Because I've seen her go through this before, I know she's decided she did nothing wrong and that my fiance is just the worst most unreasonable person in the world. Even if on some level she knows she screwed up, that will make her justify her actions even more out of embarrassment. Because she's the one that blew up the situation in the first place and then pretended like everything was fine, I feel like she's trying to force me to choose between her and him and I'm really, really not okay with that. (Ultimately I stand by my fiance, but knowing that makes me feel like the worst friend in the world).

I had wanted her to be in my wedding party. I had already asked her and she had already said of course she would. Now...I don't know. I really don't know what to do. I've tried writing out "letters" to her explaining how I feel about all this and I still don't know! I feel like this isn't my problem to solve for her, I feel like she put her issues entirely onto me so she wouldn't have to just talk to my fiance like an adult, like I asked her to in the first place.

I'm sure this has come up with people before, but I've never had a problem like this and all the advice I seem to find is for either the friend or the fiance, not for the one stuck in the middle. :'(


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Re: Fiance vs. Friend Issues (seriously need advice)

  • I am in serious need of help with a tough situation. Brace for a of long story...

    Back in December my close friend/college roommate finally got herself out of her abusive parents' house. She had basically nothing and had decided to drive cross-country to Seattle, where me and some of our other college friends are all living so she could be with people she knew. Since she didn't have enough for an apartment and told me she intended to live in her car, I rallied the house (two other college friends and my now fiance) to help her. We cleared out our breakfast nook to make a "room" for her, told her she could stay with us for free and start paying utilities when she found work. She was so, so happy and grateful to have us helping her. She moved in in January, and we hadn't seen each other since I moved to Seattle.

    I have been with my fiance for three years and the two of them have been friends on Facebook for most of that, so they tangentially knew a bit about each other. They each thought the other seemed like a cool person and I was really excited for them to finally meet. My fiance is a very intellectual person who likes having deep and often difficult discussions (one of the things I love about him, as I like these discussions too). As a kid he had an anger problem and learned to deal with it through martial arts discipline. The idea that anger is something you choose, not something that just happens because of another person, is very important to him. Basically, he stops and thinks about his negative emotions before he reacts. (**I want to state here very clearly that he has never, ever been violent or threatened violence towards me in any way, ever and I have never once felt unsafe around him, but when people hear "anger problem" they make all sorts of assumptions**). PNW culture is way, way more blunt than Midwest culture (something I had to adjust to big time when I moved here and started working customer service!), and he is not afraid of stating his opinion or bringing up information he thinks is interesting or useful. He also has a sense of humor dryer than champagne, which he knows sometimes people don't pick up on right away so he's pretty careful to clarify and explain the rougher edges of his personality. My friend has a similar sense of humor and also likes to give her friends an affectionately hard time, so I figured they would pick up on each other's banter in person like they already had over Skype and facebook.

    Not long after my friend moved in she started making comments to me about things he said that were upsetting. I'm not talking like, he was making inappropriate comments towards her or telling nasty jokes...things like, when she let us borrow a box of crackers for a party one night, he offered to replace it "too many times", and because she's "not the sort of person who keeps score" and it was offensive to her that he had said it more than once or even offered at all. Or one day out of nowhere when we were having a totally separate discussion, she tells me how sometimes she "wants to punch him in the face" when he talks about politics and economics (again, not that he was saying anything discriminatory or even anything that she herself disagrees with, she just didn't like that he talked about it a lot). I was really taken aback by these things, because I had never known her to be this touchy. I honestly didn't know what to do other than shrug and sort of go, "well, okay?" because they were such odd complaints. Pretty early on the two of them discovered that they have vastly different communication styles; my friend does everything off of her gut reactions, he doesn't. The one thing she said to me about him that seemed actually important was that she told me she sometimes feels as though he's talking down to her. I told her to just let him know. He knows that that can happen sometimes, that he never intends it that way, and that he expects and appreciates being told so he can adjust for that person because everyone has a different idea of what that's like. She told me that talking to him wouldn't help and that she would just deal with it and limit the time she spent around him. Meanwhile, my fiance is telling me that he feels bad because he gets the sense that my friend doesn't like him. So I let him know about her at times feeling talked down to, and ever since he's tried to change the way he interacts with her so she's more comfortable, but he had accepted they would probably never be friends. I was okay with that. It wasn't great, but I could live with it. We got officially engaged on the 10th, I told my friend, she hugged me and said how excited and happy she was.

    Then this past Friday while I was at a job interview she exploded on him in the FB thread that all the housemates use to communicate important things about the house (like if someone has guests coming or something breaks etc). One of our other housemates (lets call her HM3) mentioned the toilet wasn't working right and that she hoped it would be fixed soon because she felt gross reaching into the tank. My fiance said he'd contact our landlord ASAP but that the water really was clean and ok to touch. My friend LIT INTO HIM, saying he was invalidating HM3's feelings (HM3 later told me she did not feel invalidated or anything). He told her she didn't have the right to tell him how to interact with other people and that he had already seen to the problem. She lost her shit, calling him an ass, saying that it didn't matter whether or not he meant to make HM3 feel bad and all that mattered was how she (my friend) felt about it, that she had every right to defend her friends, saying this was about her own feelings and that she didn't need to explain them and she didn't care if he thought feelings were a stupid reason to react to something.

    He got pretty mad. He told her in no uncertain terms that she didn't get to dictate how the house runs, as she does not pay rent and is not on the lease. He said he did not demean HM3 in any way, that he took care of the problem as soon as he was informed (which he did), and that she had read way more into what he had said than was there. He did not swear at her or call her names, though he confided to me that he had wanted to.

    (I know this is long, I'm so sorry...) I see all this when I leave my interview. HM3 texts me to say that my friend has decided she will sleep in her car until we all move at the end of the month. I think this is ridiculous, the whole thing is ridiculous, and HM3 agrees with me. When my fiance gets home the first thing he does is apologize to me because he knows it's put me in a tough spot, but he felt he needed to defend himself. I'd had several hours to think about it by then and I had to agree with him. There were points where I thought he'd been a little harsh, but I do not think he should have just taken it laying down.

    With me, my friend tried to act as if nothing had happened. She even asked (via text) to borrow my car on Sunday (I was horribly sick all day on top of being conflicted about everything so I didn't answer). She hasn't asked if I'm ok, she hasn't acknowledged it at all with me. I literally don't know what to do. I keep going from being angry at her to being sad about everything. What makes it so hard is that I know she's been going through a lot of serious emotional stuff, I know she was PMSing like crazy on that day, and I've also watched her go through similar conflicts with previous super close friends. It always ends with her deciding to move out/distance herself as much as possible and there's never been any coming back from that point. I'm also decently sure (because I know her tendencies in these situations) that she's been trashing my fiance to HM3, to his friend's GF (whom she works with at a great job she wouldn't have if it wasn't for my relationship with my fiance), and to her friends back home. Because I've seen her go through this before, I know she's decided she did nothing wrong and that my fiance is just the worst most unreasonable person in the world. Even if on some level she knows she screwed up, that will make her justify her actions even more out of embarrassment. Because she's the one that blew up the situation in the first place and then pretended like everything was fine, I feel like she's trying to force me to choose between her and him and I'm really, really not okay with that. (Ultimately I stand by my fiance, but knowing that makes me feel like the worst friend in the world).

    I had wanted her to be in my wedding party. I had already asked her and she had already said of course she would. Now...I don't know. I really don't know what to do. I've tried writing out "letters" to her explaining how I feel about all this and I still don't know! I feel like this isn't my problem to solve for her, I feel like she put her issues entirely onto me so she wouldn't have to just talk to my fiance like an adult, like I asked her to in the first place.

    I'm sure this has come up with people before, but I've never had a problem like this and all the advice I seem to find is for either the friend or the fiance, not for the one stuck in the middle. :'(


    Take your wedding out of the equation and work on the friendship.   
  • Damn. @SilverSeaHorse that's quite a situation!

    To give some advice I would like a bit more information if you don't mind? 
    Did I read somewhere that you will all be parting ways when the lease is up? When will that be? 

    She moved in during the month of December, is still living with you and does not contribute anything financially to the flat? 
  • edited July 2016
    Yes, @Greenjinjo we will all be moving at the end of this month, which was decided a long time ago for financial and pet reasons. My fiance and myself will be moving to a place together, the other 3 will be moving to a place together closer to the city.

    She got here in January and our agreement was she would start paying 1/5th of utilities when she found work and she's been doing that. Fiance is such a stickler about legalities with things like this because we just left a housing situation last year where we took in someone else who was in a tough spot and she ended up causing all sorts of problems just like this and he ended up having to mediate all of it. So he was understandably nervous about doing it again and I vouched for my friend that she was a reasonable, adult person who would talk things over before doing something like this. So I feel kind of shocked and let down, too.

    @holyguacamole79 I'm less concerned for wedding logistics and more concerned with whether or not I can handle maintaining a friendship with someone when I feel like I can't refer to my literal partner in life when I'm around her. I don't know if keeping them separate (which is what I'm afraid it would come down to) is really doable for me.
  • @SilverSeaHorse thank goodness the end of the month isn't far away. It will be good to have some time where you aren't living under the same roof and can have a think about this friendship and whether or not it has a future. If I was in your situation I would probably try and talk with her about this and let her know how I felt. Would this be something that you would be willing to do? 
  • @Greenjinjo I do want to do that, I'm just getting my thoughts together and deciding on when. I have to do it in writing, since I have that annoying thing where my throat closes up when I try to have serious intense discussions like this and I just end up hyperventilating (Yay for my over-anxious brain) and that's not productive at all.
  • There's nothing saying that your friend and your FI have to be friends with each other, or even like each other. However, considering how generous you have all been to this friend, I think she could be making a lot more effort to get along with your FI and not nitpick every single thing he says. I'm sorry to have to say it, but at this point, you need to seriously think about whether this is a friendship you want to continue at all, living together or not. Talk to her and try to work this out if you want, but honestly, if you soon won't be living together, it wouldn't be unreasonable to end the friendship or let it just fade out at that point. I understand not wanting her in the BP, but don't make any decisions on that until you've decided whether you can save this friendship or not, because there won't be any going back once you've asked her to "step down."

    Your friend has been through a lot in her life, and that's unfortunate. However, that does not give her the right to take advantage of you or make your FI uncomfortable in his own home. You've done your best to help her out and get back on her feet; now it's time to look out for yourself.
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  • Your FI isn't blameless in this.   At minimum, he sounds like he has a difficult personality that can be hard to deal with.    You may be fine with this but it sounds like he operates in a black and white world and has not validated the feelings of others.   That they haven't been YOUR feelings yet tells me that you may want to talk to him about this.

    However, your friend also seems to be a difficult person if she's going to fly off the handle.   Frankly, I think you need to draft a living arrangement that makes sense.   That she's living there rent free is going to be tough on anyone.   Hell, marriages have issues when an in-law moves in.   You have an adult living in your place and that's going to cause stress.   

    Work on the friendship first but I think it's time for girlfriend to find her own place. 
  • I agree wholeheartedly with LondonLisa. Your friend came from an abusive situation, and I'm no psychologist but I could understand being sensitive after that. Your FI has a personality that some may find hard to deal with. Not everyone is Mr. and Ms. Charisma Popular, so it sounds like a clash here is unfortunate and yet not entirely out of left field. 

    And I disagree with Starmoon that OP is trying too hard to justify his personality. I recently went through a workshop at my job that was entirely about personality types and how they clash and how to adjust behavior in the presence of other types in the name of teamwork and harmony. The dude does take care to adjust in the presence of others; that's better than just being all #sorrynotsorry.

    Anyway, sounds like you're all moving out and away from each other anyway. She doesn't need to love or even like your fiance to stand up for you in your wedding (though obviously it's preferable). Work on the friendship and let the cards fall where they may. 
    ________________________________


  • It was nice of you to help your friend, but now you're trying to save her.  She chose to accept your offer, and now she has decided she no longer wants to.  Let her.  However, as a friend I'd suggest she find counseling to help her navigate her newfound independence and freedom.  It's important to remember that people who leave abusive situations do not react or communicate the same as people who don't, especially when the abuse was parental (and I'm assuming life long).   Counseling will help her with that in time but that's not for anyone else to determine (you and your FI including).

    Step back, stop playing referee between your FI and your friend and let grown adults manage themselves.
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  •  It seems some folks have made the same assumptions as my friend. Someone who has a different relationship to their own emotions, a more reserved and reflective relationship to them, is not automatically "emotionless", nor does it mean they don't care about the feelings of others. I've been accused of the same things myself because I'm very introverted and don't express my feelings in the instant that I feel them. I said he had an anger problem in childhood that he learned to deal with in a responsible way; that does not mean he is now an angry adult man or that he's an inherently dangerous/bad/abusive person who refuses to consider anyone else's feelings. He's a person who knows his own faults and takes full responsibility for them. I greatly admire that. We have been very open with each other about our respective blind spots and less-than-awesome tendencies and how we both try to be aware of them in ourselves because neither of us want to end up hurting the other.

    I am absolutely "allowed" to be angry at him; I just rarely am. When it does happen, I am entirely comfortable discussing it with him. He has never belittled me or implied in any way that my feelings are invalid. My feelings are a huge priority for him and he takes incredible emotional care of me. He does not threaten people, verbally or physically. I brought up his martial arts training precisely because it is about not doing those things and that philosophy is very important to him. It's something that had a major effect on who he is, just like my friend's abusive household had a major effect on who she is. I have never felt any need to explain him to anyone until my friend moved in and started making comments about odd things like how offensive it was that he offered to replace a thing she let us use. Yes, I said he can come across as blunt at times. I also said this is, in part, a cultural thing, and he is aware of this and does his best to clarify himself (Example: both sides of his family have zero qualms about getting into heated discussions at dinner and that is a thing Midwestern families avoid like the plague. That doesn't make one cultural tendency better or worse than the other, just different). It's precisely because he recognizes that everyone is different that he is so willing to change his own actions for others, but at the same time he should not have to always be the only one doing all the adapting and in this situation he was the only one making any effort to be understanding of the other person. That really doe shave to go both ways. He is also aware that 99% of the time, people figure out his manner of speech and sense of humor on their own after a short period of time (he knows this because he has been told by those people). So this situation with my friend is actually very out of the ordinary. (Even the previous non-lease flatmate who caused issues in the house and whom he had to be very stern/harsh with about all of it still considers him a friend).

    Miscommunications between people don't make either party a bad person. I find myself getting really annoyed with my fiance's best friend at times. We're both writers and we have very differing opinions on certain story topics, I even think he doesn't quite "get it" when it comes to representation which is very important to me. He comes across as majorly pretentious a lot of the time. But he is ultimately a good, dependable guy who cares about his friends and his partners and he's still that person even when I'm personally irritated with him.

    @LondonLisa You hit a lot of nails squarely on their heads, I think. I don't want to say my friend is a freeloader because that feels very ungenerous towards her and unlike our previous non-lease flatmate she does contribute in other ways, like with cleaning up. She didn't actually start sleeping in her car, and I knew she wouldn't. It was just an empty threat. I really like the response you wrote out and it's actually pretty similar to what I wrote up myself last night. I'm just not sure if I want to wait until we all move to handle it. It would be another 10 days of awkwardness in the house and I really hate awkwardness. I also keep feeling bad for not having said anything about it yet.

    I just want to say, I really appreciate all the advice from everyone. I guess I've been lucky that this sort of thing hasn't come up for me much in 28 years of living, and it was new scary territory, so thanks!


  • You can't handle 10 days of awkwardness? If that's all we are talking about I'd just let it go. And in the future think really hard about whether and for how long you can open your home to people. Sometimes I think the impulse to be generous leads to resentment on both sides. 
  • edited July 2016
    You say multiple times she was gonna sleep in her car, so why did she ask to borrow your car? Also, How old is everyone involved? It's literally high school drama. Who cares if shes talking smack about him. She doesn't have to like him just because you are engaged to him. You gotta take in account that she came from an abusive home so the things your fiance does could be trigger points for her. I'm not excusing her behavior, I'm just giving you something to think about. Also, from what I read it seems to me you tried to force them to be friends. BIG relationship no no! I've never forced my husband to be friends with any of my friends he didn't like and vice versa. You can have a relationship without your S/O being friends with your friends, the key is that your friends and your S/O are cordial. As for this, I simply wouldn't keep subjecting my friend to my fiance though it is tough since they live together.

    No offense but it DOES seem like your fiance can be hard to deal with at times. I have to agree with Starmoon on that one. You say this sort of thing has happened before, once is definitely a fluke. A second time? Not so much. Sounds like there are character flaws that need to be worked on. It's not okay to say she doesn't pay rent therefore doesn't get a say in anything since you ALL AGREED collectively that she would only be charged utilities. Don't be that person who throws things in people's faces (i.e she wouldn't have that job if it weren't for him blah blah blah you don't pay rent etc etc etc).
  • You say multiple times she was gonna sleep in her car, so why did she ask to borrow your car? Also, How old is everyone involved? It's literally high school drama. Who cares if shes talking smack about him. She doesn't have to like him just because you are engaged to him. You gotta take in account that she came from an abusive home so the things your fiance does could be trigger points for her. I'm not excusing her behavior, I'm just giving you something to think about. Also, from what I read it seems to me you tried to force them to be friends. BIG relationship no no! I've never forced my husband to be friends with any of my friends he didn't like and vice versa. You can have a relationship without your S/O being friends with your friends, the key is that your friends and your S/O are cordial. As for this, I simply wouldn't keep subjecting my friend to my fiance though it is tough since they live together.

    No offense but it DOES seem like your fiance can be hard to deal with at times. I have to agree with Starmoon on that one. You say this sort of thing has happened before, once is definitely a fluke. A second time? Not so much. Sounds like there are character flaws that need to be worked on. It's not okay to say she doesn't pay rent therefore doesn't get a say in anything since you ALL AGREED collectively that she would only be charged utilities. Don't be that person who throws things in people's faces (i.e she wouldn't have that job if it weren't for him blah blah blah you don't pay rent etc etc etc).
    I didn't get that sense at all from the OP.  Sure, she hoped they would be friends, but it wasn't like she was sitting them down for game night every day in order to force them to be close. Plus, once she realized they weren't going to be friends, she let bygones be bygones. And I'm sorry, if you only pay utilities, and you have the ability to pay for rent or get another job to help pay for rent, it's not exactly out of line to draw boundaries on what you can and can't do as a flatmate.  That's not throwing it in any one's face.  That's just adulting.  It was meant to be a temporary fix to a critical problem.  The problem is no longer critical.  Friend can move out.  Friend can afford to pay rent now.  Friend sounds like she has a lot of unresolved issues stemming from abuse.  

    OP, I don't think your FI was out of line.  I agree with everything LondonLisa said (which was said much more eloquently).  Also, if the same situation happened to me, I literally would have said exactly what your FI did. "Damn.  Okay, I'll call the landlord.  The tank water is safe to touch though.  It's clean water.  I mean, I wouldn't drink it, but you're fine to reach in and reset the latch."  


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  • SP29SP29 member
    Sixth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    You say multiple times she was gonna sleep in her car, so why did she ask to borrow your car? Also, How old is everyone involved? It's literally high school drama. Who cares if shes talking smack about him. She doesn't have to like him just because you are engaged to him. You gotta take in account that she came from an abusive home so the things your fiance does could be trigger points for her. I'm not excusing her behavior, I'm just giving you something to think about. Also, from what I read it seems to me you tried to force them to be friends. BIG relationship no no! I've never forced my husband to be friends with any of my friends he didn't like and vice versa. You can have a relationship without your S/O being friends with your friends, the key is that your friends and your S/O are cordial. As for this, I simply wouldn't keep subjecting my friend to my fiance though it is tough since they live together.

    No offense but it DOES seem like your fiance can be hard to deal with at times. I have to agree with Starmoon on that one. You say this sort of thing has happened before, once is definitely a fluke. A second time? Not so much. Sounds like there are character flaws that need to be worked on. It's not okay to say she doesn't pay rent therefore doesn't get a say in anything since you ALL AGREED collectively that she would only be charged utilities. Don't be that person who throws things in people's faces (i.e she wouldn't have that job if it weren't for him blah blah blah you don't pay rent etc etc etc).
    But what do we always say on here: "he who pays has a say". Yes, it was agreed that she would only pay utilities as a favour to a friend in a pinch, but if you aren't paying rent, you hardly have a leg to stand on to be dictating the dynamic of a previously functioning flat share . And what do we always follow up with: if you don't like the terms of the money being given (rent-free accommodation) you are free to not accept it and downsize to spend your own money (move out). 

    Complaining about personality clashes when you are getting rent-free living instead of just moving out is bratty and entitled! 


    Yup. Friend came into the group as a favour. The group wasn't looking for a roommate. No, they shouldn't throw the arrangement in her face but I don't think friend has the same weight in the running of the household; she should eventually be moving out. It's almost August and friend came in January, I would expect her to start making her own arrangements or fully committing to thr household, if that is an option. Of course this is something that needs to be openly discussed. 

    OP - my DH has a similar personality type. Factual and blunt. Sometimes I will discreetly caution him - think about how that sounds to that person. Or why is that necessary to bring up. Sometimes the delivery is off, but it's not wrong or mean. 


  • I also think your FI sounds like he was pretty much totally in the right- I don't know where others are getting a bullying or "man-splain-y" vibe (not to get all #NotAllMen here but can a man literally not explain something without being accused of this?). I never knew that toilet water was clean to touch either! I mean you can "feel" like it's gross to touch all you want but that doesn't make it true and I don't think we should overly pander to people who want to feel a certain way about a factual truth.

    Anyway my question is, where is HM3 in all this? Why aren't they standing up to your friend and plainly stating they didn't take offense to your FI's comment and friend shouldn't have either? I feel that would have nipped a lot of this in the bud.
  • @Greenjinjo I do want to do that, I'm just getting my thoughts together and deciding on when. I have to do it in writing, since I have that annoying thing where my throat closes up when I try to have serious intense discussions like this and I just end up hyperventilating (Yay for my over-anxious brain) and that's not productive at all.
    I understand not wanting to do that, but the longer you wait, the harder/more awkward/ less helpful that conversation will be.  It then starts to turn into a "why didn't you talk to me about this sooner" thing.  

    One of the themes you will see a lot on these boards for many different situations, is people waiting until something else happens to have a tough conversation.  Over and over again you see this lead to bigger problems.  

    I totally get being anxious about a tough conversation.  In this situation though, it's time to bite the bullet, realize what you say and how you say may not be perfect, but address the elephant in the room.  you WILL start to feel better once you've talked to her and the stress is off your chest.
  • @Greenjinjo I do want to do that, I'm just getting my thoughts together and deciding on when. I have to do it in writing, since I have that annoying thing where my throat closes up when I try to have serious intense discussions like this and I just end up hyperventilating (Yay for my over-anxious brain) and that's not productive at all.
    I understand not wanting to do that, but the longer you wait, the harder/more awkward/ less helpful that conversation will be.  It then starts to turn into a "why didn't you talk to me about this sooner" thing.  

    One of the themes you will see a lot on these boards for many different situations, is people waiting until something else happens to have a tough conversation.  Over and over again you see this lead to bigger problems.  

    I totally get being anxious about a tough conversation.  In this situation though, it's time to bite the bullet, realize what you say and how you say may not be perfect, but address the elephant in the room.  you WILL start to feel better once you've talked to her and the stress is off your chest.
    I agree, it would be better to deal with it now in whatever way OP wants to deal with it. I imagine it already feels very awkward, at least to OP, around the house. Letting it fester further only makes it harder to talk about later. 

    I also did wonder how old everyone is. I know when I was younger (college age or so) personality clashes were something I didn't really know how to let go of. I lost friendships in some cases that didn't need to be lost because of this. Now I take a longer view and decide whether a friendship is worth maintaining even if we have some personality differences. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not, either way it doesn't have to be dramatic. 

    It seems to me your friend was wrong for reacting so strongly but I also can easily imagine that she feels sensitive to some aspects of your FI's personality and that the reaction was an automatic one for her. I can also see how your FI would be irritated being criticized in that way by her but he also probably should have not reacted that way on the group discussion. 
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  • I also think your FI sounds like he was pretty much totally in the right- I don't know where others are getting a bullying or "man-splain-y" vibe (not to get all #NotAllMen here but can a man literally not explain something without being accused of this?). I never knew that toilet water was clean to touch either! I mean you can "feel" like it's gross to touch all you want but that doesn't make it true and I don't think we should overly pander to people who want to feel a certain way about a factual truth.

    Anyway my question is, where is HM3 in all this? Why aren't they standing up to your friend and plainly stating they didn't take offense to your FI's comment and friend shouldn't have either? I feel that would have nipped a lot of this in the bud.
    I won't speak for anyone else, but the fact that OP spent several paragraphs explaining that the FI is not angry, or violent, or would never blah blah piqued my attention. It's a little methinks thou doth protest too much.

    Based on what OP said, it doesn't sound like he did anything wrong. But coupled with all that foundation, I can't help but wonder if there's some bias in the story. But the friend reminds me of my freeloading SIL, so I'm still team FI. 
  • I also think your FI sounds like he was pretty much totally in the right- I don't know where others are getting a bullying or "man-splain-y" vibe (not to get all #NotAllMen here but can a man literally not explain something without being accused of this?). I never knew that toilet water was clean to touch either! I mean you can "feel" like it's gross to touch all you want but that doesn't make it true and I don't think we should overly pander to people who want to feel a certain way about a factual truth.

    Anyway my question is, where is HM3 in all this? Why aren't they standing up to your friend and plainly stating they didn't take offense to your FI's comment and friend shouldn't have either? I feel that would have nipped a lot of this in the bud.
    I won't speak for anyone else, but the fact that OP spent several paragraphs explaining that the FI is not angry, or violent, or would never blah blah piqued my attention. It's a little methinks thou doth protest too much.

    Based on what OP said, it doesn't sound like he did anything wrong. But coupled with all that foundation, I can't help but wonder if there's some bias in the story. But the friend reminds me of my freeloading SIL, so I'm still team FI. 
    Yeah I honestly think that's reading too much into OP's description... IMO she was trying to convey something about his personality that was relevant to this "personality clash" and added a bunch of extra assurances to avoid people jumping to the conclusion he's an abusive asshole just because he isn't super emotional (she's not wrong, btw- people here are quick to cry "red flag" in my experience). Also OP just seems kind of verbose in general :P. But that's just my take on it.
  • Idk, when I date guys who aren't borderline abusive aggressive jerks with anger problems I spend zero time explaining how they never hit. Just struck me as suspicious. 
  • Idk, when I date guys who aren't borderline abusive aggressive jerks with anger problems I spend zero time explaining how they never hit. Just struck me as suspicious. 
    But you've been an active member of this community for a while. OP hasn't. I just took it as she was painting a picture of someone she knows can be difficult to communicate with both because of personality but also because of regional differences in culture. 
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  • edited July 2016
    It's not bratty or entitled to put your two cents into a situation. Their agreement was she was to pay utilities, she's not paying the rent but she IS putting money into the house. Just because a person is given a place to stay rent free does not mean they are a freeloader or that they should be treated negatively or harassed simply because it was free. They were nearing the end of the lease, she's moving in with HM3 (as I understand it yeah?). Bottom line, it is never okay to throw things in people's faces. How do you know she wasn't saving her money for her move in August? Again, giving a gift and throwing it in someones face is never cool. They let her live there rent free, she is still a tenant by law. I'm sure she's receiving mail there which would make her a resident of that house. That's just bully behavior to say you don't get a say so, especially since she's putting some sort of money into the house. Let's stop skipping that part. 

    @STARMOON44 I agree. Taking time to explain that he "used" to have anger issues as a child is irrelevant. OP really didn't have to explain anything to us. It's almost as if OP wanted us to be biased like her. Yes, OP IS bias. I wouldn't expect her to not be. You're always supposed to have your s/o's back but you also should be able to coach them on why or how they are wrong. You're supposed to build your spouse UP. Not enable cruddy behavior.  Not saying he was in the wrong but he definitely was not right and neither was her friend. 

    Frankly, we can only evaluate from what we're told so that's that. Everyone agree to disagree!
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