Wedding Etiquette Forum

EDIT: What does the label "wedding" mean to you?

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Re: EDIT: What does the label "wedding" mean to you?







  • But how is this any different than people who get married at the courthouse before a DW because it's easier? Most couples who do it don't combine finances, change names etc beforehand their DW, they just don't want to deal with the hassle. 


    They're married because if the religious ceremony didn't place, they're have to get divorced. Also, god forbid, let's say an accident happened. Would one of them turn back in the life insurance money as they weren't 'really' married?

    I just don't think being religious gives you an excuse to have a different set of rules apply to you. During a court house marriage, you gave to say things like 'I take you to be my wife, from this day forth etc etc'. It doesn't say ' I take you to be my wife 6 months from now at our religious ceremony'. Because if they don't consider those real vows, they lied and committed fraud, as the didn't intend to live as a married couple, and that can hardly be considered a Christian Value. 


    Because they didn't do it because it was easier, and they didn't do it because it would be a hassle to do it at the PPD. They got married in their hometown in the US. It would have been just as easy to do it at their religious wedding. I'm pretty sure they didn't have life insurance, but if they did, yea, they probably would have given it back. 

    They fully knew knew they were getting legally married, and I wouldn't say they didn't consider them to be real.






  • Ridiculous. No special religious snowflakes, you don't get a pass on a PPD because you decided to get married legally but didn't really mean it. Such nonsense. 












  • Uh you get your earnest money back if the deal falls apart, for whatever reason. So no, not the same thing at all. 

    ETA: let me rephrase - maybe not for *whatever* reason, but you do get that money back. If you don't, you made a shitty contract that your agent should have warned you about. 


    If you don't get it back, it's because you broke a term of the contract. (Yes, it's your responsibility to be sure a good contract is in place, but people do break decent contracts and lose their earnest money, deservedly.) I imagine you don't break a betrothal unless something analogous happens. Really, I think getting legally married is a stupid way to try to accomplish what they wanted, but hey, I see how they thought it was the closest thing.

    If you guys want to side-eye what you consider a PPD because you think of marriage as a different thing than they do, then as I said above, that's fine. You don't have to give them a pass. But they definitely think differently about what the legal marriage means than you do, and they're not being underhanded or insincere in their belief. So we can't imply that it's somehow dishonest. If the legal requirements for legal marriage in the state involve sex, living together, combining finances, etc, then it's fraud, but otherwise no, I don't think so.






  • But how is this any different than people who get married at the courthouse before a DW because it's easier? Most couples who do it don't combine finances, change names etc beforehand their DW, they just don't want to deal with the hassle. 

    They're married because if the religious ceremony didn't place, they're have to get divorced. Also, god forbid, let's say an accident happened. Would one of them turn back in the life insurance money as they weren't 'really' married?

    I just don't think being religious gives you an excuse to have a different set of rules apply to you. During a court house marriage, you gave to say things like 'I take you to be my wife, from this day forth etc etc'. It doesn't say ' I take you to be my wife 6 months from now at our religious ceremony'. Because if they don't consider those real vows, they lied and committed fraud, as the didn't intend to live as a married couple, and that can hardly be considered a Christian Value. 


    I imagine that's half the point in these kinds of ultra-religious, anachronistic arrangements. The woman in this case wouldn't have life insurance, but the man would. If anything happened to her, he could easily marry someone else, but if anything happened to her, she would no longer be "pure" and get insurance money in order to help take care of her in case she couldn't marry. At least I assume so...It sounds vaguely Austenean and right up there with the kind of stories people tell about "old traditions" of marriage.

    Of course, that's exactly why I agree with @LondonLisa that no women should be supporting this kind of behavior. I would side-eye this kind of ultra-religious arrangement a lot more than someone just being self-centered enough to have a PPD, because at least the PPD isn't tied to such extreme systemic sexism.




  • I imagine that's half the point in these kinds of ultra-religious, anachronistic arrangements. The woman in this case wouldn't have life insurance, but the man would. If anything happened to her, he could easily marry someone else, but if anything happened to her, she would no longer be "pure" and get insurance money in order to help take care of her in case she couldn't marry. At least I assume so...It sounds vaguely Austenean and right up there with the kind of stories people tell about "old traditions" of marriage.

    Of course, that's exactly why I agree with @LondonLisa that no women should be supporting this kind of behavior. I would side-eye this kind of ultra-religious arrangement a lot more than someone just being self-centered enough to have a PPD, because at least the PPD isn't tied to such extreme systemic sexism.


    Where was that said/how do we know the bolded? I must have missed it.

    Assuming stuff like this, though, is the same way we get people saying that Muslim women who choose to veil themselves in some way are oppressed, when that's not actually how it works. I try to stay away from assuming that there's an inherent power structure like that unless I actually do know the details of the belief.
  • We'll just have to agree to disagree. I see it as different. While I may think it's silly, I do not think it is anywhere on the same level as someone getting married ahead of time and keeping it a secret so they can reap benefits sooner than it takes to plan a wedding. 




  • Where was that said/how do we know the bolded? I must have missed it.

    Assuming stuff like this, though, is the same way we get people saying that Muslim women who choose to veil themselves in some way are oppressed, when that's not actually how it works. I try to stay away from assuming that there's an inherent power structure like that unless I actually do know the details of the belief.


    flantastic, I was quoting this from @LondonLisa
    (I think? So many quotes to follow up!!):

    "They're married because if the religious ceremony didn't place, they're have to get divorced. Also, god forbid, let's say an accident happened. Would one of them turn back in the life insurance money as they weren't 'really' married?"
  • I think this is getting taken to the extremes and admittedly I'm PPD-light; it just doesn't bother me all that much (and before anyone says it, I know I differ from etiquette, not trying to say my opinion is etiquette). 

    But it really if someone holds non-majoritarian religious views, but society and the government has determined a legal standard for marriage that is different than the religious practices the couple lives out, is there really not an exception to the rule? 



  • I think this is getting taken to the extremes and admittedly I'm PPD-light; it just doesn't bother me all that much (and before anyone says it, I know I differ from etiquette, not trying to say my opinion is etiquette). 

    But it really if someone holds non-majoritarian religious views, but society and the government has determined a legal standard for marriage that is different than the religious practices the couple lives out, is there really not an exception to the rule? 



    Sure. If you don't like what legal marriage is, don't do it. 


  • I think this is getting taken to the extremes and admittedly I'm PPD-light; it just doesn't bother me all that much (and before anyone says it, I know I differ from etiquette, not trying to say my opinion is etiquette). 

    But it really if someone holds non-majoritarian religious views, but society and the government has determined a legal standard for marriage that is different than the religious practices the couple lives out, is there really not an exception to the rule? 



    In the United States, can you name one religion where a couple cannot get a marriage license, have their registered religious officiant perform a ceremony (whatever ceremony works for their religion) and then sign the license afterwards to be married? 




  • In the United States, can you name one religion where a couple cannot get a marriage license, have their registered religious officiant perform a ceremony (whatever ceremony works for their religion) and then sign the license afterwards to be married? 


    Sure. Fundamentalist Mormon sects cannot perform legally binding plural marriages. 
  • LondonLisaLondonLisa member
    Eighth Anniversary 2500 Comments 500 Love Its 5 Answers
    edited April 2017







    Sure. Fundamentalist Mormon sects cannot perform legally binding plural marriages. 




    But this is down to bigamy laws, rather than 2 consenting adults belonging to an oppressed religious minority that the government won't recognise. As in, this problem isn't solved by the couple going to the courthouse and then performing their own religious PPD later as the only way they can have a legally recognised union. 

    (Mind you, I am actually fairly pro poly relationship laws if everyone in the situation is a consenting adult, but I think that is very different to religious PPD exemptions).




  • But this is down to bigamy laws, rather than 2 consenting adults belonging to an oppressed religious minority that the government won't recognise. As in, this problem isn't solved by the couple going to the courthouse and then performing their own religious PPD later. 

    (Mind you, I am actually fairly pro poly relationship laws if everyone in the situation is a consenting adult).


    Oh yes that is a different question. 




  • Oh yes that is a different question. 


    What I was trying to get at was from what I understand, in the US, there is no reason, no matter how religious or non religious, that two, unmarried consenting adults cannot get a license, perform whatever ceremony they prefer to the degree of their religion or not religion, sign the license and be married all in the same ceremony. 

    It isn't like some countries where civil and religious weddings are completely separate. 

    Therefore, there is no excuse for a religious PPD exemption because you are just that little bit 'extra' pious. 




  • What I was trying to get at was from what I understand, in the US, there is no reason, no matter how religious or non religious, that two, unmarried consenting adults cannot get a license, perform whatever ceremony they prefer to the degree of their religion or not religion, sign the license and be married all in the same ceremony. 

    It isn't like some countries where civil and religious weddings are completely separate. 

    Therefore, there is no excuse for a religious PPD exemption because you are just that little bit 'extra' pious. 


    I can understand that. They didn't have to up the betrothal ante by getting legally married - they could have just had all one ceremony like everyone else and done something else.

    and @JediElizabeth - I saw that, but I don't understand how it would have one-sided application. Does only the man have a life insurance policy?
  • mrsjapanmrsjapan member
    Second Anniversary 10 Comments
    edited April 2017
    Ok, so to give some context as to why I posted this poll:

    My situation is one of those that is tricky for people to accept...my fiance/husband and I have signed marriage papers in Japan. No ceremony or courthouse or anything. Literally went to the city hall with all our papers and they gave us a marriage certificate. We had already lived together unmarried in the States, but when we both moved to Japan for work, our jobs couldn't guarantee that we would live close to each other or together at all unless we were married, hence why we lived apart (Yokohama for me, Okayama for him). It just was stressful for us so we got the papers signed, which allowed me to get a job in his town and we could live together (they wouldn't have allowed it otherwise).
    I talked to my parents about this and although they are extremely traditional (like, religious ceremony and all...) they said they wanted us to have a ceremony back in America to celebrate with our family, granted we tell none of our relatives that we've already signed papers. I know it seems like I'm just going to have a ceremony for the attention, but the papers to us were for convenience, the ceremony feels like our true wedding in a way. I just saw another post talking about having a courthouse wedding and a ceremony is just selfish and I didn't entirely feel that way, so I wanted to see what other people thought as well. I hope that answers your question :)
    "I am disinclined to acquiesce to your request.... It means no." -Alistair, Dragon Age Origins



  • Ok, so to give some context as to why I posted this poll:

    My situation is one of those that is tricky for people to accept...my fiance/husband and I have signed marriage papers in Japan. No ceremony or courthouse or anything. Literally went to the city hall with all our papers and they gave us a marriage certificate. We had already lived together unmarried in the States, but when we both moved to Japan for work, our jobs couldn't guarantee that we would live close to each other or together at all unless we were married, hence why we lived apart (Yokohama for me, Okayama for him). It just was stressful for us so we got the papers signed, which allowed me to get a job in his town and we could live together (they wouldn't have allowed it otherwise).
    I talked to my parents about this and although they are extremely traditional (like, religious ceremony and all...) they said they wanted us to have a ceremony back in America to celebrate with our family, granted we tell none of our relatives that we've already signed papers. I know it seems like I'm just going to have a ceremony for the attention, but the papers to us were for convenience, the ceremony feels like our true wedding in a way. I just saw another post talking about having a courthouse wedding and a ceremony is just selfish and I didn't entirely feel that way, so I wanted to see what other people thought as well. I hope that answers your question :)


    Would you be telling your religious leader officiating your re-do ceremony you are already married and asking them to help you lie to your family? Or would you be lying to that person as well? 

    Congratulations. You are already married. As PPs have pointed out you are perfectly within reason to have a "Welcome Home" or "Celebration of Marriage" party - you can even have your religious officiant bless your marriage. But you must make it clear to those you are inviting that you are in fact, already married. 

  • megtownxx said:

    Just to contribute to the conversation for fun, my biggest peeve about these situations is the dishonesty aspect. Like actively trying to conceal from your family and guests in order to convey that you're not married, legally or however else you want to define it. If you want a party, have a frickin party. Call it a vow renewal, call it a welcome home, do what you want. Just don't lie to people. It's bad juju and tacky af IMO.


    Or actually have a vow renewal, there's nothing wrong with that. And since you didn't have vows on Japan this seems like a fine choice. 
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