Bakery refuses to make cake for same sex couple (article attached)

kaos16 · August 2017

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/bakery-criticized-refusing-cake-gay-couple-article-1.3448925

So, I feel like these articles are usually much more one sided and dramatic. This one basically says that the bakery in question is run by a woman whose religion doesn't support same sex unions, so when customers come to her wanting a cake for a same-sex wedding she just refers them to a competitor.

Thoughts?

STARMOON44 · August 2017

This is the same as every single other story about a homophobic bakery owner refusing service to gay couples out of bigotry. For the same reason a restaurant can't refuse to serve you for being black a bakery should not be able to refuse you service for being gay.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-court-gays-religion-20170626-story,amp.html

The Supreme Court is hearing a similar case this fall- it's pretty clearly against CA law to be doing this.

flantastic · August 2017

You have to bow out of that specific industry. If you really cannot make cakes for gay weddings, then be a bakery, but you don't make wedding cakes anymore. If a straight couple comes in, you tell them that you don't make cakes for weddings. That way you aren't legally discriminating against anyone who is legally able to get married.

kaos16 · August 2017

STARMOON44 said:

This is the same as every single other story about a homophobic bakery owner refusing service to gay couples out of bigotry. For the same reason a restaurant can't refuse to serve you for being black a bakery should not be able to refuse you service for being gay.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-court-gays-religion-20170626-story,amp.html

The Supreme Court is hearing a similar case this fall- it's pretty clearly against CA law to be doing this.

I know that you say refuse service. . . . do you see a difference between making a cake specifically for a wedding that this person's religion doesn't support and serving in general? It seems like this couple would be served if they came in to purchase a muffin, or a pie, but not a wedding specific cake.

I find it interesting in the article you posted that the CO baker said he just stopped doing wedding cakes in general because he didn't want to do them for same sex unions. Interesting approach.

STARMOON44 · August 2017

kaos16 said:

show previous quotes

STARMOON44 said:

This is the same as every single other story about a homophobic bakery owner refusing service to gay couples out of bigotry. For the same reason a restaurant can't refuse to serve you for being black a bakery should not be able to refuse you service for being gay.

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-court-gays-religion-20170626-story,amp.html

The Supreme Court is hearing a similar case this fall- it's pretty clearly against CA law to be doing this.

I know that you say refuse service. . . . do you see a difference between making a cake specifically for a wedding that this person's religion doesn't support and serving in general? It seems like this couple would be served if they came in to purchase a muffin, or a pie, but not a wedding specific cake.
I find it interesting in the article you posted that the CO baker said he just stopped doing wedding cakes in general because he didn't want to do them for same sex unions. Interesting approach.

No. Not at all. You run a business that makes cakes for special occasions. You may not discriminate on the basis of a protected class in terms of who you bake for. If you aren't willing to do that then yes, you stop selling wedding cakes altogether.

ei34 · August 2017

If one's religion doesn't support same sex unions, the individual's personal response should be to not marry someone of the same sex. If you're a baker and you make wedding cakes, your religion shouldn't play a role in which customers to serve. That's taking personal, religious beliefs way too far.

southernbelle0915 · August 2017

Can we not beat around the bush here? Folks denying service to gay couples are homophobic plain and simple.

It has nothing to do with religion. Gluttony is a sin, so should she also be able to deny service to overweight customers? Are customers who put in a weekly order considered gluttonous or just "good customers"? Should she conduct a moral screening to find out if a customer has ever cheated on their spouse or had sex before marriage - because serving those would probably violate her religion too.

I will eat my words if there's a baker out there who has denied services for other violations of their religion. They're homophobic, so they're using religion as a (very) thinly veiled attempt to discriminate.

ahoywedding · August 2017

southernbelle0915 said:

Can we not beat around the bush here? Folks denying service to gay couples are homophobic plain and simple.

It has nothing to do with religion. Gluttony is a sin, so should she also be able to deny service to overweight customers? Are customers who put in a weekly order considered gluttonous or just "good customers"? Should she conduct a moral screening to find out if a customer has ever cheated on their spouse or had sex before marriage - because serving those would probably violate her religion too.

I will eat my words if there's a baker out there who has denied services for other violations of their religion. They're homophobic, so they're using religion as a (very) thinly veiled attempt to discriminate.

THIS. People try & use religion for shit when it's convenient, but how often do you see religious politicians (or others with some sort of policy-influencing ability) wanting to regulate things like premarital counseling, trying to reduce the divorce rate, refusing to marry adulterers or those who had children out of wedlock? Their faith only comes into play when it's a convenient excuse to avoid things they don't like.

Side note: This isn't to shit on everyone who goes to church, just those who use their religion to make life harder for others. I have some very dear friends who are super religious and are wonderful people.

MyNameIsNot · August 2017

If she were refusing to bake a cake for a Jewish or Muslim couple, would we even be pretending that this is two sided?

People have been using religion as an excuse for discrimination for a long time. It doesn't make it ok.

missfrodo · August 2017

flantastic said:

You have to bow out of that specific industry. If you really cannot make cakes for gay weddings, then be a bakery, but you don't make wedding cakes anymore. If a straight couple comes in, you tell them that you don't make cakes for weddings. That way you aren't legally discriminating against anyone who is legally able to get married.

This is an interesting point, because it's exactly what my church did a little while after my husband and I got married. Apparently, church officials didn't "believe" in gay marriage, so their response when it was legalized was to stop performing weddings altogether! You legit cannot get married by a pastor from that church now, no matter your orientation. I honestly had no idea they held those beliefs when I was there--it seemed like such an accepting place, although I guess it only felt that way because I wasn't doing/being something they didn't accept!

short+sassy · September 2017

missfrodo said:

show previous quotes

flantastic said:

You have to bow out of that specific industry. If you really cannot make cakes for gay weddings, then be a bakery, but you don't make wedding cakes anymore. If a straight couple comes in, you tell them that you don't make cakes for weddings. That way you aren't legally discriminating against anyone who is legally able to get married.

This is an interesting point, because it's exactly what my church did a little while after my husband and I got married. Apparently, church officials didn't "believe" in gay marriage, so their response when it was legalized was to stop performing weddings altogether! You legit cannot get married by a pastor from that church now, no matter your orientation. I honestly had no idea they held those beliefs when I was there--it seemed like such an accepting place, although I guess it only felt that way because I wasn't doing/being something they didn't accept!

I could be totally wrong about this, but I don't think religious organizations have to marry people of the same sex, if it is against their beliefs. It is certainly very accepted that they can discriminate against people from other religions from getting married in their buildings. As such, I see a big difference in that, as opposed to a bakery or a florist.

For example, I'm assuming I can't just walk into a mosque and say, "Hey! I'm Christian, but I think you're building is beautiful and would like to have my marriage ceremony here."

A specific case in point. In my neck of the woods, we have one of the oldest running churches in the country. The St. Louis Cathedral. A very highly desired place to get married. But at least one member of the wedding couple has to be Catholic AND have been a parishioner...specifically at the church...for umpteen years (though I've heard LARGE donations can make exceptions happen). Don't know their stance on same sex marriage.

But for secular businesses, it's just eye rolling. It's a CAKE!!! It's not being "supportive and approving" of anything. But, as a consumer, I appreciate when a business foolishly flouts their political and religious views. That way I know who I DON'T want to support with my buying dollars.

ahoywedding · September 2017

short+sassy said:

show previous quotes

missfrodo said:

flantastic said:

You have to bow out of that specific industry. If you really cannot make cakes for gay weddings, then be a bakery, but you don't make wedding cakes anymore. If a straight couple comes in, you tell them that you don't make cakes for weddings. That way you aren't legally discriminating against anyone who is legally able to get married.

This is an interesting point, because it's exactly what my church did a little while after my husband and I got married. Apparently, church officials didn't "believe" in gay marriage, so their response when it was legalized was to stop performing weddings altogether! You legit cannot get married by a pastor from that church now, no matter your orientation. I honestly had no idea they held those beliefs when I was there--it seemed like such an accepting place, although I guess it only felt that way because I wasn't doing/being something they didn't accept!

I could be totally wrong about this, but I don't think religious organizations have to marry people of the same sex, if it is against their beliefs. It is certainly very accepted that they can discriminate against people from other religions from getting married in their buildings. As such, I see a big difference in that, as opposed to a bakery or a florist.
For example, I'm assuming I can't just walk into a mosque and say, "Hey! I'm Christian, but I think you're building is beautiful and would like to have my marriage ceremony here."
A specific case in point. In my neck of the woods, we have one of the oldest running churches in the country. The St. Louis Cathedral. A very highly desired place to get married. But at least one member of the wedding couple has to be Catholic AND have been a parishioner...specifically at the church...for umpteen years (though I've heard LARGE donations can make exceptions happen). Don't know their stance on same sex marriage.
But for secular businesses, it's just eye rolling. It's a CAKE!!! It's not being "supportive and approving" of anything. But, as a consumer, I appreciate when a business foolishly flouts their political and religious views. That way I know who I DON'T want to support with my buying dollars.

Does this apply to all churches, or just Catholic ones? I grew up in a super Catholic area and remember hearing that alllll the time, but I've also met people who literally did choose any random church and get married there. I think some of them require you to attend a few services there and at least act like you're going to keep going, but from what I've seen Catholics are some of the most restrictive. (I didn't get married in a church, so didn't personally investigate)

short+sassy · September 2017

ahoywedding said:

show previous quotes

short+sassy said:

missfrodo said:

flantastic said:

You have to bow out of that specific industry. If you really cannot make cakes for gay weddings, then be a bakery, but you don't make wedding cakes anymore. If a straight couple comes in, you tell them that you don't make cakes for weddings. That way you aren't legally discriminating against anyone who is legally able to get married.

This is an interesting point, because it's exactly what my church did a little while after my husband and I got married. Apparently, church officials didn't "believe" in gay marriage, so their response when it was legalized was to stop performing weddings altogether! You legit cannot get married by a pastor from that church now, no matter your orientation. I honestly had no idea they held those beliefs when I was there--it seemed like such an accepting place, although I guess it only felt that way because I wasn't doing/being something they didn't accept!

I could be totally wrong about this, but I don't think religious organizations have to marry people of the same sex, if it is against their beliefs. It is certainly very accepted that they can discriminate against people from other religions from getting married in their buildings. As such, I see a big difference in that, as opposed to a bakery or a florist.
For example, I'm assuming I can't just walk into a mosque and say, "Hey! I'm Christian, but I think you're building is beautiful and would like to have my marriage ceremony here."
A specific case in point. In my neck of the woods, we have one of the oldest running churches in the country. The St. Louis Cathedral. A very highly desired place to get married. But at least one member of the wedding couple has to be Catholic AND have been a parishioner...specifically at the church...for umpteen years (though I've heard LARGE donations can make exceptions happen). Don't know their stance on same sex marriage.
But for secular businesses, it's just eye rolling. It's a CAKE!!! It's not being "supportive and approving" of anything. But, as a consumer, I appreciate when a business foolishly flouts their political and religious views. That way I know who I DON'T want to support with my buying dollars.

Does this apply to all churches, or just Catholic ones? I grew up in a super Catholic area and remember hearing that alllll the time, but I've also met people who literally did choose any random church and get married there. I think some of them require you to attend a few services there and at least act like you're going to keep going, but from what I've seen Catholics are some of the most restrictive. (I didn't get married in a church, so didn't personally investigate)

I assume it applies to all religious organizations. For example, I attended a Lutheran church growing up. You didn't have to be Lutheran to get married there. But one person in the wedding couple needed to be Christian. Or at least pretend they were Christian.

ahoywedding · September 2017

short+sassy said:

show previous quotes

ahoywedding said:

short+sassy said:

missfrodo said:

flantastic said:

You have to bow out of that specific industry. If you really cannot make cakes for gay weddings, then be a bakery, but you don't make wedding cakes anymore. If a straight couple comes in, you tell them that you don't make cakes for weddings. That way you aren't legally discriminating against anyone who is legally able to get married.

This is an interesting point, because it's exactly what my church did a little while after my husband and I got married. Apparently, church officials didn't "believe" in gay marriage, so their response when it was legalized was to stop performing weddings altogether! You legit cannot get married by a pastor from that church now, no matter your orientation. I honestly had no idea they held those beliefs when I was there--it seemed like such an accepting place, although I guess it only felt that way because I wasn't doing/being something they didn't accept!

I could be totally wrong about this, but I don't think religious organizations have to marry people of the same sex, if it is against their beliefs. It is certainly very accepted that they can discriminate against people from other religions from getting married in their buildings. As such, I see a big difference in that, as opposed to a bakery or a florist.
For example, I'm assuming I can't just walk into a mosque and say, "Hey! I'm Christian, but I think you're building is beautiful and would like to have my marriage ceremony here."
A specific case in point. In my neck of the woods, we have one of the oldest running churches in the country. The St. Louis Cathedral. A very highly desired place to get married. But at least one member of the wedding couple has to be Catholic AND have been a parishioner...specifically at the church...for umpteen years (though I've heard LARGE donations can make exceptions happen). Don't know their stance on same sex marriage.
But for secular businesses, it's just eye rolling. It's a CAKE!!! It's not being "supportive and approving" of anything. But, as a consumer, I appreciate when a business foolishly flouts their political and religious views. That way I know who I DON'T want to support with my buying dollars.

Does this apply to all churches, or just Catholic ones? I grew up in a super Catholic area and remember hearing that alllll the time, but I've also met people who literally did choose any random church and get married there. I think some of them require you to attend a few services there and at least act like you're going to keep going, but from what I've seen Catholics are some of the most restrictive. (I didn't get married in a church, so didn't personally investigate)

I assume it applies to all religious organizations. For example, I attended a Lutheran church growing up. You didn't have to be Lutheran to get married there. But one person in the wedding couple needed to be Christian. Or at least pretend they were Christian.

Yeah that's more what I meant, like the Catholic churches require one person to legit be Catholic (and often belong to that church), but other churches are more relaxed on their requirements and just require one person to be some kind of Christian.

ILoveBeachMusic · September 2017

ahoywedding said:

show previous quotes

short+sassy said:

ahoywedding said:

short+sassy said:

missfrodo said:

flantastic said:

You have to bow out of that specific industry. If you really cannot make cakes for gay weddings, then be a bakery, but you don't make wedding cakes anymore. If a straight couple comes in, you tell them that you don't make cakes for weddings. That way you aren't legally discriminating against anyone who is legally able to get married.

This is an interesting point, because it's exactly what my church did a little while after my husband and I got married. Apparently, church officials didn't "believe" in gay marriage, so their response when it was legalized was to stop performing weddings altogether! You legit cannot get married by a pastor from that church now, no matter your orientation. I honestly had no idea they held those beliefs when I was there--it seemed like such an accepting place, although I guess it only felt that way because I wasn't doing/being something they didn't accept!

I could be totally wrong about this, but I don't think religious organizations have to marry people of the same sex, if it is against their beliefs. It is certainly very accepted that they can discriminate against people from other religions from getting married in their buildings. As such, I see a big difference in that, as opposed to a bakery or a florist.
For example, I'm assuming I can't just walk into a mosque and say, "Hey! I'm Christian, but I think you're building is beautiful and would like to have my marriage ceremony here."
A specific case in point. In my neck of the woods, we have one of the oldest running churches in the country. The St. Louis Cathedral. A very highly desired place to get married. But at least one member of the wedding couple has to be Catholic AND have been a parishioner...specifically at the church...for umpteen years (though I've heard LARGE donations can make exceptions happen). Don't know their stance on same sex marriage.
But for secular businesses, it's just eye rolling. It's a CAKE!!! It's not being "supportive and approving" of anything. But, as a consumer, I appreciate when a business foolishly flouts their political and religious views. That way I know who I DON'T want to support with my buying dollars.

Does this apply to all churches, or just Catholic ones? I grew up in a super Catholic area and remember hearing that alllll the time, but I've also met people who literally did choose any random church and get married there. I think some of them require you to attend a few services there and at least act like you're going to keep going, but from what I've seen Catholics are some of the most restrictive. (I didn't get married in a church, so didn't personally investigate)

I assume it applies to all religious organizations. For example, I attended a Lutheran church growing up. You didn't have to be Lutheran to get married there. But one person in the wedding couple needed to be Christian. Or at least pretend they were Christian.

Yeah that's more what I meant, like the Catholic churches require one person to legit be Catholic (and often belong to that church), but other churches are more relaxed on their requirements and just require one person to be some kind of Christian.

We attend a Lutheran church (ELCA). Our pastor can refuse to marry anyone she doesn't think should be married. We have a beautiful sanctuary and use to have people who weren't members of the church get married there. Now the rules have been changed that you have to be a member (or child of a member) because non-members' weddings were causing members to not have the wedding dates they wanted. Our pastor requires pre-marital counseling which is how she assesses if people are ready to be married.

I agree there is a difference between and church refusing to marry a couple and a secular business refusing to serve someone.

charlotte989875 · September 2017

ILoveBeachMusic said:

show previous quotes

ahoywedding said:

short+sassy said:

ahoywedding said:

short+sassy said:

missfrodo said:

flantastic said:

You have to bow out of that specific industry. If you really cannot make cakes for gay weddings, then be a bakery, but you don't make wedding cakes anymore. If a straight couple comes in, you tell them that you don't make cakes for weddings. That way you aren't legally discriminating against anyone who is legally able to get married.

This is an interesting point, because it's exactly what my church did a little while after my husband and I got married. Apparently, church officials didn't "believe" in gay marriage, so their response when it was legalized was to stop performing weddings altogether! You legit cannot get married by a pastor from that church now, no matter your orientation. I honestly had no idea they held those beliefs when I was there--it seemed like such an accepting place, although I guess it only felt that way because I wasn't doing/being something they didn't accept!

I could be totally wrong about this, but I don't think religious organizations have to marry people of the same sex, if it is against their beliefs. It is certainly very accepted that they can discriminate against people from other religions from getting married in their buildings. As such, I see a big difference in that, as opposed to a bakery or a florist.
For example, I'm assuming I can't just walk into a mosque and say, "Hey! I'm Christian, but I think you're building is beautiful and would like to have my marriage ceremony here."
A specific case in point. In my neck of the woods, we have one of the oldest running churches in the country. The St. Louis Cathedral. A very highly desired place to get married. But at least one member of the wedding couple has to be Catholic AND have been a parishioner...specifically at the church...for umpteen years (though I've heard LARGE donations can make exceptions happen). Don't know their stance on same sex marriage.
But for secular businesses, it's just eye rolling. It's a CAKE!!! It's not being "supportive and approving" of anything. But, as a consumer, I appreciate when a business foolishly flouts their political and religious views. That way I know who I DON'T want to support with my buying dollars.

Does this apply to all churches, or just Catholic ones? I grew up in a super Catholic area and remember hearing that alllll the time, but I've also met people who literally did choose any random church and get married there. I think some of them require you to attend a few services there and at least act like you're going to keep going, but from what I've seen Catholics are some of the most restrictive. (I didn't get married in a church, so didn't personally investigate)

I assume it applies to all religious organizations. For example, I attended a Lutheran church growing up. You didn't have to be Lutheran to get married there. But one person in the wedding couple needed to be Christian. Or at least pretend they were Christian.

Yeah that's more what I meant, like the Catholic churches require one person to legit be Catholic (and often belong to that church), but other churches are more relaxed on their requirements and just require one person to be some kind of Christian.

We attend a Lutheran church (ELCA). Our pastor can refuse to marry anyone she doesn't think should be married. We have a beautiful sanctuary and use to have people who weren't members of the church get married there. Now the rules have been changed that you have to be a member (or child of a member) because non-members' weddings were causing members to not have the wedding dates they wanted. Our pastor requires pre-marital counseling which is how she assesses if people are ready to be married.

I agree there is a difference between and church refusing to marry a couple and a secular business refusing to serve someone.

I was married in an ECLA church, who deliberately reached out to the LGBTQ+ community to welcome them to be married there; it was one of the things I wanted in a church to marry us. We are not members but my godmother is; and as long as we made our "donation" (read $1000 fee) we could have any open date.

We also did pre-martial counseling with the pastor (it was a requirement) and I thought it was interesting and pretty useful. He also didn't care that we lived together and asked if we had children. So welcoming and inclusive.

ILoveBeachMusic · September 2017

charlotte989875 said:

show previous quotes

ILoveBeachMusic said:

ahoywedding said:

short+sassy said:

ahoywedding said:

short+sassy said:

missfrodo said:

flantastic said:

You have to bow out of that specific industry. If you really cannot make cakes for gay weddings, then be a bakery, but you don't make wedding cakes anymore. If a straight couple comes in, you tell them that you don't make cakes for weddings. That way you aren't legally discriminating against anyone who is legally able to get married.

This is an interesting point, because it's exactly what my church did a little while after my husband and I got married. Apparently, church officials didn't "believe" in gay marriage, so their response when it was legalized was to stop performing weddings altogether! You legit cannot get married by a pastor from that church now, no matter your orientation. I honestly had no idea they held those beliefs when I was there--it seemed like such an accepting place, although I guess it only felt that way because I wasn't doing/being something they didn't accept!

I could be totally wrong about this, but I don't think religious organizations have to marry people of the same sex, if it is against their beliefs. It is certainly very accepted that they can discriminate against people from other religions from getting married in their buildings. As such, I see a big difference in that, as opposed to a bakery or a florist.
For example, I'm assuming I can't just walk into a mosque and say, "Hey! I'm Christian, but I think you're building is beautiful and would like to have my marriage ceremony here."
A specific case in point. In my neck of the woods, we have one of the oldest running churches in the country. The St. Louis Cathedral. A very highly desired place to get married. But at least one member of the wedding couple has to be Catholic AND have been a parishioner...specifically at the church...for umpteen years (though I've heard LARGE donations can make exceptions happen). Don't know their stance on same sex marriage.
But for secular businesses, it's just eye rolling. It's a CAKE!!! It's not being "supportive and approving" of anything. But, as a consumer, I appreciate when a business foolishly flouts their political and religious views. That way I know who I DON'T want to support with my buying dollars.

Does this apply to all churches, or just Catholic ones? I grew up in a super Catholic area and remember hearing that alllll the time, but I've also met people who literally did choose any random church and get married there. I think some of them require you to attend a few services there and at least act like you're going to keep going, but from what I've seen Catholics are some of the most restrictive. (I didn't get married in a church, so didn't personally investigate)

I assume it applies to all religious organizations. For example, I attended a Lutheran church growing up. You didn't have to be Lutheran to get married there. But one person in the wedding couple needed to be Christian. Or at least pretend they were Christian.

Yeah that's more what I meant, like the Catholic churches require one person to legit be Catholic (and often belong to that church), but other churches are more relaxed on their requirements and just require one person to be some kind of Christian.

We attend a Lutheran church (ELCA). Our pastor can refuse to marry anyone she doesn't think should be married. We have a beautiful sanctuary and use to have people who weren't members of the church get married there. Now the rules have been changed that you have to be a member (or child of a member) because non-members' weddings were causing members to not have the wedding dates they wanted. Our pastor requires pre-marital counseling which is how she assesses if people are ready to be married.

I agree there is a difference between and church refusing to marry a couple and a secular business refusing to serve someone.

I was married in an ECLA church, who deliberately reached out to the LGBTQ+ community to welcome them to be married there; it was one of the things I wanted in a church to marry us. We are not members but my godmother is; and as long as we made our "donation" (read $1000 fee) we could have any open date.

We also did pre-martial counseling with the pastor (it was a requirement) and I thought it was interesting and pretty useful. He also didn't care that we lived together and asked if we had children. So welcoming and inclusive.

Our congregation is welcoming to all. When I said "should be married" I meant "ready" to be married. Our pastor would marry a gay couple - as long as she thought they were ready to be married. She wouldn't care if a couple was living together. When she was called to our congregation and came for a Q&A answer session, she was very open about her views on marriage (commitment is more important than the sexual orientation of the couple). The limiting to members and their children is basically a logistics issue so that members can get married in their church over non-members.

charlotte989875 · September 2017

ILoveBeachMusic said:

show previous quotes

charlotte989875 said:

ILoveBeachMusic said:

ahoywedding said:

short+sassy said:

ahoywedding said:

short+sassy said:

missfrodo said:

flantastic said:

You have to bow out of that specific industry. If you really cannot make cakes for gay weddings, then be a bakery, but you don't make wedding cakes anymore. If a straight couple comes in, you tell them that you don't make cakes for weddings. That way you aren't legally discriminating against anyone who is legally able to get married.

This is an interesting point, because it's exactly what my church did a little while after my husband and I got married. Apparently, church officials didn't "believe" in gay marriage, so their response when it was legalized was to stop performing weddings altogether! You legit cannot get married by a pastor from that church now, no matter your orientation. I honestly had no idea they held those beliefs when I was there--it seemed like such an accepting place, although I guess it only felt that way because I wasn't doing/being something they didn't accept!

I could be totally wrong about this, but I don't think religious organizations have to marry people of the same sex, if it is against their beliefs. It is certainly very accepted that they can discriminate against people from other religions from getting married in their buildings. As such, I see a big difference in that, as opposed to a bakery or a florist.
For example, I'm assuming I can't just walk into a mosque and say, "Hey! I'm Christian, but I think you're building is beautiful and would like to have my marriage ceremony here."
A specific case in point. In my neck of the woods, we have one of the oldest running churches in the country. The St. Louis Cathedral. A very highly desired place to get married. But at least one member of the wedding couple has to be Catholic AND have been a parishioner...specifically at the church...for umpteen years (though I've heard LARGE donations can make exceptions happen). Don't know their stance on same sex marriage.
But for secular businesses, it's just eye rolling. It's a CAKE!!! It's not being "supportive and approving" of anything. But, as a consumer, I appreciate when a business foolishly flouts their political and religious views. That way I know who I DON'T want to support with my buying dollars.

Does this apply to all churches, or just Catholic ones? I grew up in a super Catholic area and remember hearing that alllll the time, but I've also met people who literally did choose any random church and get married there. I think some of them require you to attend a few services there and at least act like you're going to keep going, but from what I've seen Catholics are some of the most restrictive. (I didn't get married in a church, so didn't personally investigate)

I assume it applies to all religious organizations. For example, I attended a Lutheran church growing up. You didn't have to be Lutheran to get married there. But one person in the wedding couple needed to be Christian. Or at least pretend they were Christian.

Yeah that's more what I meant, like the Catholic churches require one person to legit be Catholic (and often belong to that church), but other churches are more relaxed on their requirements and just require one person to be some kind of Christian.

We attend a Lutheran church (ELCA). Our pastor can refuse to marry anyone she doesn't think should be married. We have a beautiful sanctuary and use to have people who weren't members of the church get married there. Now the rules have been changed that you have to be a member (or child of a member) because non-members' weddings were causing members to not have the wedding dates they wanted. Our pastor requires pre-marital counseling which is how she assesses if people are ready to be married.

I agree there is a difference between and church refusing to marry a couple and a secular business refusing to serve someone.

I was married in an ECLA church, who deliberately reached out to the LGBTQ+ community to welcome them to be married there; it was one of the things I wanted in a church to marry us. We are not members but my godmother is; and as long as we made our "donation" (read $1000 fee) we could have any open date.

We also did pre-martial counseling with the pastor (it was a requirement) and I thought it was interesting and pretty useful. He also didn't care that we lived together and asked if we had children. So welcoming and inclusive.

Our congregation is welcoming to all. When I said "should be married" I meant "ready" to be married. Our pastor would marry a gay couple - as long as she thought they were ready to be married. She wouldn't care if a couple was living together. When she was called to our congregation and came for a Q&A answer session, she was very open about her views on marriage (commitment is more important than the sexual orientation of the couple). The limiting to members and their children is basically a logistics issue so that members can get married in their church over non-members.

That's great; I more wanted to share I had a great experience with the ECLA church!

justsie · September 2017

Our pastor was Episcopal, and was amazing. We specifically chose him not only because he was a family friend of my FI's Moms, but because he actively goes and supports LGBTQ+ as well as a slew of other minority issues. He is very vocal about his views and we share similar viewpoints. We preferred him to my childhood church I have been a "member" of for 15+ years for this reason. I don't think my childhood church would turn away anyone who was LGBTQ+, but they also wouldn't actively support them and that wasn't enough for me.

Ironically our pastor was also super understanding with where we were religiously. I grew up very religious but had drifted, my H grew up southern baptist, then left the church when his mom came out, was an atheist when we met, and is now looking to go back to reading the bible. Our pastor understood that while religion was important to both of us it was not the end all be all- which I was super shocked and impressed with how he handled it.

OurWildKingdom · September 2017

@justsie, I went to an Episcopal church for years and was always impressed with how inclusive the church is. I'm glad to hear you also had a great experience with an Episcopal pastor.

holyguacamole79 · September 2017

Hellllllllo from a Catholic.

I noticed a few things I'd like to clarify regarding weddings.

It is accurate that at least one of the couple must be a baptized Catholic. It's STRONGLY preferred that he/she be confirmed, but not a hard & fast requirement.
If a Catholic marries a non-Catholic, there are a few options (of sorts). If the other person isn't baptized in any church, (I think) there needs to be a dispensation of some sort. From what I understand, this is rarely an issue and more of a formality. If a Catholic were to marry someone of another Christian faith who has been baptized, they would go through the same marriage prep course(s) and will be asked to abide by the vows and not impede the Catholic spouse in raising any children Catholic.
It is possible to get married at a church where you are not a practicing member. I know several people who have. It's common, though, for the church to charge more for a non-parishioner couple than they would for a couple who is a registered member.
Obviously, the Catholic church is legally protected from marrying a same-sex couple. According to one of my priest friends, things can get a bit sticky, though, if a same-sex couple wishes to have their child baptized Catholic. The Church does not want to deny an infant baptismal grace. At the same time, part of the rite of baptism involves parents promising to raise the child Catholic. It's a difficult situation to navigate, and a lot of things are up to the discretion of the pastor.

Regarding the cake thing .... a priest (Fr. Jonathan Morris) whom I really respect put it very well once. In the Catholic Church, assisting someone in committing a sin is a sin itself. For example, if I were to take a pregnant woman to PP for an abortion, I would be sinning.

NOTE: I am not comparing same-sex marriage to abortion.

So, people (at least Catholics) often site that their baking a cake for a same-sex wedding would be a form of participation. I love that Fr. Jonathan once made a distinction in an interview regarding the "level" of participation. It's one level of participation to bake a cake for a wedding. It's a completely different level if someone were to be in the bridal party or be an officiant. It's key to recognize the difference and take into consideration just how much "participating" one should take part in for a wedding.

I hope this helps.

Bakery refuses to make cake for same sex couple (article attached)

Re: Bakery refuses to make cake for same sex couple (article attached)

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