Tuesday

STARMOON44 · July 2019

I think community college should be free, 4 year state college should be significantly lower cost, but I don’t think all college should be free or that all loans should be forgiven. I know it’s not a trendy view but I paid off my 130k in loans, and plenty of other people can afford to do so too. I’d much rather see proposals that focus on improving access for everyone to public 2 and 4 year colleges, providing better and more supportive repayment plans that recognize sometimes 18 year olds just get it wrong, and they shouldn’t be punished for that with 30 years of crippling debt, but also that education is super valuable and important and it’s okay for a college education to be a big deal major expense.

banana468 · July 2019

STARMOON44 said:

I think community college should be free, 4 year state college should be significantly lower cost, but I don’t think all college should be free or that all loans should be forgiven. I know it’s not a trendy view but I paid off my 130k in loans, and plenty of other people can afford to do so too. I’d much rather see proposals that focus on improving access for everyone to public 2 and 4 year colleges, providing better and more supportive repayment plans that recognize sometimes 18 year olds just get it wrong, and they shouldn’t be punished for that with 30 years of crippling debt, but also that education is super valuable and important and it’s okay for a college education to be a big deal major expense.

And to add to that, there should be accredited programs in the community colleges and 4 year state colleges/universities that are accredited for money.

But I think that if you're headed off to college NOW, there needs to be some discussion about how you'll pay off the loans you have for attending Boston University if you graduated in 4 years with a BA in British Literature. The value of the education may be great but what is the expected annual salary with that degree vs. a degree in engineering or even education?

VarunaTT · July 2019

banana468 said:

STARMOON44 said:

I think community college should be free, 4 year state college should be significantly lower cost, but I don’t think all college should be free or that all loans should be forgiven. I know it’s not a trendy view but I paid off my 130k in loans, and plenty of other people can afford to do so too. I’d much rather see proposals that focus on improving access for everyone to public 2 and 4 year colleges, providing better and more supportive repayment plans that recognize sometimes 18 year olds just get it wrong, and they shouldn’t be punished for that with 30 years of crippling debt, but also that education is super valuable and important and it’s okay for a college education to be a big deal major expense.

And to add to that, there should be accredited programs in the community colleges and 4 year state colleges/universities that are accredited for money.

But I think that if you're headed off to college NOW, there needs to be some discussion about how you'll pay off the loans you have for attending Boston University if you graduated in 4 years with a BA in British Literature. The value of the education may be great but what is the expected annual salary with that degree vs. a degree in engineering or even education?

But here's my problem with that. STEM is important...so is history and literature. Scholarship is becoming a thing of the past, in order to create more and better "workers in the cog" and that really bothers me. If your skill set is to be amazing in being a dramaturg, why is that less than a civil engineer? Humanities and arts are an astoundingly important part of humanity and shouldn't be considered less than. The arts have always been undervalued since the loss of the patronage movement.

flantastic · July 2019

banana468 said:

STARMOON44 said:

I think community college should be free, 4 year state college should be significantly lower cost, but I don’t think all college should be free or that all loans should be forgiven. I know it’s not a trendy view but I paid off my 130k in loans, and plenty of other people can afford to do so too. I’d much rather see proposals that focus on improving access for everyone to public 2 and 4 year colleges, providing better and more supportive repayment plans that recognize sometimes 18 year olds just get it wrong, and they shouldn’t be punished for that with 30 years of crippling debt, but also that education is super valuable and important and it’s okay for a college education to be a big deal major expense.

And to add to that, there should be accredited programs in the community colleges and 4 year state colleges/universities that are accredited for money.

But I think that if you're headed off to college NOW, there needs to be some discussion about how you'll pay off the loans you have for attending Boston University if you graduated in 4 years with a BA in British Literature. The value of the education may be great but what is the expected annual salary with that degree vs. a degree in engineering or even education?

Something they always pushed with us is that there are businesses who do want those people. You just have to be willing to go into business. You have to be willing to take a job even if it's not "ideal."

My sister graduated in May and has turned down some jobs (in her field) to hold out for the subfield she wants. My parents are cool with it because she's the youngest and no one else is moving back to our hometown anytime soon. I also fully expect that she does get a job, she doesn't have a ton of loans, and it'll pay decently. But when you're holding out for the perfect "Brit Lit" job which will pay nothing and you piled up the loans to get there... I agree that a conversation should probably be had about "the plan" before you get to that point.

I majored in theology, at Notre Dame. Not exactly the most lucrative of field or the least expensive of schools. But I knew there were graduate programs in education or theology (with a practicum in actually working) where the tuition was nil and I got a stipend. (I did one of those, had no trouble getting a job, and paid off my loans on my not-that-great salary within 3 years.) I also double majored in my other interest, pre-med, so I knew I could as a secondary thing go to something like anesthesiology assistant school, since I had no desire to be a doctor. And if I'd had to do loans to pay for the entirety of that education, I probably wouldn't have been in the theology major or that university at all. As wonderful as it was - obviously I see a lot of value in my time there, and I'm a big proponent of core requirements/exposure to things like philosophy - you can't just choose whatever you feel as a major without a plan for the future.

I do have some professor friends who think higher education is headed for a crash, because costs keep going up at a rate far higher than wages. People will opt out in greater numbers very soon.

flantastic · July 2019

VarunaTT said:

banana468 said:

STARMOON44 said:

I think community college should be free, 4 year state college should be significantly lower cost, but I don’t think all college should be free or that all loans should be forgiven. I know it’s not a trendy view but I paid off my 130k in loans, and plenty of other people can afford to do so too. I’d much rather see proposals that focus on improving access for everyone to public 2 and 4 year colleges, providing better and more supportive repayment plans that recognize sometimes 18 year olds just get it wrong, and they shouldn’t be punished for that with 30 years of crippling debt, but also that education is super valuable and important and it’s okay for a college education to be a big deal major expense.

And to add to that, there should be accredited programs in the community colleges and 4 year state colleges/universities that are accredited for money.

But I think that if you're headed off to college NOW, there needs to be some discussion about how you'll pay off the loans you have for attending Boston University if you graduated in 4 years with a BA in British Literature. The value of the education may be great but what is the expected annual salary with that degree vs. a degree in engineering or even education?

But here's my problem with that. STEM is important...so is history and literature. Scholarship is becoming a thing of the past, in order to create more and better "workers in the cog" and that really bothers me. If your skill set is to be amazing in being a dramaturg, why is that less than a civil engineer? Humanities and arts are an astoundingly important part of humanity and shouldn't be considered less than. The arts have always been undervalued since the loss of the patronage movement.

I definitely think we need a new patronage movement. And the people who are currently in a position to do that probably made their money without much exposure to said core requirements or variety in the humanities, so I don't know how we get them to value it more.

short+sassy · July 2019

STARMOON44 said:

I think community college should be free, 4 year state college should be significantly lower cost, but I don’t think all college should be free or that all loans should be forgiven. I know it’s not a trendy view but I paid off my 130k in loans, and plenty of other people can afford to do so too. I’d much rather see proposals that focus on improving access for everyone to public 2 and 4 year colleges, providing better and more supportive repayment plans that recognize sometimes 18 year olds just get it wrong, and they shouldn’t be punished for that with 30 years of crippling debt, but also that education is super valuable and important and it’s okay for a college education to be a big deal major expense.

More in the middle like this, is where I think/hope a lot of common ground can be met.

My H and I were just having a disagreement a couple nights ago about existing student debt. I was shocked that he has an attitude that most student debt should be forgiven. WTH?!?! How does that even make any sense? I'm good with maybe some forgiveness, depending on circumstances. I think there are already programs like that in place. I'm definitely good with restructuring plans. Maybe giving people a break on interest rates for student loans. Longer loan terms, if payments are too onerous as compared to income.

But if people agree to take out a loan to pay XYZ. Then they need to pay back XYZ. I may not like that 18 and 20-year-olds are sometimes taking on substantial debt that they don't really understand. But we have a line for that in our society and that line is the age of 18.

Plus, as you pointed out @STARMOON44, it is exceedingly unfair to people who have worked hard to pay their student loans off, sometimes early. Or people like myself who went to a community college first and stayed living at home to save money. Worked my a$$ off at a p/t job the whole time I was in school and specifically went to a state college in my state of residency, so I could graduate without having to take out a student loan.

banana468 · July 2019

VarunaTT said:

banana468 said:

STARMOON44 said:

I think community college should be free, 4 year state college should be significantly lower cost, but I don’t think all college should be free or that all loans should be forgiven. I know it’s not a trendy view but I paid off my 130k in loans, and plenty of other people can afford to do so too. I’d much rather see proposals that focus on improving access for everyone to public 2 and 4 year colleges, providing better and more supportive repayment plans that recognize sometimes 18 year olds just get it wrong, and they shouldn’t be punished for that with 30 years of crippling debt, but also that education is super valuable and important and it’s okay for a college education to be a big deal major expense.

And to add to that, there should be accredited programs in the community colleges and 4 year state colleges/universities that are accredited for money.

But I think that if you're headed off to college NOW, there needs to be some discussion about how you'll pay off the loans you have for attending Boston University if you graduated in 4 years with a BA in British Literature. The value of the education may be great but what is the expected annual salary with that degree vs. a degree in engineering or even education?

But here's my problem with that. STEM is important...so is history and literature. Scholarship is becoming a thing of the past, in order to create more and better "workers in the cog" and that really bothers me. If your skill set is to be amazing in being a dramaturg, why is that less than a civil engineer? Humanities and arts are an astoundingly important part of humanity and shouldn't be considered less than. The arts have always been undervalued since the loss of the patronage movement.

I have a BA in psychology so I am not poo pooing the humanities.

My point is that if you are going to enroll in a university and have student loans that are well into the six figure range when you graduate there needs to be discussion (hopefully by better equipped guidance counselors) about the return on your investment. Because right now BU is $50,000 tuition and I don't think that includes room and board. So if at the end of four years your debt exceeds $200,000 because you went to a private college and didn't look into what you'd want to DO with that degree. I cited a STEM job because at entry level the salaries are higher.

And while I don't have the answer my comment is based on the current reality and risk of that debt when committing to such a large loan. That's more than our condo!

VarunaTT · July 2019

The issue, as I see it, is that we were sold a pack of lies. I'm still astounded at how many programs continue to insist their graduates make X amount. (ETA: or the old, "go to law school, you don't have to be an attorney!!!" mantra). I'm still astounded at how many fields now require an undergrad degree at a minimum and don't pay the wages to match (my field is so guilty of this). And while these lies have been in existence since I was in school, the overall loan I walked out with at graduation, is now only about 2 years at the state university I graduated from.

We need people to work, buy cars, buy houses, and save/spend monies, to participate in capitalism to have a successful society. We're at the point for a lot of people where that's simply not an option because they went to school like good little cogs in the wheel, did a program, and then were underemployed. When you usually get a loan, your collateral is close to equal in the money you are loaned and that's not true for a college education for a lot of people and it's not even necessarily their fault or avoidable at this point.

I'm more on board with a plan like Warren's, where it's up to a certain amount and caps interest, just b/c of long term consequences of a mass forgiveness that can't truly be foreseen accurately. But I also really don't give AF. The only reason I'm out from under mine is a stroke of good luck. My student loan payment was only $70 less than my car payment now.

charlotte989875 · July 2019

short+sassy said:

STARMOON44 said:

I think community college should be free, 4 year state college should be significantly lower cost, but I don’t think all college should be free or that all loans should be forgiven. I know it’s not a trendy view but I paid off my 130k in loans, and plenty of other people can afford to do so too. I’d much rather see proposals that focus on improving access for everyone to public 2 and 4 year colleges, providing better and more supportive repayment plans that recognize sometimes 18 year olds just get it wrong, and they shouldn’t be punished for that with 30 years of crippling debt, but also that education is super valuable and important and it’s okay for a college education to be a big deal major expense.

More in the middle like this, is where I think/hope a lot of common ground can be met.

My H and I were just having a disagreement a couple nights ago about existing student debt. I was shocked that he has an attitude that most student debt should be forgiven. WTH?!?! How does that even make any sense? I'm good with maybe some forgiveness, depending on circumstances. I think there are already programs like that in place. I'm definitely good with restructuring plans. Maybe giving people a break on interest rates for student loans. Longer loan terms, if payments are too onerous as compared to income.

But if people agree to take out a loan to pay XYZ. Then they need to pay back XYZ. I may not like that 18 and 20-year-olds are sometimes taking on substantial debt that they don't really understand. But we have a line for that in our society and that line is the age of 18.

Plus, as you pointed out @STARMOON44, it is exceedingly unfair to people who have worked hard to pay their student loans off, sometimes early. Or people like myself who went to a community college first and stayed living at home to save money. Worked my a$$ off at a p/t job the whole time I was in school and specifically went to a state college in my state of residency, so I could graduate without having to take out a student loan.

So I agree people should pay the loans they’re given. I do really support public service loan forgiveness though because it encourages people to serve in lower paying positions (than they might otherwise make).

I have significant student loans. My parents couldn’t afford to send me to the schools I went to. And I wanted to go to those programs to eventually get a job where I could have more opportunities than my parents did.

I don’t and have never expected anyone to pay my loans for me. But my spending power in the economy is otherwise significantly curtailed due to my student loans. Multiply that by thousands (hundreds of thousands) of students and the impact on the economy is substantial. And there have been a bunch of impact studies showing that student loan debt is significantly limiting major purchases like homes, cars, etc. So yes people should pay off what they owe, but at the same time we should consider the impact to the macroeconomy where we have a large portion of young, working adults who can’t put money back into the economy because of their student loans.

banana468 · July 2019

@VarunaTT I'm lucky that my parents paid for me to go to college to the state Uni. I graduated with no debt and found an entry level job and have now worked in this industry for 17 years.

My beef is also that there has been no correcting for tuition. Now that I'm 17 years out of college I agree with you. My job didn't require a college degree and I'd seriously question if it's "worth" it now yet so many employers do put that over as a (IMO) unnecessary job requirement.

charlotte989875 · July 2019

VarunaTT said:

The issue, as I see it, is that we were sold a pack of lies. I'm still astounded at how many programs continue to insist their graduates make X amount. (ETA: or the old, "go to law school, you don't have to be an attorney!!!" mantra). I'm still astounded at how many fields now require an undergrad degree at a minimum and don't pay the wages to match (my field is so guilty of this). And while these lies have been in existence since I was in school, the overall loan I walked out with at graduation, is now only about 2 years at the state university I graduated from.

We need people to work, buy cars, buy houses, and save/spend monies, to participate in capitalism to have a successful society. We're at the point for a lot of people where that's simply not an option because they went to school like good little cogs in the wheel, did a program, and then were underemployed. When you usually get a loan, your collateral is close to equal in the money you are loaned and that's not true for a college education for a lot of people and it's not even necessarily their fault or avoidable at this point.

I'm more on board with a plan like Warren's, where it's up to a certain amount and caps interest, just b/c of long term consequences of a mass forgiveness that can't truly be foreseen accurately. But I also really don't give AF. The only reason I'm out from under mine is a stroke of good luck. My student loan payment was only $70 less than my car payment now.

I agree here; the problem is capitalism and the solution is far far bigger than just tuition forgiveness/reduction, etc.

I saw a post recently for a social worker, requiring a Master’s Degree + experience with pay between $38-42K. That’s insane.

ETA: Bolded. My+H’s student loan payments are more (like a fair amount more) than our mortgage.

MyNameIsNot · July 2019

charlotte989875 said:

short+sassy said:

STARMOON44 said:

I think community college should be free, 4 year state college should be significantly lower cost, but I don’t think all college should be free or that all loans should be forgiven. I know it’s not a trendy view but I paid off my 130k in loans, and plenty of other people can afford to do so too. I’d much rather see proposals that focus on improving access for everyone to public 2 and 4 year colleges, providing better and more supportive repayment plans that recognize sometimes 18 year olds just get it wrong, and they shouldn’t be punished for that with 30 years of crippling debt, but also that education is super valuable and important and it’s okay for a college education to be a big deal major expense.

More in the middle like this, is where I think/hope a lot of common ground can be met.

My H and I were just having a disagreement a couple nights ago about existing student debt. I was shocked that he has an attitude that most student debt should be forgiven. WTH?!?! How does that even make any sense? I'm good with maybe some forgiveness, depending on circumstances. I think there are already programs like that in place. I'm definitely good with restructuring plans. Maybe giving people a break on interest rates for student loans. Longer loan terms, if payments are too onerous as compared to income.

But if people agree to take out a loan to pay XYZ. Then they need to pay back XYZ. I may not like that 18 and 20-year-olds are sometimes taking on substantial debt that they don't really understand. But we have a line for that in our society and that line is the age of 18.

Plus, as you pointed out @STARMOON44, it is exceedingly unfair to people who have worked hard to pay their student loans off, sometimes early. Or people like myself who went to a community college first and stayed living at home to save money. Worked my a$$ off at a p/t job the whole time I was in school and specifically went to a state college in my state of residency, so I could graduate without having to take out a student loan.

So I agree people should pay the loans they’re given. I do really support public service loan forgiveness though because it encourages people to serve in lower paying positions (than they might otherwise make).

I have significant student loans. My parents couldn’t afford to send me to the schools I went to. And I wanted to go to those programs to eventually get a job where I could have more opportunities than my parents did.

I don’t and have never expected anyone to pay my loans for me. But my spending power in the economy is otherwise significantly curtailed due to my student loans. Multiply that by thousands (hundreds of thousands) of students and the impact on the economy is substantial. And there have been a bunch of impact studies showing that student loan debt is significantly limiting major purchases like homes, cars, etc. So yes people should pay off what they owe, but at the same time we should consider the impact to the macroeconomy where we have a large portion of young, working adults who can’t put money back into the economy because of their student loans.

This. We have an entire generation of people who's spending is stifled. We're kidding ourselves if we don't think that has an impact on our economy as a whole. Like it or not, if people don't spend, we go into a recession. Impact studies suggest that some student loan forgiveness would have a similar economic effect as the GI Bill after WWII.

On top of that, we need to have some safety nets for people. If you get in over your head in medical bills, consumer debt, personal loans, whatever, you can file bankruptcy. It's not walking away easy, but it does give people a way out rather than just let them drown. 99% of student loans cannot be discharged even in bankruptcy. Add that their interest rates are high and that public service loan forgiveness is often a bait and switch, and you can see how this is snowballing fast.

banana468 · July 2019

Right! My home cost just under $300K. I cannot imagine seeing Chiquita or Chiquito being saddled with a student loan payment of that amount and yet that's what it's looking like in 15 years.

flantastic · July 2019

charlotte989875 said:

VarunaTT said:

The issue, as I see it, is that we were sold a pack of lies. I'm still astounded at how many programs continue to insist their graduates make X amount. (ETA: or the old, "go to law school, you don't have to be an attorney!!!" mantra). I'm still astounded at how many fields now require an undergrad degree at a minimum and don't pay the wages to match (my field is so guilty of this). And while these lies have been in existence since I was in school, the overall loan I walked out with at graduation, is now only about 2 years at the state university I graduated from.

We need people to work, buy cars, buy houses, and save/spend monies, to participate in capitalism to have a successful society. We're at the point for a lot of people where that's simply not an option because they went to school like good little cogs in the wheel, did a program, and then were underemployed. When you usually get a loan, your collateral is close to equal in the money you are loaned and that's not true for a college education for a lot of people and it's not even necessarily their fault or avoidable at this point.

I'm more on board with a plan like Warren's, where it's up to a certain amount and caps interest, just b/c of long term consequences of a mass forgiveness that can't truly be foreseen accurately. But I also really don't give AF. The only reason I'm out from under mine is a stroke of good luck. My student loan payment was only $70 less than my car payment now.

I agree here; the problem is capitalism and the solution is far far bigger than just tuition forgiveness/reduction, etc.

I saw a post recently for a social worker, requiring a Master’s Degree + experience with pay between $38-42K. That’s insane.

ETA: Bolded. My+H’s student loan payments are more (like a fair amount more) than our mortgage.

Seriously. That's a position that's so needed in order to get people out of cycles of violence/poverty/etc., and yet no one wants to go into it because it's emotionally taxing PLUS then there's this bullshit. I considered it, but there's just zero ROI.

short+sassy · July 2019

MyNameIsNot said:

charlotte989875 said:

short+sassy said:

STARMOON44 said:

I think community college should be free, 4 year state college should be significantly lower cost, but I don’t think all college should be free or that all loans should be forgiven. I know it’s not a trendy view but I paid off my 130k in loans, and plenty of other people can afford to do so too. I’d much rather see proposals that focus on improving access for everyone to public 2 and 4 year colleges, providing better and more supportive repayment plans that recognize sometimes 18 year olds just get it wrong, and they shouldn’t be punished for that with 30 years of crippling debt, but also that education is super valuable and important and it’s okay for a college education to be a big deal major expense.

More in the middle like this, is where I think/hope a lot of common ground can be met.

My H and I were just having a disagreement a couple nights ago about existing student debt. I was shocked that he has an attitude that most student debt should be forgiven. WTH?!?! How does that even make any sense? I'm good with maybe some forgiveness, depending on circumstances. I think there are already programs like that in place. I'm definitely good with restructuring plans. Maybe giving people a break on interest rates for student loans. Longer loan terms, if payments are too onerous as compared to income.

But if people agree to take out a loan to pay XYZ. Then they need to pay back XYZ. I may not like that 18 and 20-year-olds are sometimes taking on substantial debt that they don't really understand. But we have a line for that in our society and that line is the age of 18.

Plus, as you pointed out @STARMOON44, it is exceedingly unfair to people who have worked hard to pay their student loans off, sometimes early. Or people like myself who went to a community college first and stayed living at home to save money. Worked my a$$ off at a p/t job the whole time I was in school and specifically went to a state college in my state of residency, so I could graduate without having to take out a student loan.

So I agree people should pay the loans they’re given. I do really support public service loan forgiveness though because it encourages people to serve in lower paying positions (than they might otherwise make).

I have significant student loans. My parents couldn’t afford to send me to the schools I went to. And I wanted to go to those programs to eventually get a job where I could have more opportunities than my parents did.

I don’t and have never expected anyone to pay my loans for me. But my spending power in the economy is otherwise significantly curtailed due to my student loans. Multiply that by thousands (hundreds of thousands) of students and the impact on the economy is substantial. And there have been a bunch of impact studies showing that student loan debt is significantly limiting major purchases like homes, cars, etc. So yes people should pay off what they owe, but at the same time we should consider the impact to the macroeconomy where we have a large portion of young, working adults who can’t put money back into the economy because of their student loans.

This. We have an entire generation of people who's spending is stifled. We're kidding ourselves if we don't think that has an impact on our economy as a whole. Like it or not, if people don't spend, we go into a recession. Impact studies suggest that some student loan forgiveness would have a similar economic effect as the GI Bill after WWII.

On top of that, we need to have some safety nets for people. If you get in over your head in medical bills, consumer debt, personal loans, whatever, you can file bankruptcy. It's not walking away easy, but it does give people a way out rather than just let them drown. 99% of student loans cannot be discharged even in bankruptcy. Add that their interest rates are high and that public service loan forgiveness is often a bait and switch, and you can see how this is snowballing fast.

@charlotte989875, totally agree! I hope I didn't make it sound like I was all the way on one side. Because I think this is another place for middle ground, to help alleviate some of the student debt burden. It is having an impact on the economy. Educational costs (and medical costs) increases have been substantially outpacing inflation for many years. This is part of what has led to the student loan problem. And wages haven't kept up, so now people are coming out of school with a higher debt ratio as compared to the salaries they can expect.

@MyNameIsNot, Great point. In fact, as I was reading your first two sentences, I was thinking the third!

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