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calindi
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Just curious...
This is a big topic on the Military Board, and I wasn't sure how people not directly affiliated with the military feel about it, so I thought it would be interesting to poll.
Let's see if I can summarize without offering too much of my own opinion...
The military puts unusual constraints on relationships. A soldier typically cannot live off base unless he is married, and a significant other is not allowed even to visit base unless accompanied by the service member if they are not married (at which point, the significant other receives their own military ID card). Additionally, it is incredibly hard to set a definite wedding date (usually impossible) because training schedules or deployments change, and the military doesn't care if you have something planned. So brides often end up changing their wedding date at least once, if not several times (you typically put clauses in the contracts with the vendors that you won't lose money to change dates if the military commitment affects the wedding date, but it's still a massive hassle). If a soldier deploys, their significant other cannot be involved in the wives support groups, which typically meet on base, unless they are married (and thus the spouse has access to base).
When you are married, the military pays an additional stipend for housing so you can live off base with your spouse, they cover health insurance for your spouse, and you get paid slightly higher as you have a "dependent". Also, the spouse will be relocated with you.
Because of all this, some soldiers choose to JOP at one point, and then later have a vow renewal that functions as a traditional wedding (complete with white dress, cake, etc.). Some of the soldiers let family and friends know that they have already gotten married legally by JOP, and that the vow renewal is functioning as a religious or cultural wedding in front of family and friends. Some of the soldiers opt to keep the fact that they got married by JOP a secret and have the wedding day (with white dress, cake, etc.) without letting family and friends know that they were already married, yet they let the military know they're married as soon as possible so they can get the benefits for a dependent.
So, what do you think?
Let's see if I can summarize without offering too much of my own opinion...
The military puts unusual constraints on relationships. A soldier typically cannot live off base unless he is married, and a significant other is not allowed even to visit base unless accompanied by the service member if they are not married (at which point, the significant other receives their own military ID card). Additionally, it is incredibly hard to set a definite wedding date (usually impossible) because training schedules or deployments change, and the military doesn't care if you have something planned. So brides often end up changing their wedding date at least once, if not several times (you typically put clauses in the contracts with the vendors that you won't lose money to change dates if the military commitment affects the wedding date, but it's still a massive hassle). If a soldier deploys, their significant other cannot be involved in the wives support groups, which typically meet on base, unless they are married (and thus the spouse has access to base).
When you are married, the military pays an additional stipend for housing so you can live off base with your spouse, they cover health insurance for your spouse, and you get paid slightly higher as you have a "dependent". Also, the spouse will be relocated with you.
Because of all this, some soldiers choose to JOP at one point, and then later have a vow renewal that functions as a traditional wedding (complete with white dress, cake, etc.). Some of the soldiers let family and friends know that they have already gotten married legally by JOP, and that the vow renewal is functioning as a religious or cultural wedding in front of family and friends. Some of the soldiers opt to keep the fact that they got married by JOP a secret and have the wedding day (with white dress, cake, etc.) without letting family and friends know that they were already married, yet they let the military know they're married as soon as possible so they can get the benefits for a dependent.
So, what do you think?
This discussion has been closed.
Re: Just curious...
As far as the single people not living off base - at least in the AF - if you are under a certain rank and not married they want you on base. Once you have been in a few years and if you are still single they give you the BHA like everyone else.
Back to your question. For the most part if a couple is at a point they are ready to get married but the military is interferring (they are really really good at throwing a wrench in things - in general - not just weddings) and they can't plan out a traditional wedding I don't see a problem with them JOP'ing it and then holding the ceremony/party at a later point. I think it would be best to do that if the party part is not years after they JOP it.
[QUOTE]As far as the single people not living off base - at least in the AF - if you are under a certain rank and not married they want you on base. Once you have been in a few years and if you are still single they give you the BHA like everyone else
Posted by loopy82[/QUOTE]
It depends on the base and the service - they're trying to keep more and more people on base in barracks because it cuts down on costs, so as long as they have the space, they're not likely to allow unmarried soldiers/Marines/sailors/airmen off base. It's part of new cost-cutting measures.
[QUOTE]Back to your question. For the most part if a couple is at a point they are ready to get married but the military is interferring (they are really really good at throwing a wrench in things - in general - not just weddings) and they can't plan out a traditional wedding I don't see a problem with them JOP'ing it and then holding the ceremony/party at a later point. <strong>I think it would be best to do that if the party part is not years after they JOP it.
</strong>Posted by loopy82[/QUOTE]
I agree with this. I think timing is everything. If they want to get married before a deployment, for for housing purposes, and are in a stable relationship and were going to do it eventually anyway, then go for it. But you can't wait years to have a big party. So I'm all for it, but almost on a one-on-one basis?
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I can see valid points on both sides of the "argument". It sucks that it can be difficult for people in the military to make typical plans like choosing a wedding date. I can't imagine what it must feel like to know that your partner will be deployed so I can understand wanting to have JOP ceremony rather than just sit and wonder.
On the other hand, if I had been in that position and had a civil ceremony, I can't imagine that I would also want the vow renewal later. Certainly not with the big party. It would just feel weird to me. I would already feel married and so that would seem unnecessary. Since I'm Catholic, I would want a blessing. Then again, that's also probably something I would try to have in the original ceremony to begin with.
I don't have a problem with people having vow renewal/weddings after they JOP due to military constraints, so long as they are up front with everyone from the get-go.
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I work for the Army and in most cases, soldiers know they are going to deploy about a year before it actually happens. They may not know a specific date, but it is usually within a two week time frame. With that said, it gives plenty of time to plan a wedding around the time that soldier will be deployed, whether they choose to do it before he/she leaves, or wait until he/she comes home. I do realize this is not the case every time, this is just from what I have seen.
With that said, I think JOP'ing is fine and completely the choice of the couple getting married, but I do think sometimes it happens for the wrong reasons. Soldiers are paid a lot more money when they deploy if they are married than if they are single, and I have seen a lot of instances where that is the sole reason for JOP'ing beforehand. They want that extra benefit, without realizing the implications of the added stress that brings to a brand new marriage.
My ex and I actually had friends back in NY that JOP'd it and had the big wedding later. They did it mostly for financial and health-insurance-related reasons. They told my ex and me, but kept it kind of hush-hush with people they weren't as close to. I understood and we had a great time at their wedding. During the ceremony, which was beautiful, it didn't even cross my mind. I would hope that family and friends would understand a couple's reasons. Unless there were extenuating circumstances, like military constraints, I wouldn't want to do it myself. Also agree with PPs that it's a little weird and anticlimactic to wait years.
That said, I firmly believe it's to each his own. I'm not judging anyone.
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I see JOP then vow renewal like I see destination weddings with an at-home reception - if that's how someone wants to do it, fine. I do totally get that sometimes scheduling a wedding with someone in the military is tough, even when they're not deployed or getting deployed. So I won't judge that decision.
That said, you're either married, or you're not, so it's silly to JOP and then claim you're not married until you get to put on a white dress and cut a cake. And it's especially insulting when you JOP, then claim to everyone in your life that you're not married yet EXCEPT the military, who you accept benefits from (additional pay, BAH allowance, medical insurance, relocation assitance, etc.). If you aren't telling your family and friends you are married, then you shouldn't be accepting the real financial benefits that taxpayers pay for that are intended for married couples.
So basically, as long as they don't lie about being married, I don't care at all.
When there are extenuating circumstances (and this doesn't not include "a bad economy" because that affects everyone, not just one couple) like the military, then that's different. Part of the choice is out of their control.
That's just my reasoning, and I understand it but I also wouldn't make a huge fuss about it if someone did do it.
[QUOTE]If you aren't telling your family and friends you are married, then you shouldn't be accepting the real financial benefits that taxpayers pay for that are intended for married couples.
Posted by calindi[/QUOTE]
That's a pretty solid point.
I really think if you want a big white wedding, you only get one shot. The wedding isn't about the pretty decorations and dress and food. It's about family, friends, and the couple committing themselves to one another.
But I also don't get a raise when I get married, so I'm bitter.
[QUOTE]Since I won't be tilting the poll towards my own opinions (as it already seems 18/20 of you agree with me), I'll tell you what I think about it all. I see JOP then vow renewal like I see destination weddings with an at-home reception - if that's how someone wants to do it, fine. I do totally get that sometimes scheduling a wedding with someone in the military is tough, even when they're not deployed or getting deployed. So I won't judge that decision. That said, you're either married, or you're not, so it's silly to JOP and then claim you're not married until you get to put on a white dress and cut a cake. And it's especially insulting when you JOP, then claim to everyone in your life that you're not married yet EXCEPT the military, who you accept benefits from <strong>(additional pay, BAH allowance, medical insurance, relocation assitance, etc.</strong>). If you aren't telling your family and friends you are married, then you shouldn't be accepting the real financial benefits that taxpayers pay for that are intended for married couples. So basically, as long as they don't lie about being married, I don't care at all.
Posted by calindi[/QUOTE]
<div>A bunch of these things (insurance, relo assistance) apply not just to military folks. I relocated for work 2 years ago and would have received an additional 20% relo pay, as well as an extra week for house hunting if I had been married. My (hypothetical) spouse would have received the equivalent of 6 months of their pay in benefits. My BF and I live together and would love to be able to drop my insurance, but we're not married. Insurance, relocation, taxes are benefits for married couples in and out of the military, so basing an argument on these rights doesn't feel right to me. I think the only valid benefit you've listed is the spousal access to base.
<div>
</div><div>That said, I really don't care if people want to JOP it, then have a reception. I do find it odd that people want to have a church vow renewal with a minister, walk down the aisle, "wedding" party, etc. This seems to suggest to me that they're trying to have the "wedding" without calling it that, but you do only get one wedding to your spouse.</div></div>
That being said, my first husband is in the military. We planned our wedding in 6 months and didn't have to change the date from what we originally planned. We hadn't even thought of JOPing just for the benefits.
Back in '05 they didn't have to live on base housing until married. ExH rented a house with 2 other military buddies. They all were E2 and E3 back then. I remember not too long after though they had changed the rules.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Just curious... : A bunch of these things (insurance, relo assistance) apply not just to military folks.
I do find it odd that people want to have a church vow renewal with a minister, walk down the aisle, "wedding" party, etc. This seems to suggest to me that <strong>they're trying to have the "wedding" without calling it that</strong>, but you do only get one wedding to your spouse.
Posted by Schrodinger[/QUOTE]
First, that's a very good point. The military isn't special because it's sometimes more convenient to be married. Health insurance is a key argument, and as you pointed out, relocation assistance.
And second, they call the day with the white dress, cake, etc. their "wedding". They typically try to justify the JOP as "simply filling out some paperwork." They don't think they're really "married" if they haven't had a "wedding", so that's why they don't tell people that they JOP'd.
If BF were in the military (he's not), I would be trying to convince him right now into JOPing it so I could get on his health insurance. It's really hard for me to get coverage due to several pre-existing conditions and I spend a LOT of money on my medications (even employer-provided healthcare usually ends up having several riders attached). However, I wouldn't think that means that we forgo the right to celebrate our commitment with our family and friends, and I wouldn't think we had to tell anyone that its not our "real wedding".
I do think that there's a difference between "not telling anyone" and "lying about it" though. If anyone straight up asked, I would tell them the truth, but really, I don't see the problem with writing "Come celebrate our union" or something similar on the invitations and just letting people infer whatever.
I think that all too often deployments and these other 'issues' are used as excuses to get married too soon (and too young.) I could go on and on about the number of couples I saw do just that.
I firmly believe that couples should go through a deployment before even getting engaged. I know couples who have planned 'white-dress-weddings' with little time or changed their plans last minute. I think that being flexible is a key ingredient for a successful marriage when one person is a member of the military.
There are going to be hundreds more times when the military effs up your plans. Suck it up and get used to it. If you cannot deal with it, then you are going to be in for a long, difficult road.
That said, people should do whatever is best for them. I have more acceptance when a couple is upfront about what they did.
[QUOTE]I think that being flexible is a key ingredient for a successful marriage when one person is a member of the military. There are going to be hundreds more times when the military effs up your plans. Suck it up and get used to it. If you cannot deal with it, then you are going to be in for a <strong>long, difficult road. </strong>
Posted by **Mutley**[/QUOTE]
Or a very short road to divorce court.
[QUOTE]In Response to Re: Just curious... : Or a very short road to divorce court.
Posted by calindi[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
The comparison of a destination wedding and a AHR doesn't hold weight with me. I think that having the whole wedding deal at an AHR is in poor taste. I would side-eye anyone who wore a full out wedding dress and had another ceremony at an AHR.
I think that having a whole big celebration after having a JOP makes light of the JOP ceremony. I think that marriage is a BIG EFFING DEAL. I think that the ceremony where you GET married is a BIG EFFING DEAL. I think that if you want to celebrate your marriage with your family that is one thing but it should not be another 'wedding' with a white dress, a wedding party or a giant reception.
And if religion is so important to you that you feel a religious ceremony is important for your marriage to be recognized, then you wouldn't down play marriage by acting as a married couple for the government to receive benefits.
What I find more interesting is that married members of the military get paid more. I know that people have to move often and that might make it more difficult to have a job, but do military spouses not work? I can't think of any other job where one gets paid differently based on marital status. In fact, I think in any other industry that would be considered discrimination.
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[QUOTE]What I find more interesting is that married members of the military get paid more. I know that people have to move often and that might make it more difficult to have a job, but do military spouses not work? I can't think of any other job where one gets paid differently based on marital status. In fact, I think in any other industry that would be considered discrimination.
Posted by leia1979[/QUOTE]
They do not get paid more. They are given a Basic Allowance for Housing and receive separation pay depending upon where they are sent (when it is away from their permanent duty station.) Some people get married so that they can bank the BAH while they live at home during deployments.
If an unmarried service member is approved for living in off-base housing, he/she would also receive BAH but not at the dependent level. If a married service member lives in base-housing, he/she does NOT receive BAH.
[QUOTE]I went with option two because I feel like people are gonna do whatever they're gonna do. As long as they don't lie about it, I'm cool. What I find more interesting is that married members of the military get paid more. I know that people have to move often and that might make it more difficult to have a job, but do military spouses not work? I can't think of any other job where one gets paid differently based on marital status. In fact, I think in any other industry that would be considered discrimination.
Posted by leia1979[/QUOTE]
It's not significantly more, except when they're deployed. Normally, it's a slight stipend in their check, probably around $100/month from what I've been told, and it depends on their rank (higher ranks get more money, but not much). But when they're deployed, it's called Separation Pay, and it's supposed to help make up for the fact that you're away from loved ones, and to cover expenses like phone calls (in the old days, when there wasn't Skype) and sending packages.
They also get a small stipend for having children. Again, not much. But you better believe some 18 year olds see it as incentive to get pregnant as soon as they rush to the altar.
I don't see it as discriminatory because it's not just for wives of men in the military - it works for husbands of the women who serve. It is definitely more difficult to find work as you're being moved around every 2 years, so many spouses opt not to work or do something mobile, like an ebay store or selling crafts on Etsy.