Fri-yay!

levioosa · November 2020

charlotte989875 said:

I feel a lot differently about student loan debt than most of what has been said here, but here’s my general question; if two people graduated at the same time, with the same degree- one found a high paying job in their field, with a spouse who was also making a good wage and paid back their loan and the other couldn’t find a job, or had to take a lower paying job because they needed to care for kids/a spouse/a parent and couldn’t pay back their loan in the same period. Why does it matter to person 1 of person 2s loans are forgiven and theirs aren’t? You’re not harmed by that at all.

Same. My opinions about student loan debt are like a 180 from what’s been said here.

kerbohl · November 2020

I got my Masters in the Netherlands. Because I was a Dutch citizen, the government paid for my tuition and also gave me money every month for my living expenses. They do that for everyone. Do the Dutch pay an exorbitant amount in taxes? Yes. Have they been #1 for the happiness of their children for multiple years? Yes. Dutch children are recognized world wide as being the most content. And part of that might be that they aren't stressed about not affording their futures.
Am I saying the Dutch system is the best? Oh, goodness no. There's a lot going on that shouldn't be. But I do know that when I lived there, I felt taken care of and also felt like part of a community. There are positives. And even though it is a "free ride", students work hard. Though I was at the Masters level, so maybe it isn't the same in the undergrad level.

banana468 · November 2020

charlotte989875 said:

I feel a lot differently about student loan debt than most of what has been said here, but here’s my general question; if two people graduated at the same time, with the same degree- one found a high paying job in their field, with a spouse who was also making a good wage and paid back their loan and the other couldn’t find a job, or had to take a lower paying job because they needed to care for kids/a spouse/a parent and couldn’t pay back their loan in the same period. Why does it matter to person 1 of person 2s loans are forgiven and theirs aren’t? You’re not harmed by that at all.

That's the argument against it.

If DH and I paid off his loans and now our tax dollars are going to paying off the loans of someone else then ultimately I'm paying towards the same degree twice.

It further negates the point of a loan which is supposed to be paid back. I have an inherent issue with student loans in general because it's the only loan that you don't have to prove you can pay off when you get it. But the point remains that a loan needs to be paid off. Furthermore, I'll still assert my point above - one of the reasons that we have such issues with loans is that the cost of college education continues to skyrocket. We need a remedy that approaches why this cost is going up and forgiving student loans is a band aid on the problem which is really the high cost of education.

I don't think you can compare the US to a country where higher education is free when we have such economic issues that need to be addressed (and access to healthcare).

mrsconn23 · November 2020

Our taxes pay for A LOT of shit that none of us have or will benefit from or that actively hurts us or this country. If our military budget can be flirting with a trillion dollars annually, and we're technically not at war (yes, we have a '20 year war' issue), we're giving corporations getting massive tax breaks, and don't even get me started on private prisons, then why can't we forgive student debt AND reform public university tuition structures? Or at the very least, work out some sort of program where interest is cut to zero and there's a cap on how long you pay? Something other than what is currently the status quo.

If you do have children and they want to go to college, unless you're going to have $100k per child saved by the time they go to college and/or they don't qualify for grants, scholarships, or other assistance, your child is probably going need student loans if we don't change something about the cost of college. This will affect most people's families eventually.

If reforms were made, we could ensure future generations don't have to move back home to work at Starbucks after college to afford a $500/month student loan payment and be shamed for having avocado toast once a month. People are putting off living life because of student loans. Study after study shows people put off buying houses, getting married, having kids, etc because their student loan debt is so prohibitive to doing those things.

We need a national reckoning about college in general. Higher Ed isn't for everyone (it wasn't for me). We don't have enough skilled tradespeople in this country. People are practically getting PAID to go to trade school and then can make close to 6 figures within the first 10 years. Our push to have every high schooler be on track for college is harmful, IMO.

Furthermore, why the hell are public institutions allowed this carte blanche to raise tuition year over year and never be scrutinized? Our public university system is a damn racket with very little oversight or accountability. Adjunct professors are working full time for peanuts, no benefits, or safety net. Classes are being taught by TA's and students never see a professor at all. But college boards and the NCAA are beasts that continually need to be fed with billions of dollars a year.

And all this ^ is the just the tip of the iceberg for the arguments for why student loan debt forgiveness is something we need to stop focusing on as negative and/or see the benefits of, even if you paid your loans off. This 'debate' is another way to stir up us taxpayers to fight with one another instead of seeing how fucked our system is and demanding change.

/rant

Happy Monday, LOL.

charlotte989875 · November 2020

Well @mrsconn23 said everything I was going to do I’ll just add this. We’re limiting the spending power of generations because of student loans & the price of higher ed. It’s not for everyone but it shouldn’t only be for the people who can afford it. Higher ed can be an incredible equalizer in this country, or it can continue to depend class divides.

cupcait927 · November 2020

@mrsconn23 You hit the nail on the head with your response. Specific to myself, H and I are still living in our tiny starter home, didn't have a baby until our mid-30s, and most likely won't be able to have another child in large part due to the student loan debt we had to pay off. I still owe $15k for my degree (graduated in '08, came out with $50k in debt). Combine that with the $18k we had to pay for DD this year (medical costs & debt are an entire other issue), there's no way we can save for a down payment on a new home, pay the mortgage, pay our loans off, save fore retirement and have another child. So we're sacrificing expanding our family because we have no other choice.

banana468 · November 2020

@mrsconn23 I do agree with a lot of what you said. I'm not completely opposed to making changes to the debts that exist and reforming them. My stance is that forgiving (as in - removing all aspects of the loan entirely) is not the way to go about doing it. I don't have the complete answer but in the long term, if there is debt that goes unpaid it gets paid for SOMEWHERE. And the institutions that charge these exorbitant costs will get their money somehow.

DH and I are also in the similar vein knowing that it does not make sense to have purchased a larger house and we have to have a huge amount of savings in order to get our kids into college which is approaching faster than we realize. I still have OLD (came with the house that we closed on 10 years ago old) carpet on the floors and wood paneling on the walls. All of this comes into play into how we live.

And I am with you in that my largest gripe IS in how many public institutions go unchecked. They are PUBLIC. There needs to be more oversight.

I'm certainly in favor of changes to student loans and reforming them.

MissKittyDanger · November 2020

Adding on this.
M applied for college in - maybe '08?
$90 to apply, and then about same to accept it.

BIL is applying for teacher's college. $250 to apply, and then he said probably around same amount IF he is accepted.

WTF!

Another friend of mine has been working as a teacher since he left college {he was lucky a position opened up} but he will never be anywhere close to paying off his loans for a long time because he is living on his own {his spouse gets minimal income}

I still have $6k left on my loan {graduated in '07 ish with $10k} and our only hope to pay it off is to basically surge money into it OR when we move we can use some equity {which we've entertained}

mrsconn23 · November 2020

banana468 said:

@mrsconn23 I do agree with a lot of what you said. I'm not completely opposed to making changes to the debts that exist and reforming them. My stance is that forgiving (as in - removing all aspects of the loan entirely) is not the way to go about doing it. I don't have the complete answer but in the long term, if there is debt that goes unpaid it gets paid for SOMEWHERE. And the institutions that charge these exorbitant costs will get their money somehow.

If corporations paid their fair share of taxes AND we scrutinized the military budget (BIL is nearing retirement from the military and therefore pretty high up in rank, he had $$$ to spend at the end of last year and was pressured to spend it. He bought his team some super high end shit they do not need for their every day jobs just to spend it so they could show they spent it all and therefore need more money this year...let's extrapolate that out to every level of the military, because it's a top down thing), taxes would not have to go up for you or me and that debt would be paid immediately.

I also firmly believe reform needs to go along with the forgiveness aspect. It cannot be a bandaid, it has to be actual change. However, the math is very clear that 'forgiveness' is almost an immediate stimulus. But so would reducing interest rates to 0-1%.

missJeanLouise · November 2020

DH and I literally moved to the other side of the world to be able to pay off his student loans. I will do everything I can to encourage DS to attend university abroad.

ei34 · November 2020

Bravo @mrsconn23
Just chiming in that the best society is equitable, not equal. We don’t know what factors lead to some people being able to pay off students loans more successfully than others. Think of the kid who had the bilingual nanny as an infant and attended the $35,000 Montessori preschool and then private schools and fancy SAT courses and tutors sitting for the same SAT as the kid living in a shelter who qualified for the fee waived from the test and colleges comparing both of their scores bc they need a “fair” way to compare students. (Weak-ish example, I know fewer colleges are requiring SAT scores.)

On the other side of the coin, in my guidance counselor years I saw many students who were accepted to the $15,000/yr state schools choose the $80,000/yr private colleges because they liked the latter more. With a deaf ear when I painted the post-college picture. Between my own personal choices and lots of side jobs I got through undergrad and my Master’s without a cent in debt. So I get where the argument against loan forgiveness comes from. But i feel a lot more strongly about my first paragraph.

cupcait927 · November 2020

@ei34 Speaking to your second paragraph - I fully accept my part in my student loan debt. I chose a private school over the state school and while I received a ton of aid (some I had to pay back, some I didn't), I still came out with the equivalent of a year's tuition. I've never defaulted or missed a payment, but it's insane to me that 18 year olds are allowed to sign for loans that will take them decades to pay back.

H took a different approach to college - he enrolled in a program that allowed him to complete the 1st year of community college in conjunction with his senior year of high school. He did one more year at CC then transferred to a SUNY school for his last 2 years. While he still had debt when he graduated, we paid off his loans 3 years ago (so it still took almost 10 years to pay off). We're going to do as much as we can to educate DD about her choices for college (or trade school, or even no college) when it comes time.

banana468 · November 2020

ei34 said:

Bravo @mrsconn23
Just chiming in that the best society is equitable, not equal. We don’t know what factors lead to some people being able to pay off students loans more successfully than others. Think of the kid who had the bilingual nanny as an infant and attended the $35,000 Montessori preschool and then private schools and fancy SAT courses and tutors sitting for the same SAT as the kid living in a shelter who qualified for the fee waived from the test and colleges comparing both of their scores bc they need a “fair” way to compare students. (Weak-ish example, I know fewer colleges are requiring SAT scores.)

On the other side of the coin, in my guidance counselor years I saw many students who were accepted to the $15,000/yr state schools choose the $80,000/yr private colleges because they liked the latter more. With a deaf ear when I painted the post-college picture. Between my own personal choices and lots of side jobs I got through undergrad and my Master’s without a cent in debt. So I get where the argument against loan forgiveness comes from. But i feel a lot more strongly about my first paragraph.

I think this is where my bias comes from and I'll admit that a lot of it is due to my current location and where I grew up.

In my HS students said, "My mom and dad will GIVE me a car if I go to the state school but I don't want to go there so I'm applying to go to either Duke, Tufts, Brandeis, Carnegie Mellon or BU." These aren't that farfetched. Or DH's best friend has the SAME DEGREE as DH but went to CMU vs. the state school. They are both well employed at their jobs and DH's loans were paid off earlier based on the cost. In my senior year AP Spanish class we put up next to our photos the schools we applied to. I was one of the VERY FEW students who put up the state school as both applied to and chosen. It was considered a "safety" while peers were absolutely name dropping the private schools and choosing them.

For the situation spied in my peers this was a willful decision to avoid the lower cost option due to to the image associated with going to a school in "cow tipping country" when that school at the time was by far more economical.

charlotte989875 · November 2020

I went to a private schools, twice; for undergrad & my masters and I know that network and name recognition has helped in both in getting into grad school & in my career. It sucks but that is the reality of many professions. I don’t think it should be that way, but that is the case in a lot of industries.

And honestly depending on the field you may in fact be getting a better education at a small, liberal arts/ ivy school. I taught a lot of classes as a grad student at my state flagship where I did my PhD. My students were not getting the same quality that I did as an undergrad learning from experts in the field. And that access to networks and experts shouldn’t be just for those who can pay for it.

I know I’ll be paying back my loans for the rest of time. I made that choice at 18. But the schools (& opportunities they gave me) have changed the trajectory of my life & career. I grew up in a rural small town & my parents didn’t go to college; now I run a team at a successful bank. I am the example that education can change someone’s economic circumstances significantly. I obviously don’t know the counter factual here but getting out of my rural small town and into a completely different environment was the right choice for me. And I didn’t pick an expensive school just because I liked it better. It gave me a different life. I don’t expect anyone else to pay for that life either. But I also don’t think it should be limited only to those who can pay or who are willing to tie their financial future to student loans.

We need real reform. But part of that should be forgiving loans. We are hamstringing the spending power of an entire generation (or more), the consequences of which we’re just starting to see.

flantastic · November 2020

charlotte989875 said:

I went to a private schools, twice; for undergrad & my masters and I know that network and name recognition has helped in both in getting into grad school & in my career. It sucks but that is the reality of many professions. I don’t think it should be that way, but that is the case in a lot of industries.

And honestly depending on the field you may in fact be getting a better education at a small, liberal arts/ ivy school. I taught a lot of classes as a grad student at my state flagship where I did my PhD. My students were not getting the same quality that I did as an undergrad learning from experts in the field. And that access to networks and experts shouldn’t be just for those who can pay for it.

I know I’ll be paying back my loans for the rest of time. I made that choice at 18. But the schools (& opportunities they gave me) have changed the trajectory of my life & career. I grew up in a rural small town & my parents didn’t go to college; now I run a team at a successful bank. I am the example that education can change someone’s economic circumstances significantly. I obviously don’t know the counter factual here but getting out of my rural small town and into a completely different environment was the right choice for me. And I didn’t pick an expensive school just because I liked it better. It gave me a different life. I don’t expect anyone else to pay for that life either. But I also don’t think it should be limited only to those who can pay or who are willing to tie their financial future to student loans.

We need real reform. But part of that should be forgiving loans. We are hamstringing the spending power of an entire generation (or more), the consequences of which we’re just starting to see.

I got my job because of the school I went to. I would not have had my degree program at many other schools, and of the schools that offer it mine was far and away the best, which is part of what caused my employer to trust me off the bat. And I only applied to graduate programs for which I would be receiving a stipend.

If my parents had not helped me some, qualified for financial aid, etc., I would not have been able to attend this school - which is a problem with its skyrocketing costs, first and foremost. I would not be qualified for the job I'm in. I would not be able to live this life.

Obviously people have to shift away from their "ideal" career choices for monetary reasons all the time, but the professions our economy values and therefore make "wise" choices to pursue are also skewed. I'm seeing a friend's BF who is a ballet dancer try to plan for his next career, and it's honestly a little sad the way his choices and economic prospects now are limited because he did what he needed to do to become a professional dancer.

STARMOON44 · November 2020

levioosa said:

charlotte989875 said:

I feel a lot differently about student loan debt than most of what has been said here, but here’s my general question; if two people graduated at the same time, with the same degree- one found a high paying job in their field, with a spouse who was also making a good wage and paid back their loan and the other couldn’t find a job, or had to take a lower paying job because they needed to care for kids/a spouse/a parent and couldn’t pay back their loan in the same period. Why does it matter to person 1 of person 2s loans are forgiven and theirs aren’t? You’re not harmed by that at all.

Same. My opinions about student loan debt are like a 180 from what’s been said here.

I graduated law school with 130k in debt and think about this a lot. I paid off my debt in 10 years. I was fortunate to have a job that allowed me to do that, but also I prioritized it and sacrificed. I drove a 15 year old car. I worked really hard at a job I didn’t like. I usually paid $1200 a month, so I haven’t been able to save up enough to buy a house. I have a friend who graduated with the same amount of debt who has always worked a job with the same salary as me. She’s made minimal progress on her loans- pays maybe $300 a month- and instead now owns a vacation house, and a townhouse, and quite a bit of expensive jewelry. It’s entirely possible any debt forgiveness plan would exclude her based on income, but I think this situation happens at lower income levels too. Why should person A, who worked really hard to pay off their loans last year, get nothing and person B, who didn’t prioritize their loans, get forgiveness?

banana468 · November 2020

STARMOON44 said:

levioosa said:

charlotte989875 said:

I feel a lot differently about student loan debt than most of what has been said here, but here’s my general question; if two people graduated at the same time, with the same degree- one found a high paying job in their field, with a spouse who was also making a good wage and paid back their loan and the other couldn’t find a job, or had to take a lower paying job because they needed to care for kids/a spouse/a parent and couldn’t pay back their loan in the same period. Why does it matter to person 1 of person 2s loans are forgiven and theirs aren’t? You’re not harmed by that at all.

Same. My opinions about student loan debt are like a 180 from what’s been said here.

I graduated law school with 130k in debt and think about this a lot. I paid off my debt in 10 years. I was fortunate to have a job that allowed me to do that, but also I prioritized it and sacrificed. I drove a 15 year old car. I worked really hard at a job I didn’t like. I usually paid $1200 a month, so I haven’t been able to save up enough to buy a house. I have a friend who graduated with the same amount of debt who has always worked a job with the same salary as me. She’s made minimal progress on her loans- pays maybe $300 a month- and instead now owns a vacation house, and a townhouse, and quite a bit of expensive jewelry. It’s entirely possible any debt forgiveness plan would exclude her based on income, but I think this situation happens at lower income levels too. Why should person A, who worked really hard to pay off their loans last year, get nothing and person B, who didn’t prioritize their loans, get forgiveness?

I think that's a lot of what I argue.

I agree the systems as a whole are flawed (and prior to the skyrocketing costs I loved the Apple program that existed in the 90s for the state universities in NE where you would get in-state rates if you attended a school that had a major not offered at your state school. Example: many Massachusetts students attended UConn because it offered a Pharmacy degree).

STARMOON44 · November 2020

banana468 said:

STARMOON44 said:

levioosa said:

charlotte989875 said:

I feel a lot differently about student loan debt than most of what has been said here, but here’s my general question; if two people graduated at the same time, with the same degree- one found a high paying job in their field, with a spouse who was also making a good wage and paid back their loan and the other couldn’t find a job, or had to take a lower paying job because they needed to care for kids/a spouse/a parent and couldn’t pay back their loan in the same period. Why does it matter to person 1 of person 2s loans are forgiven and theirs aren’t? You’re not harmed by that at all.

Same. My opinions about student loan debt are like a 180 from what’s been said here.

I graduated law school with 130k in debt and think about this a lot. I paid off my debt in 10 years. I was fortunate to have a job that allowed me to do that, but also I prioritized it and sacrificed. I drove a 15 year old car. I worked really hard at a job I didn’t like. I usually paid $1200 a month, so I haven’t been able to save up enough to buy a house. I have a friend who graduated with the same amount of debt who has always worked a job with the same salary as me. She’s made minimal progress on her loans- pays maybe $300 a month- and instead now owns a vacation house, and a townhouse, and quite a bit of expensive jewelry. It’s entirely possible any debt forgiveness plan would exclude her based on income, but I think this situation happens at lower income levels too. Why should person A, who worked really hard to pay off their loans last year, get nothing and person B, who didn’t prioritize their loans, get forgiveness?

I think that's a lot of what I argue.

I agree the systems as a whole are flawed (and prior to the skyrocketing costs I loved the Apple program that existed in the 90s for the state universities in NE where you would get in-state rates if you attended a school that had a major not offered at your state school. Example: many Massachusetts students attended UConn because it offered a Pharmacy degree).

I’m not even sure I really oppose loan forgiveness entirely. I think some measure of it probably is necessary. But I think there are legitimate reasons why people oppose it.

banana468 · November 2020

STARMOON44 said:

banana468 said:

STARMOON44 said:

levioosa said:

charlotte989875 said:

I feel a lot differently about student loan debt than most of what has been said here, but here’s my general question; if two people graduated at the same time, with the same degree- one found a high paying job in their field, with a spouse who was also making a good wage and paid back their loan and the other couldn’t find a job, or had to take a lower paying job because they needed to care for kids/a spouse/a parent and couldn’t pay back their loan in the same period. Why does it matter to person 1 of person 2s loans are forgiven and theirs aren’t? You’re not harmed by that at all.

Same. My opinions about student loan debt are like a 180 from what’s been said here.

I graduated law school with 130k in debt and think about this a lot. I paid off my debt in 10 years. I was fortunate to have a job that allowed me to do that, but also I prioritized it and sacrificed. I drove a 15 year old car. I worked really hard at a job I didn’t like. I usually paid $1200 a month, so I haven’t been able to save up enough to buy a house. I have a friend who graduated with the same amount of debt who has always worked a job with the same salary as me. She’s made minimal progress on her loans- pays maybe $300 a month- and instead now owns a vacation house, and a townhouse, and quite a bit of expensive jewelry. It’s entirely possible any debt forgiveness plan would exclude her based on income, but I think this situation happens at lower income levels too. Why should person A, who worked really hard to pay off their loans last year, get nothing and person B, who didn’t prioritize their loans, get forgiveness?

I think that's a lot of what I argue.

I agree the systems as a whole are flawed (and prior to the skyrocketing costs I loved the Apple program that existed in the 90s for the state universities in NE where you would get in-state rates if you attended a school that had a major not offered at your state school. Example: many Massachusetts students attended UConn because it offered a Pharmacy degree).

I’m not even sure I really oppose loan forgiveness entirely. I think some measure of it probably is necessary. But I think there are legitimate reasons why people oppose it.

That's my point too.

I'm not opposed to it entirely. I would like to see what kind of options are proposed.

The closest thing I can compare it to in concept is "Defund the Police." At first concept I was not in favor of it as IMO we do need law enforcement. However upon listening to what is proposed in that concept I am in agreement that there is a need to divert some of the funding towards law enforcement to social programs and professions. A social worker and psychologist can help deescalate a situation and can help avoid a lot of the needless violence and arrests when those without the training resort to reactionary force.

I would welcome proposals of ways to reduce the loan amounts, forgive the debt entirely for some, etc. What I do not welcome is a blanket loan erasure for those who have them.

charlotte989875 · November 2020

STARMOON44 said:

levioosa said:

charlotte989875 said:

I feel a lot differently about student loan debt than most of what has been said here, but here’s my general question; if two people graduated at the same time, with the same degree- one found a high paying job in their field, with a spouse who was also making a good wage and paid back their loan and the other couldn’t find a job, or had to take a lower paying job because they needed to care for kids/a spouse/a parent and couldn’t pay back their loan in the same period. Why does it matter to person 1 of person 2s loans are forgiven and theirs aren’t? You’re not harmed by that at all.

Same. My opinions about student loan debt are like a 180 from what’s been said here.

I graduated law school with 130k in debt and think about this a lot. I paid off my debt in 10 years. I was fortunate to have a job that allowed me to do that, but also I prioritized it and sacrificed. I drove a 15 year old car. I worked really hard at a job I didn’t like. I usually paid $1200 a month, so I haven’t been able to save up enough to buy a house. I have a friend who graduated with the same amount of debt who has always worked a job with the same salary as me. She’s made minimal progress on her loans- pays maybe $300 a month- and instead now owns a vacation house, and a townhouse, and quite a bit of expensive jewelry. It’s entirely possible any debt forgiveness plan would exclude her based on income, but I think this situation happens at lower income levels too. Why should person A, who worked really hard to pay off their loans last year, get nothing and person B, who didn’t prioritize their loans, get forgiveness?

But why does it matter to you what happens in someone else’s finances?

At the individual level I get why this is frustrating; you think you did things the “right” way while someone else is doing it the “wrong” way and they’re going to get loans forgiven and you paid them back. And if we just look at the individual level then we probably never change the system.

But look at it in the aggregate- at all the people who are prioritizing, and scrimping, and saving and also can’t afford a house or car or whatever. The impact on the economy of all of those people not spending on these big items, not just for 10 or 15 years but for the majority/all of their highly productive years. We’re all much worse off if there’s not enough spending to maintain our current economic system. And yes there may be some people, like your friend, that are going to benefit even when they could have made different choices and paid back the loans, but is making sure they have to pay everything back worth hampering the economy for years and helping people who couldn’t have made that same choice?

STARMOON44 · November 2020

charlotte989875 said:

STARMOON44 said:

levioosa said:

charlotte989875 said:

I feel a lot differently about student loan debt than most of what has been said here, but here’s my general question; if two people graduated at the same time, with the same degree- one found a high paying job in their field, with a spouse who was also making a good wage and paid back their loan and the other couldn’t find a job, or had to take a lower paying job because they needed to care for kids/a spouse/a parent and couldn’t pay back their loan in the same period. Why does it matter to person 1 of person 2s loans are forgiven and theirs aren’t? You’re not harmed by that at all.

Same. My opinions about student loan debt are like a 180 from what’s been said here.

I graduated law school with 130k in debt and think about this a lot. I paid off my debt in 10 years. I was fortunate to have a job that allowed me to do that, but also I prioritized it and sacrificed. I drove a 15 year old car. I worked really hard at a job I didn’t like. I usually paid $1200 a month, so I haven’t been able to save up enough to buy a house. I have a friend who graduated with the same amount of debt who has always worked a job with the same salary as me. She’s made minimal progress on her loans- pays maybe $300 a month- and instead now owns a vacation house, and a townhouse, and quite a bit of expensive jewelry. It’s entirely possible any debt forgiveness plan would exclude her based on income, but I think this situation happens at lower income levels too. Why should person A, who worked really hard to pay off their loans last year, get nothing and person B, who didn’t prioritize their loans, get forgiveness?

But why does it matter to you what happens in someone else’s finances?

At the individual level I get why this is frustrating; you think you did things the “right” way while someone else is doing it the “wrong” way and they’re going to get loans forgiven and you paid them back. And if we just look at the individual level then we probably never change the system.

But look at it in the aggregate- at all the people who are prioritizing, and scrimping, and saving and also can’t afford a house or car or whatever. The impact on the economy of all of those people not spending on these big items, not just for 10 or 15 years but for the majority/all of their highly productive years. We’re all much worse off if there’s not enough spending to maintain our current economic system. And yes there may be some people, like your friend, that are going to benefit even when they could have made different choices and paid back the loans, but is making sure they have to pay everything back worth hampering the economy for years and helping people who couldn’t have made that same choice?

It matters to me because I am an individual! And if our economy is dependent on people spending on things they can’t afford, it’s got a whole host of other issues. I’m not going to put up a fight about this, I get all of the policy reasons it makes sense and voted for politicians who favor it. But a lot of the discourse I read, not here, is basically either you support this or you’re a horrible selfish person and I just don’t think that’s fair or accurate.

banana468 · November 2020

STARMOON44 said:

charlotte989875 said:

STARMOON44 said:

levioosa said:

charlotte989875 said:

I feel a lot differently about student loan debt than most of what has been said here, but here’s my general question; if two people graduated at the same time, with the same degree- one found a high paying job in their field, with a spouse who was also making a good wage and paid back their loan and the other couldn’t find a job, or had to take a lower paying job because they needed to care for kids/a spouse/a parent and couldn’t pay back their loan in the same period. Why does it matter to person 1 of person 2s loans are forgiven and theirs aren’t? You’re not harmed by that at all.

Same. My opinions about student loan debt are like a 180 from what’s been said here.

I graduated law school with 130k in debt and think about this a lot. I paid off my debt in 10 years. I was fortunate to have a job that allowed me to do that, but also I prioritized it and sacrificed. I drove a 15 year old car. I worked really hard at a job I didn’t like. I usually paid $1200 a month, so I haven’t been able to save up enough to buy a house. I have a friend who graduated with the same amount of debt who has always worked a job with the same salary as me. She’s made minimal progress on her loans- pays maybe $300 a month- and instead now owns a vacation house, and a townhouse, and quite a bit of expensive jewelry. It’s entirely possible any debt forgiveness plan would exclude her based on income, but I think this situation happens at lower income levels too. Why should person A, who worked really hard to pay off their loans last year, get nothing and person B, who didn’t prioritize their loans, get forgiveness?

But why does it matter to you what happens in someone else’s finances?

At the individual level I get why this is frustrating; you think you did things the “right” way while someone else is doing it the “wrong” way and they’re going to get loans forgiven and you paid them back. And if we just look at the individual level then we probably never change the system.

But look at it in the aggregate- at all the people who are prioritizing, and scrimping, and saving and also can’t afford a house or car or whatever. The impact on the economy of all of those people not spending on these big items, not just for 10 or 15 years but for the majority/all of their highly productive years. We’re all much worse off if there’s not enough spending to maintain our current economic system. And yes there may be some people, like your friend, that are going to benefit even when they could have made different choices and paid back the loans, but is making sure they have to pay everything back worth hampering the economy for years and helping people who couldn’t have made that same choice?

It matters to me because I am an individual! And if our economy is dependent on people spending on things they can’t afford, it’s got a whole host of other issues. I’m not going to put up a fight about this, I get all of the policy reasons it makes sense and voted for politicians who favor it. But a lot of the discourse I read, not here, is basically either you support this or you’re a horrible selfish person and I just don’t think that’s fair or accurate.

I feel like this is somewhat comparable to why we should be upset if we know someone who takes all the tax deductions possible because those are deductions that exist to help but they can also be exploited by those of means with accountants who know how to rig their accounts in favor or making the most and paying the least. We can be upset that one person does this because that one person is following a system to the letter but not the spirit in which it was intended.

kerbohl · November 2020

charlotte989875 said:

STARMOON44 said:

levioosa said:

charlotte989875 said:

I feel a lot differently about student loan debt than most of what has been said here, but here’s my general question; if two people graduated at the same time, with the same degree- one found a high paying job in their field, with a spouse who was also making a good wage and paid back their loan and the other couldn’t find a job, or had to take a lower paying job because they needed to care for kids/a spouse/a parent and couldn’t pay back their loan in the same period. Why does it matter to person 1 of person 2s loans are forgiven and theirs aren’t? You’re not harmed by that at all.

Same. My opinions about student loan debt are like a 180 from what’s been said here.

I graduated law school with 130k in debt and think about this a lot. I paid off my debt in 10 years. I was fortunate to have a job that allowed me to do that, but also I prioritized it and sacrificed. I drove a 15 year old car. I worked really hard at a job I didn’t like. I usually paid $1200 a month, so I haven’t been able to save up enough to buy a house. I have a friend who graduated with the same amount of debt who has always worked a job with the same salary as me. She’s made minimal progress on her loans- pays maybe $300 a month- and instead now owns a vacation house, and a townhouse, and quite a bit of expensive jewelry. It’s entirely possible any debt forgiveness plan would exclude her based on income, but I think this situation happens at lower income levels too. Why should person A, who worked really hard to pay off their loans last year, get nothing and person B, who didn’t prioritize their loans, get forgiveness?

But why does it matter to you what happens in someone else’s finances?

At the individual level I get why this is frustrating; you think you did things the “right” way while someone else is doing it the “wrong” way and they’re going to get loans forgiven and you paid them back. And if we just look at the individual level then we probably never change the system.

But look at it in the aggregate- at all the people who are prioritizing, and scrimping, and saving and also can’t afford a house or car or whatever. The impact on the economy of all of those people not spending on these big items, not just for 10 or 15 years but for the majority/all of their highly productive years. We’re all much worse off if there’s not enough spending to maintain our current economic system. And yes there may be some people, like your friend, that are going to benefit even when they could have made different choices and paid back the loans, but is making sure they have to pay everything back worth hampering the economy for years and helping people who couldn’t have made that same choice?

This is what scares me about the economy, really. The economy only thrives if people are buying stuff, and that has created this throw-away culture in which we are constantly consuming. I am not helping the economy too terribly much, because I have always bought second-hand if I could and avoid shopping. And I try to make my things last, probably longer than I should. I actively hate the Christmas movie "The Kranks" for that very reason - why does a movie exist that hates on people that decide not to have a consumer-driven Christmas?
Sorry, this is not really adding to the conversation, but I just don't get the whole "buy buy buy" mentality even though I am very aware of how vital it is.

charlotte989875 · November 2020

kerbohl said:

charlotte989875 said:

STARMOON44 said:

levioosa said:

charlotte989875 said:

I feel a lot differently about student loan debt than most of what has been said here, but here’s my general question; if two people graduated at the same time, with the same degree- one found a high paying job in their field, with a spouse who was also making a good wage and paid back their loan and the other couldn’t find a job, or had to take a lower paying job because they needed to care for kids/a spouse/a parent and couldn’t pay back their loan in the same period. Why does it matter to person 1 of person 2s loans are forgiven and theirs aren’t? You’re not harmed by that at all.

Same. My opinions about student loan debt are like a 180 from what’s been said here.

I graduated law school with 130k in debt and think about this a lot. I paid off my debt in 10 years. I was fortunate to have a job that allowed me to do that, but also I prioritized it and sacrificed. I drove a 15 year old car. I worked really hard at a job I didn’t like. I usually paid $1200 a month, so I haven’t been able to save up enough to buy a house. I have a friend who graduated with the same amount of debt who has always worked a job with the same salary as me. She’s made minimal progress on her loans- pays maybe $300 a month- and instead now owns a vacation house, and a townhouse, and quite a bit of expensive jewelry. It’s entirely possible any debt forgiveness plan would exclude her based on income, but I think this situation happens at lower income levels too. Why should person A, who worked really hard to pay off their loans last year, get nothing and person B, who didn’t prioritize their loans, get forgiveness?

But why does it matter to you what happens in someone else’s finances?

At the individual level I get why this is frustrating; you think you did things the “right” way while someone else is doing it the “wrong” way and they’re going to get loans forgiven and you paid them back. And if we just look at the individual level then we probably never change the system.

But look at it in the aggregate- at all the people who are prioritizing, and scrimping, and saving and also can’t afford a house or car or whatever. The impact on the economy of all of those people not spending on these big items, not just for 10 or 15 years but for the majority/all of their highly productive years. We’re all much worse off if there’s not enough spending to maintain our current economic system. And yes there may be some people, like your friend, that are going to benefit even when they could have made different choices and paid back the loans, but is making sure they have to pay everything back worth hampering the economy for years and helping people who couldn’t have made that same choice?

This is what scares me about the economy, really. The economy only thrives if people are buying stuff, and that has created this throw-away culture in which we are constantly consuming. I am not helping the economy too terribly much, because I have always bought second-hand if I could and avoid shopping. And I try to make my things last, probably longer than I should. I actively hate the Christmas movie "The Kranks" for that very reason - why does a movie exist that hates on people that decide not to have a consumer-driven Christmas?
Sorry, this is not really adding to the conversation, but I just don't get the whole "buy buy buy" mentality even though I am very aware of how vital it is.

This definitely scares me too and I also get a lot, especially baby stuff second hand.

But it’s the big things that worry me; people not buying houses or maintaining/updating them, not taking vacations to areas that depend on tourism, etc. than I am fast fashion/clothes or throw away items. Heck, most Americans can’t afford their healthcare or couldnt finance a major health issue if it happened. I’m not saying student loans are responsible for all of that but it is a major source of debt with no assets backing it. It’s a precarious situation in the US that we’re not properly addressing.

short+sassy · November 2020

STARMOON44 said:

charlotte989875 said:

STARMOON44 said:

levioosa said:

charlotte989875 said:

I feel a lot differently about student loan debt than most of what has been said here, but here’s my general question; if two people graduated at the same time, with the same degree- one found a high paying job in their field, with a spouse who was also making a good wage and paid back their loan and the other couldn’t find a job, or had to take a lower paying job because they needed to care for kids/a spouse/a parent and couldn’t pay back their loan in the same period. Why does it matter to person 1 of person 2s loans are forgiven and theirs aren’t? You’re not harmed by that at all.

Same. My opinions about student loan debt are like a 180 from what’s been said here.

I graduated law school with 130k in debt and think about this a lot. I paid off my debt in 10 years. I was fortunate to have a job that allowed me to do that, but also I prioritized it and sacrificed. I drove a 15 year old car. I worked really hard at a job I didn’t like. I usually paid $1200 a month, so I haven’t been able to save up enough to buy a house. I have a friend who graduated with the same amount of debt who has always worked a job with the same salary as me. She’s made minimal progress on her loans- pays maybe $300 a month- and instead now owns a vacation house, and a townhouse, and quite a bit of expensive jewelry. It’s entirely possible any debt forgiveness plan would exclude her based on income, but I think this situation happens at lower income levels too. Why should person A, who worked really hard to pay off their loans last year, get nothing and person B, who didn’t prioritize their loans, get forgiveness?

But why does it matter to you what happens in someone else’s finances?

At the individual level I get why this is frustrating; you think you did things the “right” way while someone else is doing it the “wrong” way and they’re going to get loans forgiven and you paid them back. And if we just look at the individual level then we probably never change the system.

But look at it in the aggregate- at all the people who are prioritizing, and scrimping, and saving and also can’t afford a house or car or whatever. The impact on the economy of all of those people not spending on these big items, not just for 10 or 15 years but for the majority/all of their highly productive years. We’re all much worse off if there’s not enough spending to maintain our current economic system. And yes there may be some people, like your friend, that are going to benefit even when they could have made different choices and paid back the loans, but is making sure they have to pay everything back worth hampering the economy for years and helping people who couldn’t have made that same choice?

It matters to me because I am an individual! And if our economy is dependent on people spending on things they can’t afford, it’s got a whole host of other issues. I’m not going to put up a fight about this, I get all of the policy reasons it makes sense and voted for politicians who favor it. But a lot of the discourse I read, not here, is basically either you support this or you’re a horrible selfish person and I just don’t think that’s fair or accurate.

Because everything costs money. It's not just "someone else's finances". It's my tax dollars going to pay for someone else's loans, that they took out willingly and with no expectation it would be forgiven in a windfall some day. I'm sure it would be an economic stimulus, at least temporarily, but at what cost?

"Forgiving student debt" or even defraying the cost of future post-HS education doesn't come out of nowhere. More money for "this", takes away money from "that". And, right now, there are more vital social programs that I would rather see most of those tax dollars going to. Healthcare. Affordable housing. Heck, K-12 education should be given more money first before student loan forgiveness. When K-12 is so piss poor in some areas that people graduate from HS without being able to do basic math or read well enough to fill out an application, then those children...usually from poverty stricken areas...have little chance for post-HS education, even it if it is 100% paid for. Plus, more money in some of these social programs also puts more money in the economy.

I'm speaking in general terms. I know I'm mashing together things that are paid for by different agencies and even federal vs. state/county/or city.

To add on to some points @banana468 made, I would LOVE, LOVE to see military spending cut way down to start paying more for things our country really needs. Including post-HS education financial help. But, even that, can't be done suddenly or in a vacuum. Because it would destroy military towns. It would put massive amounts of people out of work.

Another huge factor in the struggles the U.S. has is, overall, our citizens refuse to have their taxes raised. Look at some of the other countries we have been talking about and comparing, specifically in terms of healthcare and higher education. Their tax rates are much higher. Point blank, we do not live in a "puppies and rainbow" world where people can keep their lower income taxes and also have low-cost healthcare and higher education. Even for an entire country, it eventually boils down to income vs. expenses. And when the "expense/wants" side is heavier than the "income" side, choices need to be made.

In a way, that is not so different from the budgets and choices individuals make also. To use @STARMOON44's example, she prioritized living more frugally and paying off her student loans. While her friend in very similar financial circumstances, prioritized living more luxuriously over paying down her student loans. Neither of those choices are wrong, but they are different priorities.

short+sassy · November 2020

charlotte989875 said:

kerbohl said:

charlotte989875 said:

STARMOON44 said:

levioosa said:

charlotte989875 said:

I feel a lot differently about student loan debt than most of what has been said here, but here’s my general question; if two people graduated at the same time, with the same degree- one found a high paying job in their field, with a spouse who was also making a good wage and paid back their loan and the other couldn’t find a job, or had to take a lower paying job because they needed to care for kids/a spouse/a parent and couldn’t pay back their loan in the same period. Why does it matter to person 1 of person 2s loans are forgiven and theirs aren’t? You’re not harmed by that at all.

Same. My opinions about student loan debt are like a 180 from what’s been said here.

I graduated law school with 130k in debt and think about this a lot. I paid off my debt in 10 years. I was fortunate to have a job that allowed me to do that, but also I prioritized it and sacrificed. I drove a 15 year old car. I worked really hard at a job I didn’t like. I usually paid $1200 a month, so I haven’t been able to save up enough to buy a house. I have a friend who graduated with the same amount of debt who has always worked a job with the same salary as me. She’s made minimal progress on her loans- pays maybe $300 a month- and instead now owns a vacation house, and a townhouse, and quite a bit of expensive jewelry. It’s entirely possible any debt forgiveness plan would exclude her based on income, but I think this situation happens at lower income levels too. Why should person A, who worked really hard to pay off their loans last year, get nothing and person B, who didn’t prioritize their loans, get forgiveness?

But why does it matter to you what happens in someone else’s finances?

At the individual level I get why this is frustrating; you think you did things the “right” way while someone else is doing it the “wrong” way and they’re going to get loans forgiven and you paid them back. And if we just look at the individual level then we probably never change the system.

But look at it in the aggregate- at all the people who are prioritizing, and scrimping, and saving and also can’t afford a house or car or whatever. The impact on the economy of all of those people not spending on these big items, not just for 10 or 15 years but for the majority/all of their highly productive years. We’re all much worse off if there’s not enough spending to maintain our current economic system. And yes there may be some people, like your friend, that are going to benefit even when they could have made different choices and paid back the loans, but is making sure they have to pay everything back worth hampering the economy for years and helping people who couldn’t have made that same choice?

This is what scares me about the economy, really. The economy only thrives if people are buying stuff, and that has created this throw-away culture in which we are constantly consuming. I am not helping the economy too terribly much, because I have always bought second-hand if I could and avoid shopping. And I try to make my things last, probably longer than I should. I actively hate the Christmas movie "The Kranks" for that very reason - why does a movie exist that hates on people that decide not to have a consumer-driven Christmas?
Sorry, this is not really adding to the conversation, but I just don't get the whole "buy buy buy" mentality even though I am very aware of how vital it is.

This definitely scares me too and I also get a lot, especially baby stuff second hand.

But it’s the big things that worry me; people not buying houses or maintaining/updating them, not taking vacations to areas that depend on tourism, etc. than I am fast fashion/clothes or throw away items. Heck, most Americans can’t afford their healthcare or couldnt finance a major health issue if it happened. I’m not saying student loans are responsible for all of that but it is a major source of debt with no assets backing it. It’s a precarious situation in the US that we’re not properly addressing.

I definitely agree with your concerns, even if I...to an extent...disagree with the conclusion.

However, I mainly quoted this because, overall, there has been a housing shortage for a long time. Perhaps this isn't true for new construction and developments. I don't follow that side of real estate very much. But even right now during the pandemic, it is a strong seller's market in most areas. I know I don't have to tell this to @charlotte989875, lol. But with interest rates staying rock bottom, refinancing is off the chain right now. I know a few people who refinanced within the last three years and they are doing it again because they can save even more money, despite the fees. Granted, those aren't houses being bought/sold. But it is still economic forces working their magic. Freeing up money for individuals and keeping banks thriving.

Maintaining/updating has also been a brisk business for a long time. I'm speaking in generalities but, some construction businesses saw a brief drop in business at the beginning of the pandemic. But as fears started subsiding and people got stuck WFH all the time...and now they REALLY hate their wall colors and dated kitchens, lol...renovation work is going strong.

charlotte989875 · November 2020

short+sassy said:

STARMOON44 said:

charlotte989875 said:

STARMOON44 said:

levioosa said:

charlotte989875 said:

I feel a lot differently about student loan debt than most of what has been said here, but here’s my general question; if two people graduated at the same time, with the same degree- one found a high paying job in their field, with a spouse who was also making a good wage and paid back their loan and the other couldn’t find a job, or had to take a lower paying job because they needed to care for kids/a spouse/a parent and couldn’t pay back their loan in the same period. Why does it matter to person 1 of person 2s loans are forgiven and theirs aren’t? You’re not harmed by that at all.

Same. My opinions about student loan debt are like a 180 from what’s been said here.

I graduated law school with 130k in debt and think about this a lot. I paid off my debt in 10 years. I was fortunate to have a job that allowed me to do that, but also I prioritized it and sacrificed. I drove a 15 year old car. I worked really hard at a job I didn’t like. I usually paid $1200 a month, so I haven’t been able to save up enough to buy a house. I have a friend who graduated with the same amount of debt who has always worked a job with the same salary as me. She’s made minimal progress on her loans- pays maybe $300 a month- and instead now owns a vacation house, and a townhouse, and quite a bit of expensive jewelry. It’s entirely possible any debt forgiveness plan would exclude her based on income, but I think this situation happens at lower income levels too. Why should person A, who worked really hard to pay off their loans last year, get nothing and person B, who didn’t prioritize their loans, get forgiveness?

But why does it matter to you what happens in someone else’s finances?

At the individual level I get why this is frustrating; you think you did things the “right” way while someone else is doing it the “wrong” way and they’re going to get loans forgiven and you paid them back. And if we just look at the individual level then we probably never change the system.

But look at it in the aggregate- at all the people who are prioritizing, and scrimping, and saving and also can’t afford a house or car or whatever. The impact on the economy of all of those people not spending on these big items, not just for 10 or 15 years but for the majority/all of their highly productive years. We’re all much worse off if there’s not enough spending to maintain our current economic system. And yes there may be some people, like your friend, that are going to benefit even when they could have made different choices and paid back the loans, but is making sure they have to pay everything back worth hampering the economy for years and helping people who couldn’t have made that same choice?

It matters to me because I am an individual! And if our economy is dependent on people spending on things they can’t afford, it’s got a whole host of other issues. I’m not going to put up a fight about this, I get all of the policy reasons it makes sense and voted for politicians who favor it. But a lot of the discourse I read, not here, is basically either you support this or you’re a horrible selfish person and I just don’t think that’s fair or accurate.

Because everything costs money. It's not just "someone else's finances". It's my tax dollars going to pay for someone else's loans, that they took out willingly and with no expectation it would be forgiven in a windfall some day. I'm sure it would be an economic stimulus, at least temporarily, but at what cost?

"Forgiving student debt" or even defraying the cost of future post-HS education doesn't come out of nowhere. More money for "this", takes away money from "that". And, right now, there are more vital social programs that I would rather see most of those tax dollars going to. Healthcare. Affordable housing. Heck, K-12 education should be given more money first before student loan forgiveness. When K-12 is so piss poor in some areas that people graduate from HS without being able to do basic math or read well enough to fill out an application, then those children...usually from poverty stricken areas...have little chance for post-HS education, even it if it is 100% paid for. Plus, more money in some of these social programs also puts more money in the economy.

I'm speaking in general terms. I know I'm mashing together things that are paid for by different agencies and even federal vs. state/county/or city.

To add on to some points @banana468 made, I would LOVE, LOVE to see military spending cut way down to start paying more for things our country really needs. Including post-HS education financial help. But, even that, can't be done suddenly or in a vacuum. Because it would destroy military towns. It would put massive amounts of people out of work.

Another huge factor in the struggles the U.S. has is, overall, our citizens refuse to have their taxes raised. Look at some of the other countries we have been talking about and comparing, specifically in terms of healthcare and higher education. Their tax rates are much higher. Point blank, we do not live in a "puppies and rainbow" world where people can keep their lower income taxes and also have low-cost healthcare and higher education. Even for an entire country, it eventually boils down to income vs. expenses. And when the "expense/wants" side is heavier than the "income" side, choices need to be made.

In a way, that is not so different from the budgets and choices individuals make also. To use @STARMOON44's example, she prioritized living more frugally and paying off her student loans. While her friend in very similar financial circumstances, prioritized living more luxuriously over paying down her student loans. Neither of those choices are wrong, but they are different priorities.

Your tax dollars also go to subsidize people’s mortgages, pay for other people’s healthcare; things you already presumably pay for. I guess I don’t see why there is such resistance to loan forgiveness when tax dollars are already subsiding other people’s loans & paying for their healthcare. Things you also pay out of pocket for yourself.

I’m not a puppies & rainbow person I’m a “we collectively owe $1.5 Trillion in debt with little ability to pay & potential massive impacts to the economy either from nonpayment or by forgoing spending in productive segments of the economy”. I’m all for raising taxes if it means we can have basic needs like health care and education met.

charlotte989875 · November 2020

short+sassy said:

charlotte989875 said:

kerbohl said:

charlotte989875 said:

STARMOON44 said:

levioosa said:

charlotte989875 said:

I feel a lot differently about student loan debt than most of what has been said here, but here’s my general question; if two people graduated at the same time, with the same degree- one found a high paying job in their field, with a spouse who was also making a good wage and paid back their loan and the other couldn’t find a job, or had to take a lower paying job because they needed to care for kids/a spouse/a parent and couldn’t pay back their loan in the same period. Why does it matter to person 1 of person 2s loans are forgiven and theirs aren’t? You’re not harmed by that at all.

Same. My opinions about student loan debt are like a 180 from what’s been said here.

I graduated law school with 130k in debt and think about this a lot. I paid off my debt in 10 years. I was fortunate to have a job that allowed me to do that, but also I prioritized it and sacrificed. I drove a 15 year old car. I worked really hard at a job I didn’t like. I usually paid $1200 a month, so I haven’t been able to save up enough to buy a house. I have a friend who graduated with the same amount of debt who has always worked a job with the same salary as me. She’s made minimal progress on her loans- pays maybe $300 a month- and instead now owns a vacation house, and a townhouse, and quite a bit of expensive jewelry. It’s entirely possible any debt forgiveness plan would exclude her based on income, but I think this situation happens at lower income levels too. Why should person A, who worked really hard to pay off their loans last year, get nothing and person B, who didn’t prioritize their loans, get forgiveness?

But why does it matter to you what happens in someone else’s finances?

At the individual level I get why this is frustrating; you think you did things the “right” way while someone else is doing it the “wrong” way and they’re going to get loans forgiven and you paid them back. And if we just look at the individual level then we probably never change the system.

But look at it in the aggregate- at all the people who are prioritizing, and scrimping, and saving and also can’t afford a house or car or whatever. The impact on the economy of all of those people not spending on these big items, not just for 10 or 15 years but for the majority/all of their highly productive years. We’re all much worse off if there’s not enough spending to maintain our current economic system. And yes there may be some people, like your friend, that are going to benefit even when they could have made different choices and paid back the loans, but is making sure they have to pay everything back worth hampering the economy for years and helping people who couldn’t have made that same choice?

This is what scares me about the economy, really. The economy only thrives if people are buying stuff, and that has created this throw-away culture in which we are constantly consuming. I am not helping the economy too terribly much, because I have always bought second-hand if I could and avoid shopping. And I try to make my things last, probably longer than I should. I actively hate the Christmas movie "The Kranks" for that very reason - why does a movie exist that hates on people that decide not to have a consumer-driven Christmas?
Sorry, this is not really adding to the conversation, but I just don't get the whole "buy buy buy" mentality even though I am very aware of how vital it is.

This definitely scares me too and I also get a lot, especially baby stuff second hand.

But it’s the big things that worry me; people not buying houses or maintaining/updating them, not taking vacations to areas that depend on tourism, etc. than I am fast fashion/clothes or throw away items. Heck, most Americans can’t afford their healthcare or couldnt finance a major health issue if it happened. I’m not saying student loans are responsible for all of that but it is a major source of debt with no assets backing it. It’s a precarious situation in the US that we’re not properly addressing.

I definitely agree with your concerns, even if I...to an extent...disagree with the conclusion.

However, I mainly quoted this because, overall, there has been a housing shortage for a long time. Perhaps this isn't true for new construction and developments. I don't follow that side of real estate very much. But even right now during the pandemic, it is a strong seller's market in most areas. I know I don't have to tell this to @charlotte989875, lol. But with interest rates staying rock bottom, refinancing is off the chain right now. I know a few people who refinanced within the last three years and they are doing it again because they can save even more money, despite the fees. Granted, those aren't houses being bought/sold. But it is still economic forces working their magic. Freeing up money for individuals and keeping banks thriving.

Maintaining/updating has also been a brisk business for a long time. I'm speaking in generalities but, some construction businesses saw a brief drop in business at the beginning of the pandemic. But as fears started subsiding and people got stuck WFH all the time...and now they REALLY hate their wall colors and dated kitchens, lol...renovation work is going strong.

I’m concerned here for 2 reasons; 1) housing markets are already tight, prioritizing highly liquid and/or “well qualified buyers” pushing people at lower incomes/ with some loans out of many areas. Homeownership is key to building wealth in this country and as things become even more competitive we make it far harder for people who don’t already have wealth to do the things to accumulate it. And 2) yes renovations is doing well now- but again in the short-run, what are the long-term consequences of people forgoing or putting off investments into their homes? This one I’m less sure of honestly but long-term these big purchases are at risk (or getting a loan or HELOC to do this work) if we maintain high debt burdens.

Generally speaking, there’s a reason student loans were one of the first payments to be suspended during the pandemic- it’s the second largest debt in the US and it’s not backed by any collateral. Yes, nonpayment will screw up your credit, follow you through bankruptcy, garnish your wages; but no one can come and take anything from you in order to get the loan repaid. This is a huge problem in the economy- and one there is not a good solution for.

mrsconn23 · November 2020

One more thing, I swear. I was listening to a podcast yesterday and they were talking about how Biden is hoping Ossoff and Warnock win and the senate is D because he'd rather work on legislation for overhauling student loans/cost of higher ed. It's more secure to pass things into law rather than rely on executive action/order.

Also, Biden only wants to cancel up to the first 10k. The 50k number floating around is what the more progressive advisers are proposing. Furthermore, student loan debt is one of the easiest things on a financial scale he can go after without getting congress involved if the deranged turtle is still in charge.

knottie522bfe6205f2d9a5 · December 2020

I recommend reading the novel Two Kinds about relationships and building respectful relationships. You must define your role in family, work, career. The main nuance is joint positioning.

Fri-yay!

Re: Fri-yay!

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