Beside the point, but I want to know who LW is and what happened.

mrsconn23 · July 2021

Dear Prudence,

I survived a horrible thing, and as a result have some pretty severe PTSD. I have a service dog that accompanies me, and we have been partnered for about six years. I’m able to go to work, the grocery store, etc., and he has made a huge difference in my life. I’ve also done a lot of therapy as well. Recently I made the decision to start dating again. What I survived is easy to find if you know my full name and where I used to live. I’m using an online dating app, which feels safe, and I am careful about where I meet people, etc. So far, it seems to be going well. Except for the fact that I have the dog with me. I’m not sure how to introduce that fact, and have gotten various responses, most of which seem to be, “see ya.” He’s in my pictures on the app, and I say he goes everywhere with me. If I say I survived something, the conversation becomes about that, and I am trying not to let that define me. I really could use some help navigating this! I’m able to talk about what happened, but it’s not first date material.

— Love Me and My Dog

banana468 · July 2021

"I have a therapy dog due to PTSD. It's from something that makes me uncomfortable that I prefer not to discuss and the dog has been a tremendous help going with me wherever I go."

STARMOON44 · July 2021

Exactly what @banana468 said in a message before the 1st date.

CharmedPam · July 2021

Right! What @banana468 said is perfect and anyone who disagrees isn’t worth dating anyway

short+sassy · July 2021

I'm wondering if some of the pushback the LW is receiving, is because they are showing up on a date with their dog, but has not given their date any forewarning that will be happening.

That would make a VERY BAD impression on me, on a first date. Not because I'd mind dating someone with ESA. Or would be intrusive about why they had one. But because I'm not expecting it and it's an appallingly selfish thing to do. It's super sh***y to unexpectedly spring a dog on someone. They talk about their own PTSD, right? For all they know, their date was mauled by dogs and is now terrified of them. Or is allergic to dogs.

Granted, someone in either of those two categories shouldn't have made a date with the LW to begin with, since the dog is in the profile pic and talked about in their bio. But then, it was also my experience when I was online dating that some people just look at a pic and don't bother reading the bio.

banana468 · July 2021

Agreed - tell the dates before they show up. The warning may head off the other questions.

climbingsingle · July 2021

Be happy the people that were not OK with it removed themselves from the equation. And agreed that a simply "I have a service dog for PTSD" should be all that's needed. You can always steer the conversation away from it if you're not ready.

MyNameIsNot · July 2021

A service dog for PTSD is not an emotional support animal. It is a service animal. These are two different things. LW does not need to give warning or ask for permission to bring the dog.

I'd just say "he's a service dog that helps me with some things, but I'd rather not get into all of that today. You mentioned travel in your profile, are you planning anything interesting post-pandemic?"

STARMOON44 · July 2021

MyNameIsNot said:

A service dog for PTSD is not an emotional support animal. It is a service animal. These are two different things. LW does not need to give warning or ask for permission to bring the dog.

I'd just say "he's a service dog that helps me with some things, but I'd rather not get into all of that today. You mentioned travel in your profile, are you planning anything interesting post-pandemic?"

I don’t think she needs permission, but if she wants a second date I think mentioning it ahead of time makes sense.

charlotte989875 · July 2021

short+sassy said:

I'm wondering if some of the pushback the LW is receiving, is because they are showing up on a date with their dog, but has not given their date any forewarning that will be happening.

That would make a VERY BAD impression on me, on a first date. Not because I'd mind dating someone with ESA. Or would be intrusive about why they had one. But because I'm not expecting it and it's an appallingly selfish thing to do. It's super sh***y to unexpectedly spring a dog on someone. They talk about their own PTSD, right? For all they know, their date was mauled by dogs and is now terrified of them. Or is allergic to dogs.

Granted, someone in either of those two categories shouldn't have made a date with the LW to begin with, since the dog is in the profile pic and talked about in their bio. But then, it was also my experience when I was online dating that some people just look at a pic and don't bother reading the bio.

Eh, I pretty strongly disagree- would other accommodations (needing an elevator instead or stairs, a hearing aid, brail menu) need to be communicated ahead of time and be considered selfish? Needing to use whatever accommodations you do is not selfish and I think that’s part of what contributes to stigma around disability or mental illness.

banana468 · July 2021

charlotte989875 said:

short+sassy said:

I'm wondering if some of the pushback the LW is receiving, is because they are showing up on a date with their dog, but has not given their date any forewarning that will be happening.

That would make a VERY BAD impression on me, on a first date. Not because I'd mind dating someone with ESA. Or would be intrusive about why they had one. But because I'm not expecting it and it's an appallingly selfish thing to do. It's super sh***y to unexpectedly spring a dog on someone. They talk about their own PTSD, right? For all they know, their date was mauled by dogs and is now terrified of them. Or is allergic to dogs.

Granted, someone in either of those two categories shouldn't have made a date with the LW to begin with, since the dog is in the profile pic and talked about in their bio. But then, it was also my experience when I was online dating that some people just look at a pic and don't bother reading the bio.

Eh, I pretty strongly disagree- would other accommodations (needing an elevator instead or stairs, a hearing aid, brail menu) need to be communicated ahead of time and be considered selfish? Needing to use whatever accommodations you do is not selfish and I think that’s part of what contributes to stigma around disability or mental illness.

There's a difference here though. Dogs are great and trained dogs are helping those with PTSD, blindness and seizures. That said, you can also find tons of people who can tell you about their own event or the event of a close family member that involved a dog and where the dog's behavior may have been an attack. On another board I'm on multiple local moms have spoken about dogs that have attacked their kids and the medical care required. My own husband has a scar not from a dog that attacked him but he got tangled up in the dog's leash and was pulled to a rock and fell on his face. He has a scar in his eyebrow from it. That he wears glasses helps to conceal it.

Other accommodations for an issue do not involve a living animal. That's also not to mention the number of allergies that people have. Many therapy dogs are not hypoallergenic and a person's actual medical response is also something that needs to be considered. Again, I'm married to someone who is allergic to cats and dogs. If someone announced that they were going to meet us anywhere inside and there was a dog present we would want the warning so DH can either take more allergy meds or suggest something outside.

In this situation I don't know that the OP needs permission but mentioning it ahead of time is giving anyone who may have their own issues the opportunity to medicate or decline if the dogs are a concern.

short+sassy · July 2021

charlotte989875 said:

short+sassy said:

I'm wondering if some of the pushback the LW is receiving, is because they are showing up on a date with their dog, but has not given their date any forewarning that will be happening.

That would make a VERY BAD impression on me, on a first date. Not because I'd mind dating someone with ESA. Or would be intrusive about why they had one. But because I'm not expecting it and it's an appallingly selfish thing to do. It's super sh***y to unexpectedly spring a dog on someone. They talk about their own PTSD, right? For all they know, their date was mauled by dogs and is now terrified of them. Or is allergic to dogs.

Granted, someone in either of those two categories shouldn't have made a date with the LW to begin with, since the dog is in the profile pic and talked about in their bio. But then, it was also my experience when I was online dating that some people just look at a pic and don't bother reading the bio.

Eh, I pretty strongly disagree- would other accommodations (needing an elevator instead or stairs, a hearing aid, brail menu) need to be communicated ahead of time and be considered selfish? Needing to use whatever accommodations you do is not selfish and I think that’s part of what contributes to stigma around disability or mental illness.

Those things don't potentially affect the health and/or emotional welfare of other people. But a live animal can, just like in the very possible examples I gave.

One person's disability doesn't get to run roughshod over someone else's. That's why it is selfish and thoughtless to not clue someone in that a dog will be accompanying them. Plus, there's no reason not to mention it ahead of time. Because it will be obvious enough as soon as the LW shows up for a date. So why even potentially traumatize someone else or kick off an allergy attack.

But even in the non-animal disability examples, it probably is a good idea for someone to disclose an obvious disability before meeting someone. No, they aren't obligated to and I wouldn't think they are a jerk if they choose not to. But there are some people who wouldn't want to date someone with mobility issues or a particular disability. And it's better, less hurtful, and less time consuming to weed those people out before even meeting them.

MyNameIsNot · July 2021

STARMOON44 said:

MyNameIsNot said:

A service dog for PTSD is not an emotional support animal. It is a service animal. These are two different things. LW does not need to give warning or ask for permission to bring the dog.

I'd just say "he's a service dog that helps me with some things, but I'd rather not get into all of that today. You mentioned travel in your profile, are you planning anything interesting post-pandemic?"

I don’t think she needs permission, but if she wants a second date I think mentioning it ahead of time makes sense.

She literally tells them that he's coming. She doesn't need to ask permission.

” He’s in my pictures on the app, and I say he goes everywhere with me. If"

charlotte989875 · July 2021

MyNameIsNot said:

STARMOON44 said:

MyNameIsNot said:

A service dog for PTSD is not an emotional support animal. It is a service animal. These are two different things. LW does not need to give warning or ask for permission to bring the dog.

I'd just say "he's a service dog that helps me with some things, but I'd rather not get into all of that today. You mentioned travel in your profile, are you planning anything interesting post-pandemic?"

I don’t think she needs permission, but if she wants a second date I think mentioning it ahead of time makes sense.

She literally tells them that he's coming. She doesn't need to ask permission.

” He’s in my pictures on the app, and I say he goes everywhere with me. If"

This! She’s saying upfront he goes with her, why does she need to make it more explicit than that?

I think it’s pretty ableist to say that giving even more warning/ asking for permission to bring their medically-necessary dog with them is required.

banana468 · July 2021

MyNameIsNot said:

STARMOON44 said:

MyNameIsNot said:

A service dog for PTSD is not an emotional support animal. It is a service animal. These are two different things. LW does not need to give warning or ask for permission to bring the dog.

I'd just say "he's a service dog that helps me with some things, but I'd rather not get into all of that today. You mentioned travel in your profile, are you planning anything interesting post-pandemic?"

I don’t think she needs permission, but if she wants a second date I think mentioning it ahead of time makes sense.

She literally tells them that he's coming. She doesn't need to ask permission.

” He’s in my pictures on the app, and I say he goes everywhere with me. If"

Unfortunately there are plenty of people who say that their dogs go everywhere with them because they don't "get" that dogs aren't welcome everywhere. IMO, adding something about what the dog does helps. Saying, "Here's my dog Sparky and he goes everywhere with me," is really vague and I wonder how many people consider the statement to be so literal that he really does go EVERYWHERE vs. "When I'm outside so is the dog."

banana468 · July 2021

charlotte989875 said:

MyNameIsNot said:

STARMOON44 said:

MyNameIsNot said:

A service dog for PTSD is not an emotional support animal. It is a service animal. These are two different things. LW does not need to give warning or ask for permission to bring the dog.

I'd just say "he's a service dog that helps me with some things, but I'd rather not get into all of that today. You mentioned travel in your profile, are you planning anything interesting post-pandemic?"

I don’t think she needs permission, but if she wants a second date I think mentioning it ahead of time makes sense.

She literally tells them that he's coming. She doesn't need to ask permission.

” He’s in my pictures on the app, and I say he goes everywhere with me. If"

This! She’s saying upfront he goes with her, why does she need to make it more explicit than that?

I think it’s pretty ableist to say that giving even more warning/ asking for permission to bring their medically-necessary dog with them is required.

I disagree. If we didn't have a slew of abusers of systems who didn't bring Fifi the Louis Vuitton bag dogs with them everywhere and additional people who didn't think the rules didn't apply to them I would agree.

But this is slightly different and the LW's one sentence while actually clear is also vague enough that I think people can shrug it off.

AND because there are so many people who think that the rules do not apply to them and routinely break them, there's then the possibility that any meetings / dates can start with a date wondering if the LW is someone who thinks that the rules don't apply to LW when the reality is that the LW is following rules and they need this animal.

This isn't permission - it's clarifying a short sentence that can be misinterpreted.

short+sassy · July 2021

banana468 said:

MyNameIsNot said:

STARMOON44 said:

MyNameIsNot said:

A service dog for PTSD is not an emotional support animal. It is a service animal. These are two different things. LW does not need to give warning or ask for permission to bring the dog.

I'd just say "he's a service dog that helps me with some things, but I'd rather not get into all of that today. You mentioned travel in your profile, are you planning anything interesting post-pandemic?"

I don’t think she needs permission, but if she wants a second date I think mentioning it ahead of time makes sense.

She literally tells them that he's coming. She doesn't need to ask permission.

” He’s in my pictures on the app, and I say he goes everywhere with me. If"

Unfortunately there are plenty of people who say that their dogs go everywhere with them because they don't "get" that dogs aren't welcome everywhere. IMO, adding something about what the dog does helps. Saying, "Here's my dog Sparky and he goes everywhere with me," is really vague and I wonder how many people consider the statement to be so literal that he really does go EVERYWHERE vs. "When I'm outside so is the dog."

I read that statement the same way. That it is more talking about how close the LW is to their dog and not that it is literally true. It's a common phrase people will say about their pets. Pets, not service animals, and nor is it literally true for them.

That's also assuming a potential match even read their bio anyway. From my own online dating experience, I'd guess about 30-50% of people don't.

It was super, super annoying when someone would reply with either, "I like your pic, tell me more about yourself (my bio was already 10-12 sentences)." Yet they didn't have a bio and/or didn't tell me anything about them. Or they asked me a question(s) that I had already answered in my bio.

I guess on the plus side, it made it easier to eliminate men that were too lazy to read my bio and/or write a few sentences, so I only wasted 20-30 seconds of my time instead of a couple hours.

The bottom line is, my impression from the letter is that the people the LW met on dates had no idea a dog was going to be there. So, however it's happening, that message is NOT getting across and it needs to be. Lots of people are terrified of dogs. Some of them because they were attacked by dog(s). Some people are allergic to dogs. It is extremely important and very pertinent information for people to know they will be around a dog, when they otherwise wouldn't expect to be.

I'm also not saying the LW needs to ask permission, so I hope that wasn't the impression I gave. I'm saying the LW needs make sure people know a dog will be there so that person has the option to back out, if they can't be near a dog. Because it doesn't sound like the dates are picking up that information from the LW's profile, even if arguably they should have.

--------------------------

Here is a real life example of people who are near and dear to my heart and are terrified of dogs for very good reasons...

Last year, in two separate incidents, my H and one of his friends were attacked by a pack of dogs. My H was knocked to the ground by two pit bulls. He was fortunate to have not been bitten, but that is only because there were other adults around who were able to quickly shoo the dogs away. Now my H is terrified of pit bulls and also nervous around large breed dogs. We used to enjoy watching the show Pitbulls and Parolees together. Now he can't even watch pitbulls on tv, without having panicked feelings, so I'm careful to watch the show when he isn't around.

His friend was not so "lucky". He was attacked by the same two dogs, plus a third one. Because the SPCA and police are worthless POS in my city and didn't take the dogs away from their owner after they had attacked my H. Our friend was bitten multiple times before a neighbor heard him screaming. Needless to say, he's terrified of most large/medium sized dogs. And the SPCA and police still didn't do jack s**t. Because apparently two attacks over one week's time is NBD. They were literally attack dogs to protect the neighbor's illegal "chop shop", but he let them out to roam the neighborhood all the time.

Oh! But when a dog bit Gayle Benson's (Saints owner) dog, the police were falling all over themselves to capture that "evil" dog. Didn't bite a person, mind you. Bit another dog. It was swiftly removed from it's owner and euthanized. I hate this corrupt city, so much sometimes.

If my H were single, he would never date someone who had a large breed dog and would have texted his date "Nope, sorry. Can't deal with your dog." from outside the establishment if he had shown up and there was a "surprise" dog that he was afraid of. Same with his friend. It's for reasons like this as to why it's important the LW's dates absolutely know a dog is going to be there.

And those are two people whose stories I know. Off the top of my head, I know three other people that are terrified of dogs, though I don't know why. One of them was a former neighbor who was even terrified of my own 22 lb. Boston Terrier mix and friendliest dog ever, Izzy. Anytime I was taking her out the front door, either to go on a walk or hang out on the front porch, I would check to make sure he wasn't outside.

kerbohl · July 2021

Dog phobia here ... bad experience with a certain breed, and it took me years to get to the place where I am where I don't have panic attacks looking at pictures of that particular breed. I was out with family and saw one a few weeks ago, and honestly when I think back about that day all I think about is not the fun we had but the five minutes where we were in close proximity to it. I'm fine with all other dogs, love big dogs .... cannot be around this one breed.
That being said .... if I know someone owns that breed, I'm not dating them, I'm not being friends with them, I'm not associating with that. Bit drastic, but I'm out if it's even in your profile. If you spring one on me without me knowing, that's just nasty. Just a quick heads up "Just so you know, my dog will be on the date" would go a long way. It doesn't matter if it's the friendliest service dog there is, I will see it and remember the ones I've encountered.

charlotte989875 · July 2021

If someone is that terrified of dogs I question why they would go on a date with someone who has a dog in their picture and a line in their profile about the dog that goes everywhere with them. If someone has an extreme phobia of dogs isn’t it on them to read what the LE is actually putting in their bio.

Suggesting someone to explain why they have a service dog is saying they need to disclose a mental health or medical concern to someone before they even meet in person. Would we expect anyone else to do this?

banana468 · July 2021

charlotte989875 said:

If someone is that terrified of dogs I question why they would go on a date with someone who has a dog in their picture and a line in their profile about the dog that goes everywhere with them. If someone has an extreme phobia of dogs isn’t it on them to read what the LE is actually putting in their bio.

Suggesting someone to explain why they have a service dog is saying they need to disclose a mental health or medical concern to someone before they even meet in person. Would we expect anyone else to do this?

Again, I'll say that to the "everywhere" comment that I think people will read the one sentence and not understand its literal meaning.

To the bold, one of my H's friends is a paraplegic. I would absolutely want to know if I'm going on a date with someone when there may be problems simply with the restaurant I pick because he cannot get up the stairs. I would expect to know that before I showed up.

climbingsingle · July 2021

If I had a phobia that intense of a dog, I would never go on a date with a person that had a dog they clearly owned in their pictures.

short+sassy · July 2021

charlotte989875 said:

If someone is that terrified of dogs I question why they would go on a date with someone who has a dog in their picture and a line in their profile about the dog that goes everywhere with them. If someone has an extreme phobia of dogs isn’t it on them to read what the LE is actually putting in their bio.

Suggesting someone to explain why they have a service dog is saying they need to disclose a mental health or medical concern to someone before they even meet in person. Would we expect anyone else to do this?

I've never said the LW needs to explain why they have a service dog. They don't even need to say it's a service dog. They just need to make sure the people they are meeting know that a dog will be there, because dogs for a variety of reasons can be a major problem for some.

I agree people should be smarter and maybe ask those questions if they see a dog in the LW's profile pic. But they aren't. People can be shockingly obtuse, even with things right in front of their face.

Quite frankly, the LW could tell someone a dog will be accompanying them and still have that person show up surprised and confused. That's how bad it can be.

Here's an exchange from a first date from someone I met online, back in the day:

Him: "I thought you had short hair."
Me: "No, my hair has always been long. Sometimes I wear it up. (Think about it for a sec), but yeah, it's long in my profile pic also."
Him (perusing and thinking about it): "I think you'd look better with short hair."
Me (picking my mouth up off the ground): "I love my hair. I like it long and it's always been long."

That is how unobservant some people are. Needless to say, I did not go out with him again. But just for the rich icing on top. He contacted me again about 6 months later, but like he was brand new. I could tell he didn't remember we'd already chatted and had even met. I reminded him. Told him where we'd gone, etc. Then he remembered "Oh yeah! I'm sorry, you do look familiar and I should have realized." And, I swear, the next thing he chatted was, "Wasn't your hair shorter though? Are you growing it out?" OMG, I almost fell out of my chair dying of laughter. I didn't even get into what a memorable AH he was over my hair. I just replied back...almost like deja vu..."Nope, my hair has always been long."

Ironically, it's even worse with my rental vacancy ads. Where people do have a black and white list of criteria they are looking for. But will still ask me questions or even come to showings, even when it is in the title and/or the pic that something about the property is a deal breaker for them.

Like, "How many bedrooms is this?" Me: "It's two." Them: "Oh, okay! I'm looking for a 3-bedroom." The number of bedrooms is literally in the title. Plus in the main info those websites display. Plus in the description.

Or they come to the showing and don't realize it's a duplex or it doesn't have a garage. Both of these things are super obvious in the first, main pic. And when it's a duplex, I also mention that in the ad and usually which/how many walls are shared.

The other thing that most people don't realize or think about...and I forget this a lot also...is how many adults are illiterate or only literate at the lowest proficiency level. In the US, it's about 20-23% in one of those categories. Those are people who might have trouble understanding even basic information, when it is written. Which, unfortunately, applies to almost everything online.

banana468 · July 2021

@short+sassy I used to work retail in HS. One of the signs I remember would say, "19.99 and up". People would bring things to the register and INSIST that they saw a sign indicating that the prices had to be well under $20.

Clearly the LW is saying that people are surprised by the dog. So whether or not it's a fear, surprise or simple dislike it appears that the one sentence they write is not sufficient for getting the point across.

short+sassy · July 2021

banana468 said:

@short+sassy I used to work retail in HS. One of the signs I remember would say, "19.99 and up". People would bring things to the register and INSIST that they saw a sign indicating that the prices had to be well under $20.

Clearly the LW is saying that people are surprised by the dog. So whether or not it's a fear, surprise or simple dislike it appears that the one sentence they write is not sufficient for getting the point across.

A sign like that might confuse me also, lmao. Only because they are usually the other way around, ie $19.99 and under.

But then, I usually look at the actual price tag because it isn't unusual for clothes to accidentally be put back into the wrong place.

Beside the point, but I want to know who LW is and what happened.

Re: Beside the point, but I want to know who LW is and what happened.

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